"They figured out how to feature their closed hold rather than being ruled by it."
So glad Scott and Tessa are getting rid of crutches like closed hold. Maybe they can get rid of the skating too, and then actually get somewhere.
"Scott seems to have more core strength."
Ah, that extra core strength Scott needed to manage fat Tessa.
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| Scott's previous core strength. Tsk. |
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| Now Charlie White's core strength; he could support all of Meryl Davis's weight if her center of gravity were distributed across the strongest part of his back, his legs were braced AND he was bent over. That's the core strength ice dance is looking for. |
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| Davis White in Sochi. |
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| Nobody thinks it would have happened if you didn't agree to Gadbois. |
Watched this video URL of Virtue Moir's GPF practice:
https://youtu.be/mMHQTzmw0SU
Briefly thought - oh hey, I didn't know Tristan Rogers was an ice dance fan.
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| Igor (left) at GPF SD practice. |
And then I remembered Tristan Rogers was
(Tristan Rogers was once a soap opera superstar.)
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| Pani, this is because the Gadbois team is actually coaching P/C. |
I hope Tessa and Scott have enough open skating to prevail at the GPF short tomorrow, but my hopes are not high.
ETA, from the GPF short, a gif of the lift:
Excuse the double subtitle in this gif, but VM routinely do stuff, casually do stuff without calling attention to it, that are completely beyond the skill set of other dance teams. For example, the way Scott releases Tessa's hand before the lift, so she simply gets herself into the entrance position by following his glide with her own glide. Then once she has stepped in, observe the sheer efficiency and stability - and complete security and confidence - with which Scott pulls down her free leg onto his thigh. There is no steadying. It's seamless, not a wasted movement.
Finally (I think) after watching the Universal broadcast of the GPF short dance, my impression Ben Agosto is completely in the tank for P/C, far more than Tanith, which surprises me considering Tanith's husband. He made no comment on Cizeron's obvious stumble at the top of the program, but gushed over their twizzles because they were in unison. Look, a unicorn!
As a casual spectator, it was painfully obvious that the "coaching" team had zero interest in Virtue and Moir. There were times were MFD was seen speaking with them, but I can't imagine the feedback was anything constructive or valuable. On the other hand, there were clear instructions and form corrections given to P/C. Heck, I think I saw more conversation between Scott and Slipchuk...
ReplyDeleteI suspect that the coaching situation is basically a charade, and Scott and Tessa don't actually have much interest in their coaching team. With the caveat that I'm suspicious of body language interpretation, even my own. When I compare them to the interaction with Marina, I felt that they would lock in with Marina after a practice or skate. When I look at Tessa at this GPF practice, I believe I see that "click" part of her, you know when her brain is not engaged but she's doing the polite thing. In any event, my suspicion is the reverse - they don't particularly see themselves as benefitting from Maria France's observations.
ReplyDeleteAbout the charade, after they'd skated, the announcer name checked Marie France as their coach, and then we saw a cold spot of her watching them skate. It appeared contrived to me. Unlike the million other times the camera has shown the couch watching his or her skater, Marie France appeared to be standing where she was standing specifically so she could emote watching them for a camera set up there to show that to us.
DeleteWell, if you read/watch her interviews, Marie-France is a walking caricature of "emote" so much of the time that's just how her face is, lol. You could be right about it generally though.
DeleteI haven't read or watched many of her interviews - it could also be that this broadcast used the coach-cam as a feature for every team. Still, she was less than convincing.
DeleteThey didn't. For the free dance, they featured replay video highlights of Marie-France (sometimes Romain) for HD, PC, and VM. No extended clips of Igor and Fabian for CB, Zhulin for BS, or Marina and Massimo for the Shibutanis, just the standard closing shot of a coach clapping. For Marie-France we even got split screens of her reacting to teams.
DeleteP/C with that horrendous short program 78! within two points of VM's 80.5. ludicrous.
ReplyDeleteNot WITHIN two points. 2.64 points if we want to be precise.
DeleteUnbelievable, right? Stumbling right from the top. I'm afraid of it setting up to win the free, which would be a travesty.
ReplyDeleteBUT the Shibs moved into second, which is kind of how I pictured GPF if the world hadn't gone totally evil, which is sort of has. It should really be Shibs v. VM.
ReplyDeleteI think VM will win bc where will PC pick up 5 points really to over take them? if we use NHK scores. i thought Vm were flawless in the short.
ReplyDeleteV/M shattered their own WR, Shibs scored higher than P/C,P/C are in third and C/B are last. WOW. I really didn't see any of this coming.
ReplyDeleteP/C were not well served bracketed between V/M and the Shibs. Skating directly after V/M really exposed them. As has been noted before, these mistakes from them aren't new. They're made frequently, but they still get spectacular scores, as they did today. Just not enough to beat V/M or the Shibs. V/M and the Shibutanis are two of the most musical skaters in ice dance, and IMO that's an attribute more the exception than the rule. Each team shows wonderful unison.
DeleteAlong with wondering just how weak a skater Guilluame is compared to his partner, I'm wondering about this 'soft knees' stuff. Meryl Davis faked edges by inclining her boot as she exited an element. I'm curious of they are really getting power out of those knees or if it's just them Duchesnay-ing it in a crouch to aid their stability.
ETA cracking up over at FSU at pani saying Dubreil Lauzon need to learn from Marina and Igor how to manage two top teams.
In the NHK short Guillaume failed to grab his skate in the twizzles. Here, he had several stumbles but I don't think they were in elements, although that "lift" looked really bad.
DeleteTheir were several mistakes in P/C's short dance including that terrible lift, however even if they do poorly in their free skate unless the Shibs skate clean I have a feeling the judges will inflate P/C's scores to place them in second. I personally find it funny that P/C fans on FSU think that when it comes to artistry its P/C>>>>V/M. Yeah, because arm flailing and Gabi's poor extension along with having no chemistry certainly can't be topped. Ballet on ice my ass.
DeleteAnd don't get me started on their crazy mean spirited fans that trash
every skater who isn't P/C, Every time I want to see Shibs or V/M performance on YT,I scroll down and see poorly written english comments calling tessa fat and french comments that are paragraphs long rambling about North american skaters being over scored.
Well, you called it. At least the Shibs made it onto the podium. Maybe what's happening here is incremental. First V/M defeat P/C decisively in the fall competitions. The Shibs are allowed to defeat P/C in one segment. I think the Shibs are an obvious lock to repeat as U.S. champs, and maybe the World podium will flip P/C and the Shibs.
DeleteNone of the P/C fans have a single clue about ice dance. They grab things from what they've read and claim Guilluame can control his speed effortlessly, that he's brilliant, but are never able to cite a specific portion of his program where he demonstrates these things. I'm more convinced now that Gabriella is better than he his.
Can we have some "feet only" footage of P/C's FD? There's no intricate footwork and their so called beautiful edges have no depth. Sad part is they spend so very little time in closed dance holds and have no excuse why they can't add more substance to their footwork. Let's not even talk about their lifts.
DeleteI just deleted a previous comment that said I'd try. It's been so long since I've done it, I can only recall a very sloppy attempt with windows movie maker and a censor bar hack. Later I figured out how to do a cleaner job, but it was w/a different program. Canadablue does this very well.
DeleteExcellent description of P/C's "beautiful edges." If the so-called beautiful edges can't do anything, what is the point? The skaters aren't secure, the edges aren't strong and deep, and as you note their footwork is rudimentary and they can't dance in close hold. They appear to me to be an affectation, not actually something they can use to, you know, skate a program.
I'll do my best to get to that this coming week some time - have since switched computers and will need to reinstall some software, but it's not a huge job. :)
Delete-canadablue
Thanks canadablue. I think I finally did a decent job of it in Avidemux, but I'm having issues getting the edits to save on the actual video. It's been a long time.
DeleteMy question is, what good are (presumably) soft knees and quiet edges if you can't do anything with them. They also take many many more strokes than do V/M - if the edges are so soft and so controlled, why aren't those edges doing their job? Why can't P/C's edges support complex choreography and high level execution? Why is everything so elementary?
I love what I'm seeing here. Hoping the top three stay the same for the free. C/B is last place is as satisfying as the Shibs placing ahead of craptastic P/C
ReplyDeleteYeah, C/B were an added bonus.
DeleteI'm preplexed by P/C's SD scores really. I watched their NHK and GPF programs back to back to see what improvement they've made to deserve those marks. Just as I thought - Today's performance was even worse than what they performed at NHK. O_o Guillaume was seriously off today. Their legs? Yikes Shouldn't be even remotely close in scores with Shibs. Yes, I'm truly dumbfounded
ReplyDeleteyep. i agree. i think they will be overscored in FD to take silver and Shibs 3rd.
DeleteI'm working with a theory here now that Gabriella is actually a stronger skater than Guillaume, and Guillaume is the proverbial pretty face packaged to create the illusion there's more there than there is. In today's sp, Gabrielle didn't have a problem extending both legs in space despite the team having a super awkward step into their rotational lift, the one where Guillaume squats really close to the ice and rotates there. Why is he down there all the time - that, or he's standing up straight on two feet while she does some stuff? Where's the "normal" lift positions for a guy, like the one they did in 2014, like the ones every other guy does?
DeleteWhat if that pitiful non-lift that substitutes for a straightline in the gif one post down was designed that way because if Gabrielle doesn't close the circle, gravitational center wise, Guillaume will stumble? What if it's all him - he has to swing her around without finesse because he isn't good enough to have finesse?
In the video of their 2014 Worlds program, she shows stronger, more confident, and more engaged with the audience than he was.
Anyway, the Charleston or swing section of their short program shows they have no rhythm whatsoever, no attempt to even match their timing or their body positions/leg lines at a level above cursory. I'm just thinking it's him. I think his free leg is always sloppier than hers as well, not that either one is anything to write home about.
V/M just won their first GPF title no this is not a drill! :O
ReplyDeleteIs it too early to start a Shibs wuzrobbed thread? I don't think they could have beaten V/M who are skating out of this world, but that P/C beat them in the FD with that large a margin?
ReplyDeleteIrritated, but at least the Shibs were allowed to beat them in the short. Ice dance is all about narrative, as we know. The narrative now could be they are creeping up on P/C.
DeleteI'm more concerned the narrative now will be for P/C to overtake V/M in the Olympic year. Let's face it, they weren't going to be allowed to dominate the entire quad and this was the perfect opportunity to have the off year if there ever was one.
DeleteSidenote: I can't believe the Shibs were ever beaten by Chock and Bates.
I've hesitated to say this for fear of jinxing anything, but fuck it. Vis a vis P/C, and taking into account the fiction we must maintain that P/C are a world class team, V/M are being scored as they should always have been scored, with a decisive margin. It wasn't close at NHK; it wasn't close at the GPF. In the second Olympic cycle vis a vis D/W, D/W would get massive scores no matter how they skated, while V/M were scored against an abstract concept of absolute perfection, and even when they met that standard, they'd be lowballed.
DeleteAgainst P/C that's not what I'm seeing. I thought their FD performance at NHK was stronger, but it was comfortably ahead (properly so) of what was considered a much improved FD performance by P/C. Something's up. I wouldn't bet the farm, but I also do not think V/M would do all of this bullshit about going to Gadbois unless they got some pretty strong guarantees in return. I doubt very much P/C were brought up to speed. If P/C had any brains, they'd understand that VM wouldn't go to Gadbois if they actually had to pretend they were on the same level as P/C - they're too old, too smart, too experienced to buy into that crap. As soon as it was announced V/M were going to Gadbois, P/C ought to have figured it was over.
I'm often wrong - things are often much worse than I think they are, but here I'm assuming that Virtue Moir are not at all as they pretend they are. Whatever they say is, as usual, the opposite of the truth. They came back for a second Olympic gold. They'll skate wherever and say wherever - whatever politics demand, and do it with a smile. But they also know they remain the best ice dancers ever, and if they skate like that, they wanted a guarantee they wouldn't again get screwed over for some garbage team. For them, the politics are ok because they also actually deserve the wins.
I can't believe the Shibs were ever allowed to defeat Chock & Bates. I wish I knew what happened last season to absolutely reverse course. I don't believe the Shibs found the magic formula, suddenly began skating like this instead of that, suddenly found their identity blah blah blah. It was, as with everything in ice dance, politics.
They might be one of the most screwed over teams in figure skating. They had to be repressed lest they come too close to D/W - remember that one time they defeated D/W in TES? They remained with Marina, who, as the coach of the 2010 and 2014 Olympic gold medalists (put 2014's in quotes), likely was pushed down on the list so other coaching centers could get their turn (another reason V/M couldn't go back to Canton - no way Canton would be permitted 3 Olympic golds in a row).
Maybe the Shibs are being set up for 2022.
Part of me remains incredulous that P/C could imagine they're competitive with V/M on any level. The other part of me is horrified that it might be true - that they actually might think they could legitimately compete with them.
DeleteIt seems to me vm found a way to be guaranteed gold at next years olympics
ReplyDeleteWell, they will deserve it on the skating merits, by a measure of infinity. Still, if you are implying that they cut a deal to train at Gadbois while acting all humble and just happy to be in the mix, and in return they'd be permitted to sail to a 2018 Gold, I wouldn't argue with you.
DeleteHave no fear: Shawn Restatt will be back to downgrade VM's levels. He was absent here and Judy Bloomberg couldn't do it by herself. Yeah, I'm cynical.
ReplyDeleteI think Shawn Restatt was a player/prime mover in the scheme to give D/W the gold in 2014, but he definitely was not acting alone. Virtue and Moir's own team, own Federation, betrayed them. If a deal has been set to not block Virtue and Moir this time in exchange for whatever, including talking up Gadbois, then it doesn't matter what Shawn Restatt does.
DeleteI feel like V/M and P/C are on lock for 1st and 2nd in 2018 while the shibs will have to fight for the bronze which is BS since it should be for the gold.
ReplyDeleteI am second to nobody but perhaps yourself and Shib ubers in my love for the Shibs, but they are the second strongest ice dance team competing now. V/M are easily ahead of them. I hope the Shibs are being set up for 2022.
DeleteP.S., my hope is VM skate clean - if so, they will win gold. And I hope the Shibs get silver. I do not question that they DESERVE gold, but the fact is VM returned and VM are the better ice dance team. That was my only regret about VM's return - the Shibs had finally crawled out from under the bus. The ISU suddenly remembered Davis White were retired and it might be ok to actually score the Shibs as they skated. Even though they train with Marina, and Marina has been put on a championship time out in order to give other coaching centers a turn - well, in order to let a Canadian ice dance center dominate.
DeleteIce dance being ice dance, the "sport" can't just throw P/C overboard with no warning, even though they elevated them pretty abruptly. Fingers crossed the Shibs are setting up to be the real international #2 and will take gold in Korea in 2022. Although they were certainly forced to take the long road.
I remember in 2005/6, someone posted a video of the Shibs from Nats (Intermediate? They definitely hadn't reached Novice yet), and commented "these may be the 2010 Olympic champions". And I replied that no, in 2010 Maia wouldn't even be old enough to compete, and 2014 was also too soon, but I wouldn't bet against them in 2018- although 2022 was more likely to be their year.
DeleteI think my prediction is panning out nicely.
Hope you are right 12:19 PM, although if 2022 is their year, they would have had a long, long wait, through no fault of their own. All politics. They had to be kept 20 points down from D/W in order to validate that shit show, and that fed into the narrative that they were a second tier team. They were also at Canton and didn't leave Canton, despite it being obvious that no way in hell was the ISU going to let Canton get another run on World Championships, and certainly not the 2018 Olympic gold. So the commentators are busy lying to us about how come only now the Shibs are breaking out of the pack. I respect them for sticking with Marina, and I respect them for never losing faith in themselves. I don't know if they lost faith in the "sport" or not, but they persevered and never pandered in their programs. They had to get in line behind more than a decade's worth of agendas.
DeleteThe idea that the Shibs should be "fighting" for the gold - i.e., that they're even remotely in the same league as VM and could beat them even on a VM bad day and a Shibs best day - is so ludicrous that I can't even laugh.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, and while what you say is true, it is also true of every other team competing, not just the Shibs. In fact it is less true of the Shibs.
Delete" i.e., that they're even remotely in the same league as VM and could beat them even on a VM bad day and a Shibs best day"
DeleteWhile I agree that there is a clear substantial difference in the general level of skating, this is a ludicrous statement mathematically speaking. If V/M made some serious element mistakes, the Shibs could deserve to win. There's a varying mistake buffer V/M have above every team competing, but that buffer is the smallest against the Shibs and, although it is unlikely that the Shibs would deserve to win anything, it is also far from impossible.
A lot of V/M fans greatly underestimate the Shibs because they don't like their undramatic unromantic style and mistake that stylistic difference for some sort of great technical or movement deficiency. They do not have the flawless speed and control of V/M, but they are still superb and far and away the second best team currently competing. Not saying you belong to this group, and I understand your point was versus V/M, but what's ludicrous is how they are regularly dismissed as slow and unconnected in comparison to the likes of P/C. Anyone who doesn't see how the Shibs are exceptional ice dancers doesn't really grasp the fundamentals of ice dance.
Outside of the Shibs own thread on fsuniverse, they are routinely dismissed by other fans as not as fast or powerful as the other teams. Yet they far and away have the second best stroking in ice dance with more ice coverage per stroke. They employ a running blade in their elements/choreography more frequently than any team save Virtue Moir. They also have rhythm for days and can perform any rhythm.
ReplyDeleteI think just the other day someone lamented that the Shibutanis weren't musical. The Shibutanis. Not musical.
I wonder if some of the problem here is people don't know what musicality is, exactly, because they (Shib critics) lack it themselves. Nor do they really know the difference between speed and quickness.
No ice dance threads are full of more mumbo jumbo than the Papadakis Cizeron threads, and the lack of respect/appreciation accorded the Shibs comes from pure ignorance. How many people on these skating forums actually grasp the fundamentals of ice dance anyway? I'm not seeing a crowd.
Reminds me of a real pearl of a tweet an opera singer made the other day: "Shibs are great. But seeing them back to back with P/C it's a difference between students and artists."
DeleteSure. Anyone care to define what constitutes P/C's elusive, untouchable artistry? I mean, opera is a technical art but ice dance is PURE art. Technique is something that has to do with magic!
I think the same thread also finds Virtue and Moir fake, obviously lacking natural performance/expressive talent; they've obviously learned it all by rote and it shows. Not that there's anything wrong with that! They do it very well!
DeleteMy favorite response to that was an observation that those saying such things are themselves full of shit and dishonest. I agree.
Many Papadakis & Cizeron fans know their team is held up by politics. They spend all their time convincing each other on skating forums, in between bolstering their untouchable god of the dance, Cizeron.
I cracked up when one participant dared to wonder what the hell Cizeron's sd costume had to do with swing. :)
Here's what I believe is happening - Papadakis & Cizeron fans were confident their team would defeat Virtue and Moir. VM fans worried Papadakis & Cizeron would defeat Virtue and Moir. Just look at the predictions threads. Instead, not only did VM beat P/C, they beat them soundly, despite not being absolutely flawless. Meantime, the protocols took (relative) note of P/C's flaws, at least vis a vis VM.
That's not how it's supposed to work. I think the P/C fans (and many V/M fans) anticipated that it would be D/W v. V/M redux, with P/C gifted while their flaws are ignored, and V/M needing to be perfect to even stay within hailing distance. That's not how it played out. It wasn't close.
AND you can believe it didn't get past any P/C fan that the Shibs defeated P/C in the short program. That's why we're reading how "academic" the Shibs are, and how they lack the power and ice coverage of the "top teams."
Listen, we are living in a world where reality is optional.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOnMfWhI-IE
ReplyDeleteThis press conference is hilarious- Scott is so clearly "I'll play along like I promised, but you guys know I'm over this shit".
Watching it now, thanks. I get the feeling Scott misses Canton (him seeking out interaction with Alex Shibutani), but you do what you have to do, and they're not giving a third ice dance gold in a row to a team coached by Marina Zoueva.
DeleteMy eyebrows raised when Scott appeared to become irritated at the suggestion that the lyrical programs used by VM, P/C, etc. reflect a trend. Of course they reflect a damn trend. Of course they're political choices, they're p.r., etc. Alex, too, seemed to get a bit edgy about it, although I'd believe him as genuine every day and twice on Sunday over how the other two teams represent themselves in this sort of context.
DeleteThe teams all seemed pretty bored, the mileage they've all put in at press conferences like this one showed and then some. I didn't find the questions particularly stupid, as they often are, but the teams didn't do much to conceal their boredom with the exercise. For that matter, the entire room lacked any kind of energy. The Shibs' remarks about how they developed their program, arranged the music, and how they were not just invested in the music "but in the movement" were the most engaging. Everyone else was phoning it in. Did roll my eyes a bit when Gabriella (whom I like as a personality) claimed they wanted to do something different and more difficult this season. That's how you play it, straight out of the D/W handbook. Don't do it, but say you did.