Paul Islam Retire
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| The Future of Canadian Ice Dance |
Wonderful as Virtue and Moir are, I have always felt that Gilles Poirier were way more up Skate Canada's alley. If it could clone Bourne &
Although by all appearances Alexandra Paul and Mitchell Islam did everything they could to get Skate Canada to give a shit, and nothing worked, is there nothing else they could have tried?
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That glorious straightline *sobs* Thanks for posting this. P/I seemed to become convinced the last couple of years that they were crappy lifters. That Gadbois centre sure knows how to work with skilled teams *eye roll*
ReplyDeleteI remember awhile back it being pointed out that Skate Canada's fixation on Gilles Poirier ended up limiting the opportunities for other dance teams. P/I were a beautiful team who should have had more supportive feedback from a Skate Canada that took them seriously.
DeleteI was looking at the Skate Canada website, and, as has been pointed out here a number of times, the ratio of "Directors" to total # of employees is ridiculously large. For that matter, what the hell is a "Director at Large"? Skate Canada has three. The first two Directors live, respectively, in New York and in Switzerland. And yet Skate Canada has to be very careful with its limited funding. What the hell.
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Skate Canada are truly pathetic. Instead of supporting their elite skaters, especially V/M, and growing the sports at a grass-roots level, they are instead engaged in a pissing match with Canton/DSC/insert Russian coach name here, while putting all their political capital behind a shitty team like Gilles/Poirer and whatever crap coming out of Gadabois.
DeleteI've always suspected that the reason P/I were never shown any love by Skate Canada is because of Mitch's father's association with the Mariposa Club; more than likely, he didn't kiss SC's ass hard enough. You would think that after P/I moved to Gadabois, SC would finally throw some political behind them, but no. How frustrating for a beautiful SKATING team like P/I.
I'm glad the comments here actually address SC's favouritism towards their lapdogs, G/P. I've been reading around the other forums and others are blaming V/M's return for many of the young, Canadian teams splitting up. It's like SC has completely sold their farm team and put all their eggs into one basket, anointing G/P as the next team in the coming quad.
DeleteSkate Canada has always been an embarrassment. Instituionally speaking, there's a chip missing. Everything is at soap opera level to Skate Canada.
Delete2016 Canadian Nationals was really the low point of SC's incompetence. By over-marking G/P the way they did, and then naming the now-defunct Gadabois team of P/O ahead of P/I to the 4CC and Worlds teams signaled to any up and coming ice dancers that skating is irrelevant; it's all about currying favour with SC. Anybody blaming V/M's return to the scene is missing the bigger picture.
DeleteAs with all of SC's short-sightedness and stupidity, the decision to back G/P will blow up in their stupid faces, if it hasn't already done so.
I fear for Weaver/Poje; they are going to get embarrassed at Nationals for no other reason than they are a cheap bargaining chip for SC.
SC are the WORST.
But I look at the USFSA, which I used to think was light years ahead of SC in the competence department, and it can be short-sighted. The Shibs, for example, were sacrificial lambs in the D/W narrative driven by the USFSA. I don't understand why the USFSA all but appears to tell Mirai Nagasu to get out of the sport but is endlessly supportive to other head cases in the ladies division.
DeleteI agree that W&P are expendable to SC. They are practically in P/I's previous situation now, scrambling around for a staging area where they can re-commence climbing the ladder.
Those photos really illustrate how sad it is that Skate Canada seems to be collectively blind as bats. P/I are a lovely team and G/P are a mess. Horrifying to think that dreck could end up on the podium.
ReplyDeleteG/P's tweets about breaking the Canadian record are so pathetic. Those are national scores that they got at a NATIONAL EVENT which means that score counts as next to nothing.Judging by the tweets you would think they broke the WR. First piper crying like a child on twitter for them deservingly not making the olympic team, now this? jesus.
ReplyDeleteThey're not going to change. I think it's a pity that after 2018 they're going to be Canada's signature dance team, but that is obviously what Skate Canada wants. Everything about GP is up Skate Canada's alley. I think if they could have kicked VM to the curb sooner, they would have.
DeleteFirst of all, it's Bourne and KRAATZ, not Krantz. Second of all, the OP has fully admitted to not following ice dance/figure skating in general for that long, which is very clear when a statement like the one made in this post is made. Comparing B&K to G&P is utterly ridiculous. B&K had amazing, amazing edge work and strength of knee and blade, unsurpassed in the ice dance world at their time. The reason they struggled for a long time is not because they "[weren't] that good", but because they had poor material given to them by coaches who didn't know better at exactly the wrong points in their career, and then they got caught up in their own hype and the whole "bloc judging" thing, which was not entirely false, but also not AS instrumental in their lack of results as they (and SC) sold to the North American media.
ReplyDeleteG&P completely lack strength of edge and cover their lack of basic skating skills (especially on her part) with "personality" and "quirkiness".
I'm not going to agree with you about Bourne & Kraatz. I do acknowledge that if I'm called out on misspelling names I'll be riddled with holes.
DeleteMore saliently, Bourne & Kraatz had an aggressive, "Comin at ya!" dance style that seems right up SC's alley, and no matter how the skating skills compare (I don't agree w/you about B&K's), I believe it is the strenuous cheerleader style that most appeals to SC, something G&P have in common with B&K.
Then you are basically showing your ignorance about actual ice dance skills, or at least of ice dance in that period (which again, you have readily admitted to not following carefully).
DeleteI actually disagree with the comparison of styles as well - B&K were actually well-known in their early days for the naturalness of their style in comparison to the high drama that was popular at the time. They did have a natural bent towards "perkiness", but they also had programs in their long career that encompassed many different styles. They never tried to mask their deficiencies by being deliberately odd or OTT in the way G&P have.
I don't think I'm showing anything other than that I disagree with you. I have just rewatched their 2002 Salt Lake City free dance, which had countless running steps, scampering, and getting up on her flats from Shae. Call it choreography if you like; I think that's an excuse.
DeleteI am quite familiar enough with ice dance from the era - am a big fan of Anassina Peizerat despite THEIR excesses, stylistically and thematically, because their edgework and their musicality were so powerful it overcame even the hideous worst of their program concepts ("Liberty" comes to mind).
Sure, it's a personal thing that Shae Lynn Bourne shows up on camera and I want to run screaming from the room.
Apart from that we're going to disagree on what "naturalness" means in the context of that era. Ice dance was highly theatrical and dramatic, and of course, the costuming belonged in Vegas. I don't think "cheerleader" is any more natural a performance style than other styles that characterized the era. There was a lot of "we have this great abstract idea and we are going to execute it with painful literalism". However, skating is skating. I have stylistic issues with B&K, mostly her. I can't stand her. But that's apart from my opinion of her skating. There are skaters I'm not crazy about for one reason or another whom one must acknowledge are very strong skaters.
I'm curious though, at what point you received the impression that I have not followed ice dancing for that long?
Once upon a time, I was the biggest Bourne and Kraatz fan and obsessively watched all their programs to the point I knew each and every step. I've since gone back and re-watched all their programs and today, I can't help but cringe. Undoubtedly, they had great edges but you have to agree, they shoved "hydroblading" so far the viewers throats that it became annoying.
DeleteIt's hard to comment whether they deserved more titles or even Olympic medals because let's face it, ice dance was a huge joke in the late 90's - early 2000s. You could literally fall during your free dance and still come out winners. What I see now is how unevenly matched they were-Victor was a technician and Shae-Lynn was in it for the face time.
They won all those national titles because nobody in Canada could challenge them. My fear will be this will happen post 2018 when G/P will have nobody to compete against them. Think Piper's tweets about breaking the Canadian Record are annoying? Just wait and see what they'll have to say after their numerous national titles. Gag.
"What I see now is how unevenly matched they were-Victor was a technician and Shae-Lynn was in it for the face time."
DeleteHah. Victor had the great edges. A lot of the choreography gave Shae Lynn a break from holding an edge, often deploying Victor's ability to hold one as an aid.
Tanith Belbin has always been a big fan of Shae Lynn. Needless to say, Belbin identified with her, having been in a similar situation where her partner was seen as the stronger skater. Apart from smiley, upbeat and very blonde, however, I don't see many similarities between Bourne and Belbin as skaters.
DeleteMy comparison of Bourne & Kraatz with Gilles & Poirier goes more (but not entirely) to packaging. That aggressive, almost ruthless projection of FUN. The blonde, perkier than thou woman paired with the partner who is technically stronger than she. I say not entirely, because Virtue Moir clearly leave them in the dust, and yet I think that package just feels more "right" to Skate Canada. The nonstop smiley-scary thing, to the point of inflexibility and shutting everything else out.
Paul and Carol Lane deserve all the flack that come their way. What they did to Vanessa was nothing short of disgusting and shows you just what they are willing to do for the sake of themselves. It's no wonder SC loves G/P...dangle the carrot and they will do anything you want them to do.
DeleteI disliked how they damned Vanessa with faint praise. The original article that came out explaining the switch quotes Carol Lane and Paul Poirier directly, but also very obviously used them as anonymous sources. This way, they could knock Vanessa's looks - but what a hard worker!
DeleteVanessa lacked Paul's grace, they said. Clearly that was code, because certainly the very word we'd use to describe the Piper Gilles who first began skating with Paul Poirier is graceful.
The Scarborough-ites who posted on the skating forums back then really tried to hype the idea that Piper Gilles brought out Paul's "masculinity", meaning, they had a hot man woman chemistry. It was beyond obnoxious, homophobic, sexist, and absurd.
"Smiley, upbeat and very blonde" is a perfect description of Tanith's skating, which I never could get into. My husband used to call her kind of skating "Happy-Go-Freaky" for her over-the-top facial expressions and nauseating perkiness.
Deletedo you think grishuk and platov were overrated and over scored as so many people claim or do you think they were rightfully scored? Just curious, since I have never seen you bring them up (in any posts)on your blog.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard for me to say. I've read so much about the 1994 Olympics, including one book that maintains they were overscored, that the judges were blinded by speed. Looking at the 1994 program again, I'd say if the judges were blinded by speed, it was by how quickly and how fast G&P were in general moving. I don't think they were covering more ice than Torvill Dean or Usova Zhulin.
DeleteG&P slowed down quite a bit in the second half of their fd, and Grishuk got up on her flats quite a bit. Torvill and Dean, OTOH, were in the same hold throughout much of their free dance, with lovely clean edges, close blades and good unison, punctuated by lifts and highlights. I noticed Torvill didn't do the twizzles that most of the women were doing (under their partner's arm). Usova did one traveling on the same track ahead of Zhulin, without being supported by him. I think an argument could be justified for any placement of the top three finishers. They all skated with secure direction changes, all had decent unison. At the time GP's fd was seen as more complex than Torvill and Dean's, but in retrospect I don't know that it is at the blade level. T&D were in the same hold a lot but constantly changing direction. Usova & Zhulin were a surprise. I remembered them as slow the last time I'd watched it, but when I rewatched, not so slow. Maybe even the best balanced program of the three, not dependent on showcasing mostly one thing, as G&P were dependent upon being quick and fast, and T&D on showcasing a quiet ballroom posture with soft, smooth edges, changing direction frequently. It's difficult because I believe back then a fd was really a freestyle, there wasn't the opportunity to compare required elements.
In 1998 I think it's a near thing between A&P and G&P (I would have had K&O third). Grishuk was a joke at the time but if you strip the program of the nonsense parts (the costumes, the posturing) the skating is pretty impressive.
Delete"I've read so much about the 1994 Olympics, including one book that maintains they were overscored, that the judges were blinded by speed". If you remember the title of the book, I would appreciate if you gave its title.
DeleteTo be honest I will never understand G&P's successes. I think Russian politics played a big role in them. In the 1994 Rock'n Roll, they were fast indeed, but as the OC said, they took the breath in the middle of the dance and they weren't much in a hold throughout the dance. Maybe nowadays being in the close hold isn't appreciated by the judges as it should be, but at the time it was very important thing (though not for the judges in Lillehammer unfortunately). G&P's FD was quite simple, it looked more difficult than it actually was. I think it's enough to compare T&D's and G&P's footwork to see which dance was more intricate.
Usova and Zhulin had a bit disappointig FD that season, though at least they didn't break any rules. Also their rhumba OD was much better, than G&P's.
I think it's not coincidence that although G&P have the biggest achievements in the history of ice dance, by not many are considered as the greatest in the history. Many people wouldn't even include them in the top 3.
I wouldn't include them in the top 3 either.
DeleteThe book in question might be one of Beverly Smith's ("A Year in Figure Skating" or "Figure Skating - a Celebration"). I can't swear to it as I read a bunch of others at the same time, but hers is a name that sticks.
Usova & Zhulin's free dance was a weird package, which is something I always hate to consider, as only the skating ought to matter. But when I was watching their feet, paying attention to the layout and to the complexity, it might be the strongest. It depends on how these things are weighed. Torvill & Dean really committed to that dance hold, to, in between small lifts and tricks, stroking in tandem/unison almost continuously with perfect control while almost continuously changing direction. Its apparent simplicity was deceptive. Grishuk had a few tricks she repeated - one is the twizzle, the other is gliding between her partner's legs.
I always assumed close hold was demonstrated in the compulsories and the od, and the free dance was a free for all. With the understanding that if the team stressed one thing too much, they could hurt themselves in the placement.
It's not unusual for someone with more than one Olympic medal to not be considered top 3. Look at Katerina Witt. I can see what she does well, but an all time great, IMO she is not.
P.S. I think Grishuk actually stumbled in the 1998 Olympic cd and the judges pretended it didn't happen.
Deletekatarina witt was amazing for her time artistry wise and was great at figures, but midori ito and at times even manley out preformed her technically. If figures were trashed at the 88 olympics, you can bet katarina wouldn't have repeated as OC.
DeleteMidori Ito, IMO, was the greatest singles skater who ever lived. Watch her 1988 short and long programs, and consider that at the time she was said to lack "artistry". This is a woman who would do an Ina Bauer into a triple. One realizes it's all about aesthetics. She wasn't heavy at all, but had a squarish build with pronounced bow legs, while Kristi Yamaguchi was delicate and traditionally feminine looking. Yet if there was ever anyone who achieved based on athleticism (and consistency) it was Yamaguchi. Even when her execution of pretty (and fairly simple) skating in betweens was beyond basic and place-holding, it got more credit from observers because it LOOKED pretty, because she was. I don't think there was really much to choose between her and Ito in "artistry" and I'd actually give the edge to Ito because of speed and more difficulty in her jump set ups. It's not her fault she had short arms.
DeleteOne of the things that kills me when I watch that grainy video is Ito crushes the short program and the free skate in 1988. She crushes both. Should have WON both. Yet the commentators are excited that she scored as well as she did (she got some 5.6s and 5.7s). Yes, ok, compulsory figures weren't her forte, but her free skate and her short had nothing to do with her compulsory figures, and should have been scored with a clean slate.
I don't think Witt was amazing artistry wise. She was a great looking woman with boobs, was great at figures, was not graceful in the least, IMO (in 1994 she was better), she was a ferocious competitor and got it done when she needed to get it done. Her Carmen, to me, is about how she looks and not about anything she actually does with the acting portion of the skate (not that that matters). She's no great performer. I respect her because she's clutch. Even when she was having a bad skate, she never ever quit.
Thank you, I will try to find those books. Never read them.
ReplyDeleteI agree about Katarina.
G&P victories at some other events were also controversial, for example at 1997 World Championships, as well as some GP events.
I don't know how good they are. I was a figure skating fan just getting some books out from the library to try to learn a bit. My feeling is that they're not that useful once you know something. For anyone who has watched old competitions and thought "Something's off." at least one of the books validates that, but I don't think grounds it in really solid information about good skating technique. Knowing now how political the sport is, I think it's a typical skating book where it was easier at the time to train a critique on the Russians (i.e., G&G versus M&D in pairs), than to really look at anything fishy in North American skating. I have a vague memory that the book did explain why Elvis Stoiko wasn't all that (glacially slow, can't do anything but jump, as I recall).
DeleteSo they're good for old competitions. For what's going on now, I don't think there's anything better than canadablue's blog.
With G&P, when I look back, I think I expect them to be a complete joke, more running around the ice, "dancing" in place, and the actual skating part strong but basic. However, they're pretty strong skaters, considering the era. What did surprise me were the other top teams were also very strong, and there really is no reason for G&P to have dominated as they did. They were not obviously better than the other top teams. They were good enough to be competitive, that's it.
DeleteVM were stunning in the short dance today. Tracy Wilson, however, just needs to not talk. I guess part of the narrative is pretend VM had problems (that they didn't actually have) and that DL were the ones to fix them.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC2CX2w7t-M
I'm calling it now: G/P will get silver. Unbelievable especially considering Piper was in bed all the instead of practicing. I feel bad for the ice dance teams being tossed under a bus for this crap.
ReplyDeleteVery happy to see V/M get that great score though! So lovely to see them back and kicking some ass. Let's just hope it continues through Worlds.