Friday, December 6, 2013

Piggybacking

Here they are




This is not dissimilar to B/S versus W/P at Rostelcom, in that the dirt is done in the short dance.

It does tell us that the judges have decided they can score DW ahead of even a perfect VM as long as DW don't make more than one mistake. So it's DW that now have the one mistake cushion.

The scores themselves are determined by how VM skate. If VM skate a world record, it doesn't matter how DW skate, DW's score will automatically be piggybacked onto VM's score with a +. We can see that here. If DW went first, no matter how they skated, they'd get the 77 baseline and, depending on how VM skate, VM would score fractionally below or a few points below.

As Tanith has been working hard all year to tell us that the non-skating free "dance" Scherherazade is the best free dance today, that's always going to be about three points ahead of VM. That's what this looks like, if the GPF is going to Rostelcom itself, if Rostelcom was actually the shoe drop to let us know how the Olympic scoring is going to work.

With B/S versus W/P, B/S's free dance is a hot, screaming mess. The judges surely know that. So they need a short dance cushion.

With VM versus DW, the VM short dance destroys the DW short dance. So tie them. Hell, as long as we're tying them, stick DW ahead. If the short dance were scored fairly, VM would be several points ahead of DW for the free, and if VM skated the free well, it would be difficult for DW to pull in an overall win even if they won the free. So because VM's short dance is so incredible, the important part is to never let them pull ahead in the short.

164 comments:

  1. On another note, Doris is at it again lol. http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?89739-If-you-like-both-D-W-amp-V-M-but-love-other-couples/page10

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I love how she got shut down by that one poster (MissJD) about the penultimate lift in Carmen. Doris can talk all she likes about stools etc, but concerning that lift and the core strength arguments, she's just an armchair 'technician' as opposed to Miss JD's actual experience.

      Miss JD's rebuttal to Doris:

      "I was going to just leave this discussion alone, but since it just keeps going I'll say my two cents. You may talk about stools, toys, and classical mechanics textbooks as much as you'd like, but it means nothing. None of those things is a lift, or more specifically, the lift in question. Have you ever done a lift in this position? I have. (In a contemporary dance duet to "Almost Lover") And I can guarantee you that it takes a great deal of core strength. Not because I read it somewhere in a textbook, but because I did it. Furthermore, I'm sure that given the various quick transitions going on and the speed of Scott's rotation, that Tessa's lift was even more difficult and required more strength. Not only do you have to pull yourself into an upright position and maintain good posture (which is much easier said than done), you have to be very aware of your partner's head and compensate for that. And if you don't want to take my word on it, it's a pretty popular type of lift in competitive dance these days so you can probably find tutorials and such on Youtube."

      Delete
    2. We should thereafter refer to Scott as "The Stool". *rolls eyes*

      Delete
    3. I cannot believe this poster (Doris) refers to Scott as a freaking stool. I don't mean in the personal insult sense, but she actually proceeded with her point on the premise that the physics of what Scott was doing was the equivalent of a four or three legged stool, low to the ground, with a spinning seat. How the HELL?


      It's beyond ironic for her to discuss how easy it is on the core to have your centers of gravity aligned. Not that she perceives it.

      oc

      Delete
    4. Notice how she can't give actual examples from classical physics, other than pointing to a toy whose mechanics are nothing like that lift? She asks people to read those textbooks (which I'll bet she just looked up on amazon) without pointing them to a specific section. And what about lying on your partner like Meryl does? What do Doris's toys and textbooks tell her about that?

      I really like this MissJD poster. very knowledgeable about ice dance.

      Delete
    5. http://flockler.com/thumbs/1056/merylcharlielumofd2_s638x0_q80_noupscale.jpg

      Tell me that her center of gravity isn't leaning towards his. As it is, Davis has to hook her leg around White's head/neck/shoulder to stabilize herself.

      Delete
    6. 8:23, Doris' argument re: core strength got shut down after MissJD said her piece. The former didn't reply anymore about that topic and pointedly moved on by asking about C/L's illegal lift. Obviously her 'book knowledge' got trumped by Miss JD's experience. At the very least Doris knew she had to quit at that point or risk making a fool of herself.

      Delete
    7. Doris is trashing VM fans in the PbP now, saying that they go on attack in every dance thread. Um, she is the one who does that--she makes digs at VM's lift and tries to pass it off as a debate about the rules about sitting within lifts. She made a point of showing how a junior team was doing VM's curve lift in the From Russia with Love thread and praised DW for having new lifts when no one even mentioned DW. Do these idiots never read their own posts?
      So DW ubers are welcome (oh, i'm sorry, Doris tries to pass herself off as a fan of both teams) but VM ubers just have to stay in their own thread? This is the fucked-up world of FSU.

      I think she wants everyone to ignore the strong arguments from VM fans because she can't answer to them. She loses every time because 1) she is a complete idiot and 2) you can't possibly argue that DW are superior or even equal to VM

      Delete
  2. where can you get the full short dance judging results? cannot locate on isu site

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. DW: http://i.imgur.com/NbdSoe3.jpg
      VM: http://i.imgur.com/R4xWqhP.jpg

      Delete
  3. their step sequence in this short is just so gorgeous. hopefully the russians will save the day at the olympics

    ReplyDelete
  4. Blatant (screwed up) judging we're likely to watch in the coming weeks till Olympics between these two teams...though I still can not comprehend how in the world US team is EVER close in talent and skating as the Canadians. (I'm not even either from these countries) Mighty peeved right now...Seriously messed up!!!

    ReplyDelete
  5. Even Meryl thought she and Charlie were in second. Read her lips at the end of the video.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The scoring is clearly rigged. Because Virtue and Moir are better in the short - clearly better - that's where the cooking is going to show. It showed last season at worlds and it showed here. DW's score wasn't based on what they skated, it was simply addition to VM's score. Then the free dance the judges are home free. A fairly scored short dance would give VM a cushion so the answer is to put DW ahead. They've got reputation scoring now. They've been overscored for so long DW no longer need to even pretend. That was kind of obvious when they unveiled their empty programs this year, free of the camoflage they've previously used. They can just pose and glide, crawl up into lifts, and win.

      oc

      P.S. and Charlie's thinking - wow, we're just that good!

      Delete
    2. When VM are clearly on and skate cleanly, I'm sure it cuts through DW's self-delusion as to who the superior team is. Unfortunately, the judges have bailed out on reinforcing the truth.

      Delete
  6. oh man and there aren't any articles either. if d/w were the one cheated on, there'd be fire alarms everywhere.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Hmmm and to think that Igor Shpilband must have politicked hard for DW back in 2011-2012 to have the Yankee Polka and the Finnstep as the SDs. This has to be discouraging for other teams as well. At least we got this gem of a SD this year from VM...

    ReplyDelete
  8. oy canada, is there any way to get skate canada involved?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not OC here, but I think SC is not going to get overly involved (if at all). They're too busy politicking for Patrick. Though it must be galling for the likes of Tracy Wilson to avoid talking about it when everyone in ice dance clearly knows who the top team is.

      Delete
    2. In general - I think the icedance community in Canada must be discouraged after today's result. Not everyone was a fan of Carmen last year - but this SD is just wow and for it not to receive greater PCS than DW is well criminal...

      Delete
    3. 8:39, I totally agree with you. VM's SD is as ice dance as ice dance could get. I didn't see Petri/Kokko singling out DW...

      Delete
    4. Skate Canada did the exact same thing on a smaller scale in January when they gave Gilles/Poirier a + score exclusively on PCS, on a skate with bobbles, to overwrite Paul/Islam's huge numbers for a clean and strong performance in the SD. Given that the second half of that competition then had them knocking V/M back to bolster G/P some more, I doubt they give a crap.

      Delete
    5. Anon - at 9:00 am - you bring up a good point. At least we can say that VM have earned their marks over their career. There has been no gimmes...on the other hand - even though I enjoy Patrick Chan - he has been held up at a handful of competitions this quad with PCS...

      Delete
    6. 9:00 a.m. has a good point - Skate Canada threw VM under the bus last year and boosted G&P. They upsold G&P on the pcs - the pcs!!!!! to give them an edge over P/I's short. Go back and look at the two short programs.

      PCs is backward. They're using that score to COMPENSATE for deficient skating skills, instead of rewarding superior skating skills.

      Delete
  9. I just watched eurosport coverage and they were delighted. I am afraid to watch the dw clip though...

    btw, I wrote to eurosport after the teb coverage and they actually replied to me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Really? If I may ask, what did you write to them, and what did they reply?

      Delete
    2. the reply was
      Thanks for taking the time to contact us and apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

      I have forwarded your email to our commentary department for their consideration.

      Kind Regards

      Joe

      Delete
    3. I am writing to convey my disappointment with the commentary during TEB, particularly that of Nicky Slater in the ice dance. Beyond the racial profiling of fans and what could be misinterpreted as derogatory slurs, he doesn't bother discussing the key points of the skating. He claims to be concerned with the finer points: hand movements, run of the blade, variety, musicality… but he doesn't apply the discussion to the actual skating on the ice and seems to have trouble distinguishing who posses the qualities being discussed. At one point he went to great lengths to point out that it's not right if a man doesn't wear a jacket in the ice dance. He went on and on about a topic that should mean very little in the big picture of evaluating whether or not an ice dance team is meeting the key points being evaluated by the judges.

      If eurosport covers figure skating as a sport I sincerely hope the commentators will treat it as such, complete with explanations and intelligent discussion.

      Delete
    4. Nice. Even though if it were me, I wish I'd received a less 'generic' sort of reply. Still, great that you heard from them.

      Delete
    5. During DW's clip from B. Esp.. the B. Esp guys said they would have had VM first instead of DW. They state that a couple of times.

      Delete
    6. where do you find the b.esp clip? cant find on youtube! thanks

      Delete
    7. search virtue moir sd in the last 24 hrs

      Delete
    8. it's not coming up!

      Delete
    9. Really? I wonder why. I tried it, filtered the results, got the clip. Though I did enter "Virtue Moir" instead of "Virtue Moir SD".

      Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUKvQBX8UI

      Delete
    10. @Anon 8:57, I got the exact same reply to my email; here it was:


      Dear Eurosport,

      I am writing to convey my delight and disappointment of Eurosport's coverage of the Trophee Eric Bompard figure skating competition this past weekend (November 15 - 17).

      I was delighted with the addition of Joanne Conway in the commentary booth. She was knowledgeable, and her commentary was easy to follow and insightful in explaining what was difficult and/or easy and what made it difficult and/or easy. She was wonderful addition to the team, I hope her services will be called upon again in the near future.

      I continue to be disappointed in the commentary of Nicky Slater. Yet another competition where he was once again more interested in fashion commentary, and again used vague, non-specific terminology to explain what was happening on the ice.

      His introduction of Canada's Patrick Chan as "Patrick Chan of China" is unforgivable.

      Delete
    11. ROFL DID THAY ACTUALLY SAY 'PATRICK CHANG OF CHINA?" THAT IS HILARIOUS ALMOST AS HILARIOUS AS THE TODAY SHOW SHOWING CLIPS OF V/M INSTEAD OF D/W. GOOD JOB EUROSPORT!

      Delete
    12. Anon 6:49: Yup, he says it as Patrick gets into position: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmazFXN8DWI

      Delete
  10. one of the judges really had it out for TS too

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Was he/she American?

      Delete
    2. You think only the American judges are pulling for D/W? USFSA is smarter than that.

      Delete
  11. how do you get 3 10's for interpretation and timing when you mess up an element that is used to compare timing?

    ReplyDelete
  12. im going to be absolutely blunt and send a message to skate canada and i think we should all do too.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. i agree with that approach, that sd was perfection. it just could not have been better. the speed was incredible, totally in sync, how could DW have gotten better choreography scores?

      Delete
    2. What about sending a message to Rosie DiManno? I'm serious. I wonder how many messages she actually gets from skating fans. Maybe if a bunch of us sent her something about what we perceive as a scandal, she'd actually write about it. Maybe other journalists too. It's the only media we've got.

      Delete
    3. Rosie? Rosie who declared DW more technically proficient and declared that nobody, not even VM, can match their blinding speed? She said this about team that has elementary lift mechanics and skates their in betweens on two feet and toe picks. She said this about a team with a truncated run of blade who are slow than VM and the Shibutanis.

      Delete
    4. Rosie just echoes whatever's floating around. I think if she had a bunch of people emailing her with accusations of scandal, she'd find the intrigue delicious and start blathering about it.

      Delete
  13. VM were sublime in that SD. IMO, it's just one of their best performances ever, but it's one of the best ice dancing performances ever by any team.

    What's happening with the judging is completely out of VM's hands. Today proved that. A perfect VM wasn't scored higher than a visibly flawed DW. I wish VM could just let go and put all of the judging nonsense out of their heads. This situation is one of those where all that you can do is say "fuck it" and dance.

    ReplyDelete
  14. How convenient for Icenetwork not to mention the twizzle mistake from D/W:

    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2013/12/06/64448818/davis-white-tip-by-virtue-moir-in-barn-burner-short

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Of course they won't. Mouthpiece for the US skating fed.

      Delete
    2. And yet they would be one of the first to point out (and have done so) when V/M make a slight mistake. Yeah, the "D/W has no PR and they are just poor seconds to the pwetty princesses" line is getting really old.

      Delete
    3. we should spam that article lol make everyone know that v/m were robbed,

      Delete
  15. if d/w were scored properly in the sd how much points would they have?

    ReplyDelete
  16. So just finished watching B/S's SD; curious that the Eurosport boys commented that towards the very end of the dance, they did a shoot-the-duck, and good ole Nicky Slater pointed out that it was "junior-ish" move; will he say the same thing when D/W use a shoot-the-duck in the entry of their backpack lift in the FD?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SOgYvbiPFk

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. no the usfsa paid him to shut up :)

      Delete
  17. Not surprisingly, certain DW fans are trying to intimidate people from complaining about the scores and discussing a possible fix. People actually expect VM fans to rejoice that VM are so close to DW in the scores--are you fucking kidding me? Um, VM should have run away with the PCS in that SD segment--it should NOT be close. DW have a garbage SD. Which other team did you see hopping through their entire SD? Which other team did you see ignoring the actual dances?

    It is okay to question other skaters' marks, but not DW--oh no, they have worked so hard that they deserve every score and title they receive.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So, DW won overall by 1.35 points. The scoring of the SD and the subsequent skate order have both played a part in this gap.

      First of all, DW should never have been ahead (even with 0.07), never mind that close in SD score (0.07, are you kidding me?!). OC and others here are right that judges knew VM have the edge in this season's SD, in concept, execution, performance.

      Secondly, that FD skate order let the judges 'leave room' in the scores for DW, as of this system were still 6.0. Oh, who am I fooling? They would have found some way to fool around with the scores even if VM skated last.

      A small part of me hopes that at least some questions will be raised over DW getting gold over VM's clean skates, at least plant doubt in the 'inevitability' of DW's gold medal campaign. But the pessimist in me says hell no, the US fed wants their first dance gold, Canada can have the men's (which is not looking as much as a lock, Chan's history of falling is now biting him in the butt), Russia can have pairs blah blah blah.

      I think it is only when the Sochi dust has settled will people realize in hindsight how much more superior an ice dance team VM were. DW will be remembered for being exciting acrobats and determined competitors, but not for *ice DANCE*.

      Delete
  18. And more stupidity in the scoring of the FD. In what universe do DW have better skating skills than PB, let alone VM? All of their PCS marks are ridiculous.

    Great job to VM--they were awesome!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's blatant corruption. VM skate closer together. They skate on one foot, not two-feet and gliding. Their lifts are better - they don't climb and clutch. But they're screwed in the base value, for one thing. The real world difficulty of what they do is so much harder than Davis & White, but the sport doesn't recognize that VM's straight line lift is so much more difficult than Meryl curling up like a medicine ball. It's sickening. It's sickening. It wouldn't be so bad if it VM didn't absolutely define ice dance in everything they do, skate like that, and still lose to a team that gets around skating and dancing.

      oc

      Delete
    2. It IS blatant corruption--how can anyone justify DW's scores or win? This isn't even close. VM trump DW in every.single.aspect of the skating and dancing. I am so disgusted.

      And PB should have beaten DW in the FD as well.

      Delete
    3. The corruption can't get any more blatant at this point. VM gave nothing at all away to the judges this weekend. It should have been a no brainer, especially with DW having twizzle errors in both the SD and FD.

      I've seen the comments out there that the gap is only 1.35 points now. Do these people not understand that VM will not be allowed to make that up? This weekend proved that no matter how perfect they skate, DW will always be scored higher.

      In an SC press release, Scott talks about adding speed and emotion. Does he really think that's enough to overcome the judges vendetta against VM?

      This is just the biggest bunch of bullshit.

      Delete
    4. On a different side of things, pairs proved what I'd expected all along: As good as VT have been, as dominate as they've been, they still have to earn their wins. Botched jumps put them behind a clean SS.

      Ice dance: The corrupt discipline!

      Delete
    5. "Does he really think that's enough to overcome the judges vendetta against VM?"

      Of course not. But if he says what he really thinks, everyone from the judges to the media to the DW ubers will be all over him like white on rice.

      Delete
    6. DW are a club they use to beat VM with. DW don't have VM's speed (run of blade). EMOTION? Mugging and sweeping their arms. But VM need to do more than DW, and better than DW, just to get silver. It's obscene. These are standards DW don't have to meet. Just VM.

      Delete
    7. Agreed, 9:03. Scott Moir is not stupid about skating. He knows exactly what's going on, and that's why he's just focusing on things that are within his control.

      Even if V/M don't win in Sochi, it's blatantly obvious that everyone in the skating world who really loves and knows the sport knows (i.e., past champions, etc) who's the best. D/W may be a big deal in the US after they win (or not), and may be bleated about in US media, but for a guy who is a serious about skating as Scott is, I bet media accolades/money aren't worth a damn. He wants to be respected for his ability in the sport, and that's happening. The judging bullshit is the same bullshit that's always been in ice dance. It's a risk you take when you decide to be an ice dancer.

      Delete
  19. So, anyone think Marina will be inquiring with the judges to see what went wrong?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And question her beloved DW's win? I doubt it.

      Delete
    2. And question her beloved DW's win? I doubt it.

      Delete
    3. Of course not. She was thrilled for DW today. She wasn't even 1/4 that happy when VM won worlds in 2012. She was all "DW should have won."

      Delete
    4. And all of this Marina bashing is almost like the "Scott and Tessa need to recognize they're in love!' borderline delusional nonsense (meaning, people rationalize away what's in front of their face and decide Scott and Tessa don't recognize their feelings, but fans do, Scott and Tessa for no reason whatsoever except reasons fans invent are unable to act on their love). This Marina shit presupposes that Scott and Tessa, who are as ferocious as it gets when it comes to their skating, who are savvy, intelligent - brilliant as skaters, are allowing themselves to be coached by someone who doesn't give a shit and is actively rooting for their training mates. That's absurd. Scott and Tessa know more about skating and more about Marina then we do. This isn't a "defer to the experts" thing, this is obvious. I think Marina knows what's going on. But for some reason, Marina is responsible for the ISU. Marina is responsible for the reality show. Marina is responsible for everything some people don't like.

      Before the split, these same people were absolutely positive Meryl and Charlie were Igor's team and Virtue and Moir were Marina's team.

      Delete
    5. I'm beginning to be of the opinion that Platov had the right of it in his recent interview. You can't coach the top 2 teams -- oh, wait, I mean the top team and their perceived rival -- at the same time. I can't help but imagine that the Canton teams are co-existing there by sheer will and determined professionalism, all cool civility to each other.

      I think privately, Marina does prefer VM, who are ice dancers' ice dancers and are to their discipline were what Gordeeva/Grinkov were to pairs. But VM, DW and Shibs all decided to stay with her; she has a responsibility to do her best for all her students.

      I used to think that US Fed would have gone with the naturalized US citizen and their coach of the year once upon a time, but I suppose they thought that Marina would do a better job. That, and at the time, she was the one who ended up staying in Canton. But really, at first glance, I was of the impression that DW got along better with Igor. (I'm almost tempted to subscribe to the conspiracy theory that US fed urged DW to stay with M because that would have the added benefit of 'muzzling' her ability to stand up for VM. Almost.)

      I do understand the frustration of other VM fans, because if Marina were not coaching DW, then she would have the chance to be more free in standing up for VM. Point out starkly the things that we've been repeating here over and over about VM's superiority and why. But she has both teams under her wing, so on the surface she's not going to rock the boat. What I do believe she will do is that she will go over the programs again with VM, Margaglio etc. to see if anything more could possibly be done. Judges scoring and tech calls are out of her hands.

      Delete
    6. "I do understand the frustration of other VM fans, because if Marina were not coaching DW, then she would have the chance to be more free in standing up for VM. Point out starkly the things that we've been repeating here over and over about VM's superiority and why. But she has both teams under her wing, so on the surface she's not going to rock the boat."

      Fans need to stop assuming they know what Marina is or is not doing.

      Delete
    7. In my opinion, Davis White stayed with Marina for one reason - choreography. Without Marina we can see the calibre of choreography Igor delivers. Marina's musicality is invaluable to DW - she knows precisely how to match choreo with music to disguise DW's lack of musicality, she knows precisely how to be "effective" with a team that doesn't actually skate.

      Marina is no fool. She knows VM are better. In an ideal world, she gives DW what they need - a program that disguises their deficiencies, uses all of their acquired workarounds, and is "effective" and gives VM programs that showcase their brilliant skating and dancing. Both teams give their all and the judges do what's proper in ice dance - reward the best skaters/dancers. That's not happening.

      It would be much much much harder to keep DW at the top without Marina's choreography. DW would be so much more exposed.

      Delete
    8. I also noticed that Charlie and Meryl kept saying the best part is their programs can grow EVEN more. What this means is their scores can grow even more, and what they're saying is it doesn't matter that VM are "closing the gap" because DW's scores will simply expand.

      Delete
  20. Kudos to V/M. They were brilliant this weekend. Too bad about the judges and the scoring.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Well - for us skating fans - that was a great Xmas present from VM - 2 beautiful skates couldn't have asked for more. And to see them happy after the FD - yup - that's what it is all about.

    ReplyDelete
  22. This from numbers123 in the If you like both "D/W & V/M but love other couples.........." thread in response to people who responded to Doris about the Carmen lift requiring little to no core strength: "The majority of posters here are V/M fans. there has been extensive bashing of the V/M-D/W scores. When I read the OP post, I wondered with V/M fan came out of the woodwork. You have the V/M thread to bash D/W in, yet you all seem to take over any and all dance threads."

    Where was the bashing? And why is any criticism of DW read as bashing yet other skaters are fair game? We should be able to openly criticize ALL skaters. Why does every dance thread have to turn into a 'defend poor, picked-on DW' and 'punish the evil VM fans' thread. Why can't we have a real discussion?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think their desperation is really showing. Now any criticism of the marks is labelled bashing. What about Doris, who compared Tessa's position in that Carmen rotational to sitting on a stool? That is the closest thing to bashing I have seen in that thread (for the record, I think it is fine to say something like that--in this case, though, she is completely wrong. The examples she is trying to use from classical physics are not applicable to this--yet again, she is reaching).

      Delete
    2. numbers123 is a D/W uber. Of course she is going to say that. Why not just ask your question on there -- "why can't we have a real discussion"? Then ignore. The fact is, there are lots of people who don't want to have a real discussion.

      Delete
    3. Because a rational argument based on actual skating exposes DW as inferior and overscored. That's why they want to shut down discussion. There's no skating based discussion possible. Even the judge that participated revealed, intentionally or not, that what she's taught in seminars doesn't refer to the rulebook. The rulebook is like an icon - it's not what they use to judge.

      Delete
    4. 8:15 am. Don't worry. VM fans shut her down and she never replied LMAO. I think it's better to be more aggressive now in arguments because we have all the proof that VM are the best while DW fans are really getting desperate with their comparisons and criticisms.

      Delete
    5. numbers123 is as clueless as Doris Pulaski.
      I can't believe Doris actually recommended those fans read those textbooks. She probably hasn't read a page of them--just went to wikipedia to get their version and twist it to fit whichever silly theory she was blabbing on about that day.

      Delete
    6. Doris is a retired engineer. So she most likely has read those books and understands physics better than you.

      Delete
    7. 12:10, I don't agree with 11:59 about the wiki thing, and I'm sure Doris would wipe the floor with me when it comes to engineering. However, I think in some things, even if she has the greater theoretical knowledge, I don't agree with her about other stuff. I think in the case of dance (and in the pertinent FSU thread, the exchange she had with MissJD about lifts), I would side with the one with the practical knowledge, the actual experience.

      Delete
    8. Anon at 12:10 pm - had no idea that Doris is a retired engineer - which may explain some of her posts and her knowledge of some physics which is fair. But as an exercise physiologist - I can tell you that the human body and its mechanics (including different lever systems) are much more complicated. Deep down - I think Doris knows VM are the better team but she will never admit it. At first she comes off as bipartisan but then you start seeing that really she is a DW uber. If DW were able to pull off VMs short dance this year - she would be the first to declare this the dance of the century. Don't get me wrong - she probably is a very nice person - but when it comes to skating - there is not really a discussion...
      On FSU - I almost keeled over today when miajoy stated in one of the threads that she was happy for PB because they bring a maturity to skating and are innovative...wow talk about hypocritical coming from a VM hater....

      Delete
    9. >>Doris is a retired engineer. So she most likely has read those books and understands physics better than you.<<

      Yes, that's why she compared a human being over 6 ft tall in his skate blades, rotating on blades, to a three foot stool on stable ground with a spinning seat. It's that engineering background kicking in.

      Here's a newsflash - credentials don't turn stupid into smart. "I have credentials" doesn't validate a stupid analogy. It's still stupid.

      What Doris doesn't seem to know very well - or actually see very well, is figure skating.

      Some time back she mentioned DW's speed as proof of their skating superiority - this was way sometime back, before DW were being called out on fake speed. She recited the control and power needed and the blade quality needed to achieve speed, and so therefore, fast skaters were superior skaters. This means she was unable to see that DW weren't using their blades and their edges to achieve speed, and the toe picking, running, pulling and leaping got by her.

      Delete
  23. here is no couple more able and available than Virtue and Moir to change styles and challenge new routes. They have danced on the Pink Floyd music, on traditional popular music - Russian and Spanish, Dark eyes and Pepe Romero Flamenco's - on movie sountracks (Umbrella), on music from musical (Funny face), on latin music, on Tango (the best), on modern dance (Carmen), on Charleston music, they have left only Minuetto end Tarantella behind.It seems to me that these choices are much more varied than the plethora of biblical, epic, lireraly heroines, Davis and White have offered for the last 5 years, a bit all the same that end their ventures turning in splits on the Charlie's shoulder. Whether you call it Dalida, Esmeralda or Scheherazade

    Found this Youtube comment on V/M's FD.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The commenter forgot Christine from PotO (Charlie as Phantom was laughably painful to watch). Also, that character from DF that I don't remember because gee, DW really don't know how to tell a story.

      Concerning DW's Tango FD, don't you just love how the American media trumpeted their improved connection all season? And then all it took was VM's aborted FD at 4CC's and a not-at-their-usual-peak skate at Worlds to blow that premise out of the water and show that admiring audience in Moscow what real physical and emotional connection in dance looks like. DW simmered and simmered but never got that tango to boil; they couldn't do it, and everyone saw it. Whereas VM's Latin caught fire instantly. Or, to carry on with the boil metaphor -- got hot quickly and spilled over.

      Delete
  24. amazing. but why wont they go back to original last two lifts? is it a time deduction issue? the last lift seems very anitclimactic only because three other teams including dw do the same lift. and vm's version of that lift in funny face was more intricate. i think they need to make the lifts more complicated wow -back to finlandia to get that extra point. they need to add sthg. im hoping they can win 4ccs

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. They're not going to 4CC. The next time they skate against DW, it'll be in Sochi.

      Look, Sochi is over and done with for VM. THEY.WILL.NOT.WIN. THEY.CANNOT.WIN. Their last win over DW was in Nice, and that is far too long ago to count for anything. It's not a matter of how well trained they are, what they do to the program, or how well they skate there, or if a different panel sees things differently. VM are done for. They are shit out of luck.

      The judges have made it clear that their alliance lies firmly with DW. That's not changing.

      Delete
    2. I agree that the last lift looks anticlimactic, but they've been dinged for it this season. At the GPF, I was actually a little disappointed with the 2nd rotational lift, because I loved the Skate Canada one. I don't know if this lift was the one Tessa once intimated was really hard to do. I wonder if they'll change any of the lifts again?

      The judges' scoring last season ultimately spelled the message to VM that their originality/creativity is not valued. So VM are forced to compromise, little do we (and they) like it.

      Delete
  25. why arent they going to 4cc? that's ridiculous. i believe in the russians. no way will they give it to the americans.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It takes place too close to the start of the Olympics and is too far away from North America.

      It's not up to the Russians. It's up to a judging panel that has decided that DW are superior to VM. That can be undone, no matter how well VM skate.

      Delete
    2. I would much rather see V&M do the 4CC and earn some nice new World Records that D&W won't automatically get as well, and then skip the team event instead (where there is no Canadian judge but there is an American judge and Russia will be trying to dock points from Canada where they can so they win can team gold). They can take Epstein or Margaglio and then come to Sochi a little bit later.

      I'm sure it won't be possible, of course. Sigh.

      Delete
    3. Do 4CC and skip the team event in Sochi? No way.

      V/M need to skate the team event for two reasons:

      1. It'll be a great warm-up for them heading into the ice dance competition by allowing them to get their programs out early on Olympic ice.

      2. They have a great shot at a medal in that event.

      Why would V/M care more about setting world records at a meaningless competition when they'll have a chance to win two Olympic medals (of any color) in Sochi?

      Delete
    4. 4CC is an opportunity to enter the Olympics on a high note with another ISU championship, that's why. They will for sure lose to D&W in the team event and everyone will cry foul if they beat them a few days later. That way they can come into Sochi as winners instead of losers. If I were them I would give up the chance at the team medal and worry about the individual. It's not like Skate Canada is doing much for them and if they get undermarked at Nationals again, forget it.

      Delete
    5. I think Team Canada has a great chance of doing better than the Americans (Chan, VM, D/R), but I do see what you mean that VM would not like to lose to DW in the ice dance skate-off portion of the event.

      But I don't think VM have a choice about 4CC. How would it look like to Canada if their reigning Olympic champions skip the inaugural team event? I honestly don't think 4CC actually crossed VM's mind.

      Delete
    6. I agree, 11:10, they have no intention of doing 4CC, I'm just daydreaming a bit. I do agree that Canada will beat the US overall, but V&M won't beat D&W in their part of it.

      I know USFS has a form giving skaters the opportunity to choose whether they wish to participate in the team, and I read that priority for skippage would be given to those with the best chance of individual medals. I don't know SC's position, but I am sure V&M are too patriotic to skip the chance to give Canada a medal. It would be nice if Marina used her leverage with both federations to arrange it that one of her teams does the SD and the other the FD to take some pressure off them (and this might even benefit the Shibutanis if they get picked for a segment), but I don't think that will happen either.

      Delete
    7. I actually thought that VM were doing one segment and W/P the other. Have the team members been already confirmed?

      Delete
    8. Nothing has been confirmed. VM said in the Russian fan interview at TEB they would be doing both segments, but WP have also expressed interest so who knows?

      Delete
    9. Virtue and Moir cannot do the 4CCs this year. It's not an option.

      Delete
    10. Right. Olympic team members cannot do 4CC. They aren't allowed. Not that they would do it anyway.

      Delete
    11. "If I were them I would give up the chance at the team medal and worry about the individual."

      Are you serious? Part of skating in the Team Event will be preparation for the individual event. They can handle skating both and they will.

      Stop making this about you and your desire for V/M to make some kind of "statement" to the ISU, or whatever. This is about who they are as competitive athletes. They want to win Olympic medals. If they're given the option to compete for two instead of one, they're going to compete for two. That's a no-brainer.

      Delete
    12. I think the team medal is a fantastic opportunity to see exactly what the judges intend. We already saw it, but it's a chance to get the nerves out, and do one more competition prior to the big event.

      Delete
    13. I get what you're saying, but as we know what the judges intend, is it necessary to have to sit through another go-round of D/W getting something that V/M actually earned? You know they'll make sure D/W have one more victory over V/M before the individual event to make sure V/M are good and buried.

      Delete
    14. Sorry, but we do NOT know what the judges intend for Sochi. A lot of people assume they know, but that's it - it's assumption right now. Base it on whatever you like, but it's still assumption.

      No one will know what exactly is going to happen in Sochi until it happens.

      There is NO WAY V/M are going to go into the Olympic Games thinking "well hell, we aren't going to win gold anyway, why even compete in the team event?" Good grief. That's not how competitive athletes think. That's how armchair quarterback fans think when they're upset at results, fair or unfair.

      Delete
    15. Look at what just happened this weekend. A clean VM skating the way they did were beat by DW who had errors in both the SD and FD! One judge gave VM PCS marks down in the 8's! Look at all of the talk out there, what the judges are apparently being taught. We know what the judges are intending because they've been telegraphing it for over a year now and turned the broadcast up about 100 notches this weekend.

      Delete
    16. @4:45, are you the same commenter who argued V/M should skate at 4CC rather than the Sochi Team Event because at least at 4CC they could set world records and come in to the individual event as "winners?"

      Delete
    17. @4:53, I'm 4:45 and not the person who argued that VM should skate at 4CC.

      I think they should do either the SD or the FD in the team event, but not both.

      Delete
    18. @ 4:58, Okay thanks. I didn't want to confuse who I was replying to because I wasn't sure if you were the same commenter.

      Here's the thing with your assessment: none of us KNOWS why D/W are having their scores inflated. We don't. There appears to be an ISU agenda in place, but we don't know what it is. The intent may be to give D/W a gold medal in Sochi, or it may not, especially if there are other variables in play that include the Team Event.

      People want to throw out all kinds of assumptions as fact: "SC has made a deal to trade-off V/M for a Chan gold medal" is the one that is spouted off the most, or "ice dance is the USA's only chance for a gold medal and that's why they'll win it." But Chan is not untouchable and there's no telling what is actually happening behind the scenes with the federations.

      The scoring is bullshit. That's clear. But the intent of the scoring as it pertains to Sochi? We can't know until the Olympics plays out.

      Delete
  26. From skate canada fb page
    Cathy Hilborn: "So wake up this morning to find an all too familiar injustice. Scott and Tessa were cheated by the judges in Japan. Shameful!
    Come on Skate Canada...stand up for your athletes!!!! Scott and Tessa are indeed being unfairly judged! "

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. LMFAO. That is so meta.

      Delete
    2. Anon here at 10:36 am - if Scott Moir can be diplomatic and positive after the GPF - then Mrs. Hilborn should shut it. Or perhaps the Moirs were so frustrated with the result that they told Mrs. Hilborn to make that comment. Either way - so not classy...

      Delete
    3. Oh dear. Although -- it's the mother of Scott's 'GF', so "don't mind her, she's just being a supportive sourgrape, er, prospective mother-in-law". I would rather that the objection come from someone seriously involved in Canadian skating (i.e. coaches/skaters/commentators who are not Moirville), but we know how people jumped on Jeff Buttle when he said what he thought about how good VM are.

      Sorry, Mrs. Hilborn (and Ilderton). Skate Canada can't hear you. They're too busy putting all their eggs in Patrick Chan's basket.

      Delete
    4. Who is Tessa? I didn't know the Hilborns recognized that Scott had a partner!

      I actually appreciate she busted out with that remark - especially the push at Skate Canada.

      It's meta, yes, but knowing the actual situation, it's a peek behind the curtain. Scott and Tessa are the celebrities. They're excitement to this community. The Cassandra situation is piggybacking on Scott and Tessa's fame. It's not strictly a Scott deal (which is how the family presents itself).

      Also, it's gotta be messing with the reality show narrative.

      Delete
    5. "but we know how people jumped on Jeff Buttle when he said what he thought about how good VM are."

      I missed that--what did he say?

      Delete
    6. Don't worry OC...she has deleted her post...

      Delete
    7. @11:48AM, I think this is being conflated with Jeff Buttle's twitter post about the CoR judging: https://twitter.com/J_Butt/status/404321674839224320

      There apparently was a CBC interview (after TEB, but before GPF, IIRC) where he was asked if V/M could catch up to D/W and he said 'absolutely'. He was reportedly very complimentary of V/M, but perhaps some fans were disappointed that he didn't say anything specific/technical about V/M vs. D/W skating.

      Delete
    8. Anon at 2:16 - who deleted her post - ? Mrs Hilborn...

      Delete
    9. I also think it's really funny that now, since her daughter is helping Scott and Tessa sham, and fake dating Scott Moir, suddenly Mrs. Hilborn is a skating insider and all up in skating business.

      Delete
    10. Mrs. Hilborn feels secure enough in her role as fake mother-in-law to speak out about the judging? Makes me think the coming reality show makes her think she's got standing.
      https://www.facebook.com/cathy.hilborn

      https://www.facebook.com/cathy.hilborn

      Delete
    11. That's exactly how it comes off. "My daughter is Scott Moir's fake girlfriend! She's part of Scott and Tessa's team! This judging is a travesty!"

      I agree with her sentiments, but you're right, she thinks being the fake mom-in-law gives her standing. It's a status thing.

      Delete
    12. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree..again..status and entitlement...

      Delete
    13. With regards to the GPF this week - I wonder if Scott's parents were there...if not wouldn't it be ironic that VMs best performances were when Moirville wasn't around...just a thought..

      Delete
    14. Well, it shows that this isn't a sideline, this is an investment. When someone is summoned to help Scott and Tessa sham, it becomes the focal point of their actual lives.

      Delete
    15. FUCK WHY DID SHE DELETE HER COMMET?

      Delete
    16. 9:06, I wondered if the score protesting from the Hilborn clan was unauthorized and overstepping.

      Delete
    17. Good question anon at 9:09 pm. Jennifer Swan was classy in a tweet - congratulating VM for their silver at the GPF. I don't get why Cathy Hilborn was in a rush to mouth off on Skate Canada's facebook page. And to boot insult Skate Canada. If this comment was unauthorized by the Moirs - wow - it's all levels of stupid...

      Delete
    18. 9:09 -- What it shows is that Moirville and/or the Hilborns stay current with this blog and act accordingly. LOL

      Did someone say it's pathetic they play to the very small niche crowd that follows VM -- Yep, totally pathetic. Especially considering that these fans don't care. They follow the sham's social media activities to roll their eyes and in turn mock the Moirs and Scott's extremely idiotic fake love life. No one is following this sham and admiring Scott, nor Casssandra, nor any of the other pathetic players.

      Delete
    19. I guess my point is, it's so telling. Cathy Hilborn isn't a skating person. Her kids did synchro or took lessons, so what, what is that compared to more than a generation in Ilderton, a successful husband, adult kids. But this sham opportunity arises and it becomes the organizing principle for their lives. Everything else takes a back seat. This is a married man, Scott Moir, married to Tessa Virtue, and they have a child. But the supporting players, for them, the sham is THE starring role in their lives. It's pathetic. To Cathy Hilborn, she's now a skating insider. She's now invested. OMG, my kid is on the Scott/Tessa team (hoaxing their fans, btw, that's Cassandra's invaluable contribution - the scam part) - I have standing.

      Delete
    20. This was the original message on fb

      http://it.tinypic.com/r/2jcxl0/5

      Delete
  27. Well I prefer Casey Virtue's (Tessa's brother) recent tweet today - being supportive of VM...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What did he say?

      Delete
    2. He said something like "Fantastic skating today in [GPF] by my sister and Scott." and then he hashtagged something like steps to Sochi.

      Delete
  28. oy canada, do you agree w/me about the lifts and how the last lift needs to go back to finlandia style? what is your critique on their lifts this year as of GPF? i think the first lift is probably the most incredible lift i have ever seen in ice dancing. nothing compares.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I miss the transition into the split in the final rotational. I think the first lift trumps the Goose and is the most incredible lift ever seen in ice dancing. It's pure dancing. That it's not maxing out the GOE is another travesty.

      I will have to re-view the Finlandia lifts to see if I agree, but I am not an armchair critic of VM when it comes to their content. They and Marina are brilliant. I trust all three enough (as a fan) to know that if they've made certain choices, they know better than anybody else - anybody else.

      I don't feel that way about all skaters. Sometimes when I see a program - such as Mao Asada's under Tarasova, I think no no no - and second guess left and right. I second guessed S&S's decision to try a quad throw, because element to element, their technique is as strong as V&T's. Where V&T were killing them was in sustained power and speed and assurance in and out of elements and transitions. Since S&S's technique was solid, it seemed to me that to be competitive their best approach was to train power and speed, and then it would be mano a mano. More effective than a program that was fast in parts, sluggish in parts, and then muscled a quad throw at a stand still near the end.

      But with VM and Marina, I know enough to know I don't know better than they do. Not about content.

      Delete
    2. That lift, as well as the first rotational, are off the scales. Just as "The Goose" was to Mahler, "The Swan" and the "Eggbeater" are to Seasons. Amazing.

      Delete
    3. I have a soft spot for "The Goose", particularly the Olympics version; it is the more aesthetically pleasing for me. When executed well it really gives me the impression that Tessa is about to fly off. In terms of difficulty, however, I think Seasons' "The Swan" (I presume the 1st lift) beats Goose, hands down. BTW, I just noticed both lifts are named after fowl...

      3:07, which lift is the "Eggbeater"?

      Execution-wise and content-wise, if the Seasons lifts are getting VM the points they need, I won't argue the inclusion of any of them. I like "The Swan", the curve lift (which VM do better than everyone else), the last rotational (as it was done at Skate Canada) and the choreo lift (as done at Finlandia). I'm afraid I don't like the 1st rotational much, though.

      Delete
    4. 3:42: I'm Anon 3:07; the Eggbeater is the first rotational; it is so scary to watch, the speed at which Scott is going at, and Tessa's position; if she is so much as a millimeter out of position, she would go flying into the crowd.

      I too loved the last rotational as SC, and the choreo lift done at Finlandia. I like the new-ish entry into the choreo, where Tessa is just leaning back and Scott grabs her skate; her position is divine.

      Delete
  29. This poster on icenetwork is seriously dense:

    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2013/12/07/64469684/davis-white-outpace-virtue-moir-in-dance-thriller

    "'m starting to get a bit boggled with the scoring in Ice Dance this Season.. Too many teams are being tossed all over the map from one event to the next. Davis and White absolutely deserve to be the top team this season. But truthfully .. There are a few other teams that should and were coming closer to rivaling Virtue and Moir. Again.. I love their skating and they have incredible technique. But this is absolutely their worst free-skate as it's a lull to similar comparisons to programs from their past. It's has a boring tired factor instead of a wow factor. I hope going further.. Judges start mapping out/making sure the scoring is actually correct to the skating both artistically and technically.. And really evaluate a clear view great skating on skating and not scoring on names nor reputation. "

    Who's the team getting overscored on so-called reputation? D/W, that's who.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. the american public can be so delusion and uniformed sometimes.

      Delete
  30. The best line is "Too many teams are being tossed all over the map from one event to the next"...is this person for real...in ice-dance...placements have been fairly consistent...we might not agree with them but they are consistent...If Seasons has a boring tired factor then let's play at least 4-5 FDs from DW back to back on youtube and tell me after FD#2 - you are not living the movie - GroundHog Day with Bill Murray..again..why can't DW fans explain what makes DW great or better than VM or the Shibs for instance...how come nobody is criticizing VMs short dance this year - oh - they can't because they have no leg to stand on...fine - you want to support a team - that's your choice - but if you are going to bash another team - at least come up with qualities about your team...

    ReplyDelete
  31. i did some calculations even though im bad at math but i found out that through the gp season v/m's SD score has improved by an average of 3.45 points whereas d/w's SD score improved by an average of 1.33 pts. V/M's free = avg of 3.92 pts d/w's free = avg 1.23pts. my question is, can someone who is better at math confirm this/calculate the projected score or w/e its called? now that we have the gpf result?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's canadablue, I'm not sure if you're referring to what I had in a couple of my videos. The projected score thing was just something I made up for fun, and I was using percentages. I probably will update them, but I won't get to it immediately. Is this what you're asking though?
      How much did the GPF scores this year grow compared with an average of the first two GP events
      V/M SD - 4.5%
      D/W SD - 4.0%
      V/M FD - 5.3%
      D/W FD - 0.8%

      Delete
    2. do you think v/m's score will continue to grow like 5%?

      Delete
  32. GPF comparisons are coming ASAP, but I finished these first because they were almost done...
    Carmen vs Scheherazade
    http://youtu.be/d_3jpBa76OU
    The overzealous lift coverage is for everyone fed up with Doris. One major flaw in the "stool" theory, which I don't think anyone has mentioned, is that Tessa's actual behind is not resting on anything.

    Also The Waltz Goes On vs My Fair Lady
    http://youtu.be/Ia6XNHKc0l4

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. thanks!
      someone mentioned that she was balancing on her thighs and Doris said that still counted as sitting and was not at all different from sitting on your behind...you just readjust your center of gravity. She either does not comprehend or is choosing to ignore what that entails. you rely strongly on your core to allow you to hit and keep that position. what she says is in complete opposition to basic physics.

      Delete
    2. Oh ok, I must have been too busy rolling my eyes to read that thread carefully haha. But wow, I can't believe she tried to go here. Try "sitting" on a stool or bench with your thighs only with your butt hanging over the edge. Your core is suddenly engaged much much more than before. And that's just one aspect of how stupid this theory is.

      Delete
  33. So I read something on golden skate about how every time Tessa and Scott have had this American judge on the panel there has been a mysterious judge who gives them awful PCS. That really bothers me. - from FSU

    Who is this judge?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. According to GS, USA judge Shawn Rettstatt:

      http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?43013-Ice-Dance-FD-2013-14-Grand-Prix-Final&p=802789&viewfull=1#post802789

      So apparently Shawn Rettstatt is judging in Sochi.

      Delete
  34. Supposedly, a Shawn Rettstatt.

    From MattK's post in GS' GPF Ice Dance FD thread:
    "Interestingly enough in the FD at these Worlds (2013), unlike the SD, SHAWN RETTSTATT (USA) was not drawn to judge on the FD panel. And surprise, surprise. In the FD NO one judge gave V/M any low mark at all. In fact EVERY single one of them gave them at least a 10.00 somewhere in PCS and all marks across the FD panel were consistently in the mid to high 9s - 10s: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FD_Scores.pdf

    I think it's hilarious whichever judge gave V/M 5s in all PCS marks at 2011 4CC, though.

    You mentioned that "But in the end, again, it doesn't matter because the scores were thrown out". But when marks are so close between V/M and D/W, it does make a difference. At this particular GPF in Japan this one judge's marks for V/M were glaringly obvious in both SD and FD (8s?) that I hope is looked into.

    I think someone posted here that Shawn Rettstatt will be the US Olympic ice dance judge in Sochi. Goody."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. can we complain about this?! this is a red flag

      Delete
  35. Apparently Nicky Slater is actually aware of the audience reactions to his commentary. In one of the videos of the warm up groups posted by Frida40 on Youtube he mentioned he got a little shade thrown at him when he compared Meryl and Charlie to ballet dancers.

    And am I the only one who finds it hilarious how annoyed Charlie looked at the Gala performance when Meryl tried to look lovey-dovey in the spin and he just looked the other way ? He really can not pretend to find Meryl even remotely attractive. I almost feel sorry for her because she at least tries to fake chemistry and connection but Charlie can not be bothered at all.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, his girlfriend IS Tanith Belbin (looks nothing like Meryl). He's probably just a guy who can't act romantic towards a platonic partner. It's really not in his wheelhouse, lovey-dovey acting. Scott, on the other hand... Nevermind. As great as Scott is romantically projecting on the ice (for real), he carries it over to off-ice sham.

      I agree that Meryl tries harder at the faking chemistry stuff, but it's really hard to play off a partner who doesn't want to participate (or doesn't have the innate/practiced ability to participate).

      Delete
    2. 8:51, that's all Nicky Slater said, that he got shade thrown at him? I'm just curious if he offered a rebuttal/justification for the ballet comparison, or if he just made the shade remark in passing.

      No one who has watched ballet and paid attention, even if it's just on Youtube, would compare DW to ballerinas and danseurs. They don't have the posture, carriage, extension, lines, port de bras, etc.

      Delete
    3. I do find that really weird with them, 8:51, especially as it's so consistent. He doesn't look at her. They've been together as a team as long as Scott and Tessa. The families are close. They seem perfectly comfortable interacting. Looking at someone is difficult while skating, so maybe that's part of it. Maybe it has something to do with Charlie's equilibrium. We'd have to see him skate with someone else to see if it's Meryl-specific or not.

      Delete
    4. @9:35 This is the video http://youtu.be/C2isE49be3I He says he stands by what he said and justifies it with the physicality and the athleticism of DW's FD.

      @OC I find it very odd that Charlie can't look at Meryl even when they are only skating at a gala and they don't have to focus on the technical elements and he hardly breaks into a sweat. Actually it shouldn't be a problem for him.
      I would assume that this is something that ice dancers ( or dancers in general ) learn from an early age and even teams who don't have natural chemistry or have problems to create romantic chemistry manage it to at least give the impression of some sort of connection between the partners. If even siblings can do it one would think Charlie could jump over his own shadow once in a while and look Meryl in the eyes.

      Delete
    5. @Anon 8:51: I sent Eursport an email after the NHK to call Nicky Slater out on his BS; here's the email:

      Dear Eurosport,

      I am once again writing to convey my utter dismay of Mr. Nicky Slater’s and Chris Howorth’s commentary during the ice dance segment of the recent NHK figure skating competition. Once again, they showed little substance and much hyperbole in their commentary.

      Once again, Mr. Slater forgot that he was commentating an athletic event and instead gave fashion commentary when referring to Alex Shibutanis’ (of the US) costume, again citing his displeasure that it was too simple. It seemed like he spent more time commentating on that than their actual performance.

      Mr. Slater then had much to say about Elena Ilinykh’s and Nikita Katsalapov’s (of Russia) entrance after their names were called and how it put him off, but I fail to see the how that is anyhow relevant to the SKATING.


      Delete
    6. con't from 1:43 pm:

      Which brings me to the actual commentary of the skating…it was devoid of any substance or critical analysis, especially when it came to the two performances of Meryl Davis and Charlie White (of the US). In their short dance, Mr. Slater marveled at their “deep edges”, yet even with my untrained eye, I could observe much snow coming off their blades and I could hear scratchiness in their edges (which is saying a lot, considering I was watching their performance on a laptop). His assertion that “they were going 100 miles an hour” was a curious one, because during their midline step sequence, they looked very slow and laboured to me, and their edges did not seem to be generated from their blades and soft knees, but rather, driving down the on the blades in an unnatural manner. Their so-called “closed hold” was not closed hold at all, because their torsos were far apart, and they did not hit any matched, extended or elegant lines. Yet it was not explained to us, the viewers, why they were over 20 points clear of their nearest competitors, when their competitors where able to achieve speed from their blades while maintaining close dance hold.

      The commentary during their freedance was completely devoid of objective analysis and was frankly, embarrassing to listen to. Mr. Slater compared Davis/White to ballet dancers, going so far as to compare Charlie White to a “ballet guy” (an inelegant and incorrect choice of words; I think what he meant to say was “a male ballet dancer”). Clumsy choice of words aside, how can Davis/White be compared to ballet dancers, when their skating is filled with lifts that involve Charlie yanking, grabbing, and hurling his partner around with all the elegance of discus thrower, all the while rocking unsteadily on his blades? How can Meryl be compared to a ballerina, when she clearly cannot hold any elegant positions in their lifts, and can’t extend her free leg or point her toes?

      The last straw was at the end of the performance, when Mr. Slater practically begged the judges to award them with more 10s; his exact words were “Really judges, come on now, this is fabulous.”

      What is a fabulous about a performance filled with lunges, hops, skipping, two-footed skating and open holds to compensate for poor skating skills as previously explained? What is fabulous about a team, of the eight teams that competed, they were one of two teams that completed only two twizzles in their twizzle pass (the other team was the team that finished in last). The teams that finished 2-7 all completed three twizzles in their twizzle pass. Why can’t Mr. Slater or Mr. Howorth enlighten us as to why two twizzles, poorly executed at that, as they don’t cover much distance, grind to a halt on the second twizzle, don’t carry a sustained edge on the exit, and don’t vary in arm positions or phasing in the short or free dance are so fabulous above all other twizzles. What is fabulous about exiting their crude, inelegant lifts not on a running edge, but either pivoting onto the opposite foot or a knee slide?

      I confess, I’m not a judge, but as an above-average casual observer of the sport, even I can see that their skating leaves is far from fabulous and leaves much to be desired. Surely, as a former ice dancer himself, Mr. Slater can offer up more meaningful and critical commentary than what he offered here.

      Delete
    7. Charlie White is never so passionate about Meryl as when he's half a rink away. Watch them perform. The further apart they get, the more ardent he becomes. He starts celebrating his love with the audience.

      Delete
    8. Con't from 1;45:

      Really, Mr. Slater and Mr. Howorth, come on now, you can do better than this. Stop insulting the intelligence of viewers with such ridiculous, non-specific and breathless commentary that diminishes your credibility as commentators and makes a mockery of the sport of ice dance.

      This is not a fashion show or theatrical performance; this is an athletic
      contest, which is supposed to compare skating skills, technical elements and the quality of their execution. Give it the respect it deserves by actually commentating and critically comparing the skaters on the basis of their SKATING.

      I sincerely hope we are not treated to more of this non-commentary for the remainder of the season, especially as we head into the Sochi Olympics.

      Delete
    9. "Charlie White is never so passionate about Meryl as when he's half a rink away. Watch them perform. The further apart they get, the more ardent he becomes. He starts celebrating his love with the audience."

      Oh my goodness, that is so true. From S&D all the way up to Scheherazade. I wonder if subconsciously, he's reacting like a young boy: "OMG a girl cooties!!!".

      Delete
    10. What bothers me about Nicky Slater is he isn't describing what's actually taking place on the ice. He doesn't just do it with DW - he's done it this season with both B&S and G&P that I've seen. B&S are wildly messy and he's talking about power and speed. And then just to show how careless in every respect, when MTM were skating their Henry the V program two years ago, Slater shared he didn't know which wife Kirsten was supposed to be. So he didn't bother to remember the difference between Henry VIII and Henry V. This year, every time Dylan and Kirsten do their lift with the lunge entry, he falls over himself about what a feat of strength. It could be in the gym, all the same to Eurosport. Why don't they share what makes it worthy SKATING? Dylan enters the lift from a lunge position and by the time he's upright he's covering a great deal of ice with a lot of smooth power and control. That's why it's impressive. The skating.

      Delete