Tuesday, April 2, 2013

Program Intermission - Reading Comprehension

In the comments underneath some posts below (as well as in common discussion on skating message boards) there are sweeping statements and some speculation about Jennifer Swan's choreography that imply the Carmen program is the work of only Swan. And that Virtue and Moir brought in Swan after Marina's choreography was unsatisfactory.

As a public service, this:

Jacquelyn Thayer's interview with Jennifer Swan

I don't understand and never will understand why people can't or won't read or become informed and instead favor speculation.*

I will never understand how so-called fans of ice dance consistently fail to understand that a competitive ice dance program must be SKATED according to very specific criteria for high levels and GOE, that an ice dance program must include specific elements executed according to specific rules and restrictions, and these elements must also come in under a certain time in and of themselves, as well as the program as a whole come in under a certain time, and so therefore the music cuts must both work with the element layout and the overall program time restrictions.

But no. All over message boards fans are like- hey, Virtue Moir should just take Swan and you know - fill in the skating stuff! Or get Igor to do the tech!

As if the tech is just pasted onto the choreography.

Thayer's interview with Swan isn't over long, and yet it answers every basic question about the collaboration. And it doesn't matter! Fans ignore what she says and make up their own version of what went on.

Key points:

Swan worked with Virtue Moir (and MARINA) on Pink Floyd, so her involvement with their skating programs goes back four years at least, although she's known Tessa for years and years.

Marina and Virtue and Moir asked Swan to work with them in May of 2012. MAY.

Swan is a successful and busy choreographer and was out of the country. She wasn't available until July.

In the meantime the skaters and their coach developed a "working draft" of Carmen.

Swan arrives and begins working on the specific movement Virtue and Moir will use in Carmen.

This process looks a whole lot more to me like choreographer comes in and, via collaborating with the skater and the coach, works out the choreography according to the figure skating.

NOT a choreographer coming in and developing choreography on the floor and some how, by some miracle, the skaters then take it onto the ice and - voila!! Just plug in twizzles, footwork, spins, lift, linking moves, entrances and exits to high risk elements with ease!

It's a figure skating competition first and foremost and that's the first consideration. Swan is yet another brilliant collaborator, yet another "best" sought out by Virtue and Moir, who is talented enough and visual enough to integrate what she does off ice into an ice dance program. Who is able to thoroughly understand completely different movement mechanics (the foot in the skating boot is rigid and there's nothing more antithetical to modern movement) and still make the modern movement work with skating, with the result that the final program is seamless.

We realize that it is seamless not because it represents the work of a single ballet choreographer but because Marina and Swan and Virtue and Moir worked together brilliantly and each perfectly understood what they wanted the program to look like in the end - every movement having both choreographic and psychological intent, nothing extraneous, using modern movement style which = lower center of gravity/working towards the floor as opposed to the "up up" of  a lot of other dance.

This program is the work of people who understand what they're doing backwards and forwards and are genius problem solvers and thoroughly grasp both the big picture and its component parts. Otherwise this program would not have been possible.

Another collaborator is Maria Mountain. It was up to Mountain to figure out what the skaters needed to do in order to fulfill the choreography - i.e., this particular move might put unaccustomed pressure on a knee, this move asks something different of Tessa's body than she's asked of it before in lifts.

I don't get why so many fans fetishize choreography in ice dance as an art APART AND SEPARATE FROM SKATING.

That is impossible when it is done properly. When the skaters are actually skating their dance style and not just styling their skating.

Which of the above do we think is harder?

I think my favorite fan remark was that Virtue Moir ought to go to Igor and just keep Swan for "flourishes". Flourishes? When have Virtue and Moir become knees up skaters? Or gesture skaters? Flourishes skaters? What a freaking insult to Swan and what was accomplished with Carmen. Carmen was a choreographic collaboration using figure skating as the medium - that's the genius of Carmen, that's the CoP-centricity of Carmen and it is not just Swan's masterpiece but belongs fully as much to the coach and the skaters.

___________________________
*And not for nothing but it also kills me that in the past the blog has been bashed for calling Virtue and Moir liars about their off ice relationship by the same people who happily throw everything else Virtue and Moir say out the window in favor of their own political theories and aesthetic preferences and made up soap opera scenarios about everything from Virtue and Moir's personal relationship with Davis & White to their coaching situation. And to other aspects of Virtue and Moir's relationship. They have no problem whatsoever ignoring, second guessing or completely disregarding what the skaters say about that stuff and plugging in their own made up theories. It's not the blog bashing that kills me, it's the inconsistency and it's the oblivious.

26 comments:

  1. somebody posted this link on fsu.
    http://midnightreignofjazz.tumblr.com/image/45617260007
    I think it shows scotts flexibility and extension because this is a controlled intentional movement in the program that is perfectly matched to the music.

    This is not a random flailing kick while throwing the body and hair around a la charlie while

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    Replies
    1. Random and flailing merits higher scores than controlled intentional movements perfectly matched to the music. Obviously.

      I imagine the new ISU amendments to ice dance scoring will reflect this.

      Delete
  2. Great entry.

    Tessa and Scott have continually said they are very comfortable with their coaching situation. Not only that, Marina's history as coach and choreographer speaks for itself. I never understand fans blaming any perceived wrong on Marina. Since the end of the latest season the message boards are full of moaning and groaning again about getting away from Marina. Are they saying Tessa and Scott are lying about anything positive they say about their coach? But oh, when it comes to relationship questions, they are telling the absolute truth. I think they all hear (read) only what they want and they want to interpret things any way they want. Who cares about looking at the facts. Not only facts relating to VM but in general in the skating world as far as what coaches and choreographers really do.

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  3. http://fskating.com/2013/03/marina-zoueva-both-teams-did-a-great-job.html#more-6462

    Here is Marina saying exactly the type of stuff this blog argues against so eloquently:

    “In my view, both couples skated very well, difficult and emotionally. But today we saw two completely different programs performed by completely different skaters. They differ in style, emotions and feelings. Therefore it is always so hard to choose which one is better. It’s like choosing between apples and oranges.”

    DW's program is not as difficult, their sloppiness is not a style, and emotions and feelings are not part of CoP (other than some throwaway undefined reference to "intellectual involvement in the music"). The only thing she got right is the programs are completely different and DW and VM are completely different skaters. It's not apples and oranges. It's CoP. It measures THE SAME STUFF. It's a beautiful ripe fresh apple vs a rotten shriveling one. It's not a matter of subjective opinions.

    I know - they're both her teams, what is she supposed to say.

    But whom does this argument favor? When you say two things are equal and they're in reality not, you are supporting the inferior thing. These comparisons do VM no justice.

    "Separate but equal" didn't work for race relations and it doesn't work in figure skating. It is impossible that two teams could be technically equal on every element, in every aspect of every component, and it just comes down to "emotions."

    If I were VM, I would want a coach who understood what made me special (she does) and made sure that the skating world NEVER forgot that.

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    1. Anon at 4:38 - Thanks for expressing this so well.

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    2. She coaches both teams. What do you think Krylova and Carmelango would say if asked who was better - P&B or W&P? For that matter - what if VM went with them?

      I don't understand - AT ALL - the idea that Marina is at the heart of the judging problem. How does that work? Everything becomes an excuse to point a finger at her.

      The judges are the judging problem.


      Marina is not even talking about judging; she's talking preferences. Which do you prefer.

      I continue to not understand why so many fans are obsessed with Marina. They pychoanalyze Scott and Tessa and refuse to believe Scott and Tessa's own account of themselves.

      But as the first comment rightly notes, we must believe them utterly about their relationship. Their coaching environment, their faith in and confidence in Marina, their friendships, and everything else can be safely called lies.

      Figure skating itself isn't the only political entity - the fandom is driven by politics although I've never undestood the paranoia and dislike that is so particularly focused on Zoueva or the tendency to decide any program fans like, someone else (or Igor) did, and the programs on line fans don't like were, of course her.

      What the hell is that about?

      Marina was ASKED about her teams. Is she supposed to say 'no comment'? Do you know what THAT looks like? Is she supposed to say Scott and Tessa were screwed - I can't believe the judges overscored Meryl and Charlie?

      If you think this is unhelpful, what would you have her say instead?

      What she said has no impact. There's none. She's a coach. The judges are judges. They're not doing their job. They are up to their necks in hinkiness here.

      Where are the other Canadian coaches and skaters both current and retired who are free to speak out, btw? They don't coach both DW and VM. They don't have to say "very different - it's all whom you prefer." They can be all "Go Canada" and call out the ridiculous DW scores and the double standard applied to VM. They could perhaps speak up when VM got shafted at Canadians and Gilles Poirier got pushed. They could speak up when DW got 77 points early in the flight BEFORE the last flight at Worlds.

      Where are they? How come the only one saying anything at all is Zhulin of all people? (I loved his remark about we don't have the full picture. There are worlds implied with that comment.)

      Why harp on Marina? What about PJ? What about Tracy? Marina is the damn coach. How are the others helping? What about Joanne? They don't have a conflict of interest - they aren't working with DW.

      But no. Marina Marina Marina. The fan politics about that woman, if not based purely on aesthetics (and it always seems to be - a lot of fans really don't like good choreography) - make no sense.

      There is nothing Marina says that helps or hurts - it's the judges. Her choreography speaks for itself. What she gave VM spoke for itself. What she did for DW did a job for them and it was up to the judges to see through it.

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    3. "Where are they? How come the only one saying anything at all is Zhulin of all people? (I loved his remark about we don't have the full picture. There are worlds implied with that comment.)"

      I'd love to know where in the hell everyone else is right now--the press, the other coaches, etc. It is beyond infuriating that none of these people are sticking up for V/M. If D/W were a Russian or European team, it would be entirely different. I know some of these people are clueless, but some of them most certainly aren't. The worst scandal ever in this sport, and no one is saying a thing...

      Zhulin really is the only one who's said a thing. Some have tried to brush it off because of the briefness of his statement, but I'm with you that he implied volumes with the bit about not having the full picture. In the past, Zhulin has said stuff about the judging and hinted at things when most wouldn't. I think the fact that he and Usova got the fuzzy end of the lollipop more than a few times when it came to politics probably plays into that.

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    4. It's more than the rest of the Canadian skating world not speaking up for VM - they've all conspicuously rolled over and gone out of their way to agree with the results.

      THAT is fucking hinky. We're talking PJ Kwong here who made no bones about thinking Gilles and fucking Poirier ought to have beaten Hubbell Donohue last year and backed it up by reminding us she was an ice dance coach and therefore not biased (an hilarious statement, obviously). When put on the spot about why she felt they ought to have beaten H&D, she couldn't answer.

      What do they all know, or think they know, that the public doesn't know? What do they get out of getting along and playing along?

      Delete
    5. I'm also what the fuck about DW's choreography score in the short. Element distribution and layout is a part of the choreography score and that program made plenty of room for two-footing, hopping, lunging, stepping - there was almost nothing continuous - DW can't SKATE from this to that, they can't flow from one thing to the next. Plus the posing section in the middle and VM didn't have one.

      What was being awarded with the choreography score? The great job Marina did disguising DW's limitations and recycling Die Fleudermaus for the short program?

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    6. Marina is not “the heart of the judging problem” but she isn’t doing anything to combat it either (other than giving VM amazing choreography that actually comports to the rulebook which the judges ignore – but she ignores that they ignore it).

      The difference between Marina and PJ/Tracy/Joannie is that she has an obligation to VM. IMO, not only to be their coach and choreographer but at this level, to put herself fully behind them winning. The others don’t. They don’t have to support VM. They are not required to have taste. Skate Canada and Marina are the ones that have a duty to support VM.

      Marina is a good skating coach. True. She’s a good choreographer. True. But VM don’t have a skating problem or a choreography problem. They have an image problem. They have a problem where their skating is clearly superior and an inferior couple is being ranked equal or even better. They have a problem where if they have a wobble on a superbly performed element, they will lose, while the other team will win as long as they perform their elements “perfectly” by their own standards (with poor form, on two feet, etc).

      A coach should identify a skater’s biggest problem and address it. And yes, I believe that includes the off-ice politics and image. Linichuk and Tarasova were known as masters of politics, and Zhulin has talked up Bobrova Soloviev’s new image as much as their skating.

      To be clear, I’m not suggesting VM should need this to win, or even that Marina must do this. I would just like her to at least NOT perpetuate the biggest myth in figure skating (actually, more like outright façade and lie) that is killing VM in the scores.

      We as fans (and this blog is doing an excellent job) struggle so hard to be heard about the simple truth that THESE TEAMS ARE NOT EQUAL and then their coach says it's hard to pick which one is better? No, it's not hard at all. It might be hard to pick the one you like, but it isn't hard at all to pick which one is better. How are people supposed to take this message seriously when VM's own coach won't acknowledge it?

      If VM went to Krylova she’d be their undisputed #1. She could effectively push VM for gold and her other team(s) for bronze. As between WP and PB, I don’t know and I don’t care. Marina just can’t effectively serve two masters anymore. It’s an embarrassment of riches for her. She’s such a good coach that she created a monster. Earlier in the season she was talking about VM’s 200 points. If the judges would score correctly, she could effectively coach both – VM to gold absent major mistakes, and DW keeping their rivals at bay for silver. But she has succeeded a little too well in masking DW’s flaws, to the point that it’s hurting VM because they have to kill themselves in the difficulty and get marked down for any perceived flaws. Pairs and singles are different because you can give them the best jump layout and choreography and let the chips fall where they may.

      Ice dancing measures minutiae (or it should, anyway) so how can you give one team fake pretend skating choreography and the other a real program and not say anything when the judges don’t reward it?

      I guess it isn’t Marina’s fault, what is she supposed to say? But her teams should see this. DW are the ones that need her cover, so they’re not the ones who should leave.

      Why not Igor? Their success through 2012 is just as attributable to him, and their one Marina-only season has been a flop. As good as their programs were (as in "all time classic" good), they lost every major event.

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    7. 2:49pm I'm not following your logic, and I disagree with many of your assertions. So to take them step by step.

      >>Marina is not “the heart of the judging problem” but she isn’t doing anything to combat it either (other than giving VM amazing choreography that actually comports to the rulebook which the judges ignore – but she ignores that they ignore it).<<<

      Okay, so the judges are the coach's job? Not just their job, their PRIMARY job? Moreover, their job is to address coaching inequities in the press, or we may presume they're "ignoring it"? Marina has no interest in how Carmen got the shaft? Because where's her press release?

      I'm just curious about what exactly you or anyone else think a coach's obligation is or what influence they are supposed to wield. Since there seems to be quite a lot of conviction that Marina isn't doing her job in that department, I'd like to ask how much influence have coaches publicly wielded with the judging in the past? When has a coach in the past politicized their skaters to a fair result by going after the results in public? Where is this idea coming from - that Marina should "do something" about the judging, and based on what precedent?

      I also love that her choreography, which is what they're PAYING HER FOR, which is why they're with her, is something dismissed by you as an "other than"

      "(other than giving VM amazing choreography that actually comports to the rulebook which the judges ignore – but she ignores that they ignore it)"

      Wait, so in your opinion, Marina's primary job as a coach is to - do what - with the judges? And the choreography is a minor part of that main job.

      "She ignores that they ignore it." Oh yeah. Because a statement to the press is the alpha and omega of all of the discussions and inquiries about this situation. Marina hasn't and isn't doing any due diligence about why the fuck her team was screwed.

      But most of all, it's back to this incredibly weird idea that a coach's job is to influence the judges or court of public opinion for his or her skaters in cases of biased judging, and Marina is falling down on this job. Choreography? It's great, but that's not what they're paying her for!

      The logic here - the fucking PREMISE - is not rationale.



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    8. >>>The difference between Marina and PJ/Tracy/Joannie is that she has an obligation to VM. IMO, not only to be their coach and choreographer but at this level, to put herself fully behind them winning. The others don’t. They don’t have to support VM. They are not required to have taste. Skate Canada and Marina are the ones that have a duty to support VM.<<<

      How is she NOT putting herself fully behind them winning? She gave them a spectacular program.

      Can you spell out what her "duty" looks like in action? What should she be saying and to whom after Worlds 2013? And can you tell me where you got the notion that THIS is the coach's primary responsibility to their skaters. The coach's primary responsibility is NOT coaching and training their skaters?

      Marina didn't miss a step in her choreo. If she had choreographed 6.0 program in a CoP world the way some coaches are apt to do, then Virtue Moir could think, well, we need somebody better. She choreographed a CoP master class for Virtue and Moir. The judges pissed on it. And so of course, they must leave Marina. That is obvious.

      Essentially those who say they must leave Marina are making up a nonexistent responsbility of Marina's - a mere coach has to call out corruption and declare her team ought to have defeated another team - and this will WORK in her skaters' favor and make them succeed the next time, because we all see how perfectly it plays out when other coaches do this.

      BTW - what other coaches DO do this? We wouldn't want Virtue and Moir to go to another coach and find that coach isn't doing their judge duty either.

      >>>>Marina is a good skating coach. True. She’s a good choreographer. True. But VM don’t have a skating problem or a choreography problem. <<<<<

      Very true, so it seems to me Marina isn't the problem, and they should look elsewhere for the root of the problem.

      No?

      I'm trying to follow this. Marina, the coach - is a good coach. Marina the choreographer, is an amazing choreographer. So far, so good.

      But they have to get rid of her because:


      >>>They have an image problem. They have a problem where their skating is clearly superior and an inferior couple is being ranked equal or even better. They have a problem where if they have a wobble on a superbly performed element, they will lose, while the other team will win as long as they perform their elements “perfectly” by their own standards (with poor form, on two feet, etc). <<<

      And it is Marina's problem to manage the image problem? Skate Canada - of the nonexistent CEO, the lame duck president, and the glories of Debbi Wilkes shouldn't be thundering about this?

      Oh my gosh - are there no sports management companies out there who could possibly take some of this on for Tessa and Scott? Is Marina refusing to let that happen? Are Tessa and Scott throwing themselves at IMG and being turned down?

      Davis White got a tidal wave of aggressive publicity prior to Worlds. Who put that out? Was that Marina? Did she hire that ballroom dude to write about Charlie Baryshnikov White? Did she tell Jacquie White to get out there and share Meryl's depth perception problems? Did she set up their interview with the reporter who discussed how everyone knows DW were robbed in 2012?



      Delete
    9. >>>A coach should identify a skater’s biggest problem and address it. And yes, I believe that includes the off-ice politics and image. Linichuk and Tarasova were known as masters of politics, and Zhulin has talked up Bobrova Soloviev’s new image as much as their skating.<<<

      Yeah, Linichuk's teams finished third and fourth and the Olympics in 2010. Zhulin also talked up I/K's skating til he was blue in the face and got nowhere, apparently because of their work ethic.

      Marina said Carmen could get 200 points - how dare she insult Virtue Moir like that. She said Tessa's technique is superb. She repeatedly reminds us they're Olympic champions who can do what other skaters can't do.

      >>>To be clear, I’m not suggesting VM should need this to win, or even that Marina must do this. I would just like her to at least NOT perpetuate the biggest myth in figure skating (actually, more like outright façade and lie) that is killing VM in the scores.<<<

      She is the coach. The ones who are perpetuating the myth are

      figure skating media
      icenetwork
      US sports media
      Television commentators

      The ones who ought to be pushing back for Tessa and Scott are Skate Canada and some kind of management team with a fucking clue.

      Do you know why Marina's totally inoccuous remarks about her skaters' relative stylistic merits are getting so much attention?

      BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE IS SAYING ANYTHING.

      That isn't her fault.

      HOw is it that the answer to Skate Canada doing nothing and Virtue and Moir not having IMG or anything else in the way of proper public relations = Marina Zoueva should be doing this job for them? Forget the choreo and the coaching - we've got an emergency here! Marina - launch a 24/7 pr push for Virtue Moir - stat!

      Marina Zoueva is supposed to be doing for Virtue Moir what icenetwork and the US media are doing for Davis White.

      That is SOME job. When would she have time to choreograph?

      Oh right. That's just an "other than". That's not even her real job!

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    10. >>>We as fans (and this blog is doing an excellent job) struggle so hard to be heard about the simple truth that THESE TEAMS ARE NOT EQUAL and then their coach says it's hard to pick which one is better? <<<

      Do you know why you hear their coach's voice so loudly, way more loudly than is fair to her, way more loudly than is reasonable, why you are piling a host of responsibilities onto Marina's shoulders that don't belong to her? Why you are assigning way way WAY too much power to the word of the coach in the court of public opinion?

      Because Skate Canada isn't doing shit. Because Skatebuzz isn't doing shit. Because twitter isn't doing shit. Because Scott and Tessa have decided they don't need media professionals getting their SKATING perspective out there - and so the story of their skating isn't out there.

      And because of this, Marina, who works 12 hours a day, is supposed to also function as a full time publicist for Virtue and Moir (because that's what it takes to push back against the aggressive push for Davis Kelloggs Cereal White) and because she cannot, Virtue and Moir need to leave her?

      >>>No, it's not hard at all. It might be hard to pick the one you like, but it isn't hard at all to pick which one is better. How are people supposed to take this message seriously when VM's own coach won't acknowledge it?<<<

      1. The COACH has never been the person people (the court of public opinion) take seriously about the skaters they're training. When has the biggest influence on media spin EVER been the coach?

      2. Marina has ALWAYS talked in banalities about both teams; she's never done a technical deconstruction EVER no matter what the scores. Virtue Moir are "harmony" have "power between them" are "man woman even when they came to her".

      That's still basically what she says about them. None of that shit's in the rulebook and that's all she's really said and yet by some miracle they won the Olympics.

      3. Marina never trashed Domnina Shabalin when they won Worlds in 2009 nor did she backhand Tanith/Ben despite the fact that many onlookers thought that result was hinky, and yet despite Marina failing in her duty on that occasion as well, somehow Virtue Moir came back the next year and won the Olympics.

      Delete
    11. >>If VM went to Krylova she’d be their undisputed #1. She could effectively push VM for gold and her other team(s) for bronze. <<

      Question - how would Krylova pushing "her other teams for bronze" differ from Marina pushing BOTH DW and VM for gold? How is it fair to push several teams for bronze?

      Another question: what happens to DW in this scenario? Icenetwork stops pretending they're fabulous skaters? The American media stops talking about what wonderful people Meryl and Charlie are and how their training mates robbed them? The USFSA loses interest in Davis & White's gold medal prospects in Sochi and no longer lobbies on their behalf? No cozy chats with Phil Hersch? Tessa gets a cramp a some competition and thanks to Krylova's effective strategies everybody now thinks the stop and start rule is okay? Kelloggs dumps DW? Scott Hamilton turns off Davis & White? When DW skate the television commentators suddenly tell us: "You know what - their twizzles ain't all that."

      Wow, Krylova is GOOD.

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    12. continued:

      All of this happens because VM go to Krylova, who, in ways you have not specified, will "successfully push them to gold" - which obviously involves Krylova transforming the media perception of DW's skating - and by media we mean the US media and icenetwork, and transforms how North American broadcast media interprets what DW do on the ice. Tracy Wilson, commenting for NBC, will say, "Geez, sometimes I wonder how this team even got on the podium!"

      By moving to Krylova, Arctic Edge vanishes and DW are a non-factor. Marina's choreography no longer works for them.

      I'll need to have this explained in more detail.

      >>>>As between WP and PB, I don’t know and I don’t care. Marina just can’t effectively serve two masters anymore. <<<

      She's been doing it for years because this year the program she gave Virtue and Moir was the greatest free dance, I think, EVER given to an ice dance team.

      I think the "master" you're saying Marina isn't serving is the media master. Marina's all powerful ability - not just her ability, her DUTY - to get the judges to score the way they should and the media - including the American media - to write about Virtue Moir as they should and to expose and call out DW as they should.

      All of this you see as not just Marina's job, but doable by a coach. She can get all of this done, if only she didn't also coach DW.


      >>>But she has succeeded a little too well in masking DW’s flaws, to the point that it’s hurting VM because they have to kill themselves in the difficulty and get marked down for any perceived flaws. Pairs and singles are different because you can give them the best jump layout and choreography and let the chips fall where they may.<<<

      But if it's VM who leave Arctic Edge, Marina's ability to mask DW's flaws will also leave with Virtue and Moir?

      I'm really curious about how Krylova is going to effectively strategize VM to gold, how she is going to discipline and subdue the US media when they write about DW, and get icenetwork to stop insulting Virtue and Moir AND get the judges to stop giving DW pcs for shit they're not doing. VM go to Krylova and voila - problem solved. Because the problem is Marina - all of it. What icenetwork does. Kellogs. What the commentators say

      Does she have special influence with the USFSA?

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    13. >>Ice dancing measures minutiae (or it should, anyway) so how can you give one team fake pretend skating choreography and the other a real program and not say anything when the judges don’t reward it?<<<

      And we know she didn't say anything how?

      >>>I guess it isn’t Marina’s fault, what is she supposed to say? But her teams should see this. DW are the ones that need her cover, so they’re not the ones who should leave.<<<

      But her cover will stop working for Davis White if Virtue Moir leave Arctic Edge?


      >>>Why not Igor? Their success through 2012 is just as attributable to him<<<

      Yeah, I don't agree. He can't choreograph like she can, and VM did just fine on TES this season - as well and even better than with Igor. It's pcs where they got shafted. Marina needs a tech person but Marina is the genius of her operation. She and Igor were a team but not an equal team.

      <<<and their one Marina-only season has been a flop. As good as their programs were (as in "all time classic" good), they lost every major event.<<<

      And the "flop" part of it is down to Marina? The fact that she gave them a beyond brilliant, all time classic program is all well and good BUT - the fact that the judges pissed on it - including the judges at Skate Canada, where DW did not skate, and which painted a target on VM's back - that is MARINA's failure?

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    14. I would also like to point out that Belbin Agosto left Arctic Edge in part, fans believed, because they were no longer Arctic Edge's number one team.

      And how well did Linichuk - described above as a "master" of political strategies - do for B&A at the Vancouver Olympics?

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    15. "And how well did Linichuk - described above as a "master" of political strategies - do for B&A at the Vancouver Olympics?"

      I think Linichuk's political power, along with the full support of the Russian fed, went to getting D/S that bronze medal. Between Shabalin's knees and the programs they showed up with for the OD (especially the OD) and the FD, it shouldn't have happened. For the record, I don't think remaining in Canton would have helped B/A finish any higher in Vancouver either. That said, I do think Linichuk was able to help B/A improve in some of the areas that they needed to do work in, and I think they did more actual skating in their programs than D/W did (more on edges and one foot, even).

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    16. Here's who I think is derelict and it's not Marina Zoueva. It's Skate fucking Canada. Who is doing the pr job for DW right now? Is it Marina? It is not. It's icenetwork, and the US media.

      Are DW getting railroaded to championships thanks to their coach, Marina? Did Marina orchestrate the smothering, brook-no-dissent, front-loaded bullying in the press prior to this Worlds?

      It was icenetwork. It was the USFSA. It was the matrix of US media and the USFSA.

      The US media has about a bajillion times the reach and influence of the Canadian media even in Canada. They are not about to be persuaded that a fancy Canadian team are better than their own DW, particularly when the US media (and Canadian media) knows jackshit about figure skating.

      BUT, I'll tell you something that strikes me. I've only really paid attention to Patrick Chan the last two years, since Christy Krall and dartfish transformed him. But going back to 2008 I am very very aware of Skate Canada consistently and very very very persistently making the case for Patrick as the best skater in the world. They talked jumps versus skating skills. They talked jumps and skating skills. Skate Canada was super clear about why what Patrick did on the ice merited the points no matter what the other men were doing, because none of the other men did what Patrick did. I don't remember anything about Patrick's romantic life as an eligible bachelor. I don't remember wiping my eyes over some trauma or heartbreak. I don't remember some glorious profile about how much he respects his Chinese heritage but thank fucking God he's Canadian.

      Here's what I constantly, consistently heard: his skating is better than any other man's. Here's why his skating is better than any other man's. Here's how it works. Here's why he's basically unbeatable in any legitimate scoring universe.

      First time I really paid attention to him was at WTT 2009. I thought "eh". Everything looked workmanlike to me. I didn't see the hand of the divine, the sublime blade run and effortless flow that the claims for Chan would lead one to expect.

      But later, I did.

      Yet Skate Canada stayed on message, and remains on message. Patrick's skating. They don't say 'Takahashi'. Or 'Ten'. They say 'other men' and Patrick.

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    17. Continued:

      There is nothing stopping Skate Canada from getting out in the media what Tessa and Scott deliver as skaters, why their combination of sublime intricate skating skills and audacious athleticism and superb mechanics and Astaire-like musicality and heart-stopping physical interdependance make them a package that "no other team" can match, not if CoP means what it says. That what they deliver is out of reach for 'the others'. You know, the way the talk about Patrick constantly backs CoP into a corner (as it should).

      Skate Canada makes the skating case for Patrick over and over. They don't take his results for granted. Skate Canada is always out there.

      I don't know his parents' fucking names. I don't know his cute off ice habits. I DO know that Skate Canada has been telling us since 2008 that per CoP, per the ISU's own rules, whatever the "other men' bring to the table, Patrick simply has more, and because CoP is a statistical, quantifiable scoring system, there is really nothing for Patrick to do but win.

      There is no rule that says Mike Slipchuk can't open his mouth loudly and often, as he has done for Patrick, and without mentioning 'Davis White', allude to "other teams", and break down for us and the media, per CoP, why what Virtue Moir bring can't be matched by any other team. How they have the TES. How they have the speed and power. (Similar to him talking about Patrick's skating skill set). And how in addition to that they have the skating skills that "other teams' are incapable of achieving, and then go ahead and describe chapter and verse those skating skills and how the "other teams" haven't yet approached those skills, and it is doubtful they ever will be able to replicate or compete with the complete package and perfectly CoP conforming skating that VM bring to the table time and time again.

      They've been doing it for Patrick for five fucking years.

      With VM they are silent.

      Marina isn't the one promoting DW. It's icenetwork; it's loud, famous broadcast television personalities (Tanith, Scott Hamilton, and, in lower key, Tracy Wilson).

      And the ones not doing their fucking job for VM is Skate Canada. That's always been they way. Skate Canada has always, always always been "What can we get from Virtue and Moir."

      They don't need to change coaches. Change Federations - yes.

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    18. P.S. I don't recall Christy Krall leading the media headlines for Patrick's skating or for how Patrick was scored or how he deserved to win and why. I don't see his current team doing it now.

      I do see Skate Canada doing it. Loudly, often, and chapter and verse.

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    19. "Change Federations - yes."

      *sigh* I wish that was something that could really happen. Zhulin has said that he wishes they were Russian. The Russian fans and other Russian skaters seem to love them. Why can't Russia adopt them?

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    20. Wouldn't it be ironic if in Sochi - V/M are the only ones that medal for Skate Canada? At this point, I think any federation besides Skate Canada would want V/M. Don't get me wrong - Patrick is a great skater - but overall package - V/M are miles ahead. It will be interesting to see if Patrick actually brings 2 new programs for next year. And if he doesn't - to me it speaks volumes. And there is no more excuses that he can't afford two new programs. OC - as to your analogy with V/M and B/S - it is comparable. No way that Sale/Pelletier had the same difficulty and unfortunately with some of the Canadian pairs - what brought them scores were big tricks especially due to the size differential (ie. Sale/Pelletier and Brasseur/Eisler). Not that these teams skating skills were horrible (far from it) but the difficulty in choreography was not in the same league as the Russians.

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    21. The same thought crossed my mind about how ironic it would be if V/M were the only Canadians to medal in Sochi.

      Their size difference did certainly help B/E, but I consider them to be a stronger team overall than S/P. B/E's biggest problem, IMO, was Isabelle's tendency to headcase on the jumps and throws and break on the landings at other times. Their lifts though required for more than just size differential to pull off. Both of them had to be stable and have a great deal of control. B/E are not one of the all-time great pairs teams, but I do think they had some of the best lifts ever (even if they wouldn't score well now because of having to hold positions for X number of seconds).

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  4. There's a great new article from Thayer on her other blog http://stepsequences.blogspot.ca/. Also, I'm pretty sure she spells her name Jacquelyn.

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