Sunday, December 8, 2013

Judge Shawn Rettstatt

I'm reposting this from goldenskate by request (not the request of the poster, Matt K.  At someone else's request.)

It's about this guy:
Shawn Rettstatt
Here's the link to the original post.

Matt K's goldenskate post about Judge Shawn Rettsat of the US

Can anyone confirm that Rettstatt is on the Olympic dance panel?

Matt K's post (other people's quotes to which he is responding are in blue and purple regular type and italics). His post is in bold and italics. His pdf links are live on his post or they can be cut-and-pasted from here, I believe, but the links in this re-post aren't live, obviously.

Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/SEG008OF.HTM
Mr. Shawn Rettsatt of the USA
Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
Why are people assuming that it's him? Just because he's American? We don't know who gave what score (to all our chagrin), so I don't think it's fair to accuse him.

Shawn Rettsatt has been judging for years. If he was scoring people to undermine competitors, certainly he would have had a talking to by now.

ETA: If there's some history of him scoring V/M low in past events, then perhaps there's validity in the assumption, however please point that out rather than throwing generalities.

ETA2: Okay, apparently there was a judge at the 2011 4CC that gave V/M 5s in PCS and it happened to be that Shawn Rettsatt was on the judging panel. However correlation=/=causation. Unless it's been publicly declared somehow, there is no way to prove he was the judge in question in either situation. It's speculation at best. http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc..._SD_Scores.pdf
Since you asked I'll take you up on your offer. I researched the events that SHAWN RETTSTATT (USA) has judged V/M in from all the events from last year and this year. And in these events that Shawn Rettstatt was judging V/M, there is always one judge's set of marks for V/M that are significantly lower than the rest . Most interesting is at Worlds 2013 SD (where he sat on the panel and V/M got lowballed by one judge) vs the FD (in which he did not sit on the panel and V/M's marks rose again). I'll get to this near the end of the post.

CoR 2012: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2012/
V/M judge #5 SD:

GPF 2012: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/
V/M judge #1 SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._SD_Scores.pdf
V/M judge # 5 FD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FD_Scores.pdf

GPF 2013: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/
V/M judge #7 SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._SD_Scores.pdf
V/M judge #1 FD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FD_Scores.pdf

Worlds 2013, SD:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013
V/M judge #1 SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._SD_Scores.pdf

In the FD, unlike the SD, SHAWN RETTSTATT (USA) was not drawn to judge on the FD panel. And surprise, surprise. In that segment, V/M didn't get lowballed by a single judge. In fact every single one of them gave them at least a 10.00 somewhere in PCS and all marks across the FD panel were consistently in the mid to high 9s - 10s: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FD_Scores.pdf

I think it's hilarious whichever judge gave V/M 5s in all PCS marks at 2011 4CC, though. Shawn Rettstatt or not, seeing those numbers on paper is pretty funny You'd think that she or he would know better and might actually be asked to provide some explanation in the roundtable discussions.

You mentioned that "But in the end, again, it doesn't matter because the scores were thrown out". But when marks are so close between V/M and D/W, it does make a difference. At this particular GPF in Japan this one judge's marks for V/M were glaringly obvious in both SD and FD (8s?) that I hope is looked into.

I think someone posted here that Shawn Rettstatt will be the US Olympic ice dance judge in Sochi. Oh Goody. When that time comes I'll keep my eyes peeled for a set of marks given to V/M that rivals that of Chock/Bates

***********

Rettstatt lowballs VM in skating skills and linking moves.

I love Mrs. P. Oh it couldn't be, because if one judge were consistently screwing over VM, he'd be given a good talking to!

Yes, because figure skating is so so so so on the up and up. And judges faithfully refer to the rulebook when they score skaters. They're not scoring who is "tight with their music" "gives 110%" or "the real deal"; they're not getting the dirt done in GOE and pcs. It's strictly by the rulebook.


All the practices required in the judging game are there to promote the impression of integrity and to cover their asses, not to ensure actual integrity. We all know there are businesses that do the same thing; it's not unique.

I haven't read all that many interviews with judges, but the ones who do speak out sound like morons. I don't know what they're doing at those seminars - maybe making sure they know enough to pass the tests that get them credentials, and then that's the end of applying their training to their judging. I'm not simply referring to the judge who posts on fsu, but the former judge quoted as saying Katerina Witt was Carmen and other incisive observations about skating merit.

I'm sure everyone's eyes are rolling in the back of their heads when some people wax sanctimonious about how the ISU regulates itself to assure integrity. The ISU regulates itself to assure its ass is covered.

The incremental dings in the scores that make sure this skating team scores lower than the other skating team. The fact that CoP is pseudo statistical means that the dirt can be done in the margins, with fractions and shades, a lot of little point leaks, and then the protocols sheet looks on the up and up. One of the ways to cook the scores is to be the outlier intentionally, so you're the one tossed and the lowest score that would have gotten tossed stays in. The lowest score could be from a judge scoring more conservatively across the board than the rest of the panel. So for Virtue and Moir, that judge is counted because you scored much lower and got your scores thrown out. For Davis and White, you don't need to score higher than the highest scoring judge, you just need to score higher than the conservative scoring judge, so Virtue and Moir get that person's low scores factored in, Davis and White don't.

And we can't even tell if Virtue and Moir's Judge 2 is Davis and White's Judge 2, for example, because the ISU even wants THAT secret (because of that danger of undue influence and bribery which secrecy actually promotes, so that's classic ISU up is down logic). The ISU is the mafia of sports.

After this weekend's event, Scott echoed earlier quotes from Charlie about what a great story is this rivalry. It is? A rivalry where one team is never permitted to defeat another, even when the winners are outskated? What kind of story is that? Virtue and Moir aren't allowed to beat Davis White.

As to the integrity of the sport, in 2010 Marina Zoueva and Igor Shpilband said they had no idea until the ice dance event itself if their teams would be allowed to prevail. Everyone agreed that the ice dance event at Worlds 2009 came down to who coached whom. I suppose since Meryl and Charlie started winning everything that's when the sport became clean.

Here are some quotes from a 2009 interview with Maia Usova:

What are your thoughts on ice dancing today? Do you follow it? Ever since I decided to become a certified technical specialist – yes. I don’t know why, but I suddenly thought of getting back into elite figure skating. I still can’t explain it. I guess it’s because of what I saw, that most technical specialists are Canadians and Americans. Until recently, there was only one of ours, Sergei Ponomarenko. I thought this was wrong, I guess. You can always see that even technical specialists have their biases. The fact that such a judge receives practically no compensation only exacerbates the problem. I think that if those people had a solid salary, they would at a minim fear losing it.

Do you like that work? Honestly, I’m not sure yet. If I didn’t have a husband that makes me feel safe and protected in every way, I wouldn’t be doing it. I wouldn’t live in Russia, either. What’s more, over the last two years I’ve acquired quite a few enemies because of my work. Some Russian coaches just expect that I must automatically give their athletes high levels. But I can’t do that when the stuff isn’t there. Sometimes, though, they just don’t understand.

Rettstatt was on the USFSA board of directors, at least in 2005. He's a high profile member of the USFSA, appears at general conferences and seminars. He's one of their representatives. He's not somebody who is going to be taken aside. He's somebody who takes others aside.

www.usfsa.org/Content/2011InternationalSelections.pdf

www.usfigureskating.org/content/BOD-ROA-May-Nov-2007.pdf

He's not just a judge and former skater, his history is a high ranking voting member of the USFSA infrastructure.

Furthermore, if this is him, do we really think he's the only rotten apple in the barrel? That when you have a situation that we had this weekend, that the incremental differences leaving DW in first by an under two point margin is just how it all shook out?

When there's an off the grid mark, the purpose is to keep in the next lowest that would otherwise be thrown out. If it's Rettstatt, I'm sure he didn't invent this. If quick-on-the-uptake fans figured this out a long time ago, you know judging panels have.

Do we think there's only corruption in Russia among judges from former eastern bloc countries or countries with a big population from there?

Rettstatt IS fb friends with Jacquie White, but also with David Islam. Islam's a coach, though, not just a (grateful?) dad. It's like Tanith said - you need your judge there. And I guess not just to give you what you deserve, but to block your opponents.

 Ice dance is corrupt. It's always been corrupt. It's corrupt today.

55 comments:

  1. Notice that this judge is lowballing them the most in the 2 PCS categories weighted the most: SS and TR. he's giving them 8s in these categories. Ridiculous.

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    1. The marks this judge gave to V/M at GPF was worse. He was the only judge to give them the lowest mark in each 5 PCS categories in both SD and FD. And 8s for SS and TR in both SD and FD. Ridiculous indeed.

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    2. The fucked up thing is apparently the judge can just say it was a mistake, I meant to type an 8 not a 5. And the ISU doesn't let them correct it.

      Anon at 8:59, excellent point that this foolery is going on in the most heavily weighted categories.

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    3. The other thing that's just as bad is how mistakes for D/W were not docked for. There were definite problems with the twizzles in the SD and maybe the FD too. A few of the half-asses judges gave them a GOE of +3 and a 10 in the Interpretation/Timing of the PCS on an element with a frigging mistake.
      Double standards everywhere you look when it comes to dance and the US.

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  2. I'm curious about what the PCS and total scores would look like if VM's lowballed marks were dropped and replaced with an average of what the other judges gave them.

    "After this weekend's event, Scott echoed earlier quotes from Charlie about what a great story is this rivalry. It is? A rivalry where one team is never permitted to defeat another, even when the winner's are outskated? What kind of story is that? Virtue and Moir aren't allowed to beat Davis White."

    I'd love to know what Scott really thinks about all of this.

    This is no good story. There are a lot of people who have been ice dance fans for decades who are planning on being done after Sochi out of disgust for the situation. Figure skating has been bleeding fans for years, and now the scoring in ice dance is alienating the fans who have been around forever to the point that even they are ready to call it quits. If the point of this nonsense was to increase interest, it sure is backfiring.

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    1. I don't think pushback will help because Davis White are American. The American media seems to be the media that makes the sport react. Or at least the Olympic committee. Shit, the American media got Canada a gold medal in pairs after the fact. The American media doesn't know figure skating, so they're not going to look at Davis White and see the problem there. They'll do what everyone who doesn't bother learning does - see style differences. Oh VM are elegant and beautiful but DW are technical and fast.

      The sport gets away with it because people who cover it don't know the sport. I think the ISU, proactively, doesn't want an informed public, and doesn't want informed commentary either.

      How does gymnastics do it? I know gymnastics isn't always the purest of the pure when it comes to scoring, but they have informed people commenting on events. You could never have a Davis White of gymnastics. In that sport, you actually have to do it. Here, element execution, with the exception of steps, doesn't have to use skating skills. PAIRS does. Why doesn't ice dance?

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    2. I think it would be interesting to go back and look at Meryl and Charlie's scores and see what scores get thrown out. Do they ever run into somebody who scores them super low? For that matter, they don't ever seem to run into a low scoring panel. Every season Scott and Tessa show up somewhere where it's all "Well, this is a very strict tech caller." or "It was low scoring across the board." Somehow Davis White never encounter a low scoring panel.

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  3. i'm glad someone found out about this judge. usfsa and isu corruption at its best

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  4. oy canada, why not start an online petition with these strong allegations to bring attn to them in time for sochi? name/shame campaign?

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    1. IA! someone start a petition

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  5. I for one think this is great. We needed some explanation for this scandal. Now the story needs to break. This reminds me of a month before Vancouver when the US judge suddenly realized Plushenko and Joubert didn't have transitions and sent out an e-mail which got published, and suddenly for the first time in years the judges in Vancouver marked down Plushenko's transitions.

    Skate Canada, or whomever, has to open an inquiry into this judge and get it into the real press. People are starting to notice how VM can never win and it isn't down to "mistakes." Every Russian skater who's commented thinks VM were robbed at Worlds, and while Seasons initially wasn't getting love, the consensus seems to be a lot of people are "confused" at how a clean VM lost this GPF with their superior skating.

    The scores are close enough now that the tide can turn. It's great that blogs, comments, and FSU posts are pointing out the technical stuff. It's showing the ISU that all the fans aren't complete morons and they can't just do whatever they want and we'll accept it. Let's make this Shawn Rettstatt and other judges think twice before they oh so "cleverly" throw VM an 8 cause they think no one's watching. I'd rather the issue of DW's overmarking be addressed, but this is good too.

    PS OC when you copied that post some of the links contain "..." so we can't copy and paste them. If you go back to the post in question, you should be able to "copy link location" and amend the links here... just in case the post at Golden Skate somehow were to wind up getting deleted.

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    1. That's what I notice, and that's why, unlike some, I believe we've seen enough to know the outcome in Sochi. Do we know all of the agendas behind it, no. We do see enough to know that Virtue and Moir can't win; aren't allowed to win vis a vis DW. The last time they competed against DW, at Worlds, the judges told us this with 77 points when DW skated in the second to last flight with numerous skaters yet to skate, and far from their best sd showing. The judges also took off for VM's twizzles and we see here they don't notice DW's twizzles. Suddenly, against Virtue Moir, everything DW do gets elevated past what they achieve when DW competes against anyone else. That's because DW's scores are earned by VM on the ice, not by DW on the ice. VM earn the scores, the judges give those scores to DW with some extra.

      VM can never win. There's no rivalry. There's no contest. They can't win.

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    2. I see the comments stating things like they're closing the gap, they're getting stronger, and similar, and I'm just left scratching my head. Are these people not paying attention to what has been going on? DW are always going to be scored so that VM cannot win, even if it's down to 0.01 points, the judges are always going to make sure there's a gap that VM cannot under any circumstances get past.

      The Sochi OGM was gone the second that VM had to stop in the FD at 4CC. I think it was dicey prospects after the unnecessary fit the media threw after the FD in Nice, but 4CC was the point of no return.

      I think that without the stop, VM would have won there. Even if that didn't carry over into a win from worlds, I think it would have helped keep them into the fight. But, they had to stop, and didn't win 4CC. Without 4CC, they weren't winning worlds. Even if they had been perfect in the SD, they wouldn't have won worlds because, like you said, 77 points for DW's SD.

      For VM to win in Sochi, something would have to physically prevent DW from being there.

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    3. I also think people would do well to keep in mind that not even silver is guaranteed. The Russians want something higher than bronze. DW are getting the gold, no question. That leaves VM vulnerable.

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    4. Disagree, @1:31. There is no way V/M will fall below second place unless they splat several times. Sorry, I know the judging hinkiness is egregious but B/S will never defeat V/M, whether it's on home ice or not. THAT would actually trigger an investigation because EVERYONE would know it's a bullshit result.

      I believe the intent in slightly marking V/M lower on one set of more heavily weighted marks is to make sure those marks are thrown out so the next lowest will be counted. It's just enough to create a gap of below a point to about a point and a half or so. That's how it works. It's a slight tweaking, not a major TAKE ALL THE POINTS AWAY FROM V/M situation.

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    5. ^^^ That's why the issue is more about over-marking D/W than it is about under-marking V/M. There's only so much V/M can be under-marked without it setting off alarm bells and the ISU doesn't want another major ice dance scandal on its hands.

      Remember when V/M were given all 5s by one judge at 4CC in 2011? It was noticed by a lot of people and V/M have not received marks that low since then. It was too egregious. I saw in another comment elsewhere that someone wondered why no one questioned that at the time? They did question that judge.

      During this weekend's SD, V/M received a world record score and defeated D/W in the TES. What happened? D/W won on PCS but barely, and it's because V/M were given the lower marks in the two most heavily weighted categories. It was subtle, but it went hand in hand with D/W being given slightly higher PCS marks, and that was all they needed to win. It's the subtlety that makes a marking scheme work under CoP, at least where these two teams are concerned.

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    6. "The Russians want something higher than bronze."

      B/S have never been within less than 12 points to V/M all season long. V/M could skip two full elements in a program and still come out on top of the Russians.

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    7. Never underestimate the power of the Russians to broker a deal. They could blackmail based on what's going on with DW. Silver for BS, or they blow the whistle.

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    8. And implicate themselves in a blackmail scheme at the same time (which would happen since the US media is the most powerful)? Nope.

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    9. The Russians have ZERO credibility and would not win in the media battle that would follow. They can't blow the whistle on anyone.

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    10. 1:27, the gap is important because VM are very close now. Freaking .7 in an SD. Less than 2 points overall. That's something where if DW have a small slip and lose an edge somewhere and the caller is honest, VM could edge out a win (should they have to be edging out a mediocre team by the skin of their teeth - of course not, but this is the hand we're dealt).

      The scores are that close that throwing out a few low numbers is making a difference. Without those couple of marks they could have won the SD. I assume the judge giving the 8s to VM is already giving 10s to DW on the most highly weighted components. If said judge has to rethink that and give VM a 9.25 instead, that is a net win for VM, where every previous hundredth of a point counts.

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    11. >>>I believe the intent in slightly marking V/M lower on one set of more heavily weighted marks is to make sure those marks are thrown out so the next lowest will be counted. It's just enough to create a gap of below a point to about a point and a half or so. That's how it works. It's a slight tweaking, not a major TAKE ALL THE POINTS AWAY FROM V/M situation. <<<

      YEP. I hope I'm not crediting the wrong person but I believe this was explained earlier by the poster "mathman" at either goldenskate or fsu. He/she wasn't talking about Virtue Moir specifically, just that an egregious score is given so the next lowest is counted, and that's how it's done. It's a margins game, and it's a scheme for sure.

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    12. "That's what I notice, and that's why, unlike some, I believe we've seen enough to know the outcome in Sochi."

      I do think it's interesting how close these marks were allowed to get. Yes, V/M skated so phenomonally, but it also appears to put them back in the game for those who don't follow the situation as closely as we have. Is there ANY way that D/ W haven't been given the GPF, and the Olympics aren't still open? I do think D/W would have to skate rough again though. And it's just a possibility, one I still think is unlikely.

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    13. I think it's fair to question whether the ISU or whoever has played its hand a bit too early and if that might come back to bite them in the ass. While the closeness of the scoring tempered the reaction a bit, there are a lot of people who are rightly questioning D/W having won this competition given that V/M clearly out-skated them, and I'm not just talking about fans.

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    14. 6:17 - who other than fans? The Eurosport guys thought VM should have won the short, but sent up hozannas after DW's free dance.

      Do you mean not just Virtue Moir fans?

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    15. Not 6:17, but this link is making the rounds: https://twitter.com/mypantsronfire/status/409445312495759361

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    16. This guy can indicate he doesn't agree with the results, and say that a great many informed observers don't agree as well, and he's in the sport. But because he's in the sport, he can't say so publicly.

      That's why this sport is the Cosa Nostra of athletics. I get with him, he needs to protect his client base. But in that case, why say anything at all?

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    17. Maybe he and others on the inside are frustrated? Who knows, maybe there is more going on behind the scenes than we know.

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  6. OC, recently I read an article in Vietnamese sport newspaper (I'm from Vietnam), they stated that Virtue/Moir are not only a couple on ice but off ice, they also are a real couple too. So did they come clean or what?

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    1. They haven't come clean. Maybe the Vietnamese media didn't realize Virtue and Moir aren't out in the open. As the blog as pointed out, the media that routinely covers figure skating knows they're a couple. I feel confident that even if a few years ago Rosie DiManno didn't know they were a couple, after hanging out in Vancouver in 2010 she knew. So if that's correct, I think it's either an assumption by the Vietnamese journalist or the journalist learned they were a couple but didn't get the part that they deny it publicly.

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    2. 9:47
      Oh my, that's hilarious.

      Or maybe the Vietnamese journalist did get the part that they deny it but he/she decided not to play along. Imagine that, perhaps a journalist who refuses to lie to cover someone else's ass.

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    3. I don't know, of course, but I think it's unlikely the journalist took a stand unless they don't intend to cover figure skating again. What a journalist writes, unless it's the New York Times, can make them lose access.

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    4. i wanna see this article lol

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  7. omg, is this a joke? i literally just finished watching dw free skate on nbc coverage of grand prix and it's a joke. it's slow. spins are junior level, and the lifts are not lifts. idk what they are. "the clear favorites for gold" from the morons announcing. this is ridiculous. and a "convincing win" with only a 1.3 points. seriously skate canada is ridiculous. DO SOMETHING

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    1. how are their lifts not lifts? there are a million things to criticize them about, but you choose that?

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    2. "The sport gets away with it because people who cover it don't know the sport."

      This is it. VM have been getting lowballed for a long time but no one (sports' journalists) thought to look into the scoring and figure out what is going on. The DW defenders mostly cite the scores as their basis for saying they're "the best skaters." The judges said so and that proves it's true (unless of course another team gets unexplainably high marks. Then it's a problem). The journalists all jumped on that bandwagon saying the scores say DW are great; therefore, they're great. They would never do that with another judged sport but it must be like this blog has pointed out many times. The figure-skating journalists are groupies, not real reporters when it comes to this sport.

      I for one think it's a good idea to investigate this judge because there is a demonstrable pattern of lowballing VM when he is on a panel. It doesn't IMO prove without a doubt it's on this judge. But the pattern is worth looking into because it points to the corruption going on and any investigation has to start somewhere.

      A huge problem has to also be those seminars the judges attend. People like that judge on FSU or the other Chinese judge who was quoted are getting their nonsense from *somewhere.* Its' not all about ONE judge lowballing scores (5's and 8's for VM - in what planet? It's blatant corruption). It includes looking into what is being said at those seminars because it certainly looks like they're not talking about skating or the rule-book but other ridiculous intangibles like feelings and styles. Stuff that has nothing to do with the SPORT of ice-dance.

      It's the general corruption embedded in ice-dance that allows one judge to be so obvious and careless in his scoring.

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    3. The ISU protects its corruption. It look to me like one of the attractions of the sport is the politics. They don't want to lose it. The stuff Aussie Willie said and that other judge said are sort of similar. If they're getting this from seminars what the fuck? None of this stuff is in the rules governing the sport. But of course, if you're judging the sport so that DW always win, you can't really apply the actual criteria. You have to make them up. The criteria can't be skating.

      This judge, Shawn Rettstatt, is powerful in US figure skating. He's not somebody who is going to get his wrist slapped. He's very connected.

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    4. 12:11 - the ISU IS like the Cosa Nostra, because look how squeamish some people get on screen name forums when it comes to discussing what's behind the hinky judging. And the same people who throw shade at Marina Zoueva based on absolutely nothing, are all "don't take Shawn Rettstatt's name in vain!"

      In no other sport - not soccer, not basketball or hockey, not tennis, is it out of bounds to question either the officiating or "an" official. Plenty of officials have been called out and either made their case or didn't. There is nothing untoward in looking at the pattern when Shawn Rettstatt is on a judging panel when Virtue and Moir, the chief rivals of his Fed's premier ice dance team, are competing. It's getting things out in the open. It's a good faith attempt to keep the sport honest. When bringing up a subject, when mentioning people by name, is supposedly "not done" - what does that say?

      Some people who would rather not look at what is going on with the judging for DW versus VM - and as of this weekend it appears that what is going on is VM are simply and proactively not allowed to win against DW, period, that's a lock - have no problem concocting absolutely baseless theories about Marina and Igor. Igor politicked for the Finnstep and Yankee polka. No proof whatsoever, but people who are sanctimonious about funky judging throw that out as if it's a fact. Marina is actively supporting/rooting for Davis and White, and doesn't give a shit about Virtue and Moir. She's not going to find out what happened with the scores in this competition. Scott says there are things we don't understand from this weekend (he and Tessa, presumably, but why not he, Tessa and Marina and their team at Arctic Edge) - but Marina isn't going to have some conversations? Says who?

      I'd also like to point out that some of the coaches who do use public forums, like interviews, to speak out, don't seem to have much to show for it. Do the judges only hear questions through designated media outlets? If not, how do we know what Marina does, what Igor does or campaigns for?

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    5. I've always been under the impression that a coach speaking out in the media does absolutely no good for the skaters who have been wronged. In fact, it probably has a greater potential to backfire on those skaters than it does to help them in any way or keep the sport "honest." Marina's been in the sport a long time, she likely knows how things get done, when to complain to someone, and how.

      The sport of figure skating isn't honest and the ISU isn't accountable to the public in the way that other sports are. And honestly, in all sports there is usually a great disconnect between public opinion and the actions of its governing bodies, teams, or players, anyway.

      In a sport that is essentially run in a mob-like fashion that isn't really accountable to public pressure in the fashion most people assume it is, the way to get things done is behind-the-scenes. Ice dance cannot afford another major judging scandal, so people aren't going to go whistle blowing to the public, especially not those who make their living in the sport. That doesn't mean that politicized results won't be addressed, though. But if they are, odds are it won't happen out in the open.

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    6. I will also point out that there have been two examples offered of how a calling attention to something caused the sport to alter something. In one case, S&P got an (undeserved) gold medal. In another case, Plushenko's skating got extra scrutiny when it was pointed out, shortly before Vancouver, that his program lacked transitions. Even Frank Carroll, Lysacek's coach, said something like when he saw Plushenko skate it was jump, jump, jump, and only jumps. That was an on the record quote.

      The American media and American interests were behind both of these events. The American media procured the gold for Sale & Pelletier. Carroll gave his quote to an American outlet, I believe, and if the ISU received emails about lack of transitions, it was from Americans.

      I don't think we can expect the American media or the USFSA to raise an uproar about how Davis and White are unfairly held up over Virtue and Moir, and they are the ones who've gotten this stuff done in the past.

      I don't know how Skate Canada's new hires will shape up or shake out, but one thing I do know is prior to very recently the organization was populated by a bunch of clowns pursuing their self-interest and therefore they are in no position to advocate for Virtue and Moir even if they wanted to, and they don't seem to have the interest.

      That's another question - where is Skate Canada? I think I know - I think Virtue and Moir distanced themselves from a couple of Skate Canada personalities and in return Virtue and Moir lost SC's advocacy.

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    7. "I don't think we can expect the American media or the USFSA to raise an uproar about how Davis and White are unfairly held up over Virtue and Moir, and they are the ones who've gotten this stuff done in the past."

      The USFSA has been very busy churning out articles praising DW and every time possible throwing shade on VM (like that time they used a "dance expert" to say VM needed connection). They are the ones who created this narrative of DW being technical geniuses and equal to or better than VM. As far as skating, the American media will parrot all of the USFSA's talking points. There's not a chance in hell they can be counted on to investigate anything that might potentially harm an American Olympian.

      SC has sat back and watched the DW narratives being created and their own Canadian media have been stupid enough to also parrot the USFSA's talking points re. VM vs. DW. They're a bunch of useless morons.

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    8. @7:36

      I'd actually go so far as to say CBC has actively contributed to the DW narratives. They fall all over themselves praising DW and completely ignore their weaknesses. As has been mentioned, the Canadian media fought for S&P when they were beaten by B&S, a superior team with a superior program. Yet they actively contribute to V&M, one of the all-time great teams, being held down by poor judging that has no basis in what is happening on the ice and is contained in the rule book. I guess since they are not losing to Russians but to Americans, things are different?

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    9. I think what also kills me is if a couple of ice dancers interrupt their program, THAT is the kind of picuyane bullshit that people feel comfortable posturing about. Oh the perception of the sport! Oh, it doesn't help our sport!

      But let a two-footing, lunging, hand-holding, torso-gapped, blade-rocking, flat walking team like Davis White get high scores before they even take the ice, let a team like Virtue and Moir never win, because they're not allowed to win, and nobody talks about the perception of the sport.

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  8. this guy can go to hell. does anyone know his address i want to order him 191.35 pizzas.

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    1. That's a very exact amount of pizzas. Did someone eat the other .65% of the pizza before it was delivered?

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    2. the .65% of pizzas were set to the isu for not firing his ass lately.

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  9. is it confirmed that he will be on the panel for the olympics? if so lets start a petiton.

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  10. I dont think as fans that we can let the greatest ice dancing team in history get screwed. Who has clout to post open letter? Petition etc.? Why not try? This has been done before what about Pelletier at Olympics? If it can be done then something can be done going into the season. Does anyone know if any journalist would be willing to run an article on this nonsense?

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    1. i would but im not articulate enough. maybe we can send the evidence to ryan pyette? (oh wait nm the usfsa has already bribed him too) but we can start with news outlets - the star, the montreal gazette, etc. or any other local newspapers. i would but i dont know how. maybe OC can do it for us.

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    2. heck maybe we should contact moirville they are good at complaining

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  11. This is now being discussed in the comments section of a CBC article, and someone mentioned how the commentators are not saying anything about the bad judging. I want to comment but i guess i need an account first. if others here already have an account, maybe you could leave a comment.

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    1. oops. forgot to post the link. here it is:

      http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskating/tessa-virtue-scott-moir-win-silver-again-at-grand-prix-final-1.2454974

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    2. 4:46 Been there, done that at the CBC site. We need to get this type of disgusting behavior/scoring out there before the public and the media. It needs to be noticed and spoken about. The Olympic Committee need to know how dirty ice dance still is and give it the boot for a while.

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  12. Any picture with an ISU JUDGE with a Figure Skating for Dummies book is suspect/hilarious. And these are the people who control the sport? Give me a break!

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    1. I think it was a joke door prize or similar, and this is supposed to be a joke photo. However, he apparently judges Virtue and Moir as if he needs to read that book.

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