Wednesday, January 22, 2014

Ice Dance Analysis Blogspot

I wanted to take a post and link to Ice Dance Analyst Blogspot- and thank you VERY much to those in the comments below who first linked to it and highlighted what this terrific blog is pointing out - right in front of our faces is evidence that Davis White have repeatedly been credited for key points missed by Meryl. If she's on a flat she gets credit for the correct edge. Other teams do not. The authors also have a twitter:

@icedanceanalyst

It's absolutely unbelieveable that sportswriters and skating commentators engage in NO analysis of the actual skating in ice dance in any way that's relevant to the rules by which this discipline purports to be judged. NONE. This season we've been buried under an avalanche of bullshit about momentum, personality, theme, acting, costuming, work ethic, 110%, "tight" "loose" - chemistry - and nothing about the skating. This season is of course the season which will culminate in Davis & White winning the gold in Sochi - so OF COURSE.

Ice dance fans are treated with contempt by their sport. If they weren't, Virtue and Moir's reality show would be impossible, Davis and White's bogus scoring would be impossible. I don't think these things are unconnected. The fans of the sport are kept uninformed. The fans of the sport are treated like easy marks. Even when the fans push BACK, the sport then uses its journalist/groupie cadre to reiterate bullshit about fans - ubers, shippers, romantics, rubes who can't respond to anything but in your face non-skating showmanship, dreamers - we're anything they say we are, except informed observers. They mutually enable the continuation of a corrupt and self-serving status quo.

The "journalists" who cover the sport - even those who have covered it for decades - don't know anything about it. I'd challenge, for example, Christine Brennan or E.M. Swift to watch a skating program and distinguish one edge from another, one jump from another, understand what run of blade means, understand what directional variation and changes of hold means, understand what skating into and out of an element means - understand anything whatsoever about figure skating. They've covered it for years, and have never felt this to be important. They also hobnob with figure skating notables who comprise their sources, and yet with all the ways people "inside" figure skating have chewed the fat with these two "journalists", and with countless other skating "journalists", a rudimentary understanding of the basics of figure skating has never been relevant to those conversations.

There is no accountability in this sport. This is NOT a sport. It's absolutely shameful that the only places where ice dance is analyzed, where the rules are referenced (the rules, not the protocols) and where scoring is critiqued are places created by FANS. Fans - not sportswriters - go to the videotape for replay and gifs and slow mo, then go to the rulebook to see if what was executed matches how it was scored. This exercise is basic to ALL sports and is nonexistent in the coverage of figure skating even by those who make their living in figure skating.

Meantime these same fans are continually dumped on coming and going - by those who cover the sport, and by the skaters themselves. There is a huge resistance to having an informed public.

60 comments:

  1. Sadly, there will be no pushback D/W "win" their bullshit gold, because all the commmenators and media have bought into the hype, that they had a part in creating. Sad, sad, sad.

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    1. They haven't bought into it, they're just reciting it. There is no independent judgment because those who cover the sport don't know anything about it.

      In an earlier discussion someone in the comments section noted that ice dance "journalism" is the softest gig on the planet. Rosie DiManno apparently begs for the assignments. The woman was flown to Nice on her paper's dime and spends a week drinking and gossiping, then she writes about whatever the hell she wants - she can make it up. She can lie. She can work out her obsession with somebody or something. Who'd want to change that? I don't think the "journalists" who cover skating want to actually work.

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    2. A point I tried to make in the post is fans DO push back, but then the "skating journalists" trash fans in their articles. Belittle and patronize and misinform. There is no checks and balances. Many other sports have different levels of media covering them that serve as a balance check - figure skating has ignorance at every level and no mainstream media looking at it whatsoever. Fans are totally demeaned because it serves the interests of this "sport" and perpetuates the status quo.

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    3. So there's not a SINGLE redeeming professionally-perceived and credentialed outlet in skating, or are you focusing exclusively on traditional newspaper and broadcast-based media?

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    4. I am comparing the coverage of figure skating to the coverage of other sports. Those who write about figure skating from an informed perspective do so only because they choose to do so - they don't HAVE to do so because they could write nonsense and it would make no difference. There is no accountability when it comes to writing about figure skating. And the biggest "names"in figure skating journalism don't inform the public because they're not informed themselves.

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    5. "It's absolutely shameful that the only places where ice dance is analyzed, where the rules are referenced (the rules, not the protocols) and where scoring is critiqued are places created by FANS."

      I have noticed that fans are pushing back more since you started doing in-depth coverage of the skating. Your blog has been cited numerous times on FSU and most of the good ice dance discussion happens here where not only are people are not castigated for analyzing the skating--they are actually encouraged to do so. Some people do this well on FSU when they are discussing other teams, but they avoid criticism of DW. That is one of the reasons I think these fan-created spaces are essential to the well-being of the sport. This kind of discussion has to take place and no team should be off limits.

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  2. Someone has come to DW's defense in the comments, but in the gifs they linked, it still looks like Meryl is on a flat or barely an inside edge. That does nothing to disprove what the blog was pointing out. What do you think, OC?

    "* Unfortunately BlogSpot doesn't let me upload images, so just copy & paste the links in your browser to view the (slightly higher quality, I think) images I've provided below.

    First I want to say that the video we're using to "analyze" these patterns is *really bad video* shot from angles that are basically useless. So I'm kind of baffled as to how anyone can be that sure of anything but the most egregious of errors based on the above (and following, to be fair) evidence. Hopefully people realize that tech callers are using much better, closer video of the skaters to make these calls, so I highly doubt we're doing a better job of it here in these comments than they are.

    But based on the aforementioned imperfect evidence, I disagree about Meryl Davis's KP1 and KP3 for the second Finnstep sequence.

    For KP1 you say that Meryl's edge was "a little flat," and that she "leans to produce the inside edge" aided by the movement of her free leg "back and to the right." I see how that movement helps her lean into the edge, but IMO she was always on an inside edge.

    http://i43.tinypic.com/2emocuc.gif

    As you can see in this gif, I have not included the "back and to the right" leg movement at all, only the moment she puts her skate down, and IMO she is in fact on an inside edge. This is a bad angle, but the way the bottom of her boot is visible leads me to believe it is tilted towards us and that D/W ticked off this key point fairly.

    http://i44.tinypic.com/2corkoz.jpg

    Not to belabor the point, but here are screencaps of the moment(s) Meryl places her blade on the ice. I'm working off a slightly different video than you are, so I couldn't get the exact frame, but the bottom two screencaps are milliseconds before and after the frame you've posted. My caps are higher quality, and I think it's easier to see that we're looking not just at the side but also the bottom of Meryl's boot because she is in fact on an inside edge.

    The third key point is at a much worse angle. The tip of the foot we're looking at is blocked by Meryl's other skate, and you can't even see Charlie place his foot down. This is decidedly not the angle to examine this key point from.

    http://i42.tinypic.com/1182byf.gif

    The screencap you posted does look like Meryl is on a flat, but when I look at her movement as a whole, you can tell by the tilt of her boot that she's preparing to place her blade down with a slight outside edge, and it certainly looks like a back outside edge to me. I think the judges are probably reviewing the skater's movements as a whole from the correct angle -- where it would be easy to tell whether or not she was on the correct edge -- and not at frames that capture a millesecond of time. And it's worth pointing out that even using a higher quality video than you must be working off of, it's difficult for me to tell exactly in what frame(s) Meryl's skate touches the ice.

    Anyway, that's all I have to say."

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    1. In the first url it looks like she's flat and then leans in. At least in the gif there appears to be a change of lean/angle.

      In the third gif she also appears to go flat.

      The angle of the boot in space means nothing when it's Meryl. Meryl often "poses" an angle even when she's not putting any weight on her skate or even when she doesn't use an edge on the ice. I believe there was a post some time back of her exiting a lift "showing" an angle on her boot in the air. It was an airborne edge "pose." As the exit was designed, Charlie was supporting all of her weight even when she touched down (they weren't pretending he wasn't, but she still made a show of angling her foot).

      It appears to me she angles her foot in space, but is on a flat when her blade makes contact with the ice, and then pushes in for the outside edge. This is something Meryl, in particular, does a LOT.

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    2. P.S. - for the first URL, look at Meryl's attachments (the part of the skate that screws the blade into the boot). That's where you can see the lean/transition happen from apparent flat to inside.

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    3. The commenter responded--are they doing DW's PR? I wrote a response to them citing the strange bubble around DW's skating on the internet where you can't even point out a mistake or generous call--it is always seen as an attack on them (and I have nothing against them personally--I just feel like they are being held up big time and fans should be encouraged to ask questions). I didn't find the post favored any team but watch people try to write this off as someone with an agenda against DW. Thank goodness for OC and this new blog--some of the only places where figure skating fans are not treated as imbeciles.

      "I disagree. I think that even from the poor angle of the video, we can see that Meryl is on an inside edge (because her boot is tilted enough away from us enough that we can see the bottom of the other side). From the correct angle, I believe it would have been an inside edge placement of the blade to satisfy any but perhaps the strictest tech panel.

      @10:32

      The OP may not have claimed to be absolutely sure Meryl missed key points, but the skating fans linking to this post displayed no such reservations. You can consider that part of my comment to be aimed at more than just the OP's post.

      I don't consider the rules to be "silly," but I also don't pretend to be an expert or attempt to overthrow tech callers with crappy video. While I appreciate the OP's stated intention, I think the post should have been more conservative and even-handed in making judgement calls. For instance, why qualify the poor angle of BS and VM's second KP3 but not DW's when it is also problematic? The OP added one in, but it's still obviously not the angle that should be used to assess that key point. Why are VM and BS's free legs extended so much more than DW's in the caps used to assess those outside edges? Based on giffing DW's key point, I believe that would give those teams an advantage of assessing their edges for that KP. Probably the OP was forced to use those caps because of the poor angle/quality of the video, but it's still not a great way to assess the skills of the top two teams and the subject of one of the most fraught fan wars heading into the Sochi Olympics in two weeks. If edges should be clear, why is that noted for Davis's KP1 but not mentioned in Tessa and Ekaterina's KP3's "slight outside edges." And Ekaterina looks like she's on the barest of barely an outside edge in the cap provided -- Meryl's inside edge seems much more obvious to me in KP1 where it's being called a "grey area." But the tech panel awarded all three ladies with this key point, so maybe they were a more generous panel."

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    4. "It appears to me she angles her foot in space, but is on a flat when her blade makes contact with the ice, and then pushes in for the outside edge. This is something Meryl, in particular, does a LOT."

      Yep. Essentially, Tanith isn't lying when she talks about D/W really fighting to push in their edges. They look more forced in by the angling their bodies in space rather than naturally flowing down and out from the knee action. I think it's the fluctuation away from equilibrium that allows them to dig in to the ice in those moments, Meryl especially. It's why they usually tend to be somewhat jerky in their movements, even if they're trying hard to look less labored. There are few moments in their programs where that's more evident than in their SD mid-line step sequence.

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    5. I agree. DW ubers like to say their SD midline step sequences are the best, but if you compare D/W to V/M, it's immediately evident what V/M are doing is superior: knee action and bend to create the flowing edges. This is why D/W looks like they are pushing from one edge to another (kind of like what B/A used to do), rather than glide in and out like V/M do. It shows V/M have the better basics.

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    6. Why is it every time DW are criticized, there is some attempt to label the person/people doing it as being biased, stupid, disrespectful to the sport, or having too much time on their hands. oh, and there was also the accusation that they were encouraging fan wars. by getting people to talk about the skating?!

      And sorry, that poster's pics and gifs only confirm that Meryl was on a flat or at most on a bit of an inside edge for that first key point, and on a flat for the last one. Ekaterina and Tessa may not have hit the best edges for the last key point, but I can still say they were correct edges. With Meryl, I can't. And the angle for Meryl's was better than the one for Ekaterina or Tessa.

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    7. It was pointing to the angle of her boot in space/air as a "tell" that she hit the correct edge that gives the game away. When her blade is actually on the ice, it's flat. THEN it goes in. If the judges look at the angle of Meryl's foot before her blade hits the ice, then they are falling for misdirection. But I don't believe the judges are falling for misdirection. The misdireciton is for us. They know she hits her flats.

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    8. If DW's step sequences are the best then how is it that VM's blade curves are HUGE and DW's are choppy/pushed in/short. A fundamental of skating skills is run of blade. Where is it in DW's step sequences?

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    9. I looked through more of that blog and they did a post on turns using footage from the step sequences of a bunch of the top teams including VM, PB, DW. The differences in blade run between VM and PB versus DW is so obvious. And Meryl's body is just a mess because like you said, OC, she has to force the lean. She doesn't have the knees of Tessa or Nathalie. The blog doesn't compare the turns but tells you what to look for (the stuff you mention, OC) and it is clear from those criteria that DW are behind several teams on those step sequences.

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    10. honestly, to me it looks like Meryl is always squatting to take a pee. have you noticed? she's just bent over, squatting, tiptoeing, she makes no sense to me, her body movements that it. it's as if she's had no ballet training though she has.

      btw, I think the last lift at Canadians didn't end right with VM, am I wrong?

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    11. Squatting to take a pee. LOL She does hit some extremely unattractive positions, that's for sure. I think she's just completely unaware of what her body is actually doing and really doesn't care to fix it. It's not a problem for Davis and White. Nothing is a problem if you're skating while Davis and White.

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    12. "I think the post should have been more conservative and even-handed in making judgement calls. For instance, why qualify the poor angle of BS and VM's second KP3 but not DW's when it is also problematic?"

      This person is desperate to protect DW from any criticism or any close inspection of their skating (which will inevitably lead to criticism). That angle on Meryl's last key point is dead on, unlike the angles for Ekaterina and Tessa. Why qualify that? It is clear she is on a flat. I am tempted to post there and show them the link to OC's discussion of Meryl's missed key points at Skate America.

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    13. " it's as if she's had no ballet training though she has. "

      She has, but didn't she say she hated ballet? DW don't strike me as a team who put much effort into the dancing aspect of their programs. They polish their programs and show up prepared, but aside from their Bollywood (which was great) and their tango (which was not good but at least I see and appreciate the effort) have they ever really danced much?

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    14. P.S. - the two steel pieces attaching the skate blade to the skate boot are called "stanchion(s)". You can see the light flash on Meryl's stanchion when she presses in from the flat to the inside - the light flashes with the change of angle.

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    15. "I think she's just completely unaware of what her body is actually doing and really doesn't care to fix it. It's not a problem for Davis and White."

      Unfortunately true. If the judges were scoring DW fairly, then they would have been forced to pay attention to actually training *dance* -- meaning lines, posture, physical connection etc, etc. There were singles skaters who did okay circa 2006 and earlier, but were later strictly dinged for flutzing (like Mao), and were forced to re-learn jump technique. This is what should have happened in ice dance. But nooo, can't let the USFSA not get a historic 1st ice dance gold...

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    16. "There were singles skaters who did okay circa 2006 and earlier, but were later strictly dinged for flutzing (like Mao), and were forced to re-learn jump technique. This is what should have happened in ice dance. But nooo, can't let the USFSA not get a historic 1st ice dance gold..."

      That is a very good point.

      Also, here is the post with the gif of Meryl's turn. Talk about forcing an edge:

      http://icedanceanalysts.blogspot.ca/2013/11/to-everything-turn-turn-turn-turns-in.html

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    17. OC or anyone, "btw, I think the last lift at Canadians didn't end right with VM, am I wrong?" im new to understanding edges and the technical side, but am I right here?

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    18. The lift was done exactly the same way in the two FD practices at nationals, so I'm going to say no on it not ending right.

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    19. hmmm, the ending looks messy, like she's double footing it or something.

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    20. 12:49: even if Tessa is two-footed at the end of that lift, she still looks more elegant than Meryl ever could. And if that's the only element she ends on two feet, well than, she's still way ahead of Meryl, who ends ALL of her elements on two feet.

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    21. Meryl is bow-legged, as are many figure skaters (I think people believe it in itself helps rotation). Michelle Kwan was bow-legged- look at the line of her free leg from her hip to her foot in her change-edge spiral.

      Kwan, though, extended her body. She extended from the base of her spine, through her hips, her pelvis, her ribs, her chest.

      Meryl doesn't extend from her pelvis/hips. That gives her the look of a "squat" very often due to the line of her legs.

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    22. sorry, last lift doesn't end VM graceful. im in love with this program, but the ending looks sloppy. not like vm.

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    23. VM's last lift is new, that may be why it wasn't as polished as their others.

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    24. V/M's last lift might look messy, but Tessa's body control is great there. There's toe point and no knee bending at all resulting to her fab lines in that lift.

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    25. sorry, but their lifts at finlandia were way better. I don't understand the changes except for last one bc of time deductions but her legs look flaying and messy. love the last fit if they just end it right.

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    26. @ 5:44

      your post reminded me of a commenter on the Italian forum, La Fenice, who pointed out that Meryl's knees are always bent. If she tries to manage her legs on her own, they are bent in space. That is why she has to rest it on Charlie's body or have him hold it for her.

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  3. Finally, a V/M article about the SKATING:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/virtue-moir-eye-second-gold-165609508--spt.html

    The last sentence caught my eye:

    "We want to show different sides to ourselves, we want to challenge ourselves and not ... keep putting out the same material."

    I wonder if that's a little dig at their training mates?

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    1. It's difficult to dig at your training mates when Platov is telling the world your 2014 program is just like your 2010 program even though anybody who looks at 2010 can see Scott and Tessa have about doubled their run of blade and speed and power.

      Who cares about skating? Not Platov. He's jumped on the theme bandwagon. Even though DW's themes are all the same - exotic theatrical set pieces.

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    2. No wonder people don't take FS seriously as a sport. When experts like Platov are ignoring the technical aspects in favor of this "wow factor", what does that say? Maybe Platov, Browning, and other experts should take a look at these blogs and see that fans actually care to know what it is they are looking at. They are not all content to "sit back and enjoy the show".

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    3. Amen, 8:48. What is there to "wow" about in DW's programs? Charlie's unsteady blades in lifts? Meryl's inability to carry herself in a lift? The flats that should be edges? The snow flying up? The mismatched lines? The faked speed?

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    4. @8:53

      Well, I must admit, I did say "wow, look at all those hops"

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    5. Back in 2010, the judging were rewarding VM for what they put out on the ice. Their scores were saying that yes, this kind of skating is what we (the judges) are looking for. Fast forward to 2013-2014. The judges are more or less scoring VM according to how they skated (if they make a twizzle mistake, then ding them). But DW are not held to the same standard. DW are not penalized.

      The way that Evgeny Platov is talking? That's politics. He's not a big enough coach yet like Tarasova, Zoueva or even Zhulin to just say this or that without severe repercussions. I can't take what he says at face value when Marina herself can't/doesn't point out that DW are subpar. I don't believe for one minute that he doesn't know which ice dance team is the best in the world right now; he's been too long in the game to not recognize this. But this is also a guy who lived through three major coaching changes during his senior career - Dubova to Linichuk to Tarasova. He knows the power of spin, of the influence of those behind-the-scenes.

      Right now we're jumping on him because he recently had these interviews. If another had spouted the same words we'd be all over him/her too. Why should he or any other coach look at these blogs/comparison videos? They already know. They're just not choosing to speak up because of the shit favoring done by the ISU--what good would it do them?

      If anyone should speak up first, it really should be the commentators/journalists whose *job* it is to analyze, and if need be, eviscerate, the skating. Tracy 'team NBC' Wilson, the Eurosport guys. But hey, Canadian men's gold, Russian pairs gold, American ice dance gold, we've got a deal right? So keep mum on the judging inconsistencies, lalala. (It would serve Canada right if Chan splats under the pressure and hands the top spot to Hanyu or Fernandez, damn it.)

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    6. I agree that Platov knows...I just think that he and a lot of other "experts" must think we, the fans, are complete idiots. It is very obvious who the better team is. Platov can't say in actual skating terms that DW are the best so he uses this "wow factor" rubbish (without, of course, explaining what the "wow factor" in DW's program actually is).

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    7. For me it's significant that everybody is being "made" to sing from the same playbook. It's absurd that with something pitched as a "rivalry" someone like Platov can't come out and say he thinks Virtue and Moir are better. All of this is setting up for Davis White's win, and because it's going to be an unmerited win, apparently everybody's gotten the message that Davis White must not be criticized.

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    8. I found the following tweets from Geoffrey Tyler (he is a dancer and choreographer and did a lot of WP's SD) after the GPF (Dec 7) very interesting:

      "I clearly don't understand Ice Dancing. #GPFJapan #fishy"

      when asked if he was just referring to WP's results, he responded

      "refering to all the results."

      "and yet the results were also not in accordance with the opinions of a great many who are very well versed in it."

      ...

      "I'd like to believe this discussion is part of many more already begun. :) &Thank you for your support of and passion for skating!"

      I wonder who is talking about it and how...

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    9. If they say something like that it has to be about the skating because otherwise they've been putting out the same material since 2006.

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  4. I agree with the above posters take on the non touch mid-line step sequences comparing V/M vs. D/W. I'd LOVE to see a video comparison of the two SD step sequences.

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    1. Someone on FSU, arakwafan2006, tried to say that DW have much more difficult step sequences, and this went unchallenged. Um, all these teams are doing the same turns, just repeating different ones. What makes DW's more difficult? all those running steps used to connect them? then watch VM's connecting steps and tell me which team is doing the more difficult step sequences. Tracy even commented on the step in their circular where Tessa moves her leg over Scott's head.

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    2. Anon 11:22pm, which thead is that?

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    3. @10:31

      11:22 here.
      I think it was very early in the VM vs DW comparison thread, the one where that judge said VM weren't "tight with the music".

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  5. gilles poirier -just saw their Canadian finals. beginning to think they deserve sochi more than paul islam....

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    1. Paul and Islam outskated and outdanced GP in every single way possible at nationals. It is especially evident when watching them at the same time on the same ice that PI are a far better team than GP.

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    2. GP have my favorite FD this season, but I have to agree that PI outskated them and are at this point a far better team. They were so much smoother, had better blade run, and had much better line and unison. Alexandra also manages her body better than almost anyone in a lift save for Tessa. Their transitions were more difficult than GP's as well.

      I hope GP do well at 4CC

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    3. 8:37 you can't be serious. On content alone, the programs are simply not comparable. P/I have a much more difficult program, and much much more content. And they skated it flawlessly.

      GP has effective choreography but please look at the actual amount of skating being done, and the complexity (or lack of). I don't mean they're faking their skating, as they did somewhat last season, but it's an emptier program than P/I's. It's not about being busy either - they slow down and skate far apart and pose. It's done well, but it's doesn't require the same skill as P/I.

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    4. It's extremely frustrating when fans critique as if a figure skating competition is this PROGRAM versus that PROGRAM. It's not. It's this team's skating versus that teams skating.

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    5. Never did I notice the "this PROGRAM versus that PROGRAM" stuff more than the season VM did Funny Face and DW did Die Fledermaus. The entire narrative was based around this kind of thing. Then people see the feet-only videos and (hopefully) realize how much more VM did in their program and how much better they did it. DW had some nice moments in theirs, but there was also an awful lot of hopping and skipping. And the music carried them. You turn the sound off and you don't really see the waltz part.

      I hate that the discussion around figure skating is so simplistic to be based on only how energetic a program was or how nice/cool its theme was and who made more (obvious) mistakes. What about the actual SKATING part? Why don't commentators tell us what makes one's basic technique superior to another, what makes their program more difficult than another skater's or team's? Instead we get, 'oh, well, this music doesn't work for me...it kinda takes me out of the program' without talk of how the skaters actually interpreted the music (I'm looking at you, Kurt Browning).

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    6. Anon at 9:29 pm - totally agree with your post. I actually think that many of these commentators including Browning are just lazy and they treat competitions like a beauty pageant rather than a sport. And seriously can we not get a new set of commentators every 8-10 years who actually know something about COP. You know it's bad when TSN/CTV sticks Rod Black into figure skating...oiee..and believe me there is a reason why Rod Black never became a head sports anchor...

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    7. @9:49

      Rod Black is the WORST! He has been covering the sport for like, 20 years, and he still knows nothing about it! He just takes up valuable time repeating useless information about so-called rivalries, someone's difficult personality...drama. I mean, in all these years how does he know so little? And if he doesn't care to learn about something he is reporting on (responsible journalism right there), then just stick to stats and let others do the rest. And I think the network is stupid to pay someone who acts as an impediment to the REAL expert, Tracy Wilson.

      It is demeaning that figure skating is treated this way by the networks--nothing more than a glorified beauty pageant.

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    8. PI are better than most of the teams out there. their technique is excellent and they have a very complex program. imo, VM, PB, and PI are the top three teams right now.

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  6. "There is a huge resistance to having an informed public."

    This. I don't get it. In broadcasts of other sports the commentary treats the fans like they actually know something or care to know something. They talk in very technical terms. And I don't buy that this can't or shouldn't be done because figure skating is an artistic sport. so is gymnastics, and they manage to talk about it as a sport.

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  7. OC im 8:37, I was just impressed with GP. they do a lot of posing and their lifts are great but yes I understand their skating is not as good as PI. tho they seem more polished.

    is it wrong that I cannot stand that American Madison team?

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    1. Madison Chock and Evan Bates or Madison Hubbell and Zachary Donahue.

      In the first, it's fine. If it's the second, it's wrong. HD still have work to do, but they're excellent dancers and skaters and, IMO, have a very bright future ahead of them as they continue to improve.

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    2. I'm not 9:01, just to be clear.

      I haven't watched either "Madison" team enough to have an opinion. I read on the message boards that Chock & Bates had a good skate but until I see for myself I won't know if they skated well. HD I've only seen a couple of times and didn't watch attentively.

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