Saturday, September 30, 2017
Papadakis / Cizeron free dance. I want to say zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz because IMO, it is, but that's not really a credible critique. What is a valid critique is the fact that their "lifts" in this thing are rated L4. Talk about rigging the game.
The skating is open, the holds are one sided - one of them hanging onto the other's shoulder or forearm, and the skating is slow. Unison is apparently not a priority. But at least this choreography and music has the climactic ending some think VM's fd lacks.
Oh wait.
Crossing fingers and every appendage I have, I do think the 2018 gold is VM's pretty much as the gold was DW's in 2014, come what may, unless one member of the team missteps, egregiously, in a way visible to the average viewer. That said, Moonlight Sonata, as choreographed here, does not accomplish very much in the way of a conventional P/C emo narrative that appeals to their most invested fans. It will be such a miscarriage of justice not only if P/C stand atop the podium, but if they're second. There is no way emotion and sensation can sweep aside skating considerations with this program enough to get away with defeating the Shibs, Hubbell Donohoe, and quite a few more. Just imagine if Alexandra Paul and Mitch Islam had presented this program at any point during the period of their careers when it seemed they had a shot to break though to the top five. This would have been dismissed as weak, dull, inferior skating skills, lacking impact - the entire mash-up that passes for evaluating a competitive figure skating program. I'm retroactively offended on Paul Islam's behalf. This program is every damning with faint praise Paul Islam's critics (including their own Fed) claimed Paul Islam was, only P/C are actually all those things.
P.S. - as to multidirectional skating, there isn't any. Not even the fake-out kind.
P.P.S. - When Marie France talked about P/C's rise from a 15th place team one year to world champions the next, she talked about their programs and packaging. I just find that a contemptible aspect of the sport. Anyone, even the shittiest team, can deserve to be world champion if they find the right "package". The job is done in the music selection and program layout and choreography. If that's true - most people who comment on the sport speak as if it is - then how is it a sport? Why is it when a insta-rise like this one occurs, nobody says - they improved their speed? They acquired more powerful run of blade? Or anything having to do with skating skills? No, somehow the judges in the sport are so incompetent that world class skill - which, it seems, everyone possesses - can be completely hidden from them by the wrong program, and they only have a lightbulb moment when the correct formula is hit upon to showcase the dance team in question.
P,P.S. For an element to be legit L4, in my opinion there should be no way to hack it so that somebody who just started Canskate might be able to do it. There should be no way that a lift is L4 with the guy skating in one line on two feet while the woman dropping from kneeling on his chest (and clutching him w/both hands), to kneeling on his stomach qualifies for the change of position feature.
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lol this fd almost put me to sleep and I couldn't watch the end. Same boring program. Their twizzles r ridiculous. Their lifts are h placing and holding her in position. She's like his handbag.
ReplyDeleteSigh I thought the same too *cringe* It's a repeat through & through (with modified lifts). Same feeling for opening & ending poses.
DeleteThe lifts aren't deserving of the name. I kept thinking "Seriously?" They don't even fake difficulty with a lot of two footed, non skating acrobatics as D/W would do.
DeleteIf the skating part of figure skating is dumbed down any further, particularly ice dance, how can it remain an Olympic sport? All it has going for it at the moment is that the IOC has no more idea what difficult skating looks like than your average fan or sportswriter.
oc
Exactly they basically vogue on ice and squat to get speed and bend and bend and bend some more or "speed" it's horrible my god I think Davis white were bettter I think Davis white lifts were a little harder
DeleteWhile I think Davis White overall were still worse and did less skating (at least P/C stroke), I completely agree about the lifts.
DeleteTwitter is not being kind, from what I've seen. One noted that P/C were setting up to win an Olympic medal with basically 20 seconds of in hold skating (I think that's generous).
If P/C tried to skate Paul/Islam's Olympic year free dance, someone would lose a limb within the first step sequence.
ReplyDeleteI knew the straight line lift photo was deceptive - no way she'd be holding herself independently for long (and he's two-footing it, unlike most of the men who execute these on one foot). Sure enough, fast forward to the free dance and he's wobbling while she moves through it like a newborn colt.
It's not even the execution, it's the mechanics of the lift itself. He's freaking two footing it but that's ok. It'll get L4 and 3s in GOE. It's almost as obscene as D/W being allowed to go through the 2014 pre-Olympic cycle with that old ass 2009 twizzle sequence.
DeleteI'm just irritated because Paul Islam did get criticized, directly, in the comment booth (looking at you Tanith Belbin) for being tepid, or small, or blah blah blah. This is what tepid, weak, small skating looks like. THIS. It's most egregious in the lifts but everything is weak beer. The twizzles. How far apart they skate at all times. And they're slow.
11:56am I just watched Paul Islam's NHK free and in the first two minutes they have done more in hold, more changes of direction, and demonstrated a higher level of skill than P/C do now. It's just depressing, how lower and lower the bar is set.
DeleteI find it interesting that with all this talk of French Feds wanting to suppress P/C's new programs from coming out, they "allowed" only the FD to be shown (now) for the public. Is it because with the FD being shown as so OG worthy ready as is in reflection of French skaters (or better yet, it's a blatant show of "oh see how so much better Moonlight Sonata is than the Canadians' Moulin Rouge ")? And that score of what 120+ ??? On first outing? Why indeed ...
ReplyDeleteP/C are a joke and so is their skating. All they do is two foot it around the rink and emote as if they are somehow rediscovering dance in a whole new way (newflash - you aren't, guys). At least D/W tried to appear athletic and uphold this discipline as a sport - instead of acting as if they are above it like P/C and trying to water down everything so that their subpar skating skills will be accepted.
ReplyDeleteThe whole narrative that they are too innovative, too free spirited for the short dance is such bullshit and I lose respect for MF every time she implies it.
If anything, I'm glad that VM have come back to hopefully block the frauds (P/C) from ever getting Olympic Gold because by the next quad, I expect a couple of promising juniors/very young seniors to make a huge splash and for the judges to finally get sick of P/C and their "revolutionary" ice dancing.
I expect the Shibs to stick it out for at least one more Olympic cycle.
DeleteThe "innovative artiste" schtick pisses me off so much. Please. There's having a consistent style, and there's being stubborn about trying new things & showing artistic growth. P/C are willing to try new things only within their lyrical/contemporary box. There is a contempt towards doing a variety of rhythms that I cannot like. So like you, I am glad that V/M came back so that they could show that the Emperor has no clothes, whatever Didier and his sycophants may trumpet.
DeleteP/C's Moonlight Sonata is STALE. There are people who harped on V/M about their "romantic, lovey-dovey" programs, but V/M did not do variations of a free dance for FOUR YEARS STRAIGHT. P/C could not change it up just once this quad? Or not willing enough? I'm beginning to think they're not capable enough of changing it up.
If you put P/C in a time machine and dropped them in the Vancouver quad, they would have absolutely hated it. Not only were compulsories still in force (to separate the wheat from the chaff), but they would have had to contend also with the original dance portions. They wouldn't have been able to rely on just the free.
Also WTF at the two-footed lift. Islam, Poje and Moir can all do one-footed feats of balance with their partners. Can't Papadakis not let her partner do all of the heavy lifting (pun absolutely intended)?
Pechalat/Bourzat must be privately rolling their eyes at P/C. Now that was a great, versatile French team that did not get as rewarded as they should have.
Sorry (not sorry), but Gordeeva/Grinkov still have the superior Moonlight Sonata. They even had more exciting music cuts.
Lyrical / contemporary has been the warhorse of ice dance since 1984 - 33 years. And yet because it doesn't follow a specific vocabulary but is rather a mish mash of ballet-type styling and modern styling (not really the actual steps or moves), the audience doesn't need to be informed in order to evaluate it, and can declare this mush "innovative." It's the oldest style of the modern age. Torvill & Dean mainstreamed it when they did actual contemporary in 1984 in their Bolero free dance. Bolero has a whole lot more in common with Carmen than it does with the mess put out by many contemporary / lyrical teams, because it borrowed the actual movement style of what is still called modern dance / movement.
DeleteAnd Le Parc, from which P/C's "breakthrough" free dance was borrowed, was first staged in the early 1990s.
Delete8:10pm I don't think P/C are being stubborn. They're just incapable. They're exposed when they try a different rhythm or different choreography. They have no real control over their blades outside a very narrow range of movement.
DeleteI don't care about artistic growth (I don't even know how that's defined in figure skating, nor in many other pursuits, for that matter) unless it's defined as an increasing ability to skate a wide variety of rhythms (skate, not move one's upper body to it) with increasing refinement (cleanliness and control of the edge), power, and size each year.
This discussion kind of reminds me of debates about actors. Oh so and so isn't a good actor - they are always themselves.
Unless the performer is a utility player in a repertory company, and unless the performer relies on a lot of tics and tricks, what's important in acting performance is believability, not versatility. Can the performer embody the requisite emotional and psychological and personality characteristics of the human being they're playing? Performers only have themselves to work with, and it doesn't have to be limiting.
Let's not forget Davis White did the same free dance for five years straight. They might change the costumes, a la Die Fleudermaus, but it was the exact same program rearranged so as to correspond with musical highlights that facilitated the impression of dynamicism. All their programs fall apart when examined. It's the same program. Their tango was the same as their waltz was the same as their pop opera.
Deleteolympics happen only every 4 years. The majority of people who watch ice skating do so then. It wouldn't surprise me if they are the ones who will think P/C's program as superb and worthy of the OG.
ReplyDeleteI don't know any casual viewers who thought D/W were better than VM. Most mentioned to me they were slow and boring. These were people who knew I was a skating fan and liked ice dance, but that's it. I think that, viscerally, a casual audience will know who is better. This can get muddied when one team has more musicality and another better skating skills, and ergo, a casual audience feels that the musical team gave a better performance, but that's not been an issue for ten years in this sport. Since VM have been seniors, the best skaters have also been the best performers, and the every 4 years viewers recognize that.
DeleteEven within the sport, there is the failure to distinguish between the better performance and the best skating. If it's a sport, and a distinction exists, the best skating should win.
From my observation, so far other skating disciplines are following this. But not ice dance. This more obvious during D/W quad (after V/M OG Vancouver win). Ice dance is where skaters can easily fudge skating skills. Not surprising that the dance programs that wins is the one that wows or make people feel for it, rather than actually mesmerized by the skating skills (technicality).
DeleteIn 2014 Virtue and Moir had both the best skating skills and the programs that made people feel.
DeleteI see that it's going to be a very painful time for many of you when P/C win Olympic gold. You'd think you'd all have learned after Sochi, but no, it seems.
ReplyDeleteNo, VM would not have returned at all if another Sochi were in store. It is beyond obvious they were given the green light before they came back, and they paid their self-abegnating, ass kissing dues last year.
DeleteThere is no scenario under which P/C could actually WIN Olympic gold. As with their World medals, they could be given one without earning one, but that is unlikely this season unless VM fall down.
However, I would be very happy for you to describe exactly how, per the rulebook and judging criteria, and employing your own knowledge of and ability to observe superior skating skills, how P/D's skating is better than VM's, and therefore they'd deserve to win.
DeleteOycanada, it's pointless to argue with any of these kinds of individuals. Their mind is set. It's nothing about rules, how complex or high risk a program was designed and properly executed. It's all about just what's the (supposedly) right kind of music & feelings. Yes, lots of feelings...skating skills be damned
DeleteOh, I know it's all about the feels. However, when someone declares P/C are better, it's only right to ask them upon what they are basing this evaluation. However corrupt the sport is - and it certainly is - "better" is still defined by the criteria and standards set out in the rulebook, and the ability to recognize which team is best per those criteria and standards. Every VM fan can rest assured that their team is the best per ANY criteria for superior skating skills, and certainly per what is in the rules and standards by which this sport pretends to be judged. There is no question about it. Skating isn't invisible, no matter how strenuously those who write about and comment on the sport pretend that's the case. Any P/C fan who thinks P/C, as participants in an elite sport that is judged by specific rules and criteria, is the superior team and deserving of an Olympic gold in a judge SPORT, should be able to cite why P/C's skating is better than VM's. That's impossible, and even they know it.
DeleteAnon @ 7:49 PM - do you mean when P/C win Olympic gold in 2022? Because they definitely aren't going to win it in 2018 so I'm not sure who you think will be having a painful time.
ReplyDeleteActually I'm very happy with this FD because maybe finally people will see that the true masters of ice dance is Tessa and Scott. I'm wondering why nobody ask at loud what happened with the team which was on 15 place at WC in 2013/2015, and one later magically win ?
ReplyDelete1:41 am, this question was actually asked of Marie-France. Her reply was all about program and packaging. That's what I'm talking about in part of this post. There is not talk of - well, they made a massive advance in skating skills, partnering and dance skills. It was all "They didn't have the right package to make them stand out."
DeleteMy God, so not only are judges often corrupt, they are incompetent beyond words. Unable to see a team as superior until the correct music and choreography is chosen. How many other teams out of the top ten are actually deserving of a World Championship but the judges can't see it because they're not at Gadbois or somewhere where a coach can make it visible to blind judges that the skaters are actually good?
P/C fans also seem to believe that a team can simply borrow the "artistry" inherent in a piece of music, and get credit for it themselves, as many P/C fans seem to think ought to be the case for P/C and Moonlight Sonata. I absolutely expect the fans of this team to be supporting nothing but classical music programs from here til eternity, since that alone is worth ten points or so.
BTW, there were no lessons to be learned from Sochi whatsoever except that the fix was in. Every VM fan knew it long before Sochi and talked about it here and elsewhere. It was confirmed at the Grand Prix Final, where D/W were obviously outskated, and yet VM were not allowed to win. More than one D/W fan were chagrined after that competition, stating that they wanted D/W to win and thought they the better team overall, but that a corrupt outcome such as the GPF result did D/W no favors. Even D/W fans knew the fix was in. Hell, even Charlie turns aside all questions about "did you know you'd won once you finished your fd?"
The only way VM could have won in Sochi was if Meryl or Charlie fell down on the ice - hell, if they fell down and had to scramble a bit to regain their footing. Maybe. If VM blow an element or Scott trips on a toe pick, another team could win in 2018. That's it.
Gosh, that was disgusting. I can't. I just can't. Couldn't the people who choose the frauds just pick someone with some talent? Argh!
ReplyDeleteAnd what's the criteria to choose the frauds? Ugly women? Gosh!
Delete@9:20 am you're totally being obtuse about with what 9:16am trying to say. S/he is commenting on what oycanada's commenting. A farce of a (so called) rivalry and commanding of (so called superior) programs this Olympic season between V/M and P/C. No one here even commented about a skater's appearance. Fraud in terms of talent & skating skills. Duh. It's pointing out how skating SKILLS and complexity of another program are overlooked, in favour of a mediocre one. And to put salt to wound, it's so BLATANTLY OBVIOUS.
DeleteI'm the person who commented at 9:16 and 9:20. I'm talking about lack of talent but I also noted the strange fact that both women on the chosen fraud teams are ugly. I was thinking maybe that influenced the choice of the fraud team. Like a quota or something. To try and prove it's not all about appearances. So, instead of choosing a team with some skill to try and rival the real good ones, they choose teams with ugly women, even if they can't skate at all, out of a misguided sense of fairness. I'm not trying to be cruel. It's just something I really noticed.
DeleteAnon @ 9:20 - I am in total agreement that P&C and especially D&W were pushed up by politics and blatantly overmarked for weak skating skills and disguised weaknesses, but if you are trying to suggest that Meryl Davis and Gabriella Papadakis are "ugly women", I think you need to get your eyes checked. Yes, they aren't as conventionally attractive as Tessa, but they are by no means unattractive.
Delete@1:46 - Just in case you didn't see it I pressed the wrong button and my comment to you is a stand alone comment. Sorry. And I guess from now on I'll just refer to these women as non-conventionally attractive. Once again, sorry if I offended. It was not my intention.
DeleteI think it's easier to pull off a heist with fake skating than with legit subpar skating. Fake skating tends to avoid skating at all, so therefore the inferior quality of the actual skating is less apparent. Unfortunately the rules have proactively set out to enable this bullshit each year.
DeleteFeels like D/W situation all over again *sigh* Did you read in skating forums with the condescending alternative facts about v/m and their programs? Cheap & tacky are the new buzz words. They still can't answer why. To me, I think it doesn't matter what v/m decides to do. It will always be a negative . It was also apparent from last season's comeback. Some just really want them to "go away" or retire already. Makes no sense to ask of from a skilled athlete. Again, this is skating world, after all.
DeleteThere's a discussion on Goldenskate about the abysmal music cuts in P/C's free dance. Some of it is being led by non-ubers of either P/C or VM. I rewatched G&G's lp to Moonlight - the Skate Canada version - and the slow, lyrical section doesn't kick in until the second half. They start off quickly. P/C start off slowly. I had been curious as to how they'd use the fast section - I pictured a lot of hair and limbs flung about. Instead they kind of fake it through the fast section by spinning.
DeleteThe lifts are appalling. It's criminal that these qualify for L4. Some of their fans claim that low-level lifts are as difficult as others - not here they're not. Not when Gabby is not only kneeling on him, but also sitting on herself while pasting her torso to him. The straight line is embarrassing, full stop.
Sorry the lifts are still distracting me. It's not is if there's anything else going on in that program to grab one's attention.
IMO, P/C would have looked better (or faked better) with flying hair and limbs instead of doing spins in the fast section. They look like they are fighting to keep up during their spinning, and they're not actually slow spinners. The music is too fast for them.
DeleteTrue - hair, limbs and floaty skirt panels flying around have created the impression of speed before, at least on television (Davis White). Just in terms of choreography, it seems that the fast section of Moonlight was inconvenient for their skating abilities overall, so putting the spins where they are was a fallback.
DeleteI'm not musically fluent, but other than "slow, ok, real fast at this part, now slow" nothing's been created from their music cuts. It works against them, and in fact leaves the impression that they stop skating and start spinning when the music quickens, so all they're doing in this program is skating slowly, hell, skating sedately. Marry that with the "not really trying" content and we've got skating complacently.
Because it's hard to find a pulse in the music, they'll look frenetic, IMO, if they try to push for more, or even if they become possessed by the spirit of Le Danse, as was claimed for them in the Worlds Free. This is a program with a spare style. So was G&G's, but there's a difference between a spare style and spare skating. G&G showed off their absolute mastery of their blades and their perfect unison and extraordinary speed. As someone said "The hardest thing is to hold an arm still" when your run of blade is that enormous and that fast. That's not what is being exposed in this piece for P/C - they're exposed in a less flattering way and I don't see how the choreography leaves them a road out, or an available performance tactic.
I must have dozed off during a portion of Papadakis & Cizeron's free because when I rewatched, I saw that they do skate (versus spin) while a faster music segment is playing. I said skate "while" the faster music is playing because they don't skate to or with that music segment. The effect is as if PC were skating on warm-up ice while someone else's music is playing.
DeleteI understand a ballet dancer made a contribution to this free program, but I'd bet that's mostly pr for the P/C narrative. It's a terrible program, and their limited skating skills shouldn't be an impediment even to skating to Moonlight Sonata. If Marie France choreographed this she has no musicality at all. Marina Zoueva, who is musical down to every atom in her body, was able to make a desultory sack of indifference like Jessica Dube seem nearly dynamic in the blues short she skated with Sebastian Wolfe, simply by artful placement of accent moves.
Jeffrey Cirio probably contributed little to the FD. He's busy with his duties at ABT (principal dancer) and elsewhere. As a choreographer, he hasn't really made a big impact in his field yet, in part because he's still dancing a lot. Even comparing him to a dancer-choreographer of his generation, Justin Peck (NYCB, about 4 years older), Peck has made more strides as a choreographer (quantity and quality-wise). Though that may partly be down to the difference in ABT and NYCB culture, philosophy and identity... In general, ABT is big on "stars" (think Makarova/Baryshnikov/Kirkland, and in recent years, Misty Copeland) and classical & narrative ballet, while in NYCB, the dance/choreography reigns supreme.
DeleteTrue collaboration between dance and skating choreographers takes time and effort. On the non-competitive side, a good example would be Lars Lubovitch's made-for-TV feature set to Holst's "The Planets" (featuring Brian Orser, the Duchesnays, Sonia Rodriguez and other people) way back in the day. More recently, NYCB legend Edward Villella choreographed for the Ice Theatre of New York in 2013. On the competitive side, V/M, & Marina collaborated with choreographer Jennifer Swan on Carmen. That didn't come out of nowhere, because Swan was one of Tessa's dance teachers, and prior to Carmen, had worked with the V/M team on the Pink Floyd FD.
Cirio's contributions are probably cosmetic enhancements. Not actual skating choreography, but more on the movement/placement of the head/arms/hands. Having seen the Moonlight Sonata FD, I can't really discern anything P/C are doing that they haven't done before in their previous programs. Cirio being brought in is akin to that time Baryshnikov was brought on board for Debbie Thomas' "Carmen". Mischa was too busy and had very little time to make an impact on her program, but it made for great PR.
Christopher Dean was probably brought in for similar reasons. The skating world (especially today's judges, many of whom are probably close to his age), still remember the 1984 Bolero and the 1994 Rhumba. It's really good PR, never mind that Dean's record for successfully choreographing for other people is spotty (ex.: Michelle Kwan). He really can only create good programs for himself and Jane. He's not very flexible when it comes to other people.
I actually wondered why P/C chose Cirio to collaborate with. Did they connect with each other on instagram or something? Because France is not lacking for choreographers, modern, ballet or otherwise. Why not work with someone from Paris Opera Ballet? Or a French modern dance company? Just makes me wonder.
11:46pm somehow whether skaters do hire outside choreographers or not, it's all to create the (better) illusion of dance without necessarily be great at skating. At least to Ice dance discipline. The sad thing is this will be the downfall. At one point, after V/M's OG they were idealistic in their views to bring innovation to Ice dance. But the Feds themselves still want to run it old school. Sure they made a few amendments in terms of difficulty or requirement of lifts. But how to define difficulty in Ice dance is still at early stages. Why else would say, P/C or D/W's lifts be scored equal to V/M's lifts? Or even the different intricate close hold moves or change directional moves V/M does? Are there accurate understanding for those? At the present, not really ... Hence the scoring standard for judges to follow is still open to interpretation.
DeleteOh I don't think there is any difficulty in defining what is difficult. Ice Dance is deliberately dumbed down to create competition. Virtue Moir dumbed down their free dance last season, and this season it doesn't matter that their free dance is fathoms more difficult than Papadakis Cizeron, the content is valued about the same, which is ludicrous.
DeleteI think Christopher Dean has wanted to create something for contemporary skaters, or he's said he does, but he's just bad at it. He's had a shot and he can't adapt to the movement of other skaters. He is, as 11:46 says, only good at creating for him and Jane. He hasn't evolved. But he is a marquee name and for some reason a lot of people in the sport fail to ask what he's produced since 1984.At the same time, he has had his name on other people's programs in recent years and it hasn't given them a boost.
How to define difficulty in ice dance is - how do we dumb this down so as to create competition? Virtue and Moir's superiority has been extremely inconvenient to the Feds for eight years now. They have been penalized every time they demonstrate what difficulty actually is. That's what raising the bar is. Look, we can do a straight line lift where we are both traveling in the same direction and our lines match (and Scott's leg is held in front of him, towards the direction he's traveling). That lift was an enormous demand on their centers of gravity, their alignment, balance, control. The fact that they proved a lift like that should be done should have meant other lifts were downgraded, the way a double axel is no longer worth what it was once worth in ladies figure skating once they started doing triples. But it didn't happen. Virtue and Moir were told their moves, their audacious demonstration of what they could do on skates, on edges, were everything from borderline illegal to "Oh, it's hurting the timing of your step sequence." Bullshit. The sport didn't want to adjust to their skills. It's repressed ice dance and taken the difficulty out of it. I get the politics of getting rid of the compulsories, although skaters who demanded it had no foresight, including Virtue and Moir. But there's absolutely no reason to take the skating out of ice dance - it doesn't hurt the sport's popularity.
I don't remember where I read it, but one proposal I really liked was having ice dance not limit itself to a level 4. In that scenario if a lift had extra features above and beyond level 4 (as did the lift you're talking about, which he had been doing on one foot but then changed to two feet for the Olympic FD and still got level 4), they would get an extra point in base value for that lift. Same could apply to difficult steps in the sequences, twizzle/spin features etc. I could see VM racking up an extra 5-6 points on that stuff per FD, if the calling were fair.
DeleteEasily. But the point of the levels these days is to dumb things down, not reward difficulty. Unfortunately.
Delete@1:46 - Maybe it's just a matter of taste then. I honestly think Meryl is one of the ugliest women I've ever seen. I'm speaking strictly physical appearance. I don't know her. She can be a wonderful person. I don't mean to be cruel, but she looks deformed to me. Gabriella is ok but nothing compared to the other girls. I'm sorry if I offended in any way. I'm not implying I'm the prettiest person or that it's needed in the sport, I just meant that maybe that's one factor of the decision making when choosing which team will be the next fraud.
ReplyDeleteThat was painful to watch. They skate so far apart and their pseudo lifts suck so bad. Skating is terrible..it's like onion level suckage-so many layers
ReplyDeleteI re-watched P/C's FD and was going to make mention of how far apart they skate. Thank goodness Gui is tall and has a substantial wingspan because he needs all of that reach to reconnect with his partner during most of the program. The lifts are terrible, there are two footed and they cannot sustain a position longer than one second.
DeleteI think if anyone truly wants to compare these two top teams, one should look at their curves lifts. Both men are in the spread eagle position but notice the depth of curve that Scott achieves in addition to the ice coverage and speed. Look at the ladies during that lift-Gabby holds on for dear life like a newborn while Tessa maintains a strong position through the lift.
Scott's spread eagles are miraculous. The best in the business. Not only his depth of edge and control, but how perfectly he centers his center of gravity, how evenly his weight is distributed. Every other guy favors one side or the other.
DeleteGood observation about Guillame's wingspan. His partner is using him like an exercise barre half the time, just a hand perched on his arm, being taken for a ride. That's what passes for hold with them.
MS is a total bore and is basically To Build A Home version 3. Based on what I'm seeing, except for P/C ubers, skating fans are starting to see right through them. They can't hide behind their ~ethereal~ flow and ott emotion anymore. MS is like an empty wasteland. Their lifts are absolutely basic, the skating is two footed and open, and they looked super slow at times. Perhaps this would've passed as an Olympic Gold Medal performance before V/M's comeback, but if you hold this up against MR? It doesn't stand a chance. MR is jam packed full of intricate transitions, difficult lifts and challenging choreography. It's an exciting program. I have applaud MF for successfully disguising P/C's major weaknesses for so long, but the jig is well and truly up. I think in her heart of hearts she wants V/M to win the OGM anyway.
ReplyDeleteBased on MF's answers in past interviews about P/C are also to appease the French Feds & P/C that they (as coaches) are doing their job. They sound like Zueva-Igor when v/m & d/w were trained together. In the end, they (coaches) know who's paying them & results is what matters to these Feds. It's unfortunate that the farce of the scoring (& trying to equate between v/m's skills to whoever is said to next in line to succeed after them) is being screwed. This is especially concerning because what happens when v/m's departure from ice dance. Will the scoring be climbing higher & higher without merit?
DeleteWell, I doubt I'll even watch ice dance after this season. The discipline is too dodgy. I only held on this long for V/M because despite the corrupt sport, their talent is so obvious that when they win, I know it's due to their talent (even when it's not).
DeleteI think they're boring because they're not good skaters. I'm appalled that this skating and this program, empty of technical difficulty, is considered a contender for Olympic gold, but as a matter of aesthetics, I prefer the performance mode in MS here, because at least it's dry. I can't with To Build a Home, all the cheesy face skating, emo-eyes, hair bullshit and neck arching. It's a self-parody straight out of Blades of Glory.
Delete5:04 AM, yesterday I started wondering if P/C were built up the way they were in order to create a foil for VM's comeback. I think the sport is completely fake, even VM's wins, since they win DESPITE being the best in the business. If they were winning because they're as good as they are, no other team would be in the same universe of scoring, and their base value would make them nearly unreachable before the competition began. Without having an out of nowhere team suddenly declared God's Gift to Ice Dance, it would have been difficult to create any suspense for VM vis a vis any of the other teams, even the Shibs.
Yes, this sort of thought process is down the rabbit hole, but it's not as if ice dance hasn't taken itself down the rabbit hole long ago.
There is no emotion in this Moonlight Sonata, so the program fails to give them an essential piece of camouflage. I don't know if they're supposed to be expressing emotion in it, but I don't see any of their usual facial histrionics. This sort of program, almost abstract, usually goes in that direction to highlight the purity of the skating and the high level of skating skills. Unfortunately it's just exposing the lack of both. It's a miscalculation IMO. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't add a lot of facial and gesture drama by the time the Olympics arrive, but IMO that wouldn't fit the music and make things worse - and more obvious. I think they trapped themselves with this thing.
DeleteOC @8:28
Delete"I started wondering if P/C were built up the way they were in order to create a foil for VM's comeback. I think the sport is completely fake, even VM's wins, since they win DESPITE being the best in the business. If they were winning because they're as good as they are, no other team would be in the same universe of scoring, and their base value would make them nearly unreachable before the competition began. Without having an out of nowhere team suddenly declared God's Gift to Ice Dance, it would have been difficult to create any suspense for VM vis a vis any of the other teams, even the Shibs."
I have also wondered if PC were built up in the first two years of the quad in order to be torn down by VM in a "rivalry". One of the tactics in the DW playbook was to cast what they were doing on ice (which certainly wasn't ice dancing) as being different from what VM were doing, but being at least just as difficult. If you want to overscore a team to artificially push them to the top, it's easier to do it with a team that's not doing what they're actually supposed to be doing.
Despite repeatedly wiping the ice with DW the last two years of the last two quads, VM were never allowed the win over them. Without DW to play rival, in order for VM to get "redemption", they needed an equal or better foe to topple in this quad. Enter PC.
I would love to see Shibs and HD on that podium with VM in February. The American teams are the best of the rest at this point in time. CB and GP are a joke like PC. CL have never been the strongest to begin with. BS are not the worst team, but are flawed. WP are regressing.
Yep 12:19, and it only recently crossed my mind. I was much more focused on seeing the payoff Canada had gotten for its role in enabling DW in the last quad, but one can see that built into the deal, a payoff is circling back to VM in the creation of PC as their foils. It's a shame what this has done to other, deserving teams however - these stupid trade-offs and games.
DeleteI don't know how ice dance has set it up, but the reaction to Moonlight Sonata is increasingly tepid - the more some people look at it, the more elementary and open it appears. The lifts are barely lifts, and they are sort of hamstrung in this program - the music doesn't leave any room for them to ham it up, or they'll appear ludicrous. Therefore, I hope that despite what everybody believes, the door has been opened for other spots on the podium, kicking P/C off. I can't imagine any free dance the Shibs produce not kicking Moonlight's ass, even if P/C have an "inspired" skate (which the choreography and music doesn't actually allow). I'd also like to see HD on the podium.
The sport has been dumbed down so horrifically it has nearly lost meaning. IMO it's ironic that a scoring system originally touted as rewarding what was actually done on the ice has been either manipulated (in assigning ludicrous values to elements)or ignored completely, so that it is even more corrupt than the previous system. At the end of the day, if objective observers (sportswriters) don't KNOW what was done on the ice, and those in the sport refuse to get down to business and enlighten the public, any scoring system is useless.
I don't blame the french for elevating P/C bc they had Pechalat and the team before them who should have been on olympic stage and didnt get on it to dealwith the russians and the americans feuding over the canadians beating them all. it's just too bad that it benefits P/C and not a deserving french team
DeleteSame here! Now that’s a French team i can get behind with. Too bad theyve retired. I dont blame them though. They know what’s what.
Delete12:19am, I wanted to belatedly mention in answer to this: "If you want to overscore a team to artificially push them to the top, it's easier to do it with a team that's not doing what they're actually supposed to be doing." that Weaver & Poje are a team that is several cuts below top drawer, yet they continue to try to do what they are supposed to be doing. Therefore, where they fall short is always obvious. A lot of their new fd reminded me of PC, except it was always interrupted by their attempt to actually do elements, skate in unison, change hold, etc. If they eliminated anything that wasn't easily done and comfortable for them, and just softly flung their long limbs in the air, they'd come off quite like PC, except without the scores, as they don't train anywhere that benefits the Feds behind this whole shitshow.
DeleteIs anyone else laughing with glee because there is no way P/C win an OGM with this snooze fest??? I almost don't want to say it too much in case they decide to completely change their FD in lieu of too many people saying it's garbage. I'm glad their Fed is giving it the thumbs up, though (French Masters, you're a joke).
ReplyDeleteI also thought it was weird that they specifically asked for their short dance not to be recorded or aired. That bad, eh?
Their short dance got stratospheric scores (all key points? Really? and 3's? Would love to see that) but they were dinged on steps - of COURSE - and twizzles. Both elements are hard to fake. As has been pointed out, how bad must they have been for a home team judging panel to have to take those deductions?
DeleteI'm hoping the Shibs knock it out of the park and them off the podium. Perhaps Hubbell Donohoe as well. It's too bad all the other teams have to actually try in their programs, instead of sleepwalk.
DeleteI was all for the Shibs to win it the coming seasons when v/m took a break after Sochi. But imagine my surprise the one couple whom i least expected to stand actually stood on the podium for 1st plce like 2 years in a row and with THAT level of skating skills. I was, like, seriously??! Come on!
DeleteI thought maybe they still wanted to leave a lot of breathing room between the Shibs and the top of the podium. The Shibs scores were suppressed, IMO, ever since they beat D/W in TES one time during the previous Olympic cycle. An immediate reversal in their fortunes after Sochi 2014 would have Virtue Moir sham-levels of shamelessness. But also, as much as everything about the Shibs skating has improved, they do what VM do, and it's still obvious that VM do it better, as wonderful as the Shibs are. It's easier with P/C to be - oh here's this whole other thing! Look how wavy and soft! Encouraging people to look at the effect and not the skating itself. Many skating teams, when they're as sloppy-footed as P/C, show some tension. One of Gabriella's absolute worst skates where she missed actual steps, she continued as relaxed as if nothing had happened. Their fans think this is art since they're not watching feet anyway.
DeleteThere's also the obvious Gadbois agenda. I keep thinking of Mike Slipchuck's comment that Skate Canada wanted to keep their champions training at home. Well, sure Mike, I'm sure most countries would rather their champions train at home. Not all can produce an insta-champion factory like you apparently did. At least we see what Canada got out of its collusion in the 2014 Olympic cycle (I have still not forgotten its conspicuous lack of advocacy for VM or pushback against DW, nor have I forgotten how they scored VM at Nationals).
Yeah I'm curious too on how they managed to obtain those scores on SD. On a first outing. Is it even possible for one to set the narrative (for a win) by manipulating the scores early on? And if it's a lie, wouldn't it be more hurtful for a said team to perform against others and found that their performances weren't even close to all their competitors?
DeleteWhy not just be realistic and let scores grow as programs get polished? Makes more sense to me ...
http://www.passion-patinage.com/2017/09/30/masters-2017-j2-gabriella-et-guillaume-demarrent-tres-fort/
DeleteSee article for a pic of the so called "amazing lift" by P/C in the SD. Anyone care to wager that she does not sustain that position longer than 1 second? I bet she's floundering about during this very moment the picture was taken. Also really hoping this isn't a curved lift because his edges look flat. I will have to conclude this is yet another two footed (albeit, spread eagle) lift.
I read they got similar scores at the French Masters last season. It's just trying to get a narrative in gear. But even though the competition kept the lid on the sd, everybody has seen the free, and my impression is even the praise from P/C ubers is strained.
DeleteOC @ 10:13
Delete"There's also the obvious Gadbois agenda. I keep thinking of Mike Slipchuck's comment that Skate Canada wanted to keep their champions training at home."
In the seasons before and after Sochi, I spent a lot of time wondering why Skate Canada and the French Fed just let DW run all over their respective top teams. It didn't make sense to me why VM would be sacrificed on an alter for DW. I was also puzzled why VM seemed to never come out for themselves. Why the Canadian skating press just rolled over on it and didn't point out all of the ways VM are better. I do think some have no clue about ice dance. But Tracy Wilson? She knows a lot about ice dance.
It's taken most of this quad, watching how it has all played out, to see what it was really for. VM weren't sacrificed in 2014 for DW. They were sacrificed for this training center. If I'm remembering correctly, in 2014, Didier would not let PC go to the Olympics and withheld funding because they wouldn't leave Lyon. Eventually, they broke and off they went to Montreal with Romain Haguenauer, and then immediately rocketed up the standings. Sure, the fans who really don't know or care about ice dance at the blade level and who are all about the feels instead went for it, but these people have also gushed over plenty of "voidy Euro" teams who haven't had their scores blown up.
The elevation of PC in 14-15 served to establish the Gadbois training center as a "legit" school, on par with the trio in Michigan. They were no longer just a school for fourth rate Euro teams!
While this was going on in the 14-15 season, we had HD suffering through their third season of being held down politically. Yes, they were coming back from injury, but they were still a heckuva lot better than their scores that season. At the very beginning of that season, they signed with David Baden, who had worked with DL in the past and who has represented/worked with the Spanish skaters. HD ended that season by launching a sham of their own and moving off to Gadbois in Canada to train as well. Is shamming a requirement for engaged and later married ice dance couples to somehow be affiliated with ice dance in Canada, whether representing the country or training there? Is it all about promoting the Spanish ice dancers because who knows? In 14-15, they were put behind GP twice on the grand prix circuit and behind PC as well as GP in France. They barely scraped into third at nationals, and were then denied the trip to 4CC. They were buried in the SD at worlds and only made the top 10 because of PI's woes in the FD. The next season, they're off to the GPF, still third at nationals, but then beat CB in the SD at 4CC and WP in the FD there. 6th place at worlds. HD were a good team that was held back politically. Once the moved to Gadbois, the hold on their scores was lifted, and so it looks like they've worked another miracle in the 15-16 season.
VM return in the 16-17 season. They're reigned in somewhat, and they have to give lip service and endure a little bit of obstacle because it can't be too easy. After being hammered in 12-13 and 13-14 by DW, Gadbois would work their magic and do what the American coached couldn't do and get VM another world title and another OGM.
I've seen a lot of hand-wringing from VM fans, who still want to play the victims they were in 2014. I have suspicions that VM were always going to come back. Despite some of their statements at times, Tessa and Scott do know how much better they are than everyone else. VM have a lot of pride. They were not going to come back to be sacrificed on an alter again.
Of course Tessa and Scott know how much better they are than anyone else. We have not been able to take them at their word in years, and yet some fans persist in believing what comes out of their mouths, no matter how absurd.
DeleteBack when they had confidence in the scoring system (in 2009 / 2010) they were unabashed about it, but they've since had to rein themselves in. They're part of this system. I know the sham they've worked seems extremely silly, but back in its heyday it was enabled by the entire ISU, it seemed to me, no matter how aggressive they became, no matter how they overreached. They have always touted Canadian skating, the Moir family livelihood is skating dependant and Skate Canada dependant, and all those colluding to screw VM over were friends. There was nothing VM could do. I always roll my eyes when people blame Marina. What a powerhouse, she brought the entire ISU, every judge, every person in the booth, every skater, into the choir to sing out of the same playbook - Tessa is fat and DW are faster and more technically secure. Sure she did.
I've actually made that point before - that P/C were pushed in order to establish Gadbois as an elite skating center, enter VM who only hope they can hold their own, yet in one season the magic of Marie France and Patch helps them get rid of all of those technical oopsies that caused them to lose in the previous cycle (a narrative that ignored the fact that DW was beating them in PCs, not tech).
I knew Tessa and Scott would never come back without the assurance that they wouldn't be sacrificial lambs, as you put it. As soon as they said they were back, and as soon as they announced they were at Gadbois, the rest of the narrative played out predictably, particularly with all the ludicrous forelock pulling they did prior to the start of the season. "who - us? We WON? We weren't expecting that at all! We just hoped to be in the mix!"
I am glad that, whatever deal was struck, it was only for one year as far as the choreography they'd use. They only had to skate pablum in the free for one season. Now they (rumoredly) aren't even training at Gadbois, and what does it matter, as long as the public relations claims otherwise. Sometimes I suspect Marina meets them at a rink somewhere, along with David Wilson. They're running their own show at this point, and have for years now.
I'm glad Hubbell Donohue have persevered. The past six years must have been a horror show for every skater who wasn't P/C. Even the skaters for whom I have no respect, such as Chock Bates, get screwed over. They were on the rise, and suddenly things shifted and the Shibs began to receive their due. While the Shibs deserve this, I don't think the Shibs' actual skating has anything to do with the reversal of fortunes.
I'm glad Hubbell Donohue avoided the Paul Islam fate. Every Canadian training in Detroit got the message loud and clear - get your ass out of Michigan and away from Russians. Weaver Poje had nowhere to go and went to actual Russia, which I think is probably better than skating in North America at an American rink with an ex-pat Russia coaching team when Canada is right there. Paul Islam were in no man's land.
^I meant the past six years have been a horror show for any ice dancers with no role to play in the deals struck among the Feds.
DeleteTbh I would have thought after pulling that stunt (i.e. No filming & unrestrained high scores after V/m's first outing) last season at French Masters, they'd learned their lesson. Alas wishful thinking on my part. Funny thing is - where IS the outrage??? Whereas for v/m, ppl are always on their case about how overscored they are. It's like, every.single.time. The hypocrisy!
ReplyDeleteI am sure Slipchuk is providing a politically correct cover for the reason VM left Marina. They were ignored and set up to fail against DW during the Olympic year. Corrections were not made in a timely manner. It was obvious at competitions from behind the boards that she was not correcting or helping them. No one wants to rock the boat in ice dance for fear of reprocussions
ReplyDeleteMarina had nothing to do with the last Olympic cycle whatsoever. VM can look at their own Fed, and the late David Dore for that. What they skated and how they skated had nothing to do with the outcome either.
DeleteOC, will you be doing comparison GIFs of some of the elements? The curve lifts especially need to be compared. P/C's curve lift is something out of a bottom-10 juniors team at Nationals.
ReplyDeleteAlso, what is up with Gui's low-spinny "twizzle" at the end of elements? Is that considered a transition?
This program is so horrifically bad, you can't help but laugh out loud at all of it. I can't wait to see the SD.
I don't think it's horrifically bad. It's just different variations of the same of P/C's FD from previous years. Maybe for non fans, they'll say it's pretty decent. If anything some P/C fans want them to do something different too.
DeleteTheir programs are fine for what they are - a bottom-of-the-pack team.
DeleteWhat is horrific and appalling is that this shit is likely to be given a world record score at the expense of not only V/M, but the Shibs and many other deserving teams that can actually skate and dance.
it is a program for a juniors team. there is no lift. i'm pretty sure VM did more complicated lifts when they were 12.
DeleteI'm going to do some lift gifs actually. I'll start cutting up the video later. The curve lift I remember thinking - wait, is that a lift? It's ridiculous, and the rulebook has outsmarted itself allowing that thing to qualify as L4, ditto allowing a two footed stationery / straightline from Cizeron when everybody from Paul / Islam to the Shibs have been doing a variation of that lift on one skate. They can't be serious. I've been reading up on the requirements and apparently flipping Gabriella to and fro once she's down fulfills the exit requirements that lifts it to L4. The gall.
DeleteWait.what? Since when?
DeleteA new Canadian junior team who manage to do a one-foot straight line lift: https://youtu.be/LGLU5phK3Jo?t=1m36s
DeleteThese Gadbois juniors do a lunge variant; obviously two-footed by design but still more effort than Guillaume puts in: https://youtu.be/WXiKkSwsbOI?t=55s
And most other mid-ranking juniors are doing perfectly respectable spread eagles for their straight lines.
can someone tell me how this program -from americans and 2014 junior champs- isnt better than P/C in literally every way? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQKlWW5Xvsw
ReplyDeleteVirtue and Moir were doing a more difficult program in 2005, and skating it better as well.
ReplyDelete