Thursday, April 3, 2014

Let's look at lots of teams

Here are more of canadablue's ice dance comparisons. Thanks canadablue.

Every time one watches Meryl skate, new weirdnesses. This time, I saw how her blade will jerk-slip-slide forward on a flat in the middle of a transition. It's as if her foot gets away from her. Watch her feet.They're ridiculous. Charlie's can be messy, and lack control, but she is on flats out of nowhere, and there are so many other instances of seemingly random what-the-fuckery with her skates constantly going on right in our face.


In the twizzles, look at the ice coverage from Tessa and Scott, and that Mery and Charlie's slow to a virtual standstill by the last rotation of the second set.

Let's also just revisit the glory of the team that stood on the top of the ice dance podium in Sochi because of this kind of "skating".

There's that technical precision that gives them the edge.
Well, not the edge, edge, but you know what I mean.
But at least in their twizzles, they're doing that super hard thing of hopping into them, an ultra challenging L4 feature seeing as how you could really hurt yourself trying to get back onto an edge. Hopping into a rotation doesn't create rotational momentum at all. That's why nobody jumps into a spin. Don't listen to actual physics. Listen to Doris Polaski's made-up physics.
In these comparisons by canadablue, I consider VM the control. Everybody, including DW fans, know VM do it. If you want to know what "it" looks like, you look at them. The only argument made is DW do it better. But the reality is, DW aren't even doing it.

I imagine Doris would argue VM aren't doing it. I imagine she might also argue that crossing your arms over your chest while spinning slows you down, instead of accelerating your rotation, because they act like an anchor on your torso. Doris is full of homemade science similar to that.

Here is Paul Islam versus Gilles Poirier.



Remember at this past Worlds, the judging panel decided G&P had better pcs.

P/I, like V/M, can skate into hold from any number of angles.They don't have to grab ahold and then get themselves in there. G&P do a lot of arms' length skating, a lot of simplistic, DW-esque hold, and very little variation in direction when in any kind of hold (which is also like DW).

In these comparisons, G/P are kicking up a lot of snow. They actually have better run of blade than Davis White (almost anybody at this level has better run of blade than Davis & White; Davis & White's is unusually cramped) but they're a bit sluggish.

This comparison is from Canadians, where P/I handily outscored, and defeated, G&P.



Here's W&P versus VM. I respect W&P a lot, because they've not only worked hard on their skating, but it's paid off and they've improved. I respect that Kaitlyn doesn't back off on herself, and goes after the steps and turns on the ice, and that she and Andrew are constantly working to execute more complex choreography with honesty. I agree with a comment I read recently that they're one of the few teams who realistically evaluates what they do well and what they don't, and I respect that they don't try to make a style out of their limitations. They work towards actually doing it instead. However, their skating skills are are not remotely in VM's ballpark, yet by Worlds they were getting 9s. VM got more than one 8 this past season.

Here's DW versus W&P. You can totally see what sets DW apart. Except you can't.



Here is P/I versus W&P at Canadians:



My impression is that W&P at this point still skated bigger, with more power, but P/I have stronger technique executed seamlessly.

And here is a very much appreciated look at P/I's development from 2011-2014.The way ice dance is going now, they may be the last team we see develop their actual skating, instead of packaging their deficiencies and calling it development.



Finally, this is a link to La Fenice and its sequenced breakdown of DW's 3 free dance lifts. La Fenice's image sequence was posted in response to an article (also scanned on La Fenice's web page) praising DW's dynamic lift entrances and exits.

DW lifts entrances and exits frame by frame


And now, HERE YOU GO, DORIS:

From The Biomechanics of skating

Generating Angular Momentum
An object does not just typically have angular momentum. Recall Newton's first law that an object in motion tends to stay in motion. Well, if a figure skater is just skating straight down the ice and then needs to perform a spin or jump with several rotations in the air, he or she needs to generate angular momentum. Angular momentum is generated by the skater applying a force against the ice. The ice then applies a ground reaction force on the skater. This ground reaction force causes gives the skater angular momentum.*

The point of application and line of action of this force is critical. If the line of action of the force is directed through the skater's axis of rotation, then he or she won't spin. The force must cause a torque, or moment, which means it must be applied some distance from the axis of rotation AND have a line of action which does not go through the axis of rotation.

*And that, Doris, is why the hop helps Davis White. If they could use the power of their edges to generate rotation, that would be really difficult and demonstrate superior skating. Just hopping into it with huge, broad movements of the body makes it makes it easier. I love, though, how recreational figure skaters think because it's difficult for them to get their edge after hopping, it must be tough for Davis White. No, what is tough for Davis White is to get rotational speed off an "edge" while spinning and traveling across the ice in unison, as ice dancers are meant to do when performing twizzles.

There's also this:

The larger the force or the farther the force is from the axis of rotation, the larger the torque. The larger the torque, the greater the angular momentum.

The web page has cute interactive animations illustrating this. Take a look at the expansion of Davis White as they go into their twizzles, how wide open they are when they jump into the twizzles.

41 comments:

  1. o/t but is it true that IMG is insisting that USFS pay them to continue putting on skating shows? That would explain a lot about DW's win.

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  2. For better or worse, I really I hope that Krylova continues what she's done so for with WP and PI and works on growing and developing the skating for all of her teams instead of packaging the flaws.

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    1. Paul/Islam were one of the strongest teams this season and they got dumped on by the judges.

      If you want to see another team that continues to develop their skills and work on their weaknesses, watch Hurtado/Diaz. Then ask yourself how they could finish outside the top 10 while teams like Gilles/Poirier and Coomes/Buckland in it.

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    2. Prior to the Olympics, and because most teams had abandoned the DW-esque twizzles, and most teams that I followed (which did not include Coomes Buckland) appeared to be skating their programs, I thought the ISU was going to hand DW a gold-colored medal, then re-set back to holding ice dance to some sort of standard that at least paid lip service to the rules and criteria. After the Olympics and Worlds, I can throw that idea out the window.

      I now think many of the lesser teams were encouraged to throw away the DW-style twizzles just so fans and reporters couldn't say - how come that team that can barely skate can do DW twizzles with the hop and two passes? And in character of the dance, too, which DW don't do!? So if teams were discouraged from continuing with two sets, I now think the idea was to perpetuate the fallacy that DW's twizzles actually deserved Level 4.

      Ice dance evolved from the 1990s and early 2000s because the sport apparently wanted to move away from being a Las Vegas-themed circus on ice and bring it back to dance. And now they've decided a Vegas-themed circus is what they want from ice dance after all. Just do a lot of crap out there, and every once in a while in this tiny segment use your edges a teensy bit. It's performance "art" that has a little skating thrown in. It's not skating.

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    3. Krylova really is a goddess. Ironically, for me, I was not the biggest fan of her as an ice dancer. I will have to revisit, which I haven't in a long time. To my eyes, her performance style was so overcooked, and the choreography was so not to my own taste, it got in the way of my ability to see how well she skated (granted, I've only seen two or three of their programs). However, when I look at what's trending with other coaches (Platov and Shpilband, for two), and what she does in Detroit, I can only admire and appreciate her. She makes wonderful skaters out of her teams and she knows how to make competitors out of them. So far she's not pandering to ice dance trends. She still insists on the thing itself.

      Even Krylova, though, lets the skating speak for itself, even if the ISU turns a deaf ear. She doesn't speak out against the trends in the sport. If it were just hinky judging, I think maybe she would. If it's the ISU itself (Dore) colluding with Federations towards a result (and that would have to be Skate Canada president Benoit Lavoie who stuck around three years of this past quad and then decided to get out before the Olympics, as you do, and USFSA heavyweight Shawn Rettstatt), I imagine you do keep your mouth shut unless you want to have the outcome South Korea fears the ISU intends to visit upon its skaters.

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  3. Wait--you mean to tell me that teams are NOT supposed to execute lifts by having the male partner throw the female partner around and into him and hold her in place? But the ISU seminars told me that was the ideal way to do it.

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  4. Doris from FSU now claims DW's lackluster choreographies were Marina's fault, that she simply isn't a good enough choreographer, because DWTS clearly proves what an amazing dancer Meryl is.

    I'm starting to believe this girl is just a troll, no sane person could come up with such nonsense.
    I agree that Marina isn't the most creative or inspired artist unless she's lucky to get a team like GG or VM, nobody can deny that she did brilliant in masquerading DW as " dancers ".
    With the exception for Schez; she didn't even try anymore with that program. Maybe because she knew she didn't have to.

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    1. Bahahaha!

      "Meryl is stunning, Charlie a little less IMO but he hasn't been challenged at all. And when we SEE what Meryl can BRING with REAL choreography and intent, I am getting so mad about all the crap she was given to skate to. "

      Meryl is stunning, Charlie a little less IMO but he hasn't been challenged at all.

      http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?91935-Ilinykh-and-Katsalapov-Swan-Song&p=4230110&viewfull=1#post4230110

      I disagree that Marina isn't creative or inspired. Look at the programs she developed for the Shibs, and some of the single skaters programs she has developed for Murakami (didn't care for Gracie Gold's programs this season, but then again, I don't care for Gold).

      D/W's programs this season were ghastly. It was like she was daring the judges with the most empty, vapid programs ever, and they still rewarded that crap with world record marks. It didn't matter what garbage they skated to, those marks were mailed in long ago.

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    2. Where does Doris think the dancing took place in that foxtrot?

      Even the screen caps that DW fans swoon over show crooked leg lines and bizarre angles. Just because a chiffon skirt is draped over them and there's amplitude doesn't make them balletic. Some also believe a screen cap proves core strength and control. No, what proves core strength and control is demonstrating core strength and control. IOW, controlling your leg. Holding it in space. Not whipping it up and down because you're unable to hold it there.

      Amy Purdy, who doesn't even have legs below the knee, clearly has superior control. She's not only able to control her limbs in space per Derek's choreography, but she can finish the lines she's creating and phrase to the music.

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    3. When it comes to DW's programs I think it's reasonable to suspect the USFSA were close collaborators and kept Arctic Edge and DW on a short leash. There was a particular package that they wanted in order to pull this off, and Marina delivered the package and kept reworking the package, but it was the same damn thing. She's good at transitions (or having NO transition, but placed where the music leaves the impression a transition occurred) and has a wonderful eye for what's effective and what's not.

      I'm curious about the evolution of all of this. For example, I wonder if, in 2010-2011, the ISU said to DW and Canton, okay, with VM out, if you want to try and actually skate, this would be the season. And it failed. If it had worked; if DW had developed a bit that season, that development could have been applied to their programs going forward. It didn't happen. So back to Samson & Delilah v.5.

      But when I look at that "tango" program now, I wonder how much actual skating develpment was being attempted. The tango parts were still poses and and filler unrelated to the relationship of the blade and ice.

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    4. Marina is a brilliant choreographer. You can't be creative and inspired with the best teams but not so with lesser talents. She is a master and working with the talent teams have (or do not have).

      Hell, look at what she was able to do with Dube and Wolf. She made Jessica look dynamic in that blues SP.

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    5. She totally did with Jessica. If you look at Jessica, she's like a needle stuck in the groove. Marina broke it up. It's as if she kept poking Jessica throughout the program. There was no spot where Jessica could take a snooze, but at the same time, it was blues music and appealed to Jessica, so she wasn't going to rebel against it either. It kept shaking her up, taking her out of her habits. Whenever you watch Jessica, she focuses mostly when her back is against the wall, and that's mostly at Nationals. She addresses herself to where she got in trouble in the short, or in the last comp. But if she did well in her last comp, she skates not to lose. Hedges, closes up, pops stuff, waits on things.

      Annie Barabe coaches so that it's all second nature, but then bad habits become second nature. Marina choreographed so that everything was within Jessica's skill set in terms of content and execution, but she changed up the timing and sequence, so Jessica had to stay alert every second, and yet the execution was comfortable for her, not an uncomfortable challenge. Marina is just brilliant, period.

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    6. The sp wasn't choreographed by Marina but by Carmelengo. He's a better choreographer than Marina, IMO. More consistent. Marina has put out a few great programs and lots of mediocre ones.

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    7. Dube/Wolfe's blues SP was choreographed by Marina: http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00013628.htm
      http://apps.pjkwong.com/Blog/?e=68405&d=07/16/2011&s=Jessica%20Dube%20and%20Sebastien%20Wolfe%20-%20A%20first%20look

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    8. My mistake, I must have completely blocked out the Dube/Wolfe partnership. My opinion on Marina's choreo still remains though, most of the programs I truly love were made in collaboration with someone else.

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    9. What is it you think is so mediocre about Marina's choreography, specifically?

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    10. I agree - what is mediocre about Marina's choreography?

      There's choreography: layout, transitions, timing, linking moves, element design, element placement, into and out of hold, where the team is mirroring each other, what the blade is doing on the ice and vis a vis your partner at any given moment. There's the intended meaning of each move and how is that going to be expressed at blade level and through the body, and there's the "story" overall, if there is a story.

      When Marina collaborated with Jennifer Swan, does anyone think Jennifer Swan did all of that? She's not a skater. The brilliance of Carmen was how Scott and Tessa were able to use their centers of gravity differently throughout the program - modern is lower. Use their bodies and knees differently while still showing that powerful blade run and still skating every inch of the program and skating it in that particular style. That program was a collaboration. As was Pink Floyd.

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  5. I'd be really interested to see V/M lift exits and entrances frame by frame as a comparison. Because those for D/W were quite... ugly. I'm curious to see what the difference is between them and other teams.

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  6. 7:53 - the difference is that most teams use an assist and the lady gets herself into position with a combination of skating into it and an assist - i.e., using the man's arm as a pivot point or point of balance, or he assists her rotation into it, or her step into it. That's the difference. Look at how pairs ladies MUST get into a lift. Whether the team is strong or not, they simply are not allowed to bend over, clutch their partner's torso while he bends over and clutches hers, and get hauled up there like a sack of laundry. It has to come off the ice. Nor can the male grab the arms, yank, and use momentum from the yank to sling her up there. DW's are ugly because they're dumbed down. The mechanics are primitive.

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    1. Oh, I hear you. I just meant that a visual comparison in the same form would be striking visually, compared to how ugly D/W looked.

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  7. i was watching v/m's OD from 2009 skate canada and i was thinking to myself "remember when teams got -1 GOE for being out of sync in their twizzles just like d/w were in the team event? http://24.media.tumblr.com/12c9d4555a8d9acfa8c55225e73e77a7/tumblr_n0qz75iHgt1s5wtc9o1_250.gif" and people were whining that v/m were overscored if only they knew then what would happen in the upcoming quad

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  8. I just watched Krylova's "Masquerade Waltz" (1997). Of note - there's instances of leaping. Each time, it's off a running edge, and it lands on a soft knee'ed running edge. Imagine that being possible.

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  9. Just want to point out that the ad at the bottom of my screen is for stars on ice with a pic of dw. I am amused every time I see it!

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  10. Polina Edmunds out-twizzles Charlie. DW's fans are eating it up like it's the cutest thing. Look at how he loses speed. http://instagram.com/p/mbIj_MEjZ4/#

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    1. Her twizzles are smooth, faster, calmer.

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  11. Elena Illinykh will skate with Ruslan Zhiganshin now ...

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?92020-Ilinyh-Zhiganshin-Sinitsina-Katsalapov-Zabijako-Larionov-Bazarova-Russian-tall-guy

    I don't see this working out well.

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    1. Okay, wait up. Elena Ilinykh was, supposedly, romantically involved with Morosov. Nikita Katsalapov splits with her to skate with someone else, and he stays with Morosov while she goes somewhere else? Maybe I'm not following. Or maybe this is as Machiavellian as it appears, and Morosov knows he's never going to run out of inappropriate girlfriend supply but he thinks Nikita's team is the better bet? When he professed not to know about the rumored split, I figured, based on his relationship with Elena, that he was out of the loop.

      I feel like I just fsu-'d this comments section, but the dynamics are interesting.

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    2. I might be nuts but I'm still not convinced Elena/Morozov happened. She also was closer to Nikita in the K&C. Morozov didn't act with her the way he did with Miki.

      FSUers were starting rumors that Elena would sleep with Morozov from the second that coaching arrangement was announced (as they are now doing with Sinitsina), and using photos of him clearly helping her position herself in training as the "evidence." So I'm not sure if it ever really happened or if they were just assuming that everything they observed was confirming something they already believed.

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    3. 1:05
      Elena's instagram had many many pictures of her with Morozov and they were icky. I'm sure they did indeed have an affair.

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    4. Morozov's actions reiterate he has little to no respect for women, or at least not female skaters. They are clearly his objects to fuck and then discard. It seemed rather clear Elena was being used by him, but she's only 19, was skating under the tutelage of a coach with a lot of power, and competing in a cutthroat Russian ice dance system. I doubt she had much agency. I think Nathalie Pechalat's comments (if they are to be believed) were pretty dead on. Everyone but Elena could see what was coming.

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  12. Anon at 8:27 am - for next year the big winners out of this is the DSC and the Novi group with Sphilband...Kaitlyn Weaver and Andrew Poje are defintely enjoying this news...and seriously if there is anyone who should write a book about the ice dancing it should Nathalie Pechelat...if anything when PB were in the same group as IK with Zhulin, I am fairly certain that she has a story or two to share...

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    1. WP and B/S are probably doing happy dances right now.

      Without IK VM might want to consider a comeback ( if DW stay away ). The judges couldn't even hold them down because none of the other teams is good enough or has the lobby or money that DW/USFSA had.

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    2. 9:48, true at first glance, but I think if Skate Canada hustles it can make a deal somewhere. Maybe Mike Slipchuk wants to be ISU president some day.

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  13. Hahaha. That new banner is LOL-worthy. Congrats to V/M's daughter on a successful future skating career not at all influenced by her parents because she's never met those people!

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  14. Hi!
    First of all sorry for my english, it's not my mothertongue.

    I need you to write you something I found out, but I can't write it here, I prefer writing you by e-mail.
    How can I do?
    Do I have to give you my adresse?

    I'll wait for an answer.

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    Replies
    1. oycanada@gmail.com

      I can be reached there, 2:25 PM.

      oc

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  15. A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ on the new banner, OC.

    I like to imagine though that if Little Moir becomes an elite skater that she rebels against the family and insists it's brought up as many times as possible who her parents are.

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  16. I like the new banner because your blog has taken a up a new cause as well sham expose....figure skating expose. I love both.

    have you seen the tumbler called lantern moon?? although they never say they are exposing any shams, it certainly seems as though thats the aim.

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  17. So Charlie finally got lord out for not actually dancing but Meryl is hailed the new queen of ball room. The producers are really desperately trying to make sure she wins this thing.

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    1. He got called out for the same stuff in rumba that got her tens in foxtrot. Too much contemporary - not really rumba. Ditto Meryl's foxtrot.

      We can SEE this shit, that's what's ridiculous. She doesn't dance in a back room somewhere and then the gray smoke turns to white and somebody comes onto the balcony and announces she danced to ten standard. We SEE what she's doing. Out of hold tons (so it can't be standard). No rise and fall (so how is it smooth? Even though standard also has rise and fall). No quick quick slow, so how the hell is it foxtrot? Doesn't drive through her foot. Stands still and pretends to make-out for 20 seconds. Gets on the floor and takes a rest.

      Ten!

      Charlie doesn't have enough hip action and a lift is thrown in there so it's not a rumba! It's ludicrous.

      I'm not so sure it means they want or think she's going to win this thing though.

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