Saturday, November 9, 2013

NHK Thoughts

My thoughts are about GOE and how the judges award GOE to Davis & White even when their execution is flagrantly pedestrian, particularly as to form. Isn't good form part of GOE?
Lots of judges gave this exercise in strained compensation +3.  Scott compensates less when Tessa is standing on him. His core is engaged, that's how come.

GOE are sort of bonus points. You get them for the quality of your execution. That is where DW fall down. Look at that up there.

And this:
Meryl can't keep her own leg extended unless it's behind her. As always, Shouldn't Meryl's ability (or inability) to manage her own body be part of GOE? Why did this thing get so many +3s?


One of my impressions is that compared to at least a couple of dancers (and I haven't seen everybody) - DW skate small. Their bodies are tight. Their cores aren't elevated and open, their shoulders aren't open.  Their "footprint" (ice coverage, and power/size of curve they get from each stroke) is small. Particularly compared to two teams I did see - the Shibs, and God help us, Gilles & Poirier. Gilles still needs to get over her skates more - her inconsistency in getting herself over her skates creates instability in things like twizzles, but to give her credit, she skated this program with him - he didn't drag her and she didn't run on her toe picks. The program wasn't the most complex compared to others skating at their level, but it was well put together, worked with the music, and treated Piper as legit instead of a problem the choreography needed to solve - and the judges didn't pretend the pcs were better than they were. That's reserved for DW.

To give Meryl credit, in the second Key Point she got onto the proper edge sooner than she did at Skate America. But GOE is the LAST place they should be earning points. The judges seem determined to hold them up somewhere, but pcs is insane.

And here's some apples to oranges:

At Skate Canada, this straight line was level 4 and
1.42 GOE . Everything about this lift goes to skating skills
(not as a flourish, as in technical mastery). Note the extreme interdependence
(not dependance) the extreme difficulty (oriented in the direction
of  travel, Scott at the same angle as Tessa) and finish it off with Tessa's
extension and Scott's posture and freaking pointed toe. Watch
video of the event to see the security and stability of the lift.
This is DW's curve lift, also Level 4.
It got 1:43 GOE at SA and 1.50 at
NHK. And what's that up there
but a fireman's carry?

The fact that there is nothing in the rulebook to acknowledge that the straight line performed by Scott and Tessa is more difficult than anyone else's, and the fact that it's possible for two judging panels to assign greater GOE to the backpack lift than a judging panel assigned to the execution of the straight line lift means this is not a freaking sport, and if we're going to pretend it's a sport then we need judging panels that know what they're doing and we need a rulebook that makes sense. This isn't really apples to oranges - it's what the hell meaning does GOE even have? As noted before, in the backpack the judges ignore Meryl and Charlie's poor form during the drag and swing, and ignore Meryl's complete dependance upon Charlie to achieve her position and achieve her transition. Not interdependence - dependance. He pins her leg in place, he presses down on it to achieve her transition over his shoulder and wraps her core with his arms to get her to where her knee is pressed on his leg. She relies on external resistance the entire way through this lift to hold her body in position - at every call. Not her balance point - her position.

Figure skating has had issues rewarding athletes who are better than others before. Back in the day, Gordeeva & Grinkov did a split quadruple twist but eventually took it out, because it didn't have any appreciable impact on their marks (in the 6.0 era). That's what we want in sport. We want a sport to have no ability to accomodate itself to advances in technique and execution.

 + 3!
+ 3!
+3!
(Not sure if the hold is legal,
but that's an issue for the
tech caller.)
Also, I noticed this about a change one of the Shib lifts between Skate America and NHK:

At Skate America she rotates into the lift -
a higher quality, more difficult entrance
than swinging/slinging your
partner onto you back. The back end
of this lift (where she's rotated)
was a bit inelegant - she's sort of sagging in it.
Now he's slinging her up there.
The back end of the lift is improved. She rotates her
body horizontally and is now carried higher in
the lift rotation.
Why the change - particularly as her second position - up on his shoulder, shows about the same amount of control in both versions (she wobbles a bit).

I suspect because the sling her up there entrance is quicker than having her rotate up, because it requires less control, and this leaves more time for a better transition into the rotational part of the lift. I think a difficult entrance makes it harder to get the lift in under time.

Should slinging or grabbing and flipping your partner be considered on par with an entrance where you assist your partner as she rotates around her own axis up off an edge? And if you do get that lift under time, shouldn't it get higher GOE? And as +3 is the max, shouldn't GOE be configured so that a purposefully sloppy lift can't get +3? If you're splayed out and crouched over and your form is crap, is high GOE really merited because you do it quickly and execute your crap form "cleanly"? If that's happening, isn't that a fault in the system?

Btw, the photo of the wrestlers tells us a bit about why Meryl maintains the weight she maintains. More contour and you can see clearly that the basics of her lifts with Charlie are primitive. If she looks like a string wrapped in chiffon, the visual is finessed.

145 comments:

  1. This judging is disgusting. The judges might as well just mail in the scores. On top of the technical issues mentioned (ones that are supposed to be accounted for in PCS as well), DW danced the least of any of the top teams. It doesn't take an expert to see that.

    ReplyDelete
  2. So the D/W ubers can't even be bothered to critically analyze their team, because they're "not into that kind of discussion".

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?89565-If-you-were-a-bookie-who-would-you-make-favourite-for-the-Ice-Dance-Olympic-gold&p=4045978&viewfull=1#post4045978

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Then they need to stop saying Virtue/Moir fans are the ones that can't get over them just not being as good technically or whatever. One of them even said "it's crystal clear they are the better ice dancers over the Canadians. More power, cleaner edges and stronger body lines and extensions. "

      Delete
    2. The more they try to explain why they are not breaking down the skating, the dumber and more desperate they come across. The best thing for them to do is just not post at all, because when they respond with things like "I *could* break down the skating, I just choose not to because it isn't important to me" they sound like giant idiots.

      Delete
    3. They funny thing is that mia joy keeps insisting that V&M fans are saying that D&W are crappy skaters--no, D&W's own fans in that thread are doing that by not providing a single response that outlines to D&W's strengths as skaters and dancers.

      Delete
    4. I'm not sure why it matters what that person thinks. She either has no idea why the skating matters or she's decided that to avoid having to admit she doesn't understand it, she'll bellow that it's not important. Which is an absolutely asinine thing to say about a sport in which the skating is judged within a specific set of technical criteria. But that's just the thing. It's such an asinine position to take I'm not sure why there's a need to try and keep punching holes in the bottom of the boat, she's already sunk herself with her comments on the issue.

      Delete
    5. @9:47

      I can understand where you're coming from, but I think posts like mia joy's are symptomatic of a larger problem at FSU, one that OC has addressed in previous posts or comments: a resistance to discussion of technical aspects of the sport of ice dance. There are at least two posters aside from mia joy who called people giving technical analysis bullies or people with too much time on their hands. I wonder how many other people would like to participate in a discussion of the technical aspects of the skating but are scared to because of people like mia joy, tapdancer and the other poster who cried 'bully'. I read the VM thread and have noticed that whenever someone criticizes DW for issues in their skating that can be seen and should affect the scores, some of the DW fans swoop in and try to shut down the conversation by telling everyone in the VM thread and elsewhere how mean and crazy the VM fans are for "insulting" DW like that. It is so annoying because the kind of analysis these people are trying to shut down is exactly what we need more of at FSU. I have learned so much from the VM thread but I am afraid people in there will back down because they are afraid of fueling the the fans wars. It is ridiculous that an in-depth discussion of the actual skating is making people so upset.

      Delete
    6. @11:28, what you're talking about is fan wars. It's about sets of fans trying to yell over each other. Isn't there an ignore feature at FSU? Why not turn it on and ignore those posters?

      I have this sneaking suspicion it's not the other posters coming and trying to shut down discussions that bothers fans the most, because they can always be ignored (honestly, they can. Just skip over their posts and keep the skating discussion going). I think the larger issue is that those fans believe if they don't win those discussions or convince enough people of their legitimacy nothing will change in the sport. But FSU is a symptom of the underlying sickness in the sport, it's not causing it. I think people believe FSU has more power than it actually has, and that includes a lot of regular posters over there. They seem to believe that what they say has influence, but again, the reality is that they're usually only repeating and spreading the tired, decades-old talking points they've been told or heard commentators, members of the skating press, and other people at the top give, mixed in with a lot of snark and petty personal attacks.

      Delete
    7. I think fsu is an odd place. There's very little actual skating discussion over there that relates to figure skating as a sport. Most of the discussion focuses on tangentials, and the most common way a program is discussed is to talk about the package, not the skating. If a poster likes a particular move it's about how it looks, not how it's achieved and the skating skills required to support it.

      So the reality is it's not a figure skating discussion board because there's not much talk of figure skating itself.

      And yet Skate Canada CEO William Thompson had a paid subscription. Parents of skaters and their connections have been known to get into it.

      Why are people involved in the sport at the highest level bothering with a forum where most of the people don't know what they're talking about?

      I think there must be a lot of superstition and politics in the sport itself, a lot of faith in image over reality, and the people inside the sport perpetuate this as much as the fans, or the people inside the sport would have no interest in a place like fsu, let alone the CEO of a major skating federation.

      Delete
    8. @11:55

      Interesting point, but if the people trying to shut down the analysis are doing this in part by twisting some posters words and taking them out of context and posting them in other parts of the board with the intention of damaging the credibility those posters have with other board members, i can see why people would be intimidated to participate in the analysis. And from the pologies i have seen prefacing some analysis, i get the feeling some people feel like discussing the actual skating and pointing out flaws and overscoring makes them bad people. If this is the case, the ignore feature won't alleviate the problem.

      Delete
    9. "I think there must be a lot of superstition and politics in the sport itself, a lot of faith in image over reality, and the people inside the sport perpetuate this as much as the fans, or the people inside the sport would have no interest in a place like fsu, let alone the CEO of a major skating federation."

      Remember what figure skating really is. It's a primetime sport once every four years. That means once every four years, advertisers have to convince a bunch of people who don't otherwise the sport to tune in and keep tuning in. There's no objective scoring, so to keep people interested, advertisers have to focus on sequins, drama, fluff stories, nationalism, and whatever else would be easily understandable to a person who has no clue what the sport is really about.

      What do you think this leads to? Every skater talks about how they work in 4 year cycles building to the Olympics. The Olympics are the be all and end all of their careers. And yet, the public has no clue what they are looking at, but the IOC and advertisers need them to want to care about the sport. So what do you think the focus becomes??? Bullshit, that's what.

      D/W will win because US $$$$ has told the IOC that it must be so, and because their skating is just enough to convince a clueless viewer that they've got what it takes. Combine that with a screaming Scott Hamilton and a drooling Tanith Belbin, plus a slew of articles/fluffs talking about how deserving Meryl and Charlie are, and you've got a winner.

      Of course, if V/M were willing to sell out in another way (instead of choosing to sell out in the way they are doing now), they'd be the clear favorites. You know how much the public would fall for a couple having a baby after the Olympics and returning to win?? It's like a effing Disney tale. Too bad V/M blew their best chance to win.

      Delete
    10. I think remarks like the above (that they'd use their baby for the aw factor) plays into VM's agenda, which is to pretend the sham was a strategy enacted for noble reasons. These noble reasons keep changing, but are always noble. I've had comments here before saying it makes no sense they'd hide a baby, because a baby is a publicity jackpot. That type of comment and the one above play into the delusion that ice dancers will be transformed into rock stars once they've procreated. The reality is Tessa and Scott can, without lying, control how much they're exposed and what people see. Everything they do now is what they decide. They're never exposed to a deposition, a press conference, some type of Meet the Press, or investigation. All of the questions are vetted before they're asked. The topic focus is what they decide. When it comes to publicity outside skating itself there isn't one thing they do that isn't their choice, or, conversely, something they've chosen NOT to do. So IOW they could have a child, stay on message that steers the topic away, people get used to the notion and the competitive quad carries on.

      Of course at that point the relationship "mystery" is solved, the "will they or won't they or are they or aren't they" game is over, and they're not going to be able to use it as bait. That's the real situation here. The relationship is their commodity. It's their hook. It's at the core of their business plan. If they're like, we're married, we have a child, stay on a limited message regarding their personal life and focus on skating as far as their publicity, they don't have the same power to command attention for non-skating ventures, or so they must think. The decision to keep her secret plays into their desire to keep their relationship unresolved in the eyes of the public because that's their power. It's not protecting anything but their marketing power or how they perceive it - their public relations power, ability to divert attention to a photo shoot or reality show. They're protecting that. Not their daughter.

      Delete
    11. And, incidentally, the ability of the Moirville connections to command attention with an instagram, a tweet or a facebook post also dissipates.

      Delete
    12. "The decision to keep her secret plays into their desire to keep their relationship unresolved in the eyes of the public because that's their power."

      I don't see the "power" in their supposedly unresolved relationship when Scott is so deliberate to give out the message he *is* getting laid (with a GIRL) and it's not Tessa. Doesn't that sabotage the whole idea of maybe/maybe not falling in love with Tessa? How does this "marketing tool" work when he's actively dating someone (even if only on social media) and they periodically assign Tessa a BF? Plus there's the never-ending stream of soundbites telling everyone they're platonic, even when no one is asking. It's a failed marketing tool when they do everything they can to neutralize it.

      Delete
    13. For example, Volosozhar/Trankov are doing a good job keeping up the will they or won't they angle. For reference, while Trankov was skating with Mukhortova he had another longtime girlfriend of 16+ years since he was a teenager. Volosozhar and her partner Stanislav Morozov were basically married (common law). When they teamed up, Morozov was part of the coaching team, but then Volosozhar/Trankov allegedly hooked up.

      They have much more reason than V/M to lie about their relationship because there is that salacious angle of potential adultery (no one knows if she broke up with Morozov before moving on and even if she did it's all quite squicky). But do they play games? Nope. Trankov has a very normal instagram with pics of himself and Tatiana hanging out on and off the ice looking friendly and lots of other stuff about Russia and his personal interests (can you imagine Scott Moir doing this)? http://instagram.com/trankov_max# They mentioned it in ONE IFS article more than a year ago, denied it, and have not discussed it ever again. It really is an "are they or aren't they" situation - I think they are because of how they relate to each other, but there's enough evidence to argue either way. One thing is for sure, they are not going all out to talk about being platonic or faking other relationships. They act how they act, and you can think they're a couple or not. That would be a perfect example for V/M, except for the whole having a baby thing complicating matters.

      Delete
    14. @11:55, that's still just fan wars. Posters on a message board do not have "credibility" simply because they're posters. They may think they do, and they might be popular with others, but they're just posters like everyone else. If others take someone's words out of context or twist them around, everyone is free to go back to the original thread and read what was actually written. Some people will always misinterpret other's arguments, either on accident or on purpose. If you can't learn to ignore those people, than what matters most isn't asserting the truth about skating, what matters most is wanting to be seen as some kind of credible authority. But who cares if someone doesn't think you're credible? How is "credibility" defined anyway? Skating speaks for itself. And CoP isn't that difficult to understand as it's laid out. Focus on that.

      There will always be people who don't care for what you have to say. You can let them dictate the terms of what you say and where, or you can dictate those terms yourself, say "screw them, I'm confident in this knowledge," and post the skating breakdowns. It's that simple.

      Delete
    15. @11:55

      I'm 11:05.
      I don't post on FSU. I'm just a lurker so I am only guessing at what is going on because of what I have read there. Apparently some people from the DW thread twist the comments from the VM thread and take them into some members-only section of the board to be made fun of. And I have noticed that a lot of people in the VM thread seem to tiptoe around things and seem to feel bad if they have to say anything not completely positive about DW. That is why I wonder if the tone is changing because of the people who are crying "bully". Maybe I'm wrong, though. just my take on what might be happening there.

      I have to say though that the fans at that VM thread seem more honest and straightforward this season. Not as many of them are throwing out the old "equal but different" myth. That's refreshing.

      Delete
    16. The bookie thread has continued on and some people are trying their hand at breaking down the SD lifts. That is encouraging.

      Delete
    17. 5:19 - I agree about Volosozhar Trankov and have the same take on them as you do. They've managed to be incredibly accessible as personalities and as skaters, without violating their privacy as individuals or as a (possible) couple, or disrespecting other people in their lives. They don't get into our heads. They don't make other people's reactions their responsiblity (unless, from time to time, Max feels as if he could have expressed himself more diplomatically. :) )

      Virtue and Moir, for example, are the sorts of people who wouldn't instagram a photo of themselves in Mexico (as VT did) - I mean, they see that sort of material as their own commodity that they will never share, only exploit, but also - what would we think? And then they'd have to do a, b, and c in response to what they thought we thought.

      No they wouldn't. They wouldn't have to deal with our thoughts at all.

      They pretend their situation is complicated, and it is, but only because they they load a lot of self-serving agenda onto their "strategic decisions" - their own agenda and other people's. The complication stems from that, but they have a habit of off-loading blame to outside factors. They're allergic to taking personal responsibility. It's always - this is the sport, this is the situation, this is how we manage it. Nope. This is the situation YOU created, this is the situation as you chose to see it. Your choice, your responsibility.

      Delete
    18. >>>I don't see the "power" in their supposedly unresolved relationship when Scott is so deliberate to give out the message he *is* getting laid (with a GIRL) and it's not Tessa. Doesn't that sabotage the whole idea of maybe/maybe not falling in love with Tessa? <<<

      Seriously? Have you followed the fandom for the past four years at all? They don't care who he's dating. They see he's in love with Tessa and she's in love with him, and they live in hope something will come of it, girlfriends be damned. Tessa and Scott have played into this from day one. I'm sure I don't need to list the bait Scott and Tessa have set for the fans to provoke them into thinking maybe their status has finally changed and they'll own up to their feelings. The girlfriend is part of the will they or won't they. She's holding down the won't they end of things. The baiting and teasing and cage rattling is the will they. They play one against the other and as one comment here said, a lot of fans have put the bullshit on mute, but that hasn't changed how Scott and Tessa operate, and there are still fans who jump like Pavlov's dog every time.

      Delete
    19. I think that was a popular mentality after Vancouver, but honestly, I'm a lurking member of pretty much every fan community, and at this point I could name maybe two fans who express themselves that way (and choose to believe V/M's story). The rest of those who ostensibly believe they're telling the truth sniff at shippers and endorse V/M's platonic connection and thumb's up whatever they each choose to separately do in their off-ice lives.

      Delete
    20. 9:57 - yes, fans have put it on mute- they either don't buy it or don't care - that's a generalization and I think there are, of course, exceptions but if there were any way to bet this, I'd bet more people would drop dead of real shock if it turned out that Virtue Moir were NOT actually together - and might actually have equal shock if it turned out they weren't married parents. They ARE both of those things, but you know what I mean. I think it would be "I always secretly believed there was something to the stories they were really together even though I didn't say anything."

      But, when I replied to 4:28, I just meant this was the formula Virtue and Moir used. They went heavy with it and it certainly gave them the power to command attention. It didn't sabotage anybody's desire to see them together, or prevent fans from falling on command for the bait. Nobody said - "he has a girlfriend, I guess that's it then." If anything, it made them more eager to see Virtue Moir together.

      4:28 felt that the sham undermined the power VM derived from playing will they or won't they with their relationship. I just wanted to point out that the opposite was true. They spammed facebook in the run-up to the Olympics, put Jessica front and center at the Olympics themselves, denied denied denied, but all Scott had to do was drop the word "Monaco" at a press conference and fans were hoping Jessica was out of the picture and Tessa in the picture. No matter how often they followed this pattern - boom. Fans would take the bait.

      That's what I mean. Him having a "girlfriend" didn't cramp their style or inhibit their ability to bait the fans. It contributed to the narrative. He's with THIS girl who adores him all over social media, but he's not returning the favor. Why? He's in love with Tessa!

      It's old ground. The sham didn't sabotage relationship hopes and speculation, that's all I'm saying.

      Does it still work? No. For a few, but no. And even some of those may just be playing along for the sake of keeping community discussion going, and what they believe privately or say in pm and email could be different. But this hasn't changed Tessa and Scott's style of dealing with the fans. They're stuck on this one, stale way, to the point where they're looking like drag queen versions of what Tessa likes to call "our personas."

      Look at the preview - the hug on the ice. Both of them talking about their special special special unique-tude. Scott dabbling in that heart-flipping but disappointing exercise where he gets all warm, intense, and manly about Tessa - AND HER BOYFRIEND. Both ends against the middle. Having it both ways. That's been the game from the beginning. People are blowing it off (just look at the difference in the comment count between this thread and down below, or the reality show post and the skating posts), but they're stuck on this track.

      Delete
    21. And actually - this IS the skating post! (Forgot that - thought I was in the lying faces post). But this is the skating season and the skating is what is getting attention. When Scott and Tessa drop the reality show I'm sure that will get a lot of justifiable critique and I'll be first in line, but the conversation is going to return to the skating because THAT, and not their relationship, is really what attracts people, and they got so far up their own ass and so sure they were so much smarter than everyone else, they missed it. People might not all be informed about skating, so they might be inhibited about talking skating, but skating is why VM have fans.

      Delete
  3. yep its over. the competition is def. rigged. D/W were worse than SA and they beat their SB. guess rn all we can do is enjoy V/M's skating and their last season because there is NO WAy they're going to win.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It has been 2 months since D/W debuted in SLC. They scored 110.02 there. Tonight, they scored 112.95, only two-tenths of a point a higher than their 112.75 at Skate America 3 weeks ago. In two months time with feedback from two competitions, they've only managed a 2.93 point difference in their FD score.

      This is not over and V/M are so not out of this.

      Delete
    2. "This is not over and V/M are so not out of this."

      Exactly.

      Though I notice as soon as D/W's scores come up a few people always come over here with the typical, emotional "it's all over, V/M should just retire!" comments.

      The end goal is Sochi and where those programs can be in February, and of course we'll have to see how things play out in Paris, but right now of the two teams, V/M's programs are seeing more positive and sustained growth. That's a good thing. If you look at the protocols, the only area where D/W have any discernible lead on V/M TES-wise is on their lift GOEs, but that's common for this time of the season. The PCS differences are also par for the course, all things considered.

      Delete
    3. i dont think you understand. no matter how much v/m improve they are still going to lose. the judges gave d/w 10s for freaking timing and they weren't in sync with the music. v/m can improve immensely and they will still get low scores.

      Delete
    4. Maybe it's *you* who doesn't understand how seasons progress and that D/W pulling in tens in the PCS, especially early on, doesn't mean they'll win in the end. You do not have a crystal ball, and all the moaning in the world about the unfairness of the system doesn't change the fact that right now, D/W are at nearly ceiling levels in their component scores with the TES not far behind, while V/M's program, despite not even being set in stone yet, is seeing a very favorable rate of growth. They are also basically tied with or out-GOE-ing D/W in the step sequences, twizzles, and the spins, and are only being out-GOE-ed by D/W in the lifts by less than one point. They're also behind in the PCS by less than a point. And they've skated one less competition so far.

      The reality here is that not everyone thinks as you do: that it doesn't matter how V/M skate, they won't win because the end game has been preordained. You cannot prove that your prediction will come true. You'll have to wait and see how it works out just like everyone else. So please, spare me with the "I don't think you understand" spiel. I understand fine.

      Delete
    5. I don't think this means VM are out of this, but this score is so upsetting because it does not fit with what's in the rules. Look especially at the marks for skating skills and transitions--they have no connection to reality (actually, none of the PCS marks for DW do). It is just so unfair that other teams who should be ahead of DW or at least have a chance to catch them will never be allowed anywhere near them in the marks. I can't imagine what it must be like to train so hard and know you deserve to be challenging for the top spot in a competition like this but also know that there is no way the judges will allow you that. I am upset for so many of the teams, and for the sport.

      Delete
    6. "I can't imagine what it must be like to train so hard and know you deserve to be challenging for the top spot in a competition like this but also know that there is no way the judges will allow you that."

      That may apply to some lower teams but it certainly doesn't apply to V/M.

      Delete
    7. @11:56

      11:44 here
      I was talking about the rest of the field. I agreed that VM still have a chance.

      My outrage is at the complete disregard for the rules shown by the judges. As I said, there are several other teams who should be either ahead or within striking distance of DW but will never be given that chance. How must it feel for CL to finish 27 points behind a team that is in many ways inferior to them? I find it difficult to watch so many teams get slaughtered in the scores when the skating does not warrant it.

      Delete
    8. v/m aren't outGOEing d/w in the ss in the fd. v/m can barely get a level 3 in their diagonal while d/w already reached level four. yes v/m are growing but they're not growing fast enough.

      Delete
    9. @12:36 AM, I think you should read my post again. I said V/M were basically tied with or out-earning D/W in GOE in the step sequences, spins, and twizzles. I should have been clearer that I was talking about GOE, not levels.

      At NHK on their circular step, D/W were awarded a level 4 and 2.00 in GOE. At SC, V/M were awarded a level 3 and a 2.33 GOE on their circular step. At NHK on their diagonal step, D/W were awarded a level 3 and 2.43 GOE, while at SC V/M were awarded a level 2 and 2.33 on the same element. So yes, technically V/M are tied or out-GOE-ing D/W in the step sequences. They are perfectly capable of pulling in level 4s on both those elements with time and polish.

      And by ss, are you talking about the skating skills component? D/W are ahead of V/M in that category by +0.18. That's a deficit V/M can very much make up.

      V/M's programs are growing beautifully. Just because they aren't growing fast enough for you doesn't mean they aren't growing at a good rate that will put them exactly where they want to be in Sochi.

      Delete
    10. "@12:36 AM, I think you should read my post again. I said V/M were basically tied with or out-earning D/W in GOE in the step sequences, spins, and twizzles. I should have been clearer that I was talking about GOE, not levels......"

      Honestly, what is the point of this analysis? OC has already pointed out that the judges aren't marking what they see. V/M could execute perfectly and receive a level 3, while D/W could flub and receive a level 4. Same with GOE. The scores are unrelated to what is actually happening on the ice.

      V/M's programs may continue to "grow beautifully" but the end game is the Olympics, with sheet full of completely bs scores. If you're in this just to watch beautiful programs, then you'll be fine. If you're in it to watch V/M win, good luck with that one.

      Delete
    11. What is the point of that analysis? It's actual analysis, is the point. Rather than bitching and moaning that the Olympic results are preordained. I'm sorry you seem to find that sort of thing so offensive or ridiculous. I am well aware of the scoring WTFery but there are patterns to it (even with D/W) that become apparent over the course of the season and always leave room for V/M to move in and overtake them if they peak at just the right time and execute. Even this season. Well, especially this season. Can they do it? Of course they can. Will they do it? There's a possibility. That possibility is not dead no matter how much you want to claim it is.

      You can criticize me and others who feel this way all you want. I don't see the point of doing so as I think it's kind of stupid unless you feel some deep seeded desire to force everyone to think the way you do, which despite your wanting what you've said above to be truth, is nothing more than a prediction that, like everyone elses, you'll have to wait and see play out come February.

      Delete
    12. "What is the point of that analysis? It's actual analysis, is the point. "

      So is the analysis OC and others have done this season showing that judges are not judging what is actually being skated. I'm glad that you remain optimistic, but it's a little hard for me to do so when I can see the scores have nothing to do with what is being put out there.

      Delete
  4. This is not a sport. The results are so far removed from reality...I have never seen anything like this. Ice dance is a dirty, dirty game.

    ReplyDelete
  5. 8:30 here.
    I meant to say that the scores are so far removed from reality. Hopping, skipping, and toe-picking the fuck out of your program gets you 9.75s on SS. What a great example this sets for other teams.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. everytime d/w score over 105 a litter of kittens die. ice dance has reverted back to its old political ways and has become nothing but an elaborate beauty pageant

      Delete
    2. DW's programs are laid out to run down the clock and avoid actually skating.

      The fact that, with VM having competed one less time, DW are outGOE-ing DW in lifts is insane. Yes, there's the chance VM will pass them but in real terms they're past them NOW. The program doesn't need to "grow" to deserve higher GOE than DW at this point.

      Scott doesn't hold Tessa's extensions for her. She's not draped across him in a freaking fireman's carry and getting +3. He's not slinging her onto his back like a sack someone is throwing onto the bed of a truck. GOE is supposed to reward exceptional "how". How something is done. That is the very area where DW, in lifts, are weak, and it's where they're at present outpointing VM. It's where DW continue to hide.

      I don't know if the discussion over the past year has had an impact on how DW's twizzles are rated, but I suspect it has and the judges have adjusted their GOE for those twizzles (and dropped the level in performance at least twice, I think) in response to the public noticing, not because the judging has integrity. It actually is tough to explain to the public why two straightforward sets of twizzles done at one speed (well, one attempted speed - the second set slows down both around the axis and across the ice) with no phrasing in between is killing the three set twizzles passes with tremendous variation being done by the other teams. The "hop" doesn't really cover it - especially since there's been teams using the hop that then do more with the two twizzles.

      I do believe so much of this is about what the public notices, period, and not even if what the public notices or questions is viable. Figure skating is a public relations sport. The ice dance rules, to the extent I've been able to read them on line, are a bizarre combination of ultra specific here and completely undefined standards there, and where the standards are undefined DW rake in the points. It won't be a sport til everything is specified and until there are objective mechanisms to determine real speed and a fuller understanding of what's actually difficult. The sport needs to be deconstructed even further, and that deconstruction needs to be in the rules, and the rules have to have real world application to technique. Not oh, if you do this bullshit, we'll raise your level (do a Bielman! Hop into your 2 twizzles)! Level 4 has to relate to actual difficulty, not arbitrary pretend difficulty.

      Delete
  6. I agree that Piper Gilles' skating has improved in that she's getting into the ice better and her blade run is more extended, though hers and Paul's FD is more of the same from them. No interdependent skating, lots of open hold, and posing, posing, posing with voidy facial expressions. Though I'll give them credit for better using their music than in the past.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Since Virtue Moir have essentially forfeited their daughter and personal credibility in the quest for a second Olympic gold, they must believe they have a chance against DW. The scores from NHK seem to indicate it's a possibility.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. i hope too!!! and i believe too that is possibile!! also eurosport of italy say a lot of crap! must be a common evil!

      Delete
    2. Everyone says a lot of crap. The commentators and the public are definitely more behind DW than VM at this point. Everyone's heard VM's story and it hasn't changed since Vancouver, platonic platonic blah blah blah. DW are a much more interesting team to root for now. They need to win against the evil Virtue-Moir! They've worked so hard! They don't do anything in their spare time because they're ALWAYS training unlike that other team that found time to film an entire (fake) documentary series.

      Delete
    3. I believe they do feel that way. They also felt that way about 2011 Worlds when they forfeited the opportunity to stop lying, shoved it all under the rug, womped up some more fake, and competed in Russia. They ought to have won, though. There's that.

      Delete
  8. So the Eurosports guys just compared D/W to ballet dancers, and Nickey Slater just willed the judges to shower them with 10s. Are they fucking kidding me?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYDyx5zUNVk

    Here is the is their contact info if you want to register your disgust:
    E: ukcomms@eurosport.com
    T: 0845 672 1010 / +44 208 8181 499
    @EurosportUKTV

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The comment about the 10s was the most idiotic thing I've ever heard from Nicky Slater.

      Delete
    2. Hey, they posted an article about DW's victory and someone actually called the judging out in the comments. Unfortunately they received a thumbs down, but it is good to see this in the comments section of an article.

      http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/figure-skating-davis-white-scoop-victory-tokyo-143003860--spt.html

      Delete
    3. Was the comment deleted?

      Delete
    4. It's still there:





      2users liked this commentRate a Thumb UpRate a Thumb Down2users disliked this comment
      Goen • 1 day 23 hours agoReport Abuse
      The judging leaves a lot to be desired. The American couple, Davis and White, are doing a lot of two-footed skating and simple toe-picking. They use their edges a lot less than other teams, and when they do use them they don't go very far. They have to dig in and take many steps to produce the speed they do--when they do not do these things they are slow. How on earth did they get such high scores in all categories of the program components?

      My personal favourites are the Italians, Cappellini and Lanotte, but these were not their best skates and I agree with their placement but not with the gap in scores. They finished over 26 points behind the Americans! While Capellini has some problems with her basic skating technique (though so does the American girl), she holds her body much better in lifts, and this team really dances. The difference between them and the Americans in this respect is obvious, yet the scores don't show it.

      The scoring is a farce!

      Delete
    5. Someone on FSU also linked to an Italian board, La Fenice, where a very knowledgeable person is doing breakdowns of the skating and lifting mechanics in comparing VM and DW:

      http://fenice.forumcommunity.net/?t=55168681

      I think it is very encouraging to see more and more people across message boards, blogs, and comments sections of blogs and articles dispelling the myth of this rivalry (or even scarier, of DW's superiority).

      Delete
  9. So just for kicks, I watched the FDs from the 8 teams in NHK. Two of the eight teams had only two twizzles in their twizzle pass; the team that finished last, and the team that finished first. Oh, and the team that finished last? They didn't hop into theirs, and their second twizzle didn't grind to a halt.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Apparently, apples and oranges.

    http://media2.newsobserver.com/smedia/2013/11/10/00/26/261-ZJhzr.AuSt.55.jpeg

    http://web.icenetwork.com/assets/images/2/4/0/63163240/cuts/DavisWhite_FD_b3tod6e0_j9uw4zac.jpg
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/564832_292505890860519_618652495_n.jpg

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/10484_294393027338472_932224368_n.jpg

    I hate this sport.
    I hate the fact that Meryl is becoming insanely skinny in order to make a lift work, just because she's unable to sustain a position. Hell, fuck this system.

    ReplyDelete
  11. CoP only pretends to hold ice dance to account, by setting down criteria. But if you don't define the standard, then you're full of shit, and CoP is full of shit. Those who put it together haven't done the real world work of figuring out what's hard and what isn't, and of establishing real criteria for lifts beyond how fast the male is rotating and if the lift is under time. Types of holds, how positions are held, how transitions are accomplished, and exits and entrances need to be defined as specifically as they are in pairs. Are the dancer's gravitational centers pasted or otherwise locked together, how much compensation is happening, how much dependance is happening?

    Ice dance is like the freaking mob. There are ice dance elements where the ISU likes to hide the money/hide the corruption, and lifts seem to be one of them. "Speed" is another.* It's down to the judges to decide how fast. "Edges" also seem to be one. Let's ignore if the edges are achieved through knee compression, if the edges actually WORK from the blade up (i.e., if those deep edges produce long, smooth curves/run of blade) instead of regressing because they're achieved from body weight down. It would be nice if CoP understood Centrifugal and centripetal force and where employing that in a lift makes it easier, not more challenging. Same with spins.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ice dance, IOW, is still show business. It cares more about what's "effective" (meaning visually) than what's actually difficult and demands superior skating skills.

      Delete
    2. Wonderful (sarcastic here) the judges are no better than the uninformed public. Which speaks volume as to how the judging has been coming along these past few years despite them spouting upholding the CoP as a means for future fair judging. Disgusted right now, I can tell you that much....

      Delete
    3. Honestly, after last season, I don't think I can be an ice dance fan anymore. Carmen was everything that was right -- exactly what a great Olympic Champion skating should be doing, and in a normal universe, the greatness would have been acknowledged. Instead, it was like we all entered some sort of bizarro universe where crap is being rewarded and skating such as Carmen is suddenly a liability. This is bullshit of an order of magnitude that I still can't comprehend. Some days I just ignore skating altogether, while other days I just want to punch everyone in the face.

      Delete
    4. It is remarkable that so many commentators are pretending these two teams are even close to being in the same league. I have shown performances from VM and DW to people who know very little to nothing about figure skating and even they can see that they are worlds apart. VM are capable of doing things that DW couldn't even dream of doing. I think people will look back on this 'rivalry' and laugh at the thought of the two being considered equals.

      Delete
    5. 9:29, I've also shown performances from VM and DW to people who know little to nothing about skating. Without fail, they've said that they thought VM were the better team. With the exception of two people who are very knowledgeable when it comes to ballroom dancing and used their training as reference, these people couldn't tell you exactly why VM was the better team, but they could still see it.

      This is sort of a bad analogy, but I think it's sort of one of those deals like the golden ratio; good form is pleasing to the human eye. These people may not know a thing about ice dance, but they still see the beauty in what VM do. As form follows function in skating, they pick up on some level what team is better.

      Delete
    6. @ 9:58

      Exactly. That's what it is. They can identify control and clean movement...proper form, smooth blades and effortless stroking please the eye.

      Delete
  12. Just finished watching CBC's coverage of the NHK. Kurt Browning basically summarized ice dance as a set of mini-theater performances, and a team's ability to capture your attention ("are you in the for the ride", were his exact words). Yup, that sums up what a joke this "sport" is, and the commentary supports it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, commentary like that enables scoring bullshit. It's infuriating how SKATERS with commenting gigs promote fallacy after fallacy.

      Delete
    2. I cringe whenever i listen to Kurt's commentary. He referred to the Reeds as "Rice and Rice"--such ignorance. I mean, seriously, what an idiot!

      And yes, he actually told the audience that their job is not to worry about GOE (without of course explaining that GOE is supposed to speak to the quality of an element, something viewers are capable of seeing if given the proper tools, like commentary that actually speaks to these things) and instead said that the audience's " job is to sit back and enjoy the show". Agree, OC, commentary like this enables this bullshit.

      Delete
    3. His "commentary" (if you can call it that) was a complete joke. He criticized the Shibs' Michael Jackson FD for the music being disjointed, but couldn't pinpoint anything specific in terms of the elements they executed. If he could get over his dislike of the music, he would notice that the Shibs had the most complex of all the dances--lots of difficult footwork in proper dance hold, brilliant twizzles, and lifts that didn't involve Alex hauling up Maia. But who cares about any of that? Its all about the music.

      Delete
    4. At the top of the show, he actually said something to the effect of "momentum being important in ice dance" as compared the other disciplines; that essentially, each other discipline can have a different order on the podium depending on competition on the day, but in ice dance, it is all about "momentum". So basically, never mind athletic performane on the day.

      Delete
    5. Should I assume that he fell all over himself praising G/P's Drama Club presentation of Hitchcock On Ice?

      Delete
    6. I liked GP's dance as well.

      Delete
    7. It sounds like the public is being told not to worry it's pretty head about scoring. Treat ice dance like a show, not a sport. Is that what Kurt is doing? Don't worry about GOE? Don't worry about legitimacy? And the performance on the day isn't as important as momentum? What an asshole.

      The shit the skating public puts up with. We ARE supposed to worry if the men aren't masculine enough, however.

      Delete
    8. "We ARE supposed to worry if the men aren't masculine enough, however."

      Yes, another example of his complete ignorance.
      And to further explain my previous comment, I believe the "Rice and Rice" comment was a 'joke' about the fact that the Reeds are of Japanese (or just plain Asian to people like Kurt) descent and were in 'traditional' clothing. Please take this idiot off the air.

      Delete
    9. During the men's competition, just before Adam Rippon's freeskate, Kurt was going on about how he has added power to his skating by bulking up in the gym, and then when Adam took his starting pose, Kurt said something to the effect of "...then he strikes a pose like that", implying it was effeminate. Seriously?

      Delete
    10. Yes, i remember that comment about Rippon. Yet another stupid and offensive thing to come out of Kurt's mouth.

      When people comment on how difficult that counter-movement lift is, i want them to tell me exactly what makes it so difficult. And saying "because of its difficult entry' which is basically what Kurt said, does not count. What is difficult about the entry? How is it difficult for the team as a whole?

      And the transitions need to be given more importance in commentary. Stop focusing on how the program makes you *feel* and tell me what makes the skating quality skating.



      Delete
    11. I was so disgusted with Kurt Browning's commentary of NHK, that I submitted a complaint the CBC; I encourage others to do the same through their website:

      http://www.cbc.ca/help/m/contact/programming_feedback

      Here's my complaint, feel free to copy it:

      I am writing to convey my disappointment in Kurt Browning’s commentary during the NHK event on November 9-10th. I found his commentary offensive and lacking in substance.
      To illustrate my points, just before Adam Rippon (of the US) started his free skate, Mr. Browning commented that he added more power to his skating by adding muscle strength, and then when he took his starting pose, Mr. Browning said something to the effect of “…then he takes a pose like that”, implying that it was effeminate, and therefore, not masculine or athletic enough. What does it matter what his opening looks like, and why imply it is not masculine enough? It was such an unnecessary and offensive comment.
      During the free dance competition, after Anna Cappellini and Luca Lanotte (of Italy) finished their freedance, there appeared to be a technical-mix-up; as they awaited their scores, the slo-mo highlights of another team, Cathy Reed and Chris Reed (of Japan) appeared instead of Cappellini/Lanotte’s. Mr. Browning referred to them as “Rice and Rice”, and they were dressed in “traditional clothing”. I don’t know if referring to them as “Rice and Rice” was an error or his weak attempt at cultural humour; either way, it was extremely distasteful and utterly inappropriate.
      Mr. Browning’s commentary during the entire ice dance event showed an utter lack of substance and competence. Off the top, he told the viewers that of all the figure skating disciplines, ice dance is the one that “…relies on momentum”, whereas the other disciplines depend on the performance on the day of competition. Does Mr. Browning want viewers to believe that ice dance is not an athletic contest, but rather, decided on who has “momentum” going into to the event?
      Mr. Browning’s commentary went from bad worse from that point onwards. He stated that ice dancers perform “mini-theatre” and we as viewers “…are supposed to go along with ride”, not worrying about things like Grade-of-Execution (GOE) and other aspects of the scoring of the sport.
      Is ice dancing not an Olympic sport, a sport that will be broadcast on CBC during the 2014 Sochi Olympics? Because according to Mr. Browning, he thinks it’s merely theatre, and we as viewers shouldn’t be bothered with understanding the scoring of it, we should only care about “how we feel” as we watch this “mini –theatre”.
      As a fan of the sport of figure skating, I am disgusted with Mr. Browning’s characterization of ice dance as mere “theatre”. In calling it theatre, he delegitimizes not only himself as a commentator, but the whole sport itself.
      His incompetence as a commentator further revealed itself when commentating during the actual performances. For example, after the Shibutanis’(of the US) performance, his main comment was that the music was disjointed, but made no reference to the actual SKATING that they executed. His concern was that their musical arrangement was disjointed, yet what relevance did that have on their elements and quality of execution? No mention of that at all.


      Delete
    12. Continued from 9:06 (character limit):

      During the performance of Meryl Davis and Charlie White (of the US), he mentioned that their first lift was very difficult, yet he failed to provide any detail as WHY this lift was difficult. When him and Brenda Irving chatted briefly why Davis’ and White’s final score was over 25 points clear of the silver medalists, they gave no real explanation, except that “they are so good”. What makes them “so good”? For example, of the eight teams that competed, they were one of two teams that completed only two twizzles in their twizzle pass (the other team was the team that finished in last). Why is there no explanation as to why Davis & White only perform two twizzles and it earns full marks, yet other teams are going to the trouble of completing three twizzles?
      Apparently, none of this critical, technical analysis of this so-called sport matters, because Mr. Browning has dismissed the entire discipline of ice dance as mere “theatre”.
      This kind of dumbed-down commentary is not only insulting to us, the viewers, but to the sport as well. I sincerely hope that Mr. Browning will not be commentating during the rest of the season, and certainly not during the Sochi Olympics. As a viewer and tax payer, I expect a higher standard of the CBC; please find someone competent and who won’t insult the intelligence of viewers with such drivel.

      Delete
    13. 9:06 and 9:07, great letter! thanks for posting!

      I am 12:59 and 3:02. I will definitely complain, especially about the offensive comments about Rippon and the Reeds, but really about everything you mentioned in your letter.

      Delete
    14. Seconded. Great letter 9:06/9:07, thanks for sharing, and thanks even more for sending it.

      Delete
    15. Thanks guys! I'm 9:06/9:07. I re-watched the Eurosport commentary again, and was so furious I emailed them; they can be reached at ukcomms@eurosport.com (I'm not on Twitter, but for those you who are, I encourage you to twee them @EurosportUKTV): here is my email, feel free to copy it:

      I am once again writing to convey my utter dismay of Mr. Nicky Slater’s and Chris Howorth’s commentary during the ice dance segment of the recent NHK figure skating competition. Once again, they showed little substance and much hyperbole in their commentary.

      Once again, Mr. Slater forgot that he was commentating an athletic event and instead gave fashion commentary when referring to Alex Shibutanis’ (of the US) costume, again citing his displeasure that it was too simple. It seemed like he spent more time commentating on that than their actual performance.

      Mr. Slater then had much to say about Elena Ilinykh’sand Nikita Katsalapov’s (of Russia) entrance after their names were called and how it put him off, but I fail to see the how that is anyhow relevant to the SKATING.

      Which brings me to the actual commentary of the skating…it was devoid of any substance or critical analysis, especially when it came to the two performances of Meryl Davis and Charlie White (of the US). In their short dance, Mr. Slater marveled at their “deep edges”, yet even with my untrained eye, I could observe much snow coming off their blades and I could hear scratchiness in their edges (which is saying a lot, considering I was watching their performance on a laptop). His assertion that “they were going 100 miles an hour” was a curious one, because during their midline step sequence, they looked very slow and laboured to me, and their edges did not seem to be generated from their blades and soft knees, but rather, driving down the on the blades in an unnatural manner. Their so-called “closed hold” was not closed hold at all, because their torsos were far apart, and they did not hit any matched, extended or elegant lines. Yet it was not explained to us, the viewers, why they were over 20 points clear of their nearest competitors, when their competitors where able to achieve speed from their blades while maintaining close dance hold.

      The commentary during their freedance was completely devoid of objective analysis and was frankly, embarrassing to listen to. Mr. Slater compared Davis/White to ballet dancers, going so far as to compare Charlie White to a “ballet guy” (an inelegant and incorrect choice of words; I think what he meant to say was “a male ballet dancer”). Clumsy choice of words aside, how can Davis/White be compared to ballet dancers, when their skating is filled with lifts that involve Charlie yanking, grabbing, and hurling his partner around with all the elegance of discus thrower, all the while rocking unsteadily on his blades? How can Meryl be compared to a ballerina, when she clearly cannot hold any elegant positions in their lifts, and can’t extend her free leg or point her toes?

      Delete
    16. Con't from 9:48pm, character limit:

      The last straw was at the end of the performance, when Mr. Slater practically begged the judges to award them with more 10s; his exact words were “Really judges, come on now, this is fabulous.”

      What is a fabulous about a performance filled with lunges, hops, skipping, two-footed skating and open holds to compensate for poor skating skills as previously explained? What is fabulous about a team, of the eight teams that competed, they were one of two teams that completed only two twizzles in their twizzle pass (the other team was the team that finished in last). The teams that finished 2-7 all completed three twizzles in their twizzle pass. Why can’t Mr. Slater or Mr. Howorth enlighten us as to why two twizzles, poorly executed at that, as they don’t cover much distance, grind to a halt on the second twizzle, don’t carry a sustained edge on the exit, and don’t vary in arm positions or phasing in the short or free dance are so fabulous above all other twizzles. What is fabulous about exiting their crude, inelegant lifts not on a running edge, but either stepping out or a knee slide?

      I confess, I’m not a judge, but as an above-average casual observer of the sport, even I can see that their skating leaves is far from fabulous and leaves much to be desired. Surely, as a former ice dancer himself, Mr. Slater can offer up more meaningful and critical commentary than what he offered here.

      Really, Mr. Slater and Mr. Howorth, come on now, you can do better than this. Stop insulting the intelligence of viewers with such ridiculous, non-specific and breathless commentary that diminishes your credibility as commentators and makes a mockery of the sport of ice dance. This is not a fashion show or theatrical performance; this is an athletic contest, which is supposed to compare skating skills, technical elements and the quality of their execution. Give it the respect it deserves by actually commentating and critically comparing the skaters on the basis of their SKATING.

      I sincerely hope we are not treated to more of this non-commentary for the remainder of the season, especially as we head into the Sochi Olympics.

      Delete
    17. You know, I think letters like yours make a difference because I don't think figure skating commentators get a lot of feedback. Yours is very specific and hard to refute. A lot of crap has been invented by figure skating to explain why the audience went away, but I think treating the audience like idiots is right up there. Dick Button may not have been all that in depth, but he was no fool and didn't treat people like fools. You stick screaming Scott Hamilton in the chair, you have self-adoring Sandra Bezic in there for years and years, you shove popular old school figure skaters in the chair who do nothing but treat the listening public like idiots and spread misinformation, this is what you get. It's self-fulfilling. There's a little bit of push back but there needs to be a ton more. The sport should be glad fans care enough to push back, but possibly not. Pushing back would mean it's held to account and it seems to me they like their club, and would prefer it if they could attract fans with the shiny and the soap opera. The latter would confirm their low opinion of fans and enable them to continue the racket.

      oc

      Delete
    18. Thanks OC - I will continue to make my voice heard. I haven't gotten a response to either of my complaints, and I don't expect to, but I'm not going to sit around and watch the sport that I love (and once participated in) be hijacked by a bunch of self-serving buffoons content to spread their own brand of ignorance. I will be damned if a hack team like D/W "win" in Sochi and all these same idiots are fawning themselves in the commentary box.

      Delete
  13. Yes, I quite understand it's the most creative program in a decade. It's harder to find those of us who aren't into tricks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sorry, that belonged in the above discussion thread.

      Delete
    2. Which program?

      Delete
    3. I think GP's. I actually think it's a decent program and cleverly put together with a combination of real skating - to the degree Piper has developed - and then tricks to bridge the gap. They did seem to slow down tremendously whenever they worked in other than a straight line.

      I may be an outlier here but I felt that they put in real skating wherever it was possible, and I appreciate that, even if it's not possible throughout (Paul/Islam, for instance, skate their whole program) due to Piper's still-existing limitations. I do acknowledge they've done a lot of work and it shows, especially compared to the non-skating abomination that was "Wild Spirits".

      Delete
  14. DW might not be able to hit all their key points in the SD, but their fans in the NHK thread on the paid section of FSU are hitting all of the DW propaganda key points:

    “D/W have peaked at Worlds every year of their senior career, specifically in the FD. I don't expect this year to be any different.”
    Translation: The judges always give them their highest score at worlds.

    “D/W did peak at Worlds in 2011-2012. Their Worlds performance of Die Fledermaus was the best of the entire season and one of the best skates of their career. The audience was going crazy.”
    No comment.

    “Its Olympic season and its special. D/W have been wanting to skate for Shez for years and they have saved it for this season. It means a lot to them, plus they have made it clear that gold is their goal, no bones about it. Of course they are going to give it everything from beginning to end.”
    This is literally the icenetwork article.

    “Of course the scores are going to drop from SA to NHK. SA was their HOME event, and skaters always get better scores at home. V&M will likely get lower scores in France, so it's not really a good barometer of how things are going to go. And can you HONESTLY say that you believe that Davis and White are the worst in the top ten in terms of unison, toe point, extension, and posture?”
    Uh, yes?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And can you HONESTLY say that you believe that Davis and White are the BEST in the world in terms of unison, toe point, extension, and posture? Because that is what the judges are saying with their scores. This is what i would like to ask the author of the last quote you posted.

      If you criticize DW's skating or say they are overscored a number of people take that to mean you are saying DW are just plain awful, when that is not necessarily the case. I acknowledge their talent and am actually a fan of them, but being a fan doesn't mean i have to ignore their faults or agree with every score or title they are given. I feel like we can discuss the faults of other skaters without all the chaos that ensues when we attempt to do so with DW. I don't get it?

      Delete
    2. It's crazy. As soon as you question anything it's all MERYL AND CHARLIE HAVE WORKED SO HARD THEY WANT THIS SO MUCH AND YOU WON'T GIVE THEM ANY CREDIT AND EVEN WE ADMIT TESSA AND SCOTT CAN SKATE.

      Some people are harsh on DW, but it's deserved, and they are the freaking reigning World champions so how come they're soooo scared to be engaged in a technical conversation?

      Delete
    3. ""“Of course the scores are going to drop from SA to NHK. SA was their HOME event, and skaters always get better scores at home. V&M will likely get lower scores in France, so it's not really a good barometer of how things are going to go.""

      These people might want to go back and take a look at the total scores DW have received for every GP event they've competed in since the start of their senior career. The only seasons aside from this one that their total score didn't increase at their second event were 2008 and 2010. 2008 was the year Charlie had multiple falls in the OD at CoR and 2010 they both fell in the FD at Skate America. So, this season marks the first season where their scores decreased at their second event without multiple falls being involved. They were "clean" at NHK.

      Of the 5 seasons where they have had an increase in score, 4 of those seasons it was at least a couple of points increase, if not a lot of points. In 2009, they only improved by 0.87 points from 201.10 at CoR to 201.97 at NHK.

      Delete
    4. I actually like DW too but I find it hard to read through their thread because of stuff like this:

      "Wow guys, why did I do that? I ventured out of this little thread, in hopes of finding more things about Dai and I ran into some funny things, like Trankov's pants thread, but then I ran into some very scary things.

      Why do some V/M ubers think that there aren't valid criticisms of V/M, because we don't spend all day making videos and taking screen shots. I have zero desire to tear down V/M. I think overall they're a great team. I could, if I wanted to spend my time in a very negative space, make photo/video evidence of all the sloppy pieces of Carmen through the 2012-2013 year, but I don't want to. It doesn't change that they exist, I'm just not super aggressive about it. I wasn't happy about some things in 2012, but again, I'm not super aggressive about it.

      Reading the thread I landed on, almost made me feel a little crazy about not being on top of all the reasons I disliked a skate by V/M...until I reminded myself that I don't love D/W because I dislike V/M. In fact I don't dislike V/M (skating wise) .
      I then chose not to comment, cause why stoop, and I vow to never enter a mixed thread or predominately V/M thread ever again. You all will just have to forgive me if I comment or speculate on V/M here, because I refuse to do so elsewhere.

      Now I need tea, because I think my stomach actually hurts from all the vitriol. It's stressful.
      I don't want to start a really long fan war tangent, I had to share because I'm genuinely disturbed...by the internet. I mean this is supposed to be a fun happy place where we talk about skating right? I guess I just want that confirmation."

      Where was the vitriol on the part of the VM ubers? Is asking for examples or posting them considered to be vitriolic?

      and the same person also posted that Gracie Gold looked like "a self-centered douch-ey idiot" for wearing a tiara (which was an odd fashion choice but is it really that upsetting?)
      I wonder if these people ever read their own posts. I mean, they completely lack self-awareness.

      Why is it so wrong to talk technique?

      Delete
    5. What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that this isn't about "tearing down" DW. It is about showing how the scores don't match up to what is happening on the ice. That IS "talk[ing] about skating". Would they rather people make vague statements about the skating and simply say DW don't deserve their scores? Well, I guess some would because in that case DW's flaws wouldn't really get discussed and they could easily dismiss those claims. But if someone is going to say that someone has flawed technique and doesn't deserve their scores, they should explain exactly why and that is what a lot of people in that thread are doing. People can disagree with what they are saying, but why dismiss it as fans being "super aggressive"?

      I watch a lot of other sports and this kind of discussion is expected. Strange that it is so different in figure skating.

      Delete
    6. @ 1:06
      Making vague and general statements is exactly what many DW ubers have done regarding VM. They are full of criticisms they don't back up, such as saying they've regressed, they skate on flats, Tessa's edges aren't as good as in 2010 (tapdancer said that one), etc. Lots of put-downs, but of course with no evidence. What is infuriating is when those things get repeated as if they're true, simply because some ignorant hater posted it on FSU or GoldenSkate.

      It must be galling that the fans of the team they dislike so much are the ones analyzing and showing visual proof that not only are all their criticisms of VM a pack of lies, DW are really not that great after all.

      Delete
    7. "Reading the thread I landed on, almost made me feel a little crazy about not being on top of all the reasons I disliked a skate by V/M"

      This poster is, unsurprisingly, making this out to be an uber attack on DW. The discussion this person is objecting to is not about "dislik[ing] a skate" by DW. The posts with the examples and analysis that is upsetting many of the DW ubers quote the actual rules and address how those rules are not being met in a way that warrants the scores DW are receiving. I don't believe any of those posts made any mention of personal dislike.

      That seems to be one of the favourite lines among some ubers: "it's just a matter of preference". No, it's not. These are clear differences in the skating quality.

      Delete
  15. And some of those people only "admit Tessa and Scott can skate" as a way to establish their credibility before undercutting their skating or work ethic. Saying that Tessa was "stepping all over the ice on flats" in Funny Face or that they have either stagnated since entering the senior scene or regressed since then or since 2010 (someone re-posted these posts from the DW thread in the bookie thread). I would like someone to show me a video of Tessa "stepping all over the ice on flats" in Funny Face (the reason given was to compensate for her shins). There is nothing wrong with saying that, but if you are going to make that claim it would be nice to show some evidence of it (and none was giving in the post shown in the bookie thread).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yeah, I wanna see that too. These are people who don't know what they're seeing when they see skating. They look at bodies and not at blades. There was a comment here over a year ago where someone scoffed that Marina and DW made fun of Virtue and Moir 'walking on ice" into their twizzles. Oh gee, turns out they skated/glided on their blades but carried their upper bodies and used their arms in the style of someone walking. Perhaps this person got the idea VM "walked" because when DW imitated them THEY walked, unable to accomplish both skating and the carriage that suggested walking - WHILE skating.

      Delete
    2. "Yeah, I wanna see that too."

      Stop bullying people into discussing the actual skating! That stuff is only for people with too much time on their hands, remember?

      These people can just post fallacies like this, planting the idea in people's heads that VM were "just standing around" or "stepping all over the ice on flats" and of course not have to support those observations with actual video.

      And yes, if they look at the video and think that is indeed what they were doing, then they really don't know what actual skating looks like. I guess we could say, then that T&D, K&P, and the other ice dance greats (among which VM have cemented their place) "stepped all over the ice on flats" when they attempted programs more heavily rooted in ballroom.

      Delete
  16. "and God help us, Gilles & Poirier. Gilles still needs to get over her skates more - her inconsistency in getting herself over her skates creates instability in things like twizzles, but to give her credit, she skated this program with him - he didn't drag her and she didn't run on her toe picks. The program wasn't the most complex compared to others skating at their level, but it was well put together, worked with the music, and treated Piper as legit instead of a problem the choreography needed to solve - and the judges didn't pretend the pcs were better than they were. That's reserved for DW."

    I though GP's SD was fine for what it was, but I was less than impressed by their FD. It's still an exercise in disguising what Piper can't do. It's a different style and theatrics laid over the top of their usual.

    Another "God Help Us" that I will give them credit for is ditching the hop and going for a three set twizzle pass that are actually in the character of the dance and actually manage to travel down the ice.

    Piper still has a long, long, long way to go technically, but to give credit where it's due, you can tell she has worked on her skating skills in the off season. She's getting into the ice more. I thought her blade run was a bit better, and maybe some more power (although maybe not sustained through the whole program). She at least seems to be trying to make some real improvements. It's a lot more than I can say for DW.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you look at the exit from the second twizzle set in the fd, they do quite a nice sustained edge in unison (clear curve) before commencing the third set. I don't completely agree it's an exercise in disguising what Piper can't do. I think it's ambitious, and contains more than she can do, but I think it's really packaged to show where she's grown and then it finesses the rest to make it appear as if she's grown even more than she has and to make it seem as if she skates the entire program at her "new" level of ability. I also appreciate that the work she's put in has impacted her performance persona, which has matured. She's no longer turning on the pageant demeanor. She actually seems focused on skating.

      But I don't think the agenda of the program is to disguise what she can't do, but try to show what she can now, which still leaves her a considerable distance to travel.

      Delete
    2. Also in this link to the G/P fd:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSHMDIFL1so

      From :56 to 1:44 and beyond (I stopped watching mid-step sequence) is pretty edge centered, hold-centered, and multidirectional. Into and out of each move (the spin and the lift) is on an edge and then continues bladework. The drawback is, when they're not stroking or moving in a straight line, they're slow. It's definitely night and day from their approach last season though, which is surprising. I wonder if it's filtered down to the lower ranked teams that DW style b.s. is not going to carry them anywhere, and the scores for it begin and end with only DW.

      oc

      Delete
    3. I think I'm going to have to go back and rewatch GP's FD. There is no way that it should outscore what PI are doing (provided everyone skates without having a meltdown), and I don't see it as the choreographic masterpiece some people are crowing about it being. That said, maybe I need to take another look at it.

      The other night, I spent some time thinking about GP's improvements from last season. Even though GP still have a lot of work to do, it is apparent that they are trying to improve. Last year, it seemed like GP were going to get the DW treatment and would be able to just get away with faking it. Maybe it is filtering down that DW-style bs only works with DW, but I also wonder if it has to do with actually wanting to get better and taking pride in what they put out on the ice. I think almost all of the elite level ice dance teams take their skating seriously in that they want to improve in what they're doing and they want to put something out on the ice that they can be proud of. DW seem to be more focused on winning though. They don't seem to be interested in making actual improvements to their skating. They don't seem to care about what they're putting out on the ice, because, hey, if the faking it gets it done, who cares. DW is a team that has taken a lot of short cuts over the years.

      To turn this back to VM and DW. Do VM like to win? Of course. It's one of those "is the Pope Catholic" things. But they love to skate and dance and they care tremendously about what they're doing out there on the ice. They're not going to be anything less than who they are (as ice dancers) out there on the ice. DW, on the other hand, only care about winning. It's their alpha and their omega. If they truly cared about the skating part of things, they would have put the time in to trying to improve for real instead of just faking it.

      Delete
    4. "I think I'm going to have to go back and rewatch GP's FD. There is no way that it should outscore what PI are doing (provided everyone skates without having a meltdown), and I don't see it as the choreographic masterpiece some people are crowing about it being. That said, maybe I need to take another look at it."

      It's not a masterpiece because these aren't the skaters, but it's really strong choreography and is perfectly in tune, in performance, choreography, with the music (and with what we're presumed to know about the music - that it's Hitchcock). As much as Carol Lane, as a personality, can give me the mehs, I think she's a better choreographer for Paul Poirier (can't really say that about her other choreography) than Dean. In my eyes, anyway. I liked the 2010 season choreo a whole lot better than 2010-2011, and I haven't liked anything Dean did for C&P or G&P. The programs this season are stronger and lo, Lane did them. Who knew.

      They're not P/I. P/I are multidirectional by default. They're continually changing direction, changing hold, they do a ton of closed hold. They skate their entire program. They also have good speed, which is something they've built during their partnership. Everything is detailed and intricate. They finish their lines, their unison is wonderful, they skate very close together (which is another thing G&P haven't quite mastered - even in closed hold there's considerable torso space and space between their respective skates, BUT, the overall impact is of them getting as close as they can get, versus faking getting close while trying to keep as much of a distance as they can). They're working in the right direction, IOW.

      But, I think it's unfair to describe G/P's program as tricks and posing. At every element and choreographic move, they use an edge. It makes a point, in particular, to show her using an edge, and not just "here's my edge - now can I get on two feet!" a la DW. She uses it in the sequence leading to a move or element, and she continues to use it exiting from the move or element. They do work in hold as much as possible, they do change direction as much as possible, they're using bladework, and I do like the program a lot.

      IOW, this fd is a good faith showcase for really doing it. What is sacrificed is the apparent (but actually sleight-of-hand faked) speed and drive in Wild Spirits (which was a hot, bullshit, running, lifting, dragging, tricked-out, non-skating mess). When G/P aren't stroking or moving in a straight line, it's SLOOOOOWWWW. Very very. But, relatively steady. I do respect this direction. But it does make me wonder - what were they told?

      Delete
  17. Seriously, Kurt Browning referred to the Reeds as "Rice and rice?" That's not only ignorant, I would consider that racist. He owes them, the Japanese skating federation, and the viewers an apology. (And one to Adam Rippon as well) A racist, and homophobic?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Kurt has always displayed a homophobic streak. His autobiography sheds light on his "macho-ness".

      The commentary is so depressing across the board...

      Delete
    2. Yes, it is racist. I couldn't believe my ears. He is also the same person who referred to Rohene Ward as "gangsta" or something to that effect in an interview about his role as a commentator for US nationals. I can't find the article now but i distinctly remember him saying that.
      And he has long thought of himself as an authority on masculinity. Idiot.

      Delete
    3. I've never liked him. There's a lot of charm and friendliness but a soul sucking neediness underneath it and an exhausting quest for attention behind it, and I don't care how famous he is, he's heard 'dial it down' before at some point and simply will not. That sort of life of the party persona can be oppressive if the person won't hear other people, and Kurt, IMO, isn't interested in hearing opinions other than his own, nor tolerate dissent from what he thinks (he cuts that off in the comment booth). That's diva material.

      Delete
    4. I have sometimes wondered if some of his underlying demeanor as well as some (all?) of his skating commentary has been colored by the fact that he was never able to bring home the OGM or an Olympic medal of any color. Kurt went into two consecutive Olympic games as reigning world champion and a favorite (if not the favorite) for the OGM. He blew it both times. Then, VM manage to win it on the first try without having won worlds first. Could there be some jealousy there?

      Delete
    5. It's not just his commentary (or lackthereof) in the ice dance, its his commentary in general that's appalling. I distinctly remember last year when Yazuru Hanhyu was skating his freeskate, and he said he hated the music; to which Tracy Wilson, who is one of Hanyu's coaches (along with Brian Orser) said "I love it!". His response? "Really?". Ya, Kurt, really?

      Delete
    6. What's really obnoxious is the networks that hire these asses to comment on figure skating. I look upon Johnny Weir's hiring as a step in the right direction and long long long overdue, and I also suspect that NBC doesn't even know Weir's really good at it .

      Delete
    7. Speaking of commentators, I find this hilarious.

      http://youtu.be/KXT04YRebr0?t=11m48s

      Yes, it was a whole year ago, at this very event, in the sacred twizzles no less. But how can anyone commentating possibly remember that far back?!? It really puzzles me why CBC loves D/W so much. Tracy at least has the job at NBC, plus you can tell when she's faking it.

      Delete
    8. Because CBC is in on the trade -- gold for D/W means gold for Patrick Chan -- or so Canada thinks. There's a sucker born every minute.

      Delete
  18. where is the davis white NHK free dance? cant find on youtube

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Here it is...get ready to hear a whole lot of shrill BS from the Eurosport guys:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYDyx5zUNVk

      Delete
  19. OC- What are you thoughts on the Gracie Gold tweet about Mao Asada? http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-gracie-gold-apologizes-tweet-20131111,0,1009609.story

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My thoughts are that I don't care if you grow up in a rink, there's no excuse for that. "I didn't know" "Didn't intend", blah blah - a non-ignorant person doesn't come out with that in the first place. "I love Mao Asada!" is like saying "Some of my best friends are black!" it's not about who are your best friends or who you like as individuals. Some of this stuff, IMO, people shouldn't need to be TAUGHT. It's intuitive, at the least.

      Delete
    2. Well said, indeed, OC. (from Anon. at 11/12 5:59 a.m.)

      Delete
    3. How did she 'not intend it that way'? I mean, the joke itself was about the mispronunciation of English sounds by a Japanese-speaking person. I mean, how in this case can she pretend she 'didn't mean it that way'? That is EXACTLY how she meant it. She is just sorry that she got called out on it.

      also, that is not a real apology. A real apology would be accepting responsibility for what she did. She just made excuses for it.

      Delete
    4. I was saddened to read the posts of people who claimed that the comment could be construed as racist mocking. It IS racist mocking, plain and simple. It may not have come from a place of hatred in Gracie's mind, but that doesn't change the fact of what the comment IS - meant to mock/demean an entire racial/ethnic group based on the inability to utilize English pronunciation of English words.

      She should know better. If she doesn't, it's because she's been sheltered and the beneficiary of being white in America, which remains seen as the societal "norm." None of which makes her comment excusable or gives her a pass.

      If she takes some heat for it, good. She ought to.

      Delete
    5. See, the societal norm thing - how the hell is it a societal norm? How does someone reach eighteen, unless they're raised proactively to be ignorant, not understand you don't do what Gracie Gold did? And how do people believe someone of that age has any business not knowing any better? It's like ignorance has become a privilege. That's ridiculous.

      oc

      Delete
    6. What I mean is, "mistakes" like that one are advertising "I am so privileged, the world I occupy is so protected that I can say shit like this all the time and nobody is going to call me out! It's only when I'm stupid enough to put it on social media that people "out there" set me straight."

      It's like freaking backdoor racism. I'm so entitled nobody's ever called me on anything! It's not my fault! I'm protected and sheltered!

      Jesus.

      oc

      Delete
    7. It's a societal norm because the privilege is institutionalized and always has been. When it's called out, people find ways to rationalize it. Look at today's "hipster racism" or the "nobody can say anything anymore because the PC police will jump on it and blow it out of proportion!" crowd, or the way it's apparently acceptable to declare people who point out the continued existence of institutionalized racism are themselves racists for doing so.

      Delete
    8. "It's like freaking backdoor racism. I'm so entitled nobody's ever called me on anything! It's not my fault! I'm protected and sheltered!"

      Right. I notice a lot of people made that kind of excuse for her as well.

      The fact remains, it doesn't matter why she wrote it or why people think she did. She wrote it, period. The statement itself is racist. There's no getting around it by arguing that perhaps she didn't know any better given where she comes from or what she knows.

      IF that is in fact the case - that she didn't know any better - there's the root of the problem. WHY would she not know better? Because somehow, she's been taught or has been socialized to believe it's okay to say something like that as a joke. But that's not acceptable as an excuse. Rather, it's a damning reality that needs to be recognized for what it is.

      Delete
    9. Don't even get me started on hipster racism. What is that but a proactive refusal to acknowledge limits. What do you mean I don't get to say that and someone else can?

      It's spoiled bitchness, that's what hipster racism is - narcissism and ego. Don't tell me no!

      Or else it's a lot of meta commentary on how out of touch they are. Yeah, let's play with how I can so NOT relate, I fuck up in hilarious ways! (On HBO's "Girls" for example.)

      Oh it's a laugh riot. It's material! This whole thing is so removed from my world I blunder and it's just so embarrassing!

      It's fodder.

      Similarly, it recalls when singer John Mayer wished in an interview he were cool enough and had enough "cred" to merit a "hood pass". A hood pass is bestowed upon a white person considered cool enough to get away with saying the n word (I don't know who these people are. I only know people who've bestowed the pass upon themselves, such as Quentin Tarantino). Because that's what this is about. A yardstick for how cool you are. How much cred you've got. For white people. It's about you.

      But circling back, I've seen this kind of mistake from others, and as said in this comments section, such as from Julianne Hough. It's about flaunting how much you just can't relate, how nothing in your life has exposed you to this stuff, so don't blame you. "I've lived in a magic circle all my life! I have no context!" It's a backdoor brag. It's disgusting.

      oc

      Delete
    10. @6:28

      Yes, the discourse of political correctness. That is one of my favourites! So the issue is the people getting offended at the comment and not the person making the comment or the comment itself. And this is basically what Gracie did with her 'I didn't mean to offend anyone' comment.

      Delete
    11. Yep. It shifts the issue onto those offended, and away from the person who caused offense. It's "oh my, I didn't realize you people were that sort! I miscalculated! I would never intentionally offend people so quick to take offense as you guys!"

      No, Gracie. You were wrong. You were called out. The problem isn't that people were offended. The problem is you were wrong.

      Delete
    12. well, the strategy seems to be working on many people at GS. Apparently Gracie is the victim of people who are overly sensitive and self-righteous. One person admitted the comment was offensive (can't remember if they actually called it out as racist) but their real concern was how this would hurt Gracie's image and career. I considered signing up for an account there just to respond to these people, but i doubt they will listen. They are actually attacking anyone who takes issue with what Gracie said.
      Unbelievable idiocy.

      Delete
  20. okay, I cant stand davis white. I think their FDs in past were a threat. but this year the lifts are gross. she is always with bended knee, he's squatting for his life and she's all of ten pounds, and he just keeps flinging her and rolling over his back. how are they not being called out for copying VM lift and not even doing it better? she has to somersault into a fetal position and then put her legs up. Tessa goes straignt up with one hand? wtf. I will say that even tho VM circular steps are way harder than davis white, davis white looks faster and cleaner in circular stip. probably bc they never face each other for more than a millisecond.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I can't argue with your description of the lifts. She's not even somersaulting, she bends over and grabs around his trunk and he bends over and grabs around hers, she curls up in a ball until she's upside down. At this sd's first outing she stuck her hand out after she got her balance, but now she doesn't and he sticks his hand out. Then he just tips her over his back while she hangs on.

      There are so many redundant points of physical connection and security that don't just reinforce their security, but also the most basic of her positions.

      I don't think Davis & White look faster and cleaner - I don't think anyone can look faster than VM at this stage. Davis White's steps are short - the actual steps, lobes, are short.

      In the first lift he does swing her up, put himself under her, she smacks down on his arm, shoulder and then he pins her leg and she's in that fireman's carry. When it's time for her transition he presses down on that leg.

      The comment booth announces this is difficult but never once explains the skating-related difficulty of standing planted on two feet with your arms slung down like a primate's, dragging your partner along the ice while she's in a bastardized version of shoot the duck with her ass half an inch from the ice, and then swing her up. It may be difficult - it may not be every skater with the cardiovascular fitness and necessary weight differential to perform that entrance, but it has nothing to do with their skating skills or their ice dance skills. It probably took some fitness and coordination for Shabalin to swing Domnina around by the bungee cords.

      The lifts, naturally, are where DW are currently outpointing VM in GOE. That is, of course, because DW's are primitive and VM's are extraordinary, and so the scores are trying to compensate. Or something.

      Delete
    2. The exit of the last lift of their FD was performed on this past week's Battle of the Blades (by Amanda Evora and her partner). So if a hockey-player turned quasi-figured skater can do it, and his partner can maintain a running edge upon exit, it can't be THAT hard - certainly not OGM worthy.

      Delete
  21. It is interesting that the reaction to the photos and videos by several of the DW ubers (in both the bookie thread and their own) has been to call it vitriol and to say that obviously these fans can't know more than the judges and tech callers and are silly to think that they could...so I guess we should just accept every result? In fairness, one uber admitted that the judges sometimes make mistakes but said that enough judges have rewarded DW that they must be right. Um, the judges are influenced by each other (they talk to each other and they observe trends in the marking) and can be disciplined for giving scores that do not fall in line with the others. That is how you can get a wrong result over a sustained amount of time.

    But let's just ignore this and pretend that anyone who challenges a call, score, or result, even though they do so with clear descriptions and videos, is just some delusional know-it-all. I mean, can they honestly tall me that the edge shown for the second key point is a clear forward outside edge? Or that Meryl's other foot did not touch the ice in the first key point? Of course not, because we can SEE those things. So instead let's just ignore the issue and get everyone to do the same by repeating (again, and again, and again) that the people bringing these things to everyone's attention aren't worth listening to.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It is telling that they can only talk around the issues and attack the posters who actually go into specifics.

      Some are claiming that they could post awkward photos of VM but they won't because they are too good for that. Please. The funny thing is i would agree that an awkward photo isn't representative of the element or the skating as a whole. but with DW the awkwardness comes from real issues with what they are doing with their bodies, issues that are evident in a series of photos and in real time. You won't find such photos of VM because they don't exist. Even when the Carmen lifts were in their development phase, they never looked as bad as DW's lifts at their best. VM simply don't have the same issues in form and lifting technique

      Delete
  22. Just when you thought that the FSU ubers couldn't be more ridiculous, the Goldenshit, er, Goldenskate, ubers are even more ridiculous; this Blackswanphoto poster takes the cake:

    A fall on the finnstep, probably not. But if D/W can go clean in the short dance and get their 5-10 point lead, should be enough of a cushion for a fall with the amount of difficulty in their freedance. Actually their freedance I think is too risky/difficult. They should water it down technically a bit to give themselves a safety margin. I was looking at the footstep sequence at the end of the program, it is way to high risk. Skating that close together that fast, they are just asking to fall. They can do something much less risky and probably still get the level.

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?42524-Free-Dance-2013-NHK-Trophy&p=789096&viewfull=1#post789096

    I must also congratulate the wonderful dance judges and technical callers at NHK, COC and Finlandia. Their integrity, vision and courage to mark the performances as an actual sport and what they actually see on the ice, shows just a little hope that the sport may come back to it's golden age someday. Now if the rest of the judges can follow their lead we are in for a great season.

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?42524-Free-Dance-2013-NHK-Trophy&p=789115&viewfull=1#post789115

    If the judging is clean and their are no home court advantages and everyone skates perfect.. The standings should be

    1. Davis/White >>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Cappellini/Lanotte>>> 3. One of numerous other teams

    I am not basing this on past performances nor future, only from each couples respective short dance performance and score this season OFF home ice, where the judges would not feel any pressure to sway things one way or another. This could always change based on upcoming competitions, but so far this season from my data this would be the standings. Third place had too many couples to consider for their to be one clear cut favorite.

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?42524-Free-Dance-2013-NHK-Trophy&p=789123&viewfull=1#post789123

    What a fucking idiot.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I hate how the DW ubers have now co-opted our talk of technique just like they have everything else. Someone in the DW thread at FSU said "This is a sport, whether some people accept it or not." I swear, with them it's like up is down, blue is red, war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength (especially).

      I hope OC doesn't mind the fan wars/board dragging. It's just that it so perfectly epitomized the groupthink that's going on with the judges and the skating establishment... group ignorance. They can't fucking skate and it's clear as day!

      Delete
    2. *I'm* getting tired of the board dragging -- especially the poster who keeps having to post about Goldenskate. I don't read that board for a reason, and I'm tired to having its stupid posts over here.

      Delete
    3. I think in some ways venting about it encourages, enables people to go to those forums and push back. I don't think the blog is responsible for push back, but if being able to vent to a degree (and really, it's my call where the line is between venting/expressing and pure acting out, and I just have to gut check it) here helps, then it's fine with me.

      Fan wars are fan wars, for sure. Figure skating boards are full of them. But still, people in the sport subscribe to these boards. WHY the hell they do when these boards are full of ignorance, who knows, but it doesn't reflect well on the sport, and in fact, validates some of the worst suspicions about the sport. However, if public opinion is moderated there by those in the sport, then I think it's a good idea if those who speak up get encouragement to speak up and push back. If someone comes here and is like Jesus, this is what goldenskate says, and by being able to say it, goes back and argues back there, I have no problem with it. It's frustrating, yes. But this is the level of discourse. If figure skating were a real sport then it would be easy to just tune out and disregard what fans do and say, and not bring it over here. But it's not, and some of the stuff said by fans there is repeated in the comment booth. I don't think (unlike some fan boards that focus on different subjects than figure skating) - ignoring the idiots who post stupidities about skating is necessarily the answer.

      oc

      Delete
  23. I read the bookie thread at FSU and the people giving examples weren't being rude or aggressive about it. They only got annoyed when tapdancer and mia joy started to insult people for providing examples and explanations. The ones being aggressive were the DW ubers.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The same thing happened with the "best female ice dancer of the 2012/2013 season" thread. Tessa won by a landslide and many people gave very specific reasons for choosing Tessa, ones that actually made sense in skating terms, so some of the DW ubers had to dismiss the poll as just an attempt to prop up VM by tearing down DW. Meanwhile, no one gave reasons for choosing Meryl that were rooted in skating and dance technique; many instead tried to make the focus of the poll how horrible VM fans are. This seems to be a pattern...

      Delete
  24. OC, i have wondered for a while and would like get your perspective about if Meryl and Charlie get some kind of special or "sympathy" treatment because of her not being able to see properly out of her right eye and having depth perception/dyslexia related issues.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2013/03/13/meryl-davis-charlie-white-usa-best-shot-gold/1985667/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. boo hoo cry me a river. dyslexia is practically nothing like nearly everyone has dyslexia anyway. its so annoying how they always paint themselves as the hard working underprivileged underdogs when they are privilege as fuck. this is why i find them so irritating - they never acknowledge their privilege.

      Delete
    2. @10:44

      What an ignorant response. Do you know anything about dyslexia? It poses serious challenges to those who have it. Maybe you need to acknowledge your own privilege.

      Delete
    3. @10:44, if Tessa Virtue had depth perception/dyslexia issues and publicized it, something tells me you would be the first to praise her bravery, so cut the "boo hoo cry me a river," shit. You spend plenty of time over here crying rivers about every slight uttered about V/M by D/W fans.

      That being said, I *did* think the timing of that article was suspect, given that it dropped right before Worlds. I agree with OC's comment below.

      Delete
    4. blah blah blah meryl's dyslexia doesnt effect her skating on ice why should we care about it? i know plenty of people with learning disorders and they are normal human beings who are fully capable of going on with their everyday lives. stop pitying them its condescending and stop acting like dyslexia confines you to a wheelchair or something.

      Delete
    5. The article was specifically focused on her depth-perception problems, not on her reading comprehension. The latter of which is something you apparently lack.

      I see all you can do in response to being called out is clumsily claim I or others are "pitying" Meryl Davis. Try again.

      Delete
    6. @6:51

      I am assuming you are also 10:44
      I would say that depth perception issues (which are part of her dyslexia) affect her skating. And saying that dyslexia is challenging to live with is not the same as saying someone is not 'normal'. After all, what is normal? But society has particular norms and is set up in a way that makes it difficult to live with a disability. I don't know why you feel the need to compare disabilities or dismiss certain ones.

      Delete
  25. I don't know why that was publicized, especially in the craven way it was done "She didn't want anyone to know but why not publicize it immediately before Worlds!" says her mother about her reticent daughter. If she gets sympathy for that it's a case of looking for more reasons to elevate D/W because sympathy doesn't generally get a skater held up. There are gimpy skaters out there, older skaters out there, one last shot at glory skaters and skaters with plenty of challenges and for the most part there's not much sympathy shown in the scoring.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Fantastic....Judy Blumberg is the tech specialist at TEB this weekend:

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra2013/SEG007OF.HTM

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. why is judy blumberg still allowed to be a tech specialist? i had a dream last night that v/m got 170 at teb (cause one judge gave them like 5.00 PCS). looks like thats going to be a reality.

      Delete
    2. 6:44
      I prefer to wait for the actual competition. Not to offend you, but what do anyone's dreams have to do with it? A dream is a dream. It's not reality. Maybe *after* the results are in you can tell us all about how they measured up to a dream. But before.... Please.

      Delete