Thursday, June 26, 2014

It's not just the lifts that are upside down

Thanks to the comments section participant below who pointed us towards this tumblr, some of whose work I'm reposting here. I am not thrilled about re-posting this person's work on the blog because it would be better and more fair if everyone went straight to the tumblr itself. However, I think people are more apt to look at something that's right under their nose, and this comparison/breakdown is so well done it needs to be seen. I hope by putting the link here:

CuteIcePrincessTumblr

the link generates traffic for the tumblr, so we have the best of both worlds.

The diagrammed images below tell the story, but it's the analysis I'm reposting beneath the images that's the piece de resistance. It is, of course, sick-making that Davis White's utter crap is rated with or better than Virtue and Moir's exquisite technique.The sport and everyone who enabled this has disgraced themselves, pissed on figure skating in order to elevate a team of fakes, a disgrace that will live on because it has come at the expense of the greatest ice dancers who've ever lived.  Everything that has gone into making Scott and Tessa spectacular technicians has been so much pissing in the wind this past quad. The people who control this sport are disgusting.

Please, please read the analysis below the images. What Tessa and Scott are doing will bring tears to your eyes.


I LOVE the line running from his center of gravity to the her feet. I LOVE the analyst calling attention to the perfect alignment of Scott's feet. This is some of the stuff even skating know-nothings unconsciously register, that tells them Scott and Tessa are better. We're wired to recognize balance, harmony, efficiency, proper alignment.

(BTW, while it's a bit OT, anybody who doesn't understand how Scott can lift Tessa safely while she's pregnant shouldn't just consider slower speed and other modifications, but Scott's (and Tessa's) extraordinary stability, and the mechanics/physics of true stability.)
VIRTUE/MOIR and DAVIS/WHITE: Vertical lift comparison.

***THE DESCRIPTION BELOW IS NOT MINE, IS MADE BY FRIEND OF MINE. SHE STUDIED PHYSICS AND FIGURE SKATING THECNIQUE*

TESSA AND SCOTT -CARMEN -SKATE CANADA 2012

1) Tessa prepares slender -as if she was preparing for a vertical -and Scott gives the base.

2) Tessa is resting on Scott’s right shoulder; in split she gives the impetus to get vertical. NOW soars high in both legs with her strength. Scott accompanies the movement.

3) Same thing in step 3. Notice that Scott’s feet are always perfectly aligned, even in the following points.

4) Tessa is on. Now, since the position, to rhyme such, requires a considerable work of abdominal, Scott supports one of the two legs of Tessa to make sure that she reaches alone its center of gravity balance.

5) Tessa bend her pelvis backward to seek balance. With the strength of the abdominal muscles, biceps and quadriceps remains on. Scott always gives support on his right shoulder (the only obvious support) while continuing to accompany with his hand.

6) Scott leaves Tessa’s leg, the lift is perfectly in balance, the two arrows signify the action-reaction that Scott and Tessa engaged one against the other to achieve the perfect barycentre

7) Due to the fact that Tessa has a perfect center of gravity (as mentioned above the pelvis) Scott unbalanced forces. The figure shows how the line connects perfectly Tessa’s shoes with the midpoint of Scott’s sprrad eagle legs. The lift in fact, works mechanically.



MERYL AND CHARLIE -SHERAZADE -FIGURE CLASSIC 2013

1) Charlie is on the verge of taking Meryl in an “embrace”. Meryl in turn clings to the back of Charlie. Note already the 4 points of support that Meryl has.

2) Charlie puts a hand over Meryl and one beneath her, announcing that he’ll turn it over. Meanwhile, Meryl is always resting both arms on his back.

3) Charlie turns Meryl.

4) While he turns her, he lift her up.

5) Note that we are already seeing the first support which will be those of the lift. Meryl has her whole arm around the shoulders of Charlie.

6) Meryl is completely in a comfortable position. Again with the 4 points of support, both Charlie’s shoulders, and his arms.

7) Now she can raise her legs.

8) Charlie mentions to remove the arm and here already it messes up the balance. Note in fact the two feet of Charlie begin to have a different slant.

9) This is pretty obvious (unfortunately the video quality does not allow it at the most) that the two feet of Charlie are on two different imaginary lines. This is obviously due to the difference in weight unloaded on two feet, which in turn is due to the complete lack of gravity in this lift is not by chance, if it joins an imaginary line between the center of Charlie’s legs and Meryl’s feet, you do not get a straight line.

10) Meryl mentions for a second to leave the left arm from Charlie, while maintaining two supports behind his back and on both Charlie’s shoulders with the other arm. The imbalance between the two feet persists.

11) After less than a second when Meryl pulled off her arm, Charlie takes Meryl to bring her down.

I want to clarify that we are not talking of cleaning, which comes after workouts and workouts. We talk about the basic physics of forces must balance, and those, if the lift has been built in a certain way, will never change.

Both lifts, go ahead to check the protocols, were judged to level 4, although one is easier than the other. In fact, Scott says more MASS (obviously Tessa has a mass much more pronounced then Meryl) and must perfectly balance the weight on the tails of the blades, across Tessa, has a much more difficult position, she has only one support and must find her own center of gravity with the force of the abdomen and pelvis (while Meryl has the support of both of the two arms behind the back of Charlie himself, has no center of gravity and therefore did not need to use her muscles. center of gravity is in fact its about Charlie.


** All credits for this post goes to my friend LadyB.

More from

CuteIcePrincessLoveTumblr

The polka:



Virtue//Moir and Davis/White: Polka Comparision - 2013 Worlds

By LadyB


(pic 1)The following are the two last year short dances, the rhythms of the POLKA, I repeat, POLKA, the point considered stronger on Meryl and Charlie.
Tessa and Scott were penalized 4 points below their opponents to a slight error on one of Tessa twizzle (which by the way did not deserve deduction level because the rotations were all there, at maximus less GoE).

I invite you to look at the depth of the edges, the postures, shoes’s distance, coordination, shoulders position, how both pairs are LEANING with the WEIGHT on the EDGES (= as you incline at left and right).

Then I pointed out with arrows one of polka's key points. (pic 2) Look at how the two couples are supporting. Their inclinations. The distance of the shoes.
Look at how Tessa and Scott work mechanically in a key point, evidently by repley of the judges, is not considered.
The weight is perfectly downloaded everything on the basins and to the left of the picture, the arrows are synchronous.

The polka is a pattern that is much more “rough" so to speak, in fact has a lot more thrust due to the small hops and hop choreography. BUT, there is a but. The fact that there are choreographic jumps, does not induce the couple to NOT do when the edges have to be made, or in the key points and directional changes (to speak bluntly, going from front to back). I just picked up the screen cap that emphasize these points, in order to understand how Tessa and Scott are always on the edges at points of transition, while Meryl and Charlie not. (pic 3)

1) In the first situation is already very obvious difference: Tessa and Scott accompanies the twizzling, subsisting on a perfect external edge, look at the angle of the body bending the left leg compared to the rigidity of the bust. Tessa on the other hand she is also in an interior, which together to that of Scott form an imaginary semicircle (= edges)

Let us now Charlie: it is argued, right on the vertical part of the shoe has no bearing on any of the two edges. Meryl same thing. This often happens in their polka sequence especially because, as already mentioned several times, they have to keep the speed that generate from hops without using the edges, and this obliges them to remain rights on the vertical part of the foot; however this should be penalized by the judges, because in a sequence, they themselves write that the keypoints are given by the proper use of edges. As we often see in DW edges are not even present.

2) the same situation to the next directional change. Scott argued inclined, Charlie vertically.

3) the situation three I put in to show the precision on directional change between Meryl and Tessa. Meryl is very detached from Charlie and takes more time to get closer, turning first with a sell. The two busts are not the same. Tessa with the same selling is already in position, aligned to Scott.

4) is very large the distance between Meryl and Charlie shoes , and, especially, the distance between their basins. In addition, the direction of the two feet is angled differently between the two skaters.  
Look at the two attacked basins of Tessa and Scott, perfect center of gravity, supported edges, exactly parallel. The up leg is the last thing to look at because it is very consistent with what I said: if the base is solid, the position of the torso and leg extension are secondarily spontaneous.

5) different distance between bust and shoulders. Also note how Tessa and Scott bent their neck back and forth, emphasizing the theme of their Short Dance, and adding difficulty (by moving the center of gravity of the balance).

6 and 7) the same situation: while Tessa is able to sustain herself on the bust, Meryl is driven by Charlie. The fact that is bent due to the fact that she has to balance with the body not having proper support on the edge. I would also emphasize how the arms of Tessa and Scott are perfectly inclined than Meryl and Charlie. Another consequence.

8) This is a simple cross over but I would like to see how even a basic step, Tessa and Scott have more width, more extension of the legs, pelvis split into more open, and always those neck movements that add difficulty.

9) I do not think that here there is much more to be added. Feet distance, torso angle, resting on the edges by extremely different between both couples.

The second image that I have outlined above is more to see one of Polka KEY POINT, a key point, which is one of those steps that cause the polka to reach the full level (to understand how the hard-fought chactaw the rumba, for those who know what I mean)
It’s clear that even here the difference is disarming in Tessa and Scott is a clear support on the edges, much greater inclination, corsets that create gravity on the basin, a crazy cleaning, is an emblematic image that really makes you realize how this couple is higher in position and in skating skills. I did see this in many of my friends who skate and they also agree that the difference between the two positions is disarming.
This is because the first thing they teach you when you start to skate and is the first thing that judge: how you use the edges.
Tessa and Scott have always been praised for their skating skills phenomenal, already when they were kiddies. And there are unfortunately ignorant fans that right now, they think that Tessa and Scott have worsened even in this, where, unfortunately, for these fans, they remain the best.
It’s also true that, right now, the judges, sadly analyzing replays have come to a different conclusion.


THANK YOU SO MUCH LadyB!!


*As thoroughly as Doris Pulaski?

308 comments:

  1. Thank you for this link! Wonderful analysis.

    Yes, it's heartbreaking. Ice dance judging is a disgusting mafia.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The real mafia business takes place above the judging level. It's the level of officials, directors, etc. The judges are the soldiers who carry out the Dons orders.

      Delete
    2. Those stills of Meryl getting herself into position in that lift are simply hideous. How does a girl not have better lines, core strength, acrobatic skills, when she's been doing this most of her life?

      It's the biggest joke that this team is anywhere near the top-10 of the world.

      Delete
    3. Meryl's inability to straighten her legs, her inability to manage her body in space, was highlighted on DWTs. It clearly has nothing to do with her subpar edge control, or Charlie's. It's a mystery I keep chasing. I've asked people about it, but none with real expertise. There's something super strange there. The single attribute that distinguishes Meryl and Charlie's performances is compensation. Every piece of choreography, all of the mechanics, are compensation. Charlie has his issues, but we can see from DWTs that, at least off-ice, he is capable. We saw from DWTs that Meryl isn't. But why. There's something there, and I'd love to find out what it is, because I've never seen it anywhere else, in anyone else.

      oc

      Delete
    4. "core strength, acrobatic skills, when she's been doing this most of her life?"

      Exactly, and I agree with OC that it appears there's something kinda bizarre here. She may not have good edges. She may not have good lines, good rhythm or other dance attributes. But she should be able to do basic athletic acrobat-ish type things. Maks had to yank her ( http://youtu.be/8epVxxpurwQ?t=16m47s ) or literally hold her and move her in place ( http://youtu.be/D_H3-_7s47s?t=6m20s ) in lifts or aerials. And this - look how she just collapses as soon as he stops supporting her torso. ( http://youtu.be/D_H3-_7s47s?t=10m35s )

      In a way, it does take *some* sort of talent to do what she did - to do a lot of fast poses and perform them with such confidence. And same with the Rach program, she's learned how to do a lot of showy pseudo-graceful movements - obviously there were some long-time DWTS fans who were pissed at the scoring and fawning, but I can see how part of the wider audience was fooled. Most weeks, she was able to convincingly fake it, better than I expected, really, and it's only on closer inspection and armed with knowledge about technique that it falls to pieces.

      Delete
    5. If the blog continues to harp on this issue, and assuming DW are retiring, I wouldn't be surprised if in the not too distant future we get some kind of article about some disability that Meryl has that limits her range of movement. It won't be her, but someone like her mom, who will reveal it, because Meryl would "never want sympathy" (only falsified scores) and "would never say anything about it herself." We've already had occasions of that with the dyslexia and some injury she had near the end of DWTS where somehow every online fan knew of the injury but could simultaneously aver that Meryl was keeping it a secret and it was so good of her not to want the sympathy.

      Then the fans would have it in their back pocket to take out whenever someone criticized Meryl's movement.

      (If she really did have a disability, I would be impressed with the fact that she was able to be in shape enough to make it to the National level in ice dance, but I'd still say she has to marked for the actual flaws she has, and would therefore not come anywhere near any international podium).

      Delete
    6. 5:50 - I agree, that's actually possible. And exactly - even the whole depth perception/dyslexia issue, if true, would have been a challenge - learning choreography, knowing where to be on the ice. If she was judged properly, good for her, honestly! But it doesn't make the flaws disappear.

      Delete
    7. Listen, DW fans were happy to pretend Tessa's legs negatively impacted her skating, Dave Lease pretended Virtue and Moir's stroking had weakened, when in fact it had become even more powerful, and figure skating isn't graded on a curve.

      "Most weeks, she was able to convincingly fake it, better than I expected, really, and it's only on closer inspection and armed with knowledge about technique that it falls to pieces."

      It was interesting how rapidly both her dance partners, Val and Maks, immediately deployed the same exact workarounds that she'd used for years in ice dance. Val was more inventive, even though he only had a week to put it together - although I'm sure his brother clued him in. The Argentine tango was pure sleight of hand fleshed out with classic DW style bullshit (like Meryl doing a cartwheel/handstand over a crouched Val - never mind her arms were bent, her legs were bent - where it was placed in the choreography and timed to the music made it "effective" without it actually being anything).

      The Chmerkovskiy brothers clearly know the issue. I don't know if they know the cause of it, but they know it's there. Both of them have big mouths (Maks more than Val). Some day I'd love if they had loose lips.

      Delete
    8. Haha, that would certainly be fun!

      Delete
  2. Virtue and Moir are the best - forever!

    ReplyDelete
  3. When I try the link you provided to canadablue's video I get "webpage not available.' Also, when I try the link l think canadablue him/herself provided in a comment, it doesn't work either. Maybe it only works in the country canadablue is in?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sorry, I realized it's still being processed on veoh! I had them loaded on youtube in the hopes that at some point the Olympic ban would be lifted, so I uploaded them to veoh only last night assuming it would be done by morning. I'll post here when it's finally done to let you know! But in addition, I think the first error you got is because OC's link has a space at the beginning. Once the video's done processing, just take that out and it should work.

      Delete
    2. I took out the space, so whenever the veoh video is processed, it should be available via the link.

      Delete
    3. Sigh, this is ridiculous, it's been almost 24 hours and I've tried again - it's not happening for some reason. Here's a new link. Could you swap it, OC, when you get the chance? Sorry about that.

      https://www.mediafire.com/folder/it1h11dm9kmci/Gala_Videos

      [It's designed to work with youtube annotations...and dailymotion also blocked it, so now I don't even have a description to put the links in - that's why it's a folder. Even though I edited the other 3 galas down to must-see highlights, the full versions will still be available there once they've uploaded.]

      Delete
    4. Oh! And I think I may have figured out why the videos uploaded to blogger don't work for some people, they don't for me and I wondered if it was a browser issue or something. Do you upload from Picasa through the photos button on blogger? Because I read that some will only play if uploaded through the video button.

      Delete
    5. I put the new link in the post. It's no trouble for me to update links, so anytime there's a change, when I'm informed, I can just do it.

      Delete
    6. Ok, thanks very much, OC.

      Delete
  4. sorry i dont mean to derail but continuing from the conversation in the last post, i think http://scottmoirfckedmyfriend.tumblr.com/ is most likely senseandspite because they have the same writing styles. for example:

    "You know whats really sad? Imagining that Scott Moir is some fucking PRINCE CHARMING who is going to sweep Tessa of her feet. You all don’t know the REAL Scott Moir. London and Ilderton are fucking EMBARRASSED by this guy as they SHOULD BE."
    senseandspite writes in a similar style, capitalizing certain words to emphasize them. they also like to mention how 'sad' (as in pathetic) us v/m fans are all the time. they also use the term "sweetheart" as well (but then again all petulant d/w fans do so whenever they have conniptions abt v/m and their fans). i know most of you are thinking "dont feed the troll" but honestly just ignoring them isnt going to work. they;re just going to find another forum or platform to troll and harass v/m fans.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, what is *not* ignoring them going to accomplish? It doesn't matter who is doing it. The person has 'troll" in capital letters over everything they do. My only question was, was it somebody adopting the persona of a troll, or a real troll. Seems to be a real one.

      Nobody can really be harrassed unless they choose to be. Emails from this person can be labeled so as to go straight to spam, or deleted. They can act out all they want on their own tumblr, but the more they act out, the less convincing they become.

      Delete
    2. No, ignoring trolls is what *does* work. The only reason some fans have for giving trolls continued attention is to try and wrest away control of a narrative from them.

      If you realize that the troll does *not* control the narrative in the first place (and this one does not control it and won't no matter how hard she/he/they they try), nor do the fans, it gets a lot easier to not care about what they're saying anywhere.

      The only thing that troll is doing is bothering a very small portion of the already established V/M fanbase, which seems to be the point of the tumblr. You should get over it. If what that troll is saying is not true, that's it then. It's not true. Move on. If at some point in the future, that troll says something that could or will actually damage V/M professionally, perhaps they or their representatives will try to put a stop to it. But if it's never going to damage them (and it likely never will), who gives a shit what that tumblr is saying?

      This isn't about V/M. This is about fans wanting to control the narrative of what can or cannot be said/thought about V/M. Just stop. That narrative is not yours to control, just as it's not V/M's to control either.

      Delete
    3. "This isn't about V/M. This is about fans wanting to control the narrative of what can or cannot be said/thought about V/M. Just stop. That narrative is not yours to control, just as it's not V/M's to control either. "

      Yes, and thanks for reminding everybody.

      Delete
    4. OC, they're attacking you and your blog now. methinks this is a direct response/reaction to the blog.

      Delete
    5. Could all of you just ignore the damned troll, please?

      Delete
    6. Sounds like those trolls aren't getting pretty desperate then, doesn't it?

      *yawn*

      Delete
    7. Are getting pretty desperate, I meant.

      Let them bitch and moan and lie about whatever they want. Doesn't matter.

      Delete
  5. Can someone help me articulate something? Scott, to me, has always seemed a ton more elegant than Charlie, but when I compare pictures it's hard for me to see why. I don't have the experience/knowledge to understand what I'm seeing. Is it that Charlie is more of a big-boned person? Are his costumes usually boxier than Scott's? Is it a posture/limb extension thing? Is it skating skills? This has been something that's been bugging me, because I know that Scott looks "cleaner" than Charlie (who looks cumbersome) to my untrained eye, but I can't articulate why.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Posture maybe? Charlie takes that wide hockey stance, and his butt sticks out all the time... he's not properly aligned. Scott is always straight, and also is superb when in dance hold. Charlie and Meryl skate far apart, both crouching, creating a diamond shape at the torso (watch their CDs). There's also his rocky blades and often wild twizzles, but I don't think that gets to the heart of what you're asking. I would say he looks like a singles skater, and a particularly elegant one (average though, whereas Meryl I'd consider far below the average female singles skater). Most pairs and dance men are far more smooth than Charlie.

      Delete
    2. Charlie doesn't finish his moves unless the choreography has made a point of having him finish his moves. What often happens is a choreographic phrase will conclude and DW will make a big show of a finish with their arm or head. Left to more or less his own devices, and in between what's choreographed to his finger tips, he just flings. Another thing is alignment. Both Tessa and Scott have their chests open, their necks long, and stretch through their hips and pelvis. Meryl and Charlie have been schooled to lift their chin but that's where it ends. There are constant form breaks. They don't use good form to move. They will "pose" good form from time to time - finish up with their chins lifted and their chests pushed up and out, but if you look at their backs, their ribcage, and their pelvis, they're not extending. Another difference is that Scott has absolutely sublime edges, and he uses his whole body when he skates. Charlie's edges rock, and he's pushing and wide-stepping a whole lot more than Scott. As pointed out, he butt juts too. He doesn't use his core.

      Delete
    3. Obviously Scott has a great deal of talent, but I would think a huge part of it is the sheer amount of hours of dance he's almost certainly done to keep up with Tessa - and probably to spend as much time with her as possible LOL. And adding to the conversation above about Charlie and compensation - I pretty much agree, and it's hard to say what he'd be like if Meryl could pull her - or hold, rather haha - her weight more in the partnership. As it is, there's the butt-jutting, the wide-stepping and the flailing. Also, I think the last couple years the absolute mature smoothness of Scott's skating - I think that adds into the impression as well.

      Delete
    4. Something I've never understood is how there can be such huge differences between VM and DW's fundamentals. Regardless of where they received training in the early years, you'd think if there's a lack in the basics, it's the first thing to be addressed at their new, elite training center (Canton). It's not like DW wouldn't be under the same regimen as VM as far as dance/ballet and other off-ice training.

      Igor and Marina are praised as great coaches but they weren't able to fix Tanith's issues (and they were fixable, as seen after she moved to Linichuk) and never fixed DW's issues. I've noticed since the split Igor's teams aren't really showing great improvements, either. They might have a little better choreography or they manage to "hit the levels" more consistently, but the essential skating of each team is not improved. It truly is a testament to VM's work ethic and talent how they improved in every area, every season. However, I wonder how much of it is on the coach, per se, when she didn't manage that with other teams.

      Delete
    5. "However, I wonder how much of it is on the coach, per se, when she didn't manage that with other teams."

      V/M's success and improvement per year is probably half on them, half on their coaches. Just like it probably was with all of the other teams Shpilband and Zoueva have worked with over the years.

      Delete
    6. Igor's teams have generally had similar weaknesses as D/W, it's V/M who are the outliers. They're certainly the most talented skaters he (and Marina) have ever had and their ability to dance has always been a great strength of theirs. It would make sense to build on this strength. With teams such as as D/W, B/A, C/Z, these things didn't come as easily so they decided to hide it or fake it as much as possible.

      This is what has always frustrated me about the Canton coaching team: they've excelled at hiding weaknesses but have never seriously tried to address them. OC mentions D/W putting on a show of good form, of finishing their moves, and that's something that was very apparent this year. It's effective. They look, if you're not paying too much attention, elegant and sophisticated. And if that's enough for the judges, why should they expose themselves? If you've neglected something for years, there's no quick fix, it's going to be difficult, it's going to take time. If you want to win right now, you don't have that kind of time. Igor and Marina have excelled at winning, not so much at turning out well-rounded ice dancers. And wining is what counts, they produce results.

      Some fans say that D/W haven't improved since Vancouver and that's clearly nonsense. The issue is that their improvements are not nearly as important as they may seem, because of the tricks they use. For example, it still takes some effort to provide that veneer of sophistication, to "pose" at finishing their moves, and it's not something they could do in 2010. But it's only the first step, maybe 10% of what V/M are doing out there, and yet they're being judged as if they've equalled or surpassed them.

      Delete
    7. @1:17

      I wouldn't say Igor's skaters have shown no improvement, the issue is that he's good at getting better scores on COP step sequences and not much else. Certainly the dancing part of ice dance is not something that appears to interest him. And for Marina, it's feelings and emotions (and winning) that appear to be her priority, how these are achieved is not particularly important.

      Delete
    8. Getting better scores on COP step sequences, how? I haven't seen much if any improvement by Shpilband's skaters in that area over the last few years, yet his teams are getting higher scores on those elements regardless.

      As for Zoueva, I don't buy the argument that V/M's improvements were in spite of her instead of due to her work with them. A good hard look at her choreography for them pretty much dispels that argument. It's very clear that the three of them developed a very close, intense understanding of what worked/didn't work/could be improved/how it could be improved via footwork and body movement and put it into practice in a myriad of different iterations. She GOT them - could read them, push them - in a way I don't think any choreographer has before or since. The proof is in the body of work and their execution of it from the micro levels all the way up.

      Delete
    9. I don't think that anon meant in spite of Marina, though I could be wrong. Just that Marina and Igor as coaches tend to focus on things other than improving their teams from the basic skills up. They don't generally seem to work to fix weaknesses, instead hiding them, unless the team itself has a desire to do so (as in VM's case).

      Short version: they work on what they believe will achieve a team's goals, whether or not that's great skating.

      Delete
    10. IMO, the thing that makes Marina so special and elite is a kind of madness she possesses. Not an actual psychological madness, but a kind of creative madness that is sometimes hard to understand from an outsider's perspective. Because it makes sense in her head, and she constructs a vision of what something will become long before it's ever taken an actual physical form. There are a few older interviews with V/M where Tessa was quoted as saying Marina would tell them she wanted them to work toward something - the creation of a specific move or more of a general sensibility via movement - and Tessa would think "there's no way that's possible, she's crazy." BUT, she (and Scott) placed their trust in her because they knew she had that vision for them, an understanding of what they could accomplish, that mirrored THEIR vision for themselves as a team, knew she could read them well, and could push them to where they wanted to go (even if they didn't quite understand how she was pushing them at the time). Not only what they could do at that moment but what she knew they were capable of executing down the line.

      There's a reason Marina Zoueva has struck lightening with two of the best teams to ever put on skates - V/M and G/G. It's because she's known how to build them and take them to a new level by working with them through choreography to achieve a shared vision. That makes her a great choreographer/coach in my book, even if she's not been able to replicate the same kind of improvements with less talented teams (because the talent issue is the larger problem and, as 3:17 nailed in his/her comment, the larger goal in ice dance is to win. Marina's teams win because she works to create choreography to make that happen).

      Delete
    11. I don't know how much of a technical coach Marina is meant to be (skating skills). When she choreographed for G&G, G&G had just moved to ditch Stanislav Zhuk, and had a new, young coach. That coach brought in Zoueva as choreographer. She is a brilliant choreographer. She understands how each skater moves. Look at what she did for Jessica Dube's short program with Sebastien Wolfe - got the needle out of the groove, made her wake up, and it was all in the timing. The moves themselves were in Dube's wheelhouse. The Dube/Wolfe long program was put together by the usual suspects, was the usual snore, and featured the usual concentration lapses and errors.

      I take Tarasova as on the level when she says Zoueva has assembled a team of experts. She's SO fucking good at what she does, she's not threatened by uber talented people. If someone leaves, she knows who and how to bring on someone else.

      But when it comes to, who is responsible for the basic skating, the tech - I don't think it's her. That's never been her game.

      Delete
    12. I think Zoueva's genius is multi-faceted. She's insightful, perceptive, intuitive, she's musical beyond anyone else in the sport, she understands what the skater can do. With G&G and Virtue Moir, she had a blank canvas. She's a skater, so she understands that when she sees it. Both teams (G&G and Virtue Moir) have been described as "limitless". Anything Marina can envision, they can/could execute. In that sense, each team was a blank canvas.

      Simultaneously, it's a sport. and she's canny enough to understand what packages appeal to judges (although the "package" shouldn't carry any weight whatsoever) and the public.

      There's also the fact of the skaters themselves. Fans make so much of themes, music choice, style, as if that's a judge thing. That's a skater thing. Music choice, theme - fans think that's about pitching it to the judges. It's really pitching it to the skaters themselves, so they feel free to show off everything they can do. What's needed is a package that gives the skater(s) confidence, that highlights everything they can do, and minimize their deficiencies; something that helps the skater skate with freedom and, most of all, conviction. Nobody does this better than Marina. That's a substantial skill set. It requires being a pretty good amateur psychologist, a student of movement and all that entails, a good politician, a good judge of character.

      As far as D/W, some have questioned why Marina didn't go after their obvious skating deficiencies. MY speculation is that if it were just Charlie, she could have done so, or, if not her, sicced her tech specialists on them. When I look at junior DW, I see skaters who actually do it, but not at top 5, or even top 10 level. What holds them back is the need to re-set. They're segment skaters. They can't do THIS/Transition/THAT. They can't transition. They can't control momentum. They can't actually SKATE linking moves. And of course, getting into lift mechanics, Meryl is special needs. Maria is canny enough to work around that problem, but of course, she's not actually fooling anybody but segments of the public. Anybody who is skating knowledgeable can immediately see the problem. Marina knows that as well, and I think that's why her conscience is clear. The sport's corruption isn't her fault. Her job is to package DW as best she can. She did it. The sport's job is to say, very nice package, but the skating, not so much. They didn't.

      The fact that so many judging panels, that the ISU - IGNORED the problem isn't Marina's responsibility. Marina, correctly, thought VM could get 200 (max score) with Carmen as their free dance. I don't think in her wildest dreams she imagined VM struggling to clear 100 at Nationals because fucking Skate Canada (Benoit Lavoie) was in bed with David Dore, and if that meant the most spectacular skating skills program in the history of ice dance got shat on, well, too bad.

      Delete
    13. I think you're giving Marina too much credit here. Her conscience is clear? She's a very successful woman in a sport that requires you to play the game. She also designs programs that do a good job of hiding her skaters' weaknesses, knowing full well this means they might finish ahead of more deserving skaters. Why would she care? The goal is to win, not to be fair. And if your teams finish 1-2, you win no matter what.

      And do you really think all the commentators (from Canada and many other non-US countries) and judges who sing DW's praises are all part of a conspiracy and don't believe a word they're saying? Marina's programs and little tricks, combined with the DW PR, were more effective than you think. They were able to redefine good ice dance to match their specific skill set. Over several years, one step at a time. It's like the frog in the soup pot, you barely notice it until it's there.

      The USFS did a great job and Marina contributed, helping DW get a gold medal that would have been impossible without her. I'm not blaming her, she's only playing the game like everyone else, some more successfully than others. But she isn't this pure creature, perfectly removed from the muck, that you appear to be picturing. You're trying to reconcile your outrage at the elevation of DW and your worship of Marina by saying their undeserved gold is all other people's fault. I'm sorry, that's impossible. She played a big part in it, she could see how the judging was going, she designed programs meant to fool the judges. You can't successfully work in the muck every day and remain clean, you just can't. Everyone in skating is tainted to a degree.

      Delete
    14. I don't believe OC is trying to claim Marina is pure. The claim is that she did the job she felt she needed to do in order to win per the way the game is played, and there are plenty of people in the sport (including the judges) who should be able to see past the package, look at the actual skating, and call it for what it is. You think Tracy Wilson actually believed what she was saying about D/W? That she conveniently forgot what good skating looks like because Meryl Davis threw some wiggly arms into the choreography and entranced her? Not likely.

      The point being made (as I understood it) was: Zoueva did the job she needed to do with each team's choreography in order to capitalize and best package what they can do. Zoueva always said in interviews "it's up to the judges to decide."

      A lot of V/M are pissed, it seems, because Marina worked within the system instead of calling it out. Are those fans also pissed at V/M? Because they've worked within that system as well. Hell, look at Tessa Virtue. She just dropped the line that all the top teams were equal technically and the judging all came down to preference. They've said that for years. Is that the way it's supposed to happen? NO. Is that the way things went down? Also, no. We know D/W were technically equal to V/M. But that's how Tessa sold it. Guess who else sells it that way? Marina. Yet somehow, she gets flayed for saying such things and Tessa's comments get excused away because "oh, she and Scott might skate again down the line and they're protecting themselves so they aren't labeled arrogant."

      Marina has to work within the system too, it's her career on the line. Fans want to be pissed? Fine. Be pissed at the ISU, which is the true villain of this story. But if fans want to be pissed at Marina Zoueva and D/W, they'd sure as hell better be pissed at V/M as well.

      Delete
    15. Damn it, typos: I meant to say that we know D/W were NOT technically equal to V/M, yet V/M have also been spinning things that way for years.

      Delete
    16. "But if fans want to be pissed at Marina Zoueva and D/W, they'd sure as hell better be pissed at V/M as well." why do they need to be pissed at v/m? they did all they could.

      Delete
    17. What drives me nuts about the "Marina sold out V/M for a second gold medal with D/W" scenario some fans have concocted in their heads is that it paints V/M as victims and Marina and D/W as the villains.

      How are V/M the victims when they were saying the exact same things as Marina and D/W? Do people think V/M were brainwashed? For fuck's sake, the excuses that are made for V/M by their fans - it boggles the mind. They likely chose to stay with Marina because they (correctly) knew that she was the best choreographer for them and the most powerful coach in the sport. If they'd have left her, they would not have won a gold medal in Sochi. I don't give a shit what anyone says in retrospect. Changing coaches was not going to fix a damn thing. They are ALL - D/W, V/M, Marina, Igor - ALL OF THEM - locked into a game with rules the ISU makes.

      Honestly, as far as the narrative thing was concerned, I don't think D/W were anymore of the problem than V/M were themselves.

      Delete
    18. "why do they need to be pissed at v/m? they did all they could."

      Because of what I said above. V/M get painted as victims of the ISU's system of corruption, yet somehow those same fans don't perceive D/W and Marina Zoueva to also be victims of that system. But they are, meaning - they are all subject to the rules of the game set down by the ISU.

      For the entirety of their careers, D/W and V/M have always publicly spoken about how they pushed one another, made the other team better, etc. V/M marveled at D/W "never putting a foot wrong." Tessa Virtue has come out and said "the judging is all about preference because all the teams were pretty much equal at the top."

      Is Tessa Virtue saying that sort of thing, and she and Scott praising their training mates, them "doing all they could?" Well...in the ISU's system...yes, it is. To call it out is to put yourself in a position to be punished. So, V/M's comments get excused by their fans. But if/when D/W or Marina make the same comments, those excuses go by the wayside. They're attacked because the skating doesn't match up to what they're saying about their skating. That's right. But it doesn't match up to what V/M were saying about D/W's skating either. They perpetuated the narrative as much as D/W and Marina did.

      If V/M are going to be excused for their comments because the system put them in an untenable position, D/W and Marina have to also be excused because they are functioning in that same system as well. The SYSTEM is the problem.

      Delete
    19. "The claim is that she did the job she felt she needed to do in order to win per the way the game is played, and there are plenty of people in the sport (including the judges) who should be able to see past the package, look at the actual skating, and call it for what it is."

      And that makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like saying I lied and misrepresented myself in an interview but it isn't my fault if they make the mistake of hiring me, as they should have been able to see through it. Of course they're responsible for their decision, but I was actively trying to mislead them and am not without blame.

      Marina is certainly no different than lots of other coaches and choreographers out there, but I find it amusing that people will analyze in detail all the tricks and fakery in DW's programs and then insist that it's only the evil ISU that's to blame and that Marina had no choice. Of course she had a choice, no one's forcing her to do anything. It might not have been in her absolute best interest, career-wise, to ignore certain suggestions, that's not the same thing. And, while I don't quite get the fuss over DW's exhibition number, I doubt the USFS came and told her "we demand that you give them a number that's similar to Mahler to show that they're just as good as VM. If you don't, we'll...what exactly? It's a dumb gala number and DW are virtual locks for gold. The USFS would most likely have been kissing her feet, not bullying her. She could have easily given DW a different kind of lyrical program but didn't, that's on her.

      I'm not sure how VM's terrible PR has anything to do with Marina. I believe VM's tactics or lack thereof certainly played a large part in how they were ultimately scored, but why does it have to be one or the other? That's the problem with the "everything is the ISU's fault" line of thinking. It's easy to have your heroes and villains but in reality almost everybody is to blame (plus the ISU isn't some monolithic bloc, its members have varying agendas and most of them don't have a burning need to install an ice dance team as Olympic champions). You say the system is the problem but it isn't so much a system imposed by the evil ISU as a culture that permeates the FS world. Everyone participates in this culture, everyone helps maintain it, yet no one is being forced to do so.

      Delete
    20. Also, if you think Marina is the most powerful coach in the sport (personally I think it's Igor) then she would have the least to lose in not following the usual script. Change has to start from somewhere.

      Delete
    21. In the 2013-2014 season, Marina Zoueva coached the top two teams in the sport. Igor Shpilband did not. That made Marina Zoueva the top (and most powerful) coach in the sport at that time. If, when he left Canton, Igor Shpilband was the most powerful coach in the sport, it's likely one of the top three teams he coached with Zoueva would have gone with him. That did not happen. Whether she's *still* the most powerful is irrelevant to the conversation about D/W and V/M's scores last season, which is what's being discussed here.

      "You say the system is the problem but it isn't so much a system imposed by the evil ISU as a culture that permeates the FS world. Everyone participates in this culture, everyone helps maintain it, yet no one is being forced to do so."

      Cultures do not spontaneously arise or exist independently of the systems they exist within, and the ISU created and rules over the system that facilitates that culture. The ISU has ultimate power. That is the point that is being made. It has power over the federations, the coaches, and the skaters.

      The issue I think OC has (and what I agree with) is the argument that because Marina Zoueva was the coach of both those teams, she should have stood up and done something to stop the corruption happening. You seem to be saying that the corruption stems from the culture within figure skating. Where do you think that culture comes from? The South Korean federation offered a recent statement claiming its concern regarding speaking out about Yuna Kim's scores because it did not want its skaters unfairly punished in their marks next season. That was coming from a federation. Do you not think that even if a coach wanted to, s/he wouldn't also fear retribution for speaking out against unfairness/corruption? Or do you think it's just the skaters and the feds who should fear it?

      Also, who in this conversation has said Marina Zoueva had no choice? No one has said that. Like every other coach in the sport, she is an opportunist. Creating winning teams is her career goal. It's why skaters go to her for coaching and choreography. No one has said Marina Zoueva had no choice to package D/W the way she did. OC said Marina likely has a clear conscience because she knows how the system works and what is required to succeed within it. In other words, she's not doing anything different than all the other coaches in the sport. They all operate on the same structural wavelength. That's why the argument is, you can look at what's facilitating the culture, the corruption, which is the ISU. Or, you can claim the people below (the feds, the coaches) are the problem, switch one out for another, and get the same results anyway.

      "And that makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like saying I lied and misrepresented myself in an interview but it isn't my fault if they make the mistake of hiring me, as they should have been able to see through it. Of course they're responsible for their decision, but I was actively trying to mislead them and am not without blame."

      The point being made is that EVERYONE is implicated - the feds, the coaches, the skaters, and the media - but that the primary blame must lie with the people who facilitate the system and the culture that feeds it - which is the ISU.

      Delete
    22. "You say the system is the problem but it isn't so much a system imposed by the evil ISU as a culture that permeates the FS world. Everyone participates in this culture, everyone helps maintain it, yet no one is being forced to do so."

      Upon what is this assertion based? Here we have a governing body that has no oversight, a situation that can persist because figure skating isn't thought to have visual oversight, and so the media and everyone else is vulnerable to spin. This governing body therefore, and predictably, doesn't conduct itself with integrity, and is extremely political/self-dealing. It follows that everyone under the authority of the governing body commences to strategize with this reality in mind. That's how corruption trickles down.

      I really don't understand where it's just the 'culture'. A culture is a response to something. I wish I could recall the title of the book I have in mind, but it was a small book looking at some of the various cultural practices considered bizarre by many westerners. The book was able to show that in each case, the cultural practices were a response to concrete realities. The concrete reality in figure skating is there's no visual oversight. Anytime there's something the public and the media perceives as off, they are unable to verify for themselves by looking at the actual skating. They're at the mercy of spin. The context, the argument, is all someone else's, someone else is who political themselves. Look at L'Equipe. The media that covered that story couldn't, of course, look at Davis White's performances versus Virtue and Moir's. They could only look at Davis White's record, and listen to the spin from interested parties. The ISU is the way it is, and therefore the culture of figure skating is the way it is. The "culture", by which we mean the training centers, the skaters, the Federations, can't simply develop skaters to the best of their talents and trust to fair outcomes. The governing body is a corrupt, mob-like entity. Therefore everything lower down reflects that. It's futile to have an honest infrastructure if the oversight of said infrastructure is corrupt.

      Delete
    23. "Nobody is being forced to do so." Really? What is this based upon. It seems to me we had Virtue and Moir do absolutely nothing political when it came to their skating, however much bullshit they shoveled at us about their off-ice lives. Virtue and Moir trained with integrity, skated with integrity, and got absolutely fucked this past quad. You think all the "culture" has to do is conduct itself with integrity and .... what? Say it's okay if we lose? Do you think a pair of skaters whose parents have shoveled hundreds of thousands of dollars into their career, who see that there's a political route to victory, are reasonably expected to say, nope, we're happy being top fifteen.

      Delete
    24. P.S., you also have P/I, another team that trains with integrity and skates with integrity, getting low balled at worlds. Let's look at those who "aren't forced to do so" and don't do so. How's it working out for them?

      Delete
    25. I would also argue that a coach is only as powerful as those who train with them. MARINA isn't powerful. Davis White and Virtue and Moir were "powerful" in that they were the two most successful teams in ice dance. She's only as powerful as the teams in her rink, and either team had the ability to dilute her so-called power at any moment. Frank Carroll was powerful until suddenly Michelle Kwan didn't want to train with him anymore. In a situation where a coach has the top skaters, it is the top skaters who have power - over the coach, if not over much else - not the coach that has the power. Davis White, in particular, had a Federation and extremely, extremely interested families aiming towards one goal.

      Some people think Marina ought to have "taken a stand" called them out (which is in effect calling out the ISU) and just taken the hit on her career, because going against the ISU is sure to bring many terrific skaters to your front door, as skaters are so courageous like that.

      Delete
    26. "Is Tessa Virtue saying that sort of thing, and she and Scott praising their training mates, them "doing all they could?" Well...in the ISU's system...yes, it is. To call it out is to put yourself in a position to be punished. So, V/M's comments get excused by their fans. But if/when D/W or Marina make the same comments, those excuses go by the wayside. They're attacked because the skating doesn't match up to what they're saying about their skating. That's right. But it doesn't match up to what V/M were saying about D/W's skating either. They perpetuated the narrative as much as D/W and Marina did.

      If V/M are going to be excused for their comments because the system put them in an untenable position, D/W and Marina have to also be excused because they are functioning in that same system as well. The SYSTEM is the problem."

      How can that be? Marina has the power to make a change! She's not vulnerable to the system at all because she's so powerful.

      This is what beats me - Marina. Alone among every other person, entity, organization in the entire freaking sport - only Marina had the power and the moral obligation to call this out. Who else, besides her? And how does this work, exactly? I'm interested in the scenario as envisioned by those for whom it boils down to Marina. She shouldn't put together the package for Davis White that she put together, because that's actively misleading. What should she have choreographed instead? She, who is not a technical coach, should have told them she was going no further with them until they became real skaters instead of fake skaters. The media is told what, when Davis White depart? Except very likely Davis White don't depart in that event, Marina departs. The USFSA feels what about Marina then, and the ISU's attitude towards Marina becomes what?

      Or Marina is so persuasive and powerful she is able to get Davis White to buckle down and agree to become authentic skaters, even though they then are just top ten skaters. Her moral authority gets that done.

      What is the storyline here? The alternative storyline where Marina behaves with integrity as defined by some who think she didn't. What are the consequences for Marina, the sport, the skaters? Or not? How does this alternative play out?

      Delete
    27. " I doubt the USFS came and told her "we demand that you give them a number that's similar to Mahler to show that they're just as good as VM. If you don't, we'll...what exactly? It's a dumb gala number and DW are virtual locks for gold. The USFS would most likely have been kissing her feet, not bullying her. She could have easily given DW a different kind of lyrical program but didn't, that's on her."

      You doubt that based on what? The fact that the USFSA's entire p.r. push for DW in this past year leading up to Sochi is every single thing VM have, they don't actually have, it's DW who have it? DW have chemistry you can cut with a knife? DW have the connection in Notre Dame, VM lack it in Carmen?

      None of this is strategic? It's Marina. Of course it's Marina. Just hand wave the USFSA. They're not involved in packaging DW. Once the games themselves are over, there's no need to keep spinning and slam dunking.

      WHERE DO PEOPLE GET THESE IDEAS!!! Of COURSE they keep spinning afterwards. Why the fuck did Meryl need to go on DWTs and get, cumulatively, the highest scores of any contestant in the history of ever on this show. A DANCE show. She already had a gold medal, why not let her compete on the merits? It's just a stupid reality show. Because that helps the spin about Meryl as an amazing dancer. Did you hear? Tessa isn't the great dancer. It's Meryl. She's practically Pavlova.

      The gala program isn't just a stupid gala program, it's part of the packaging, it's part of the spin, and it certainly didn't stop after the ice dance event.

      These are the things I don't get. What certain assertions are based on. The USFSA, which has micro-managed DW's narrative and spin for four years, didn't have any input into DW's gala program. Let's just wave that off. Sure, the USFSA closely oversee the music choice and the programs that DW do competitively, and have dictated that DW toss programs before, but when it came to their big coming out party as Olympic champions, the USFSA was just whatever. Sure. Let's go with that. It makes so much sense. The USFSA isn't interested in retroactively justifying the heist they just pulled off. The USFSA has the gold in its clutches, no giving it back, now DW can skate to whatever and do whatever.

      Delete
    28. If anyone thinks Davis White and all of those who got the gold medal for them aren't acutely aware that many believe they're only pretenders to the throne and Virtue and Moir are the real champions, that is naive. Nobody gets this sort of overwhelming, railroaded, quash all dissent, admit no flaw, overcompensation overkill without everyone involved being acutely aware that Davis and White are extremely vulnerable to the comparison with Virtue and Moir. The strategy throughout, up to and including the gala coming out party (dismissed as stupid little gala program - no such thing - it was their coming out party as Olympic champions) has been a shameless best defense is a good offense. Go after Virtue and Moir. They won't speak out because it's their Fed's job, and their Fed sold its soul to your Fed and the ISU, so be as shameless as you want. The gala program was a continuation of "chemistry you can cut with a knife" "We're now the full package", "VM lack connection", etc. It wasn't some little throwaway.

      I also dispute the idea that Marina put these stealth programs together and fooled the commentariat and the judges. No, she didn't. The ISU controlled what was said by the commentators and done by the judges. Not Marina. Even with the programs as they went out, many in the media liked VM better but didn't know why, because they weren't educated. They just figured DW must be technically better, since they don't know what technique is. Everybody in the sport, everybody commenting on the sport, knew better.

      True, Marina gave them programs that work well with the music. She'd give a CanSkate skater a program that worked well with the music, that used whatever that skater could do. She didn't give them a program that had stuff in it they couldn't do. That must be her fault. She should have put stuff in the program that they couldn't skate clean, that would risk them falling down or tripping. Cause the USFSA would have just said "Sure, keep that in." It's on Marina that DW had programs so comfortably inside their wheelhouse there was never a risk of tripping up. It's not the ISU for rating so much of that crap L4, for example, to start with much of what the ISU did.

      Delete
    29. "You're trying to reconcile your outrage at the elevation of DW and your worship of Marina by saying their undeserved gold is all other people's fault. I'm sorry, that's impossible."

      I'm not OC, but I hate this kind of "you're an uber and you're thinking like an uber and that's why you're saying what you are!" pseudo-logic employed by so many figure skating fans.

      I have read all of OC's posts on this matter each time it's been discussed, and the counterargument I read about them in other places is "the blogger is obsessed with praising Marina and can't accept any criticism of her!"

      Bullshit. There's that "uber! Uber! Uber!" dumbassery again.

      OC has always said that the skaters and the coaches in the sport are dictated to by the feds, and that the ISU is the overarching body that makes the rules and has the ultimate authority to punish. That doesn't argue against the notion that everyone is somewhat tainted by the corruption of the sport, it AGREES with it. However, it does NOT place blame for that corruption on the coaches. OC has never said "Marina is pure." Where is that even coming from? OC has essentially said "Marina worked within the system just like all the other coaches do, then left the marks up to the judges." Why is that ignored or pushed aside in these conversations?

      Delete
    30. "Everybody in the sport, everybody commenting on the sport, knew better. "

      How do you know this? You've called me (and others) out for basing my arguments on assumptions but you do it all the time. How in the world can you speak for everybody in the sport, how do you know what they're thinking? You don't.

      Delete
  6. "Also, if you think Marina is the most powerful coach in the sport (personally I think it's Igor) then she would have the least to lose in not following the usual script. Change has to start from somewhere."

    This also makes no sense. Coaches are powerful based on who they train. If they don't have the skaters, they don't have power. Bucking the ISU is a good way to lose skaters and their families.

    Because she's an extremely talented, brilliant choreographer, I believe Marina could probably flourish as a choreographer-at-large a la a David Wilson. She could be "for hire" and just put programs together for different skaters. Even then, she'd have to be pretty ready to lose it all if she decided to change the script.

    I myself am not clear about the fixation with Marina and what she should do. Entire Federations are left off the hook. Every commentator in the business is left off the hook. Marina Zoueva is the one responsible, apparently.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Clearly Marina would have the MOST to lose.

      Delete
    2. "And that makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like saying I lied and misrepresented myself in an interview but it isn't my fault if they make the mistake of hiring me, as they should have been able to see through it. Of course they're responsible for their decision, but I was actively trying to mislead them and am not without blame."

      No, it's not. She put together a package that worked musically and athletically for Davis and White. The lack of skating was absolutely transparent. How is putting together an effective program with crap skating in it a lie? EVERYBODY can see that Davis and White don't do it. The judges know it. Tanith Belbin knows it. David Dore knows it.

      "but I was actively trying to mislead them and am not without blame."

      I'm sorry, I don't think her being talented = "actively trying to mislead them."

      I don't know what it is you wanted her to do, exactly. As said, she is a choreographer and a visionary. When she worked with Gordeeva & Grinkov, they had a technical coach. Marina is the "coach" at Arctic Edge in that she's the one who assembles the team, she's the arbitrator, she knows music and movement, tension and release, she knows how to extend momentum. These attributes are in every program she designs for every single skater, even when that skater is mediocre. Ought she to have consciously NOT used this talent when choreographing Davis White?

      Davis and White's limitations were on display for everyone to see. Their ridiculous out of sync, two-twizzle pass. Their short-stepped, choppy step sequences. Charlie running all over the ice, Meryl skipping all over the ice and all of her stutter steps and intersticial walking and two footing. The clutching and grabbing in the lifts, and Charlie's out of alignment feet. How they labored across the ice, how their torsos were far apart, how they didn't straighten their legs, how their skates were far apart. No program she put together for Davis and White hid any of that, or even tried to hide any of that. Shit, Die Fleudermaus, their most celebrated program of this past quad, was nothing but a festival of running, skipping, crouching, hair flinging and stand still twirling. Any civilian looks at that with an attentive eye and it falls apart.

      You're blaming Marina for the entire sport's refusal to notice what Davis and White were and weren't doing. Here's the thing - they noticed. Marina didn't hide shit. Davis White got the scores anyway.

      I guess the bottom line is, what did you want her to do? What ought she to have done. Said to Davis White, unless you improve and skate with integrity, our relationship is done no matter what scores you receive? Put together a program below her own capabilities so as to expose them? (They're already exposed. Didn't matter - nobody acknowledged it.)

      She should have refused to use what she puts in every single program for every single skater no matter what their abilities?

      How long do you think she would have remained at Arctic Edge if she'd done so?

      The degree of self-immolation people seem to expect of Marina is absolutely baffling.

      Delete
    3. Haven't been part of this conversation yet, and I don't have anything much new to add, really, but I just would like a clarification of your position, OC because I'm a bit confused and would like to understand.

      In the post below, you said this:

      "But the entire story that it was Davis White's "turn", that they'd earned it simply because of the money they'd put in, paid their dues, speaks to entitlement and privilege. In sport, paying your dues doesn't entitle you to anything. Ice dance doesn't want to function as a sport. It's, I put a ton of money into this, I traveled all over the world (another privilege that some spin as a hardship), I want to see my kids on the top of the podium at the Olympics! Davis and White were even grotesque when talking about Sochi. At least as I received what they were saying. Meryl put it almost like "We were good little ice dancers in Vancouver, good sports, and didn't begrudge them their gold - we were able to look up at them and say "you deserve it."' But THIS time they weren't going to "play nice" - they wanted the gold for themselves. It was the whole tone of how they played nice in Vancouver instead of having their asses kicked. Good fucking sports about WHAT? They were lucky to get silver and were overscored as it was, particularly in the cd. The attitude is insufferable. "

      And then in this thread said this:

      "Do you think a pair of skaters whose parents have shoveled hundreds of thousands of dollars into their career, who see that there's a political route to victory, are reasonably expected to say, nope, we're happy being top fifteen."

      but also noted that the USFSA had a lot of control over D/W's trajectory and that "The strategy throughout ...has been a shameless best defense is a good offense. "

      and you also agreed with this statement
      "If V/M are going to be excused for their comments because the system put them in an untenable position, D/W and Marina have to also be excused because they are functioning in that same system as well. The SYSTEM is the problem"

      So that seems like a contradiction to me, but maybe I'm just missing a nuance of your argument. Of - Marina, USFSA, ISU, D/W, D/W's parents, SC and V/M (only because they say stupid things about the judging, as another poster noted), and why not throw in supporters (eg. Sinead Kerr) and commentators, who should have clear consciences and who should feel shame?

      It's clear where you stand on these:

      Not to blame [as in, everyone's tainted by playing the game like 12:12 said, but these people can have clear consciences considering the situation]: Marina, V/M
      Definitely to blame - ISU, SC

      Delete
    4. Part 2

      Are D/W, D/W's parents and the USFSA absolved for following their own interests, and if not, Marina is absolved because... she was only following orders, and not the driving force behind it? [And as I've written this, you've added she had the most to lose - more than D/W?] Where do commentators and the Sineads of the situation fit in? And if yes, why should we feel offended or whatever by D/W's - very insufferable, in my mind - PR tactics at all?

      The part about the coaches being only as powerful as the teams is an interesting point, hadn't thought of it like that.

      Delete
    5. I also haven't participated in this particular discussion yet (though I have in the past Marina discussions) and I think there's a lot of straw men going up. The idea is put out there that the non-Marina crowd (or whatever you want to call them) all expected Marina to single-handedly take down the ISU/USFS and act against the interests of DW as if she had the power to do so. And hahaha isn't that stupid. It's an easy straw man to thump.

      It's the opposite position that I find to be more unbelievable. That is, the idea that ALL of these groups were colluding toward DW and against VM (commentators, journalists, ISU), including VM's own federation, but *Marina* was not part of it whatsoever.

      The idea is that DW's exhibition was deliberately designed to say that VM have nothing that DW don't or can't. (I would actually take this back to that exhibition to a country song they did at 2013 Worlds, with costumes remarkably similar to Hallelujah). Yet Marina, their choreographer, is not responsible for this? If that was the message implicit in the program, which I believe it was, and Marina choreographed it or approved it, how is SHE not also part of the narrative that says DW have everything VM have?

      Even if VM couldn't find a coach that would be able to take down DW, I would have liked to have seen VM with a coach that at least wasn't actively working against them. Marina wasn't unaware of what was going on with USFS and the ISU. She's savvy. I don't blame her for continuing to take VM's money and use VM as her creative outlet, all the while knowing that DW would win and engaging in the chicanery to get them there, but I don't celebrate her for it either. I blame VM for not going elsewhere and not seeing that their coach was actively working against their interests to further the DW narratives. I also blame SC, because I get the feeling that they were part of the group that tried to convince VM everything was fine and if they stayed the course they'd win in Sochi.

      Before the attempts to put words into my mouth come...

      Do I believe SC is to blame? Hell yes! There's plenty of blame to go around. The fact that some of us put some blame on Marina doesn't mean we also don't have issues with how it was played by the federations, the ISU, and even VM.

      Do I believe Marina's coaching the last two years had value? Yes, but I believe that VM are insanely talented and creative and a lot of their work is self-directed. As has been discussed, VM have divine skating skills that other Igor/Marina teams never achieved. That's on them. I believe they could have done absolutely brilliant work with any other coach, and I don't necessarily believe Marina is the best ice dance coach in the world, or that VM could not excelled with another coach.

      Delete

    6. "Even if VM couldn't find a coach that would be able to take down DW, I would have liked to have seen VM with a coach that at least wasn't actively working against them. Marina wasn't unaware of what was going on with USFS and the ISU. She's savvy. I don't blame her for continuing to take VM's money and use VM as her creative outlet, all the while knowing that DW would win and engaging in the chicanery to get them there, but I don't celebrate her for it either. I blame VM for not going elsewhere and not seeing that their coach was actively working against their interests to further the DW narratives. I also blame SC, because I get the feeling that they were part of the group that tried to convince VM everything was fine and if they stayed the course they'd win in Sochi."

      And how has Marina actively worked against VM? I still have not had a clear description of that. I haven't seen any coach, no coach, in the US, push back against the DW narrative. None. I haven't even read of Krylova/Carmalengo pushing back against freaking Gilles & Poirier. Where is the outcry about Skate Canada pushing that team over a team like P/I (until last season, and then, only until worlds). This is a systemic issue. It's driven by the ISU. It's not about the morality of an individual coach. The only moral option is not to participate in the sport at this level. If you participate in the sport at this level, and attempt to work within the system, you are guilty. That's everybody. All of the skaters. ALL of the coaches. I look at the team that some want VM to have gone to instead (Krylova and Carmalengo) and I see radio silence from that team about P/I versus G&P. I still find the focus on Marina and letting Skate Canada be a sort of "of course" absolutely remarkable. Skate Canada's only freaking job this quad was to set up Virtue Moir for gold in Sochi (and Chan, but Chan was so insistent on coloring outside the margins, there was plenty of time for SC to see that gold for Chan was no given). Skate Canada instead spent its energies telling us how legit the apples and oranges rivalry between VM and DW was. Meantime, the USFSA association didn't say apples and oranges. The USFSA was busy telling us DW had acquired everything VM used to have and then some, and VM were plagued by injuries, mistakes, poor assessment of what might be a legal element, and inability to get the their levels even when they skated to get their levels.

      I am not "absolving" Marina, nor am I absolving VM. But clearly, if one wants to participate in Olympic-eligible figure skating, the only pure route is to NOT participate in Olympic eligible figure skating. As VM and Marina both did so, both are culpable but that means everybody in the sport is culpable, but apparently only Marina is guilty for working with the corrupt system - and in her case "working with" seems to be "not calling it out." There is no other way anybody has pointed out that constitutes 'actively working against VM'. As this is the conviction of some people, surely it can be told how she actively worked against VM. Nor has anybody identified a coach they think who would act other than as Marina acted. Who?

      Marina has given VM programs that work "as if" the sport were on the up and up. If the sport is on the up and up, nobody who sees VM skate to Marina's programs has any option but to score them ahead of D/W, and by a lot. They didn't. I've asked a bunch of times - how did Marina work against VM? Arctic Edge is an American training Center. They said bye bye to Igor as soon as the top teams expressed a preference for Marina. The second Marina decides to "take a stand" about DW she's gone. The skaters have the power at this level, not the coaches.

      I find it puzzling that some didn't consider the fact that coaches are only as powerful as the successful skaters who train with them.

      Delete
    7. IOW, there is the "assumption" that Marina must have actively worked against VM, but no examples. There are, however, examples about everybody else who actively worked against VM, including Skate Canada. I don't think it's so much to ask to request examples of Marina doing so, other than the fact that she gave DW programs that worked with the music but programs that still, to anybody scoring with integrity, showed them as much inferior to VM.

      Delete
    8. An example was just given - Marina choreographing an exhibition meant as a fuck you to Virtue Moir, to demonstrate how they had nothing DW couldn't have.

      I would take radio silence in a heartbeat. That's exactly what I'm saying. Even if the coach doesn't speak out about the rivals, it would have been fucking great NOT having the coach (nor Tessa for that matter) saying they are equally as good, judges preference, blah blah blah. Krylova was of course not saying that about GP. What a blessing that would have been, to once in a while have VM mentioned not in the same breath as DW, not as if they were twins, hatched from the same womb as juniors, training together and growing in perfect synch, as equally skilled skaters, but with their own "style." That was impossible with Marina. They should have left.

      SC is not just in there as an "of course." It doesn't happen to be the topic. I've written plenty about SC in the past, and this is where I'm saying there are straw men. Even though I was very explicit about mentioning that I did not absolve SC, here you are to say that I'm putting Marina on the hook at their expense. I'm not! I just don't think every post I make about Marina needs to come with a 5,000 word thesis about why SC was wrong in order to give me some kind of street cred to where I get the right to have an opinion about Marina.

      "The USFSA was busy telling us DW had acquired everything VM used to have and then some, and VM were plagued by injuries, mistakes, poor assessment of what might be a legal element, and inability to get the their levels even when they skated to get their levels."

      And Marina has pretty much said or implied every single one of those things as well. She was working right along with USFS, not independent of them. Marina was the oene that said VM had not yet given a good performance of Seasons and they would get the scores when it came. She was putting the blame for the low scores on VM, not on the judges. That's wrong. She didn't even go to her usual "it's up the judges, I have no say" mantra - she actively was putting it on VM's skating. That goes right to your last point.

      Delete
    9. That example (that Marina created the "fuck you" gala program, that it is her child) is seen as Marina's brainchild and somebody, and I don't know if it was you, decided, made up, that the USFSA didn't care what that program was because it was a stupid little gala program. There is no evidence the program was Marina's brainchild.

      With "Carmen", Marina, Virtue and Moir put together a well know, theatrical, accessible, dramatic program that had obvious archtypes, it was larger than life, it was aggressive and extremely athletic. It was an individual tour de force for Tessa Virtue. It demonstrated that no ice dancer could touch her.

      That program, some might argue, was a direct throw down to what DW had been presenting as their bailwick, their specialty. In any fair universe that program would have crushed DW's Olympic hopes on narrative alone. Marina didn't say to VM - let's not do Carmen. The warhorses are Davis White's area. Nope, in the run-up to the Olympics, the penultimate season, she gave them the warhorse of warhorses, and, with Jennifer Swan, filled it with a tour de force of skating and athleticism, and the program was stripped by Skate Canada and the ISU and Davis White elevated.

      Delete
    10. "Putting the blame on VM" is exactly what VM themselves do. It's saying VM are so good they can take hits and come back better. That as good as they were in this past competition, they can be even better. It goes to what Marina has said, that more is expected of a champion. Who is she talking about? The ISU. A double standard.

      This is all a political game that Marina is playing FOR VM, not against VM. You want more? They will give you more. She knows the scores are bullshit. She knows it's saying we want more from you. VM play the same game "We can give more. We're not near our best."

      Of course there's more going on, but this is the game as played in the public realm. Don't call out the judges, and why, because it IS corrupt and you don't want to be punished. Pretend, in public (and more on that in a moment), to accept the scores. Hope that the corruption is leading to a fair result in the end if VM come through with that slam dunk performance. They did, at the GPF, and that's when everybody knew the ISU wasn't just making it "hard" for VM, but that they really wouldn't win in Sochi. It confirmed what the Carmen season had told them.

      Up until then, both Marina and VM have played the game of, we're that good, and you want us to BE that good before you give us the scores- fine. They've always been that way and played it that way. Davis and White are skating their guts out (or pretending to) and getting high scores, VM are all - we're not nearly where we're going to be. You ain't seen nothin. And the judges seem to want to see us at our best, not vis a vis Davis White. The judged against themselves situation has been asked of Marina and addressed by her as well.

      Remember that in 2009 they got 97 at TEB and I think Davis White blew over a hundred for their first competition. It seems to me that this season, rather than disparaging VM, both Marina and VM were hoping it was the same charade of "we're not going to give VM the scores until they're at THEIR best, never mind how they rate vis a vis Davis White." And they had such pride that as good as they were at THIS competition, they could say, we're not nearly as good as we're going to be. That wasn't close to what we can do with this program.

      I clearly recall Scott talking about points left on the ice. Maybe he was working for the USFSA too.

      THIS, by the way, is where their Fed, not Marina, is supposed to step in and say, hey people, Virtue and Moir are supposed to be judged against the field, against Davis White. Furthermore, they're supposed to be judged for what they DID, not for what they CAN do. That's the Fed's job.

      Delete
    11. At the beginning of the Carmen season (2012-2013), Marina said that this program could get 200 points. It should have. It didn't. I disagree with Virtue Moir that they got a bird's eye view after they weren't allowed to win the GPF in 2014. I think the writing on the wall happened with Carmen. Carmen showed the world that every single thing Davis White's partisans thought Davis White owned on the ice, Virtue and Moir could crush.

      I completely disagree with the "evidence" you present that she was working in concert with the USFSA to undermine VM. VM's narrative about their performance of Seasons matched Marina's.

      What makes you decide this is Marina's narrative and not Virtue and Moir's narrative? Nobody answers that, ever. Can you answer that? How do you know that's HERS and not theirs? Because VM's p.r. for themselves makes so much sense, is so logical otherwise? I think there's far more evidence that Marina Zoueva is following the script Virtue and Moir gave her to account for their scores, not vice versa, and they're both working with what they think is the smartest way to play the game that seems rigged against them, or at least applying a double standard to them.

      Virtue and Moir have always been, raise the bar, we can clear it. We need to do more, we can do it. They have the sort of pride that says however hard you make it, we can take it and win. They don't say - we deserved higher scores. They say okay, you want more, we left some points, they'll be there next time.

      Do you forget their Virtue and Moir's own critique of their own performances of Seasons, or do you take that as insincere, but Marina's as sincere? Virtue and Moir don't whine. Whatever they (or Marina) believe privately, they pretend to take the scores and the feedback as on the level, and that they'll jump through all the hoops, and when they do, they'll win. That's how it worked prior to the past year and a half.

      As to what Marina said, you only know what she said in public (which is the same stuff Virtue Moir were saying in public). How do you know Marina didn't say something Virtue and Moir would have wanted her to say? How do you know that Marina said anything Virtue and Moir DIDN'T want her to say? Where, along the way, did Virtue and Moir say anything that contradicted what Marina was saying?

      They sang from the same playbook, but they're not running the p.r. game - Marina is? You know that they asked Marina to fight harder in public, but she didn't?

      Delete
    12. Speaking of in public, it seems to me you believe that what was said in public is all that was said. That politics only happens in the media and not in any other conversation. That what Marina tells us is what she tells the judges. She doesn't sound out the situation behind the scenes, right? What she says in public - she's shooting from the hip. It's not with an awareness of what she can and can't say, how she is able to contextualize things, basedon what's going on outside the spotlight, and Scott and Tessa don't operate with that awareness either. And in fact, despite the fact that Scott/Tessa and Marina all say the same things, there is no chance they're in agreement about what should be said and how something should be spun/presented.

      Delete
    13. I'm also thinking, and maybe I've understood you wrong, that it's okay for Virtue and Moir to say what they said, but Marina should have said something else (said what I believe their Federation should have said). I want to know upon what you're basing your assumption that Marina had permission from Virtue Moir to say anything else, or that they wished she'd said something else, or where you got the idea that she wouldn't have said something else if they'd requested it. Or how you know she wasn't willing to say other things, but they didn't want her to.

      I just want to know who you think is responsible for what she said - her or Virtue Moir, and what this is based upon. Because what she was saying, they were saying, and then they doubled down in the reality show, which, if memory serves, was not written, directed, and produced by Marina Zoueva.

      Delete
    14. That really boils it down for me (although I have more to say, surprise surprise).

      Where is the evidence that Marina said or didn't say anything Tessa and Scott didn't want her to say? Is the evidence WHAT she said, even though what she said closely tracked what they said themselves? Is it that to some people it's so on its face not what people wanted her to say, it's assumed there's no way Virtue and Moir either signed off on it, consulted with her beforehand, or directly instructed her how to answer? Because our interpretation of what she said, lacking the behind the scenes knowledge of conversations, personalities, politics, has to be correct?

      Delete
    15. "At the beginning of the Carmen season (2012-2013), Marina said that this program could get 200 points. "

      In combination with TWGO. Max score for a FD is 119.50.

      Delete
  7. "It's the opposite position that I find to be more unbelievable. That is, the idea that ALL of these groups were colluding toward DW and against VM (commentators, journalists, ISU), including VM's own federation, but *Marina* was not part of it whatsoever. "

    You can find it hard to believe, but it's still necessary to produce examples of where she did it. In the public realm, not in assumptions. As I recall, Marina said that Carmen plus VM's short program could potentially get 200 points. The ISU ended up laughing at that.

    What Marina did, was sin by omission. She didn't call out her own team (DW) and therefore get herself banished from Arctic Edge. I read people saying that Marina is powerful, but for some reason missing the obvious, that her power derives from having the top two teams. And then they expect her to USE the power that derives from her top two teams to "expose" one of those teams, while still retaining her power and her job. How does that work.

    How did she "actively" work against VM? By giving DW programs that worked with the music? That didn't give them material they couldn't do, and thus expose them? And the USFSA, which had something to say about "Phantom" which had something to say about "Le Strada" had nothing to say about what Marina put together for DW each season?

    It seems to me some people want Marina, ALONE, just Marina, not the skaters, not the other coaches in the system (look at Krylova and Carmelengo's silence about G&P), nobody else, just her, to use her power that in large part derives from coaching DW at a USFSA rink to expose DW, shoot her career in the foot, and go out in a blaze of glory. Any other scenario begs a whole lot of questions.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And I am not putting words in anyone's mouth when I say I find it absolutely remarkable, this assumption that a coach other than Marina would have acted differently than Marina. Based upon what? Please provide an example of an outspoken coach in Canada or in the U.S. whatever their nationality of origin, who was willing to call out what happened in Sochi. Or are people simply assuming that, with VM in their stable, this would have happened? Where are people calling out non-Russian corruption in this sport? I'm dying to know.

      Delete
    2. Please provide another example of a coach who said the doctor's did what they could so it must be a confidence issue, who could only muster "it must have been the dress" about a skater's mistakes, who said the skater hadn't yet skated the program the way it was meant to be skated, who had her other team do some disgusting display of faux-chemistry to basically mimick her other team, who choreographed exhibitions meant to show another skater could do her skater's exact program style just as well, who could only say "well you're getting closer" when her team skated perfectly and lost GPF...? That's working against, and furthering the narratives that USFS wants furthered. It's not assumptions or failure to cite examples. It may be you disagreeing with the examples given and that is fine, but you should really stop constantly saying that anyone who disagrees is making it up out of thin air and shoving words into our mouths (that we are saying Marina's sin is the sin of omission in calling out DW, when a post was written specifically explaining that's NOT the issue). We can interpret Marina's words and actions differently, without us making it all up and you being the only intelligent one in the room.

      I am quite certain that ANY other coach would not have talked VM down the way Marina has done, because they would have been their top team.

      Delete
    3. There's nothing Marina ever said about V/M that they didn't essentially say about themselves, yet V/M are forgiven but their coach is reviled because it's assumed the coach had more power to say something than her skaters. People need to stop running with that assumption.

      "...who could only muster "it must have been the dress" about a skater's mistakes..."

      This is my favorite of all the complaints about Marina Zoueva. She made that comment after the SD (yet some people argued her comments impacted the scores in that program, even though they were made after it was skated), and people flipped the fuck out. HOW DARE SHE? SHE'S DESTROYED THEM IN THE EYES OF THE JUDGES! THEY'RE GONNA LOSE NOW.

      This is what those people concentrated on. Instead of, oh...I don't know...how about being pissed as fuck that a coach's harmless comment would or could have any kind of impact on the judging to begin with? No? Not as much fun to lose one's mind about? Ah, guess not. So much easier to just lambast the coach, call her a bitch, or whatever.

      Delete
    4. Actually, the above post said "The fact that some of us put some blame on Marina doesn't mean we also don't have issues with how it was played by the federations, the ISU, and even VM."

      I didn't think people were saying her comment would make the judges marked them down in the FD, but that it revealed how little she cared about whether they won.

      But yes, of course everyone who doesn't like Marina is stupid and should be painted in the most diminishing light possible.

      Delete
    5. "I didn't think people were saying her comment would make the judges marked them down in the FD, but that it revealed how little she cared about whether they won."

      How little she cared? That's an even bigger assumption. Were those fans living in Marina's head at the time?

      Delete
    6. I don't care that some people have problems with certain coaches, but please for the love of God can everyone participate in a discussion about them without resorting to basing their assertions on assumption? It's like people don't realize they're killing their own arguments as they make them.

      Delete
    7. "But yes, of course everyone who doesn't like Marina is stupid and should be painted in the most diminishing light possible."

      The passive-aggressiveness is not doing you any favors.

      Delete
    8. *There's nothing Marina ever said about V/M that they didn't essentially say about themselves, yet V/M are forgiven but their coach is reviled because it's assumed the coach had more power to say something than her skaters. People need to stop running with that assumption. *

      Oh, let's not use common sense. "It must be the dress" is all Marina. Lord knows. Virtue and Moir have no say in their public narrative. For example, everything they said in their reality show that downgraded their skating, their confidence, and basically carried through anything Marina said about why Tessa had no confidence in Carmen was all dictated by Marina. There is no WAY that the public comments of Marina about Carmen were following a script dictated by Virtue and Moir. They're too meek.

      I have another question. Did Marina 'actively work' to dump the Shibs? Why didn't the Shibs parents get them to another coach post haste? One season they were nipping at DW's heels in TES, the next they can't beat Chock and Bates and don't make the silver at their nationals, let alone the podium at Worlds. It's amazing. Marina has three strong teams. DW, VM and the Shibs. The Shibs aren't as on the radar as DW, but safe to say, there's plenty of money in that family if they hire Corky Ballas to polish up the Shibs ballroom dancing. The Shibs family is throwing tons of money at their kids' skating, but the poor Shibutani seniors are just not savvy enough to perceive how Marina is "actively working" to undermine the Shibs, throw them under the bus so DW don't have anyone near their ballpark at home.

      It can't possibly be that Marina is working with three teams, doing her best for each team, and an ISU/USFSA/Skate Canada agenda to push DW to gold in Sochi takes place without her collaborating on that effort, undermining both the Shibs AND VM. She can't possibly just be doing her job. She has to be ACTIVELY participating in DW's unfair trajectory at the expense of her two other teams. It's simply not possible she continued to do the job she'd always done, and the ISU and the Feds did their job, so to speak, on the scores, disconnected from what she did with her teams. Impossible. She didn't speak up. She didn't speak up the way all the other coaches spoke up and did speak up (or would have spoken up). There's just SO much evidence out there for outspoken coaches willing to buck the narrative. Right? We're not assuming anything.

      oc

      Delete
  8. The entire ongoing argument about Marina Zoueva is a perfect example of what is wrong with figure skating. Everyone focuses on what they can see, or more importantly, what they *think* they're seeing, twist a shit ton of assumptions into the foundations of their arguments, and fire away.

    Meanwhile, the ISU continues to play everybody off each other like little drama-loving puppets.

    Arguing whether Zoueva hurt V/M or did not hurt them with her actions is pointless. It's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

    ReplyDelete
  9. So no one wants to talk about how Jessica is back in good old #Ilderton?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There was a Moirville wedding this weekend. I wonder if we're about to go old school with the shamming.

      Delete
    2. How do we know this about her?

      Independently, I've been wondering if KL decided no/they decided not to go that route... whether it was for personal reasons, or called out enough on here that the fans were starting to get wary and so they decided no in order to discredit the blog, or something else entirely.
      If we are repeating history here, JD does know the ropes. Easier to pull someone in who already knows the story and how it was done the last time, then assimilate someone new, right? I would think fans would see right through a "reconciliation" though, at this point. Or maybe not...

      It is possible she was just in town for the wedding of a mutual friend. I know, still suspect, but it's inevitable to cross paths every once in awhile. Guess it all depends on how it's known and presented.

      Delete
    3. It was Julie Medd's sister's wedding. It doesn't get any more Moirville than that.

      The VM fandom is filled with a lot of willfully blind and/or people who are morons when it comes to VM. I have full faith in the chronic stupidity that a lot of fans would buy a reconciliation sham.

      I know OC has speculated on Jess and Bryce not being able to quit each other. Bryce is coaching Dylan Moscovitch and his new partner. If I'm not mistaken, Jessica is also helping coaching Annie Barbare (someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this). If both Jess and Bryce are making the competition rounds as coached and there's something up with the two of them, then the #1 Jess handler is back in the picture and being that she does know the sham ropes, it could make her seem like a good choice to them. She's the devil they know, so to speak.

      Delete
    4. For anyone who isn't following Jessica on Instagram, here's the direct link to her post about being back in Ilderton http://instagram.com/p/p1zJeNN-1g/

      Jessica isn't working Annie Barabe these days. She moved to Toronto a few months ago and I think is maybe working with a center there?

      Delete
    5. Did Jessica have a lot of hearts and winks in her back in Ilderton announcement?

      Jessica and Bryce worked together for BOTB. It seems to me she's been re-setting her image as former Olympian, and Bryce is part of that. The career she wants to emphasize is with Bryce. That's her credential, that's where her career opportunities lie, with that brand. Same, no doubt, for him.

      Delete
    6. 10:47, while I've speculated that Jessica and Bryce can't quit each other, the more obvious reality for both of them is their brand is former Skate Canada Olympians and former Skate Canada pairs champions. As they've both seemed to shift into post-competitive careers, that's their calling card. Public appearances and other opportunities that come their way come their was easier as "Dube & Davison", whether they both attend/participate or whether it's "Jessica Dube - of Dube & Davison." Her career's over, and Bryce is part of her brand, not her singles skating, and not her year skating with Sebastien Wolfe. Jessica's been on social media doing throwbacks to her pairing with Bryce. He's got coaching, she's got her coaching thing in Toronto (I forgot what the program is called), but they can make themselves available for seminars, master classes, motivational speeches, stuff like that, and are more compelling as a team.

      I don't think we've seen the last of Kaitlyn Lawes, Scott Moir putative Sham GF #3. She has a busy travel/appearance schedule, which is probably one of the reasons she was chosen. From time to time, the events she's part of will be events he's part of. From time to time, it will be convenient for one of them to be around the other (photo wise) without an event as an excuse, but it will likely intersect with something else in their schedules.

      Delete
    7. OC 12:01
      I agree as far as Kaitlyn Lawes. I don't think all the Moirville interactions with Lawes right after Sochi were a coincidence. They have "Moirville sham" stamped all over them.

      What a coincidence Lawes went on a "sunny" vacation right after the Olympic celebration in Alberta, and she just happened to inform the world about it at the same time as VM's last tweet during that Olympic celebration. And whaddayaknow, another coincidence, it happened to be the same week as Scott's annual, traditional beach vacation. It's the sham girlfriend's calling card to make sure some public social media place knows about her *best vacation ever* in some sunny location and is aware that she *didn't want it to end.*
      (Yeah right. Rolleyes)

      Jessica living now in Toronto actually makes her less desirable as a sham gf. Toronto is too close and their paths could intersect too often. Lawes is further away, has a more publicly busy life (publicly separated from Moirville) and everything is more tidy and manageable in keeping up a pretend relationship.

      Delete
  10. Well, from the facebooks it's clear Moirville considers J a friend, or at least "close acquaintance". In real life it's not like there are any weird dynamics due to a break up with a favorite son. Why not be invited to a mutual friend's wedding.

    So does this mean Cassandra and Jessica can be facebook friends again? Bwahaha.

    I think the whole situation is hilarious. I can't wait to see what Moirville is up to with this , if anything. No way they can stage a reconciliation and not be ridiculous, not to mention moronic.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It seems to me it might be more about keeping Jessica under the tent.

      Delete
    2. Well well well. It looks like Jessica Dube has deleted the tweet with the picture from Ilderton.

      Trying not to be cynical here, but this feels like old times....tease and hide....show something ....then tease and hide again. It's also getting close to some VM expected public appearances, which are invariably surrounded with sham activity.

      Delete
    3. It's definitely old times:

      https://twitter.com/patrickchurchil/status/484100903881166848

      "Canada Day in MCO w @SemplySkiing and the pretty half of @Virtue_Moir. Safe travels Tessa and Ryan"

      They're allegedly coming back from a wedding in Monaco. This is planted on the heels of Jess being at a Moirville wedding that I'd bet was the wedding Scott was at this weekend.

      Delete
    4. Did we all just travel back in time to 2011???

      Delete
    5. So now the rumor is she's been hanging out in Europe with her ex for the past month?
      And technically we've got both KL and Jessica in the picture, just hanging around...
      Does this qualify as a triple-sham?
      (Anyone wanna tweet about Scott out on the town with Cassandra, or that Fedor and David were traipsing about Europe too?)

      Delete
    6. Anon @5.20 - you owe me a new keyboard :-D

      Delete
  11. It seems that way to me too...or possibly just that extended Moirville did spend a ton of time with Jessica during her sham years, so they may legitimately consider her a friend and stay in touch.

    ReplyDelete
  12. " in the run-up to the Olympics, the penultimate season, she gave them the warhorse of warhorses, and, with Jennifer Swan, filled it with a tour de force of skating and athleticism, and the program was stripped by Skate Canada and the ISU and Davis White elevated."

    ^^That, imo, is one of the main arguments against Marina conspiring to bring down VM. Someone else said in these comments that Marina was able to use VM as her creative outlet. Yes, in fact, that is a strong argument for VM staying with Marina. Together, the three of them and others Marina brought on board (like Swann) are unbeatable in their creative vision of what VM are capable of producing.

    It's not on Marina that the ISU decided to strip VM's magnificent programs and consistently score them below DW. That would have happened no matter who was coaching VM. Marina's no saint, no one disputes that, but choreographically, she is a genius, especially when given the talent of teams like GG and VM.

    I don't see the point of arguing Marina's character, whether good or bad, or her personal gain in the particular circumstances of her teams. It makes no difference to the outcome in this last quad. If VM had been somewhere else, Marina would have still had a mic stuck in her face and asked leading questions about DW that any coach on the planet would answer with the most positive spin possible. That's business in the ISU.

    VM tried hard to play nice. They never said anything negative, in word or gesture--no roll of the eyes or heavy sighs when asked about DW's scores, no blaming any bobble on anything outside of themselves. They've always just talked about what they want/need to improve when asked about "problems" in their performances. They downplayed themselves. Sure, it might have been mostly to prop up their sham--such things as the "struggling" narratives and Tessa's issues with self-confidence--but still, they never implied anything negative about DW, other teams or SC or the ISU. They *never* brought up Tessa's condition as an excuse for any bobbles. Never. They stayed within all that was politically correct in the ISU. No coach could have done anything different for them that would have changed the narratives. Like it's been pointed out, anything perceived as "negative" coming from Marina's words are things she was basically parroting from VM's own playbook.

    Hands down, VM had the best programs and packaging all quad, both SD and FD. That's on Marina. They were screwed over in the judging. That's on the ISU and SC, regardless of what type of person Marina is or any of her personal ambitions.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Not only did she give them Carmen, she said that that season VM could get 200 points! VM are defending world champions at this point. It's the penultimate season before the Olympics. Boy, what a shill for the USFSA she is. If I'm the USFSA, I'm thrilled. Marina didn't say: "I'm so happy to have Virtue and Moir to get my creative jollies, and then I have Davis White to win all the things." She said Virtue and Moir, with Carmen, could get 200 points.

    Of course, as things developed that season and the following season, they had to adjust their expectations and just flat out hope that what the ISU was wanting from Virtue and Moir was the perfect performance from VIRTUE AND MOIR, not a better performance vis a vis the field or vis a vis Davis White. The narrative then and the following season was "still not perfect, as perfect as it looked, we can do even more."

    That's a positive statement, btw, not a negative. I don't see how anyone spins that as a negative. Spin shouldn't be necessary, but it's the best possible spin, to say no matter what you saw us do today, we can do even better. Yeah, it was great but we left points on the ice.

    That's not supposed to set them up as these flawed, weak skaters. It's setting them up as "holy shit, they were amazing, and can you believe it, they can be much much better!" There are teams who can never, at their best, dream of a performance like that, and Virtue and Moir are all, "it was alright, but we understand we took hits here and there. The judges know what we can do and so do we." That's how champions talk.

    It appeared to me that as we got closer to Sochi, things looked darker, but the last stand, spinwise, that Marina and Virtue/Moir were hoping for, that it had come down to this, the ISU wasn't going to allow them to win unless they were perfect. It's okay, because Marina and Virtue and Moir knew they could be perfect. Looking at it that way, they didn't have their illusions shattered until the GPF 2014, when they were perfect and weren't allowed to defeat Davis White. That's when the ISU tipped their hand, although everybody still had to hope maybe it was a one-off and Sochi would have a different outcome, and everybody still maintained they could deliver the perfect the ISU expected of them, and when they did, they'd win.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "they didn't have their illusions shattered until the GPF 2014, when they were perfect and weren't allowed to defeat Davis White. That's when the ISU tipped their hand, although everybody still had to hope maybe it was a one-off and Sochi would have a different outcome, and everybody still maintained they could deliver the perfect the ISU expected of them, and when they did, they'd win."

      As a VM fan, I'm very proud of them in how they went out as champions. They knew they probably wouldn't win in Sochi, and yet, they continued to train hard after what must have been a devastating outcome at GPF in Dec., 2013.

      Their Olympic performances, SD and FD, were sublime. They were absolutely perfect. That's the heart of champions. They didn't whine or give up. Instead, they skated to the very best of their ability and rose above the corrupt conditions at Sochi. I personally wish that afterward they hadn't talked about Marina letting them down (no matter how true that might have felt to them) because it did nothing to bring attention to the real problem, which is the ISU's decision, pre-competitions, to give the gold to DW. Other than that, they stayed true to their high standards of expressing gratitude and not blaming others for the outcomes. Years from now, they are the ones who will continue to be the standard in icedance, not DW.

      Delete
    2. They also couldn't touch being let down by their Federation, which they were. Talk about actively working with the USFSA.

      But his family works inside Skate Canada, their business operates inside Skate Canada, and so he and Tessa just had to take the hit and pretend Skate Canada did well by them.

      Anybody who looked for some narrative from Skate Canada to counteract Davis White instead found Skate Canada promoting the legitimacy of Davis White, remaining silent when shade was thrown on VM after the 2013 4CCs, and silent when they were flat out robbed in the GPF. Silence everywhere, in fact. Where were the people who were squawking about Slotnikova versus Yuna Kim then? Where were the people with all the concern about the perception of the sport? People with, presumably, no business to protect.

      But in figure skating, everybody has business to protect. IMO, what happened with Davis White was HUGE. It wasn't some picayune little dirty deal. It was a systemic heist that got done at the highest level, and that highest level had a wide reach. It was radioactive. It wasn't about what the judges were doing in a given competition. It was about who told the judges to do what they did. That, IMO, suggests another reason the scores were spun and nobody could call them out. Everybody knew it wasn't ABOUT the judges, who were not, unless they all forgot everything they knew about skating, judging in good faith OR doing little deals among themselves. The judges were scoring in accordance with the wishes of the higher ups, which would mean their own positions and participation seemed to depend upon doing as told. It came from above. I can't imagine VM didn't suspect this, or Marina too.

      Nothing else explains the systematic scoring patterns for both Virtue Moir and Davis White despite what actually happened on the ice. The habitual yanking away of a showcase VM element component or move at the eleventh hour also had to be directed from above.

      David Dore is the ISU VP. He was recently inducted into the Skate Canada Hall of Fame, with copious tweets about #greatguy and #thankyou. He had help, but there's no way he's not the guy. How else does this get done?

      Delete
    3. I believe it was Virtue Moir, and not Marina, although I'll check the credits, who, in their reality show, spun a terrific performance (the first outing of their short program in 2013-2014) where they got 76 points, as a disappointing performance. Virtue and Moir may want to think that the judges (but not actually the judges - more on that further down) are simply holding them to a higher standard, because they hold themselves to a higher standard as well.

      Based on scoring patterns of the past quad, here's what it looks like to me: Davis White's trajectory to the top was storyboarded. They're a team on par with Virtue Moir, nipping at their heels and maybe pushing past them. They're gold medal contenders. They're not "seen" to make mistakes (as Beverly Smith put it). To enable that storyline, an imperfect (visible mistake) performance by Virtue and Moir can't be allowed to outscore Davis White, and certainly can't be allowed to defeat Davis White. Because the story is that Davis and White are amazing. And in fact, if Virtue and Moir are too good too early in the season, maybe it's a good idea to strip a level or two from their outing. Make em work to overtake Davis White, because Davis White are genius, Virtue Moir have to be even better than that. You don't beat Davis White straight out of the gate.

      Reality is that any summer competition by Virtue and Moir should have crushed any given Worlds performance by Davis White, but that's reality. What happened in ice dance this past quad was a story, not the reality on ice.

      Per the story, and, sadly, the most optimistic way Marina/Virtue and Moir could have possibly looked at the situation given the storyboard that was in place, they would only be allowed to win if they were perfect. Perfect as in GPF 2014, perfect as in Sochi.

      The best case scenario that Virtue Moir (and their coach) may have hoped is is that those who created the storyboard - and these are ISU officials and Feds, not individual judging panels - who had artificially elevated Davis and White to the top, needed that elevation validated. For that to be validated, an imperfect Virtue and Moir couldn't outscore them (in their separate competitions) or head to head. But maybe, everybody hoped, a perfect Virtue and Moir would be allowed to.

      To me, the patterns say that's what's going on, what went on. The judges were pawns. Calling out judges is pointless if the judges are scoring according to a scenario devised by the higher ups, and if the judges feel their job security depends upon playing ball, which of course it does. Looking at it that way, everything said by Marina and Virtue Moir is, that perfect performance is coming. And we're hoping like hell that's what this is about. If they called anything out, they'd know damn well it wasn't individual judging panels they were calling out, but David freaking Dore, Benoit Lavoie, and the whole ISU mafia. WE might not know, but the ISU mafia would know they were being called out, and I wouldn't see that ending well for the ones doing the calling out.

      And I believe all of this played into Virtue and Moir's champion mentality, which was nobody had higher expectations of them than they had for themselves, and has hard as you make it, it's never too hard for them, because they're that good.

      And you know, they proved that. They showed it. They were right, as far as what they could deliver.

      Delete
    4. This whole game fit into Virtue and Moir's self-image wheelhouse, as frustrating as it may have been along the way. What's a great performance for a very good dance team is a disappointing performance for Virtue and Moir. That's how they play it, that's how they see themselves, because they're the best ever.

      The narrative was taken from them, and not by Marina, but by the ISU, to say, they were not just not THEIR best, but not THE best. That's not what Virtue Moir, nor, I believe, what Marina, ever meant when they critiqued a particular performance or assured us we hadn't seen the perfect performance yet.

      I want to say something about the fuck you gala performance, and the only way I can think of to communicate it at the moment is to do one of those "If it were me" exercises. I'm not putting myself in their place, I'm just trying to make a point. Here goes. Suppose I teach singing. And I've got a brilliant pupil and a mediocre pupil. The brilliant pupil can sing anything, but is particularly identified with a certain genre, and certain coloratura runs. (I'm going to pretend singing is a competitive sport.) The mediocre singer is servicable, and has a repertoire that they can execute comfortably and has a certain amount of popular appeal. The mediocre singer is wealthy, connected, and as politics would have it, wins all the things vis a vis the prodigy singer. The mediocrity's powerful connections would like the mediocre singer to, as an encore to their in-the-bag big win, sing from the same genre as the prodigy, and do some of the same effects, and although they don't spell it out, it's clearly to say "I'm just as good."

      I take the score and cut all the hard stuff out of it, keep in a few easy flourishes that nod to what the prodigy does, and the mediocre singer goes out and does their pseudo version of operatic awesomeness. You know what I'm thinking? "Go ahead honey, you aren't fooling anybody worth being fooled." You know what *I* think the prodigy is thinking? Same thing. Never in a million years would the prodigy ever say "Don't let her/him sing that." because even though the mediocre singer may intend an insult in singing it, it's a bigger insult to pretend to be threatened by them coming out and trying to sing like that. You go right ahead, mediocre singer. And you go right ahead, Davis White.

      Delete
    5. Your "if it were me" exercise example is why I've never bothered to be offended if/when Zoueva incorporates choreographic moves/aspects seen in V/M's programs into the programs of others. It's why when people say "OMG, what is Marina doing?!?" I'm always like "uh, her job as a choreographer?"

      No team owns any specific choreography or elements (even "signature" moves), so there's that reason. But beyond that, what makes Zoueva's choreography for V/M brilliant is that it's THEM executing it with their abilities and style. It's like you argued above - the program package isn't there to convince the judges or the audience of anything, it is there to highlight what the skaters can do with their blades. That's what Zoueva does better than anyone else. It's why she's such a creative genius.

      I don't give a fuck that D/W skated a program with similar flourishes and very basic iterations of some of V/M's past moves, nor do I find that offensive in any way. To be offended, the package would have to be more important to me than what a team can do with that choreography at the blade level, and that's simply not the case.

      Delete
    6. @1:30, If it had been a different kind of occasion, I would agree with you. However, DW's Rach gala was not about skating a classical-lyrical program with similar choreographic flourishes as VM due to having the same choreographer. This was a giant F***U to VM. On the world stage, DW were saying they can do anything better than VM, including lyrical/romantic. They can co-opt what the public consider to be VM's signature style and be better, after all *they* (DW) are the Olympic champions, not VM. This gala was intentional in its presentation, including costumes. These people planned this prior to the Olympics, specifically for the Olympic gala. This is no accident.

      The person was right who said in the comments' section of another entry that it was comparable to VM planning a gala program based on Bollywood music, to be skated at the Vancouver Olympics, and also featuring similar costumes to DW's Bollywood program. No one would interpret that in any other way but a diss to DW. It's the same with this Rach program.

      Of course no one owns a style of music or anything else. But in this specific case, DW were deliberately spitting in VM's face. IMO it goes along with all the other narratives they appropriated and copied from VM. It was the logical sequence to all of DW's PR leading up to Sochi.

      Delete
    7. @4:20, I'm not sure what you mean by V/M's "signature style." Their signature style is stellar, unmatched bladework, speed, power, and finesse. D/W didn't co-opt that in the Rachmaninoff program because they can't do what V/M do on the ice, period. The package - on its face - does not matter. What does matter is how skaters take that package and use it to display their skating talent.

      I also have no idea where the assertions are coming from that the creation of that exhibition was a "deliberate" fuck you of any kind. Just because you're interpreting as such doesn't mean that was the actual reason for the creation of the program.

      Delete
    8. "The person was right who said in the comments' section of another entry that it was comparable to VM planning a gala program based on Bollywood music, to be skated at the Vancouver Olympics, and also featuring similar costumes to DW's Bollywood program. No one would interpret that in any other way but a diss to DW. It's the same with this Rach program."

      Meryl Davis was in a white dress and Charlie White was in a shirt and pants not unlike pieces they've both worn before. They utilized a lyrical form of movement vocabulary that is rather broadly defined with a few choreographic movements recycled by Zoueva (which as you've agreed with me about, are owned by no one team), skated to a slower romantic piece.

      I think to see that as a deliberate fuck you to V/M, you have to *want* to see it that way. Because what I see is a lyrical program package not unlike what we've seen from countless other teams over the past quad.

      Delete
    9. 4:37
      I think "signature style" is meant to refer to the public's perception of VM. The comment does say, "what the public considers" to be their style.

      The general skating fans do attribute the romantic-lyrical style to VM, deserved or not.

      Delete
    10. "I'm not sure what you mean by V/M's "signature style." Their signature style is stellar, unmatched bladework, speed, power, and finesse. D/W didn't co-opt that in the Rachmaninoff program because they can't do what V/M do on the ice, period. The package - on its face - does not matter. What does matter is how skaters take that package and use it to display their skating talent. "

      First, as much as the package does not and should not matter in the scoring, people, even those who value skating skills very very highly, do and are allowed to enjoy programs on another artistic level, whether you like it or relate to it or not. I don't think that any choreo/music/style should be off limits, but there are iconic choreographic moments that people associate with V/M, and in the context of them being crowned the new Olympic champions, the similarity is offputting at least.

      Second, D/W's whole PR agenda the last few years is based on the perception/narrative of what the two teams have or don't have. Of fucking course, they didn't skate with any similarity to V/M. But D/W's WHOLE PR MESSAGE the last two seasons have been - we as a team have everything V/M have. Since no one ever said a peep about D/W's skating not being as good as V/M's, guess what that meant? That they were saying they had the chemistry and they had the gracefulness - the only thing that the media, the casual fans and the wider skating community allowed to be theirs. Those things might not be V/M's most important qualities when you consider the sport* - it IS what everyone use to say V/M had and D/W didn't, until the last two years.

      *Considering that a small amount of CoP points are meant to be awarded for things like lines, skating together as a unit and projecting a relationship of some kind, these things ARE part of V/M's incredible package of skills as well.

      Delete
  14. What do you think about tessa being on Monaco with her ex Ryan semple? Apparently she went to Europe with him right after the Olympic party in Calgary

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 9:18
      Besides the tweet that says they were at a wedding in Monaco and traveling back to Canada together, where did you get any information about traveling together right after the Calgary party? Is that a known fact or assumption?

      Delete
    2. pretty sure mco refers to an airport in orlando not monaco

      case 432432 of people here not knowing anything and then jumping to conclusions and making crap up

      Delete
    3. Look at the guy's other tweets, he's in Monaco. Quite the coincidence to have both Jessica and Semple resurface around the same time....

      Delete
    4. Why you think they were on a wedding?

      Delete
    5. Heh he's not so ex anymore if she spends a month long europe vacation with him

      Delete
    6. Why are people asuming she's spent a month with him? Or a month in Europe? How does,'not been Tweeted about for a month' equal 'left the country for a month'? Anyway, we all know Semple is not her ex, we all know Tessa's true status. You have to laugh at Moirville and their lack of orginality - mind you as OC would say, they know we know, so why would they bother coming up with something new?

      Delete
  15. Well it appears that Semple's friend is from the Ottawa area and no doubt one of those that went to one of Ottawa's elite private schools etc...Semple is well connected through family friends // skiing connections and is known to be able to crash in Europe, California etc for a period of time on a whim...and of course he stills loves his cars and Formula 1 racing...and you have to laugh at his friend's tweet - making it appear that Tessa is some sort of trophy wife....why would you tweet about it rather than send a text message...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Exactly - plus he's following a fake/fan VM account? Why would a close friend do that - surely they know you're not on Twitter? Semple hasn't tweeted in about 3 weeks either. I'm off to grab my popcorn....

      Delete
    2. Anon here at 2:29 am - you know what's a bit bizarre - is that with all the new people that Tessa had come in contact with over the last year - from photoshoots, the reality show, new sponsorships, athletes including hockey players, etc or close friends, her brothers/sister that would want to hook her up with someone etc...and she is with Semple? If Cynthia Phaneuf can nab an NHLer....

      Delete
    3. But new people would have to be clued in - so much easier to keep the same personnel around. OT, but I see our least favourite new Tumblr site is pedalling the DP nonsense – I think it must be senseandspite because they’ve started laying into Tessa and her umpteen abortions. Funny that, she keeps getting rid of babies but keeps Pelletier’s, who happens to be born in early 2011. Which causes her sister to leave the country…..

      Delete
    4. So, it looks like the report of T being at a wedding in Monaco was jumping to conclusions. The guy who tweeted mentions a wedding in a previous tweet, from a couple days ago. Not to say for sure T and R were not at a wedding, but it's not a fact based on the one tweet from his friend.

      Also, the piggybacking to assert Tessa's been traveling around Europe since right after being at the Olympic party in Calgary is just that. Piggybacking. Lies made up by fans.

      Like it's been said. VM are scheduled for some public appearances very soon. It makes them desperate to throw out some sham. Can people please see the ridiculous side of things instead of having meltdowns and lying on behalf of VM?

      Delete
    5. The basic point remains, whether the location was supposed to be Monaco or an airport in Florida, it's a piece of sham meant to indicate Tessa was with an "ex-boyfriend".

      "Also, the piggybacking to assert Tessa's been traveling around Europe since right after being at the Olympic party in Calgary is just that. Piggybacking. Lies made up by fans."

      A group of fans decided on their own that Tessa went to vacation in Europe after the Calgary even and now these same fans believe, or seem to believe, that Tessa really was in Europe.

      "Can people please see the ridiculous side of things instead of having meltdowns and lying on behalf of VM?"

      There is so much ridiculous and repeat behavior going on here, as usual, that you'd think by now these people would be able to see through it.

      Delete
    6. A girl tweeted, the day after Calgary, that Tessa was in the same lounge of the airport...and the girl was going in Europe so...

      Delete
    7. It doesn't matter who says on twitter they saw whatever or what photographs exist or will pop up of Virtue and Moir and any other friends of their's going wherever.

      Ryan Semple is not Tessa Virtue's ex-boyfriend, Jessica Dube, Cassandra whatsername are not Scott Moir's ex-girlfriends.

      Virtue and Moir are married. That's the truth.

      Delete
    8. I know some of this has already been said, but the "in Europe for the past month" rumor stems from them saying they were going on vacation, online fans stating they know she went to Europe directly after the Calgary parade (based on flight schedules and tweets, apparently...), the presumption that if she went then and is there now, then she must have stayed, and because of the last tweet, has been there with Ryan. Also, since he hasn't tweeted since around that time, I think that's furthering the assumption.

      Now, she may very well have gone over there in the beginning of June. Since they said they were going on vacation and disappeared for a bit, it's a possibility. And she may or may not have stayed there this entire time (which I don't think is the case for other reasons), or if I'm really conspiracy theorizing, she may or may not have even been there at all yesterday. Actually kinda leaning towards this, atm. If they DID go there, it remains to be seen who all they went with; Ryan, KL, Jessica, half of Canada, the Beatles...
      Aside: Yes, KL and Scott reappeared around the same time, but if fans really want something to speculate about, there's plenty to go with on tweets/FB there... just sayin'.

      As someone already pointed out, re the wedding, fans are assuming Tessa and Ryan were at the wedding together (REALLY, a wedding in Monaco?????) based solely on the fact that they were hanging out a few days later with this guy who had recently gone to one. Again, I wouldn't be surprised to find out they both DID attend this wedding and were hanging out, as they most likely have mutual friends. Maybe they were both in the wedding, or heck, she helped a friend plan this wedding, given her history. ;)

      In terms of the actual tweet itself... it's oh so easy to put something out there that implies so much, but doesn't actually implicate anything other than some friends hanging out together, and that Ryan and Tessa both happen to be traveling. It doesn't actually say they're traveling together. Like any good sham, the way that it's worded (very carefully, I'm sure), leaves everything open to interpretation. Plus, it's public-bonus! Especially the last part, "Safe travel Tessa and Ryan" again gives the implication they are traveling together, at the very least back to Canada after the wedding. It doesn't preclude the idea that they have been traveling together up until this point, nor that they won't continue to travel together around Europe, or whatever the hell they're supposed to be doing over there.
      The first part is a typical tweet, but that last part is completely unnecessary for a friend to put there. That's the kind of thing you text about if you want to say it, or say as you're leaving. Also, odd to me that this "friend" is following multiple fake twitter accounts for VM and Tessa.

      Obviously, they've felt the need to employ old resources for whatever reason, (upcoming appearances, pregnancy, fans not buying KL, familiarity, etc.) I still think it's funny that Jessica and Ryan are back in the picture at the same time. Maybe because those were the most believable to the fans? Yes, I believe KL is still on the table, as well. And if we're getting technical, (and by that I mean in the, "it's all actually fake", sort of way), there has never been a definite confirmation of a break-up from Cassandra either. It just seems like they're aligning all the ducks they can get in a row (pun totally intended), to use however they choose to, in the very near future.


      Delete
    9. "The first part is a typical tweet, but that last part is completely unnecessary for a friend to put there. That's the kind of thing you text about if you want to say it, or say as you're leaving."

      I love that detail of "safe travels." Sooo typical of this sham, where friends and family put things on public forums that are ott in their attempt at sounding natural, and at the same time trying hard to create "couplehood" implications. Stuff that would be personally texted, emailed, said in a phone call, etc.

      Those who have been around will remember the time Jessica sent Scott a personal message ("tell him I love him, I'm thinking of him, I miss him, blah blah blah...") during Worlds 2011, via Annie Barabe's public fb wall. Looool. All the while she has access to his private fb, plus, one supposes, to his phone.

      Or the time Alma Moir posted on Scott's fan facebook wall (not his private facebook) that she hoped Scott "and all his girls" had arrived safely to TEB. Of course the implication being Jessica and Tessa had both traveled with Scott. Since when did Alma need to send her son good wishes via a public wall, when she has his personal phone number and of course access to his private social media accounts?

      These people think they're being so clever. They're morons.

      Delete
    10. "plus he's following a fake/fan VM account? Why would a close friend do that - surely they know you're not on Twitter?"

      He seems to have very recently started following these fake VM accounts, just in time to post his delight at hanging out with "Tessa and Ryan." Bwahahahaha.
      Oh yeah, this smells fake from all across the Atlantic Ocean. .

      Delete
  16. Please Oc make a post about this rerun of 2011/2012...maybe you can just copy and paste from the old posts ;)

    ReplyDelete
  17. I think the next post is going to be a sham post, although really, my guess is Kaitlyn Lawes is still the sham gf. Remember that Cassandra Hilborn was so low key for awhile the blog even had a banner making fun of it. Right after that - BAM, the profile pic of Scott's hands plucking at her skirt, the smooch photo, and then the reality show. (The funny thing about the reality show was that by putting the sham in 3D and upping the ante with the canoodling, it came off even more fake than the low key profile pictures). I think with Kaitlyn, things will accelerate, although what the pattern will be now that VM aren't competing in 2014, and haven't shared if they intend to compete the back half of the season is anybody's guess.

    MY guess is even if they end up retiring, they won't announce it til close to 2018, just as skaters from 2010 didn't get around to admitting they were no longer in the game until 2014 was upon us.

    oc

    ReplyDelete
  18. The diq pic can be found on readditing.com among thousands of other penis selfies. In case anyone was worried its his actual dick

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Lol I commend you for your research.

      Delete
    2. oh noo the anon never intended to post his actual dick lol

      Delete
    3. thank you, based anon 9:42

      Delete
    4. I hope you clear your search history 9:42 ;-)

      Delete
  19. um can anyone explain why tessa and scott arent part of the cast? http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?92640-Shall-We-Dance-on-Ice-%28Bloomington-IL-show%29-Davis-White-Chmerkovskiy-Burgess-amp-more! the cast is basically the same as the one in 2010 including marina as a choreographer so wth???

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So they can spend more time with the new baby? So that Scott doesn't have to bodily interject himself between his wife and his former coach? So that they don't have to look at Ms Davis' smug face? They're doing their Xmas shopping that day? They don't like Bloomington? Who knows.

      Delete
    2. And/also TPTB don't want VM in the same show as DW so the audience isn't sitting there making the comparison because it's obvious as black and white which team is far better than the other.

      Delete
    3. ^i had a feeling the USFSA was behind this. i guess they fear v/m will steal the spotlight from d/w just like they did in the russian exhibition.

      Delete
    4. Bodily interject himself between his wife and his former coach? I love how that joke is based on a complete assumption in first place.

      Odds are, V/M weren't invited to skate in this show because D/W are the headliners and producers don't want a team seen as comparable/known to be superior to them taking away that spotlight, OR it's because the show is filming right around the time V/M are having their second baby.

      Delete
    5. ^^ The joke is based on what is fast (and ridiculously) becoming gospel to the VM fandom - that Marina is the Wicked Witch of the West - I certainly don't assume anything about the relationship between Marina, Tessa and Scott.

      Delete
    6. Wait, you mean less than a handful of two or three minute videos of public interactions between Tessa Virtue and Marina Zoueva haven't convinced you Tessa hates Marina's guts now?

      And you call yourself a fan?!?!?! Pfft.

      Delete
    7. Don't you know fans know what Marina is thinking because of her eyes? Yep, Marina's eyes say she hates VM.

      Fans know everything.

      Hahahahaha

      Delete
    8. Fans live inside Tessa, Scott and Marina's brains - they know all.

      Delete
    9. In all seriousness, VM choosing to clear out their stuff on the one week Marina isn't there does make you wonder what 's going on between them.

      Delete
    10. There are plenty of other reasons why V/M may have chosen to pack up their stuff and leave Arctic Edge that particular week, including the possibility that because of their summer touring schedule that week was the best time to go back and happened to coincide with Zoueva not being there because of her own summer schedule.

      But where's the drama in that? It's much more fun to assert Tessa Virtue wants to kill her former coach for supposedly stabbing them in the back by saying things they'd never ever ever ever ever ever ever said about themselves. Ever.

      Delete
    11. And they wouldn't want to say goodbye to Marina in person? I know they could come visit later but they wouldn't want to have their longtime coach there on the day they officially left Arctic Edge? It's not like they had a very busy schedule at the time.

      You're right that there could be an alternate explanation but it still seems strange to me. And if their relationship is strained, I would expect it to be more about issues in training than anything she might have said to the media, with Marina perhaps being angry at VM for their comments about her in Sochi. If that's the case, it's a sad way to end a long and fruitful collaboration, and it certainly doesn't mean Marina is the sole one to blame, as that's rarely how it works in relationships.

      I don't think there's a need to be defensive about Marina, some people think she's the devil incarnate, some people think she shoulders some of the blame for how things turned out, some people think she's the world's greatest coach and choreographer and has done nothing wrong (plus other positions in between). Even if you think one group is hopelessly wrong or you feel they're insulting Marina, so what? All public figures have to deal with some of that stuff, there will always be fans who talk confidently about issues they know very little about. But it goes both ways: just as I can't know for sure if their relationship is strained, you can't be sure that it isn't. Why the passionate defense of someone you don't even know? If it's not true, it's not true and Marina will keep on going just the same.

      Delete
    12. I'm not trying to insult anyone, I am simply confused at the anger directed at fans whose claims put Marina in a bad light. Why does it matter so much?

      Delete
    13. Good points 6:13 and 6:18. There was recently a post about DW that basically said that there's no room for any type of criticism of them; even acknowledging a minor flaw opens the door and in the desire to shut that door we get bombarded with messages about how perfect they are and how they're the best ever and they get showered with 10s.

      I see the same applying to Marina from some commenters. Lots of people like Marina and Marina's work for VM, but it seems to be only a couple of stubborn fans here that refuse to even consider a single thing that puts her in a negative light. There's never a capitulation that "yeah, that wasn't the best thing for Marina to say/do at that particular moment, but I still think the body of work she's done with VM made their partnership worthwhile" or if the person honestly does feel that Marina has done all the right things, never a comment like "I can understand why people felt Marina had a conflict of interest, but I don't because.." It's always this race to rage about how great a coach and choreographer Marina is, and how unreasonable is anyone who perceives any of her words and actions in any negative light. At times it feels to me like overcompensation, but I don't want to assume. I do think a lot of stupid arguments and statements about Marina abound at places like FSU, and people are lumping that with any criticism of Marina, which IMO is not justified.

      Delete
    14. if their relationship is strained, i wouldnt be surprised if the media caused it to be that way.

      Delete
    15. "And they wouldn't want to say goodbye to Marina in person? I know they could come visit later but they wouldn't want to have their longtime coach there on the day they officially left Arctic Edge? It's not like they had a very busy schedule at the time."

      Say goodbye to her? What exactly does that mean? Cleaning out their lockers at Arctic Edge is the only place they could ever say "goodbye?" Furthermore, who is to say V/M won't work with Zoueva again in the future. If that's the case, why would they have to say "goodbye" at all?

      The point being made isn't "let's jump on top of everyone who criticizes Marina Zoueva!" The point being made is "so much of the criticism of her is based on assumptions in the first place." What's being criticized is the tendency of so many to take a bunch of assumptions and masquerade them as facts or as the basis of their assertions of what kind of relationship she had in the past (or currently has) with her skaters, including V/M.

      Delete
    16. 2:20 PM is wise. That's the logic I employ as well. No assumptions.

      Delete
    17. Here's how the assumptions work in this case:

      1. V/M say in a post-Sochi press conference that this season they felt that at times Zoueva wasn't as "behind" them as she'd been in seasons past. They clarified this to say what they meant by "not behind them" was her not going to their National Championships for the first time ever (because they ran concurrently with US Nats) or marching with them in the Olympic opening ceremony. They talked about some crossed-wires regarding their programs. When asked if they could go back and change anything, they said no. They would not. They assert they still have great appreciation for her and the work she's done with them.

      2. Following those comments, some V/M fans watch a few video clips of V/M before the medal ceremony in Sochi and determine those clips prove Tessa Virtue now hates Zoueva.

      3. V/M go to Arctic Edge to clean out their lockers/say goodbye to the people working there. Fans assume they do this on that particular day so V/M can avoid seeing Zoueva. Those fans have no idea if V/M had said farewell to Zoueva prior to that point in time, or weren't planning on saying goodbye to her at all since they might see her at some point in the near future or work with her again. They just decided that she wasn't at Arctic Edge that day, but V/M were, so that = the V/M-Zoueva professional relationship is strained and over.

      Are the fans who decide these things also the ones who complain about FSU making things up and running with it as gospel? Because if so = irony.

      Delete
    18. 9:11 - There's a difference between stating something as fact and explaining how you think things may have gone. This site is full of theories about Moirville, Marina, the ISU, judges, VM, etc. and that's fine, if we had to stick to only facts, there wouldn't be much to discuss. These theories are often presented as facts but then there’s a natural tendency in people to think that if they’re convinced it’s true, then it is. What bothers me is that some people are shaming others for theories that present an imperfect Marina or an imperfect relationship between her and VM, essentially claiming that there's no way that could ever be the case. And yet you don't know Marina, you don't know VM, for all you know these fans are right. Sure, they're dealing with assumptions, but so are you. For example, you assume cleaning out their lockers wouldn’t have a symbolic value for VM (a time to say goodbye to AE as their training base, and Marina as their coach), I assume the opposite, you (I think?) assume VM will probably work with Marina again, I think it’s unlikely, at least in the short term. And so on. None of these assumptions are clearly right or wrong, seeing as there’s no way we can know for sure.

      9:31 - your description of the post-Sochi press conference spins the comments as positively as possible, to the point where I wonder if we watched the same thing. Among other things, VM did not clarify that the "not behind them" comment referred only to Nationals and the opening ceremony. That's your interpretation, not fact, and I honestly don't know how you can get that from what they said, both at the PC and in later interviews. I have a very different interpretation, obviously, and that's the point, none of us are in their heads and know exactly what they were thinking. My general reading is that they have conflicting feelings about Marina: they love her and have a great appreciation for what she's done for them but, at the same time, they felt betrayed and abandoned by her this season, they think she loves them and puts a lot of herself in their choreography but they had that nagging feeling that she wanted DW to win this time around. Again, it’s my interpretation, my assumption, but it’s no less objective than yours.

      Basically what I’m trying to say is that I wish we could discuss issues relating to Marina without feeling like there’s only one side allowed, only one side that’s objective and rational while the others are haters, emotion-based and, well, idiots. Being a fan of someone will predispose you to see him or her in the best light possible, being a hater, the worst. We see what we want to see. There are plenty of fans who will latch on to anything to confirm that Marina is to blame for everything, just as there are fans who will do the same to prove that Marina has never done anything wrong. Neither side is immune to emotional thinking, no matter how long the paragraphs or complex the words; no matter how skilled they are at debating, neither side has a monopoly on the truth.

      Delete
    19. "For example, you assume cleaning out their lockers wouldn’t have a symbolic value for VM (a time to say goodbye to AE as their training base, and Marina as their coach), I assume the opposite, you (I think?) assume VM will probably work with Marina again, I think it’s unlikely, at least in the short term. And so on. None of these assumptions are clearly right or wrong, seeing as there’s no way we can know for sure."

      Nowhere in those comments was it assumed that cleaning out lockers would *not* have a symbolic value for V/M or that V/M *will* probably work with Zoueva again. If you want to criticize people for spinning others' comments to further your argument, stop doing it yourself.

      Delete
  20. I'm going to take a wild guess that it isn't this blog they're talking about: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrkXVKmCMAALeYD.jpg:large

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No not this blog but the vulgar one about Tessa and Scott.

      Delete
    2. honestly i'd doubt their agent will do anything. they havent done anything about this blog anyway. also tumblr is pretty useless as well.

      Delete
  21. Even more irritating than fresh sham crap are all the tumbler sites blathering on about Tessa and Scott's relationship. Based on tweets or sightings they construct whole imaginary frameworks and encourage their readers to stop expecting VM to get together, as it can *clearly* be seen that VM are dating others, or not interested in each other, or some such stupid drivel.

    They like to mock those who say Tessa and Scott are indeed married, that they're messing with the fans. And yet, those same people turn around and deliver such a truckload of nonsense, as if they were besties with VM. Are all VM tumblers run by 13-year-olds? They're absurd, delivering lectures on VM, as if they had just gotten off the phone with them and received all the latest, most personal information straight from them.
    *Rolleyes*

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. what else do you expect? Only a couple of chosen ones (lol) knows about the supposed marriage which is kinda hard to believe without any proof or info, trust me. So they act like all the fans in thousands of other fandoms do. They base their opinions on sightings. You really want to mock them for that? For not believing a theory that has no proof? And don't tell me january 2011 pics are proof,please

      P.S. for most people this blog is as credible as the diq blog you know. OC is just more cautuous, the doesn't post any pics at all so nobody can find them and tell this blog is full of crap

      Delete
    2. ***cautious, omg

      Delete
    3. Pretty sure this blog has never made it a mission to convince anyone of the marriage and child, it's only stated it as a fact when doing so was considered important to some other point being made. Such as, V/M are lying about being platonic and that lying includes spamming fans with photos and comments of fake significant others. The blogger has always said "I know it's true. Whether you believe it is true or not doesn't make it less true." The blogger is right about that.

      The reason people know Tessa Virtue was pregnant and is married to Scott is because they KNOW from first-hand knowledge of some kind, not because they deduced such a thing to be true from photographs. And it's not a "couple of chosen ones (lol)" who know, it's a shit ton of people. If you aren't included in that shit ton of people, oh well. Doesn't change the fact that V/M being married with a child is true.

      The problem with the fans/people who believe the lies V/M are telling them is that they aren't just basing their opinions on "sightings." They're basing their opinions on dumbass, bullshit pieces of spam that have literally been repeated for every single fucking fake significant other for years. The "sham" follows clear patterns that reveal its fakery. So much so that I'm pretty sure a five year old could figure out how bogus it all is in half an hour.

      The fans who buy the bullshit V/M are selling them are either total dumbfucks from the moron reservoir or they're deliberately wearing blinders because they like the drama that comes from believing whatever stupid narratives about V/M and their significant others they've concocted in their heads. Either way, they don't seem like big fans of using logic or common sense of any kind.

      Delete
    4. lol I'm a part of the fandom for 6 years and I'm a dumbfuck with no logic apparently. The pattern are not so clear heh? you're rushing from KLawes to Jess and back in a minute

      Also this shit ton of people only inhabit the blog so it can easily be just same 2-3 people

      Delete
    5. Lots of us who know firsthand that they're married parents don't only inhabit the blog. We post at other figure skating forums, on youtube, twitter, etc. We just don't talk about it because it will only cause the same kind of headaches there as it does here - people asking for proof we can't give, and calling *us* the crazies.

      With that said I realize I'm privileged to have the kind of sources that could give me this information, and I would be confused as fuck without it, so I hesitate to call the fans who create different narratives drama queens, idiots, lacking in logic, etc.

      I do agree with this person that said that to an outsider, this blog looks just as specious as the so-called diq blog. This blog's intention isn't to provide proof. It takes the knowledge that OC has and then analyzes things in the public domain (I'm including the facebooks, if fans have been added as followers) through the lens of what OC knows. It's not going to provide proof or start rumors because it's about analysis. However to someone who doesn't have the same insider knowledge, it can certainly appear to be a theory based on things from the public domain.

      It's not, and I really wish there were a way to explain that to some of the fans who are having meltdowns, even though I can't present them with a marriage certificate or a photo. I really hate to see people who seem to be pained over the latest development. But I don't blame them, I blame VM. VM are laying out bait and I don't blame the victims for taking it seeing as how that's exactly what VM/Moirville want and everything is done deliberately to stoke those flames.

      IMO many of these fans know the truth deep down (and some of them have even claimed to believe the blog in the past, but "changed their minds), but the only time they admit it to themselves is when VM are being shippy and cozy, a la Sochi. Once their usual patterns resume, fans go into denial because they don't want to confront the truth about how ugly VM's actions are. It's understandable, but for those of you who five months ago were willing to believe Cassandra was a fake girlfriend, why now are you not willing to believe that Kaitlyn Lawes or Jessica Dube could be the latest sham girlfriends? Is it because VM have not been seen together? Please don't just go by what is public. We don't see 99% of VM's lives. Just because they planted a lot of tweets about VM being seen at the gas station and at yoga and around town and then stopped and then you only saw Scott photos for a while, does NOT mean Tessa wasn't around. It's what they want to infer. It's deliberately done that way. Tessa could have been with him the entire time.

      Delete
    6. what they want *you to infer.

      Delete
    7. I've talked to some people who are convinced VM are married just like you, 9:00. What I find interesting is these people've just HEARD it from someone they find trustworthy. No one ever said they saw something with their eyes, no one. Everyone's just heard it, which can simply be a disinformation. You've also heard it from someone, right, anon? And this can have roots in this blog, you know

      Delete
    8. Great post anon @ 9:00. Well said.
      Also, I'm still not sold T was even over there. But all they have to do is publicize some "new" picture of T and Ryan from anywhere/anytime in the future, and that will "legitimize" this tweet. Sigh.

      Delete
    9. I haven't spoken to a single person who says they know it directly from VM or because they've seen the child. Every single person knows it from some anonymous source. I honestly think there is disinformation being spread around by someone and because it's spread through journalists etc, it's considered to be fact.

      Delete
    10. But if I told you that I know it directly, then since I'm anonymous to you, you are hearing it from an anonymous source. But my source isn't anonymous to me, I know them very well, so I believe what they are saying is true. Since you can't view the information through my experiences and my trust in that person, I can't accurately convey the information to you in a way that will make you believe it. Since I don't have hard evidence, I understand why you don't believe me.

      Delete
    11. My point is that the person who told you could very well believe that what they're saying is true. It doesn't matter how much you trust that person, you're still trusting second-hand information that I think is wrong.

      Delete
    12. yes, 9.33, I feel the same way. A very old and vastly spread disinformation

      Delete
    13. A source with a source with a source with a source with a source. No matter how much you trust the first one it still can be a disinformation. Also, from what I've heard, all of the sources are journalists so 9.33 pretty much got it

      Delete
    14. 10:25
      Is that how you read a newspaper? You put on a skeptic-hat and decide it's impossible to believe 99% of the days' news because it's second-hand information? Not all journalists are on-site re. what they're reporting, a great deal is based on quotes from other sources. How do you handle that? Surely it must be doubted because they got things second-hand?

      You choose not to believe, in spite of a number of "second-hand" reports, in addition, I may add, to all the other public domain material presented as evidence that supports that "second-hand" information. That's fine, you can believe what you want. But don't pretend it's *impossible* to believe something simply because you yourself don't have a photo or some other definitive proof. If what's been said so far is not enough for you, fine. For me, it's sufficient to have these people's "second-hand" information plus all the other public domain things that convince me. That doesn't make me a shipper (I don't care who these people date) nor an idiot.

      Delete
    15. 10.56 All these reports are identical, I repeat, identical like siamese twins. 'I know it from a person I trust who works as a journalist'. Did anyone ever hear something else? NO

      Delete
    16. What public domain things? Interview clips of them acting lovey dovey? Video of them acting on the ice? None of that is proof of anything but vm having chemistry and being good actors. Let me guess you also think that Meryl and Maks are in love?

      Delete
    17. 11:12 - You're saying you've been able to talk with *all* the people on these public sites (or who post here on this blog) who say VM are together, and *all* of them have confirmed their source is a journalist? How lucky for you they've revealed their source to you. All I ever see is that they will not reveal how they know. So everyone's source is ONE source? The same one for all of them?

      Delete
    18. People never reveal things like that in a comment section, I talked to a few on facebook and twitter. These people are convinced that what they know is true but their stories are suspiciously familiar. And, no, apparently these are different journalists but the situation makes me agree with anon 9.33. It's a disinformation spread through journalists

      Delete
    19. Disinformation being spread by more than one journalist. And the motive is....not to mention what it would do to these journalists' reputation if it were known they were secretly spreading lies. It's essential for journalists to have a reputation of trustworthiness, but in this particular case they're all willing to spread disinformation. Come again?

      You're not making any sense, 11:39.

      Delete
    20. 11.58 they're sharing with friends and relatives not the media so what reputation are you talking about? No one knows their names, of course

      OC is so right for not revealing the source. He/she knows he/she'll go down as soon as he/she does that

      Delete
    21. "I haven't spoken to a single person who says they know it directly from VM or because they've seen the child."

      Okay, but who you have or have not spoken to has no bearing on what is true and is not true.

      "Every single person knows it from some anonymous source."

      Wrong. Stop confusing who you have spoken to with "every single person."

      "I honestly think there is disinformation being spread around by someone and because it's spread through journalists etc, it's considered to be fact."

      Go ahead and honestly think what you want, but it's not disinformation that Virtue and Moir are married with a child.

      Delete
    22. Please. As if journalists are going around spreading lies about VM but it's fine, it's off the record so naturally, what they say is lies and of course no one will ever rat them out. I'm sure that's how journalists operate.

      You're more interested in defending nameless journalists in their supposed lies than believing what they've said (if it's true journalists have said VM are together). Why is that?

      Delete
  22. What is the tumblr site that the girl on twitter, wants shut down?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. http://scottmoirfckedmyfriend.tumblr.com/

      its hilarious how they're grasping at straws rn. they've been caught red handed.

      Delete
    2. Anon 10:12
      What's even more hilarious is now on that tumbler it's become a pissing match between the person making up the slut posts and fans who believe every word out of VM's mouths. Lies being defended by other lies. Bahahahaha.

      Delete
    3. im p. sure that tumblr user is sending themselves asks

      Delete
  23. I'm not clear on what she's trying to shut down, as the twitter I saw talked about the blog and a tumblr, and one remark said the tumblr was worse. The tumblr isn't a blog. Maybe they're using the words interchangeably.

    IF the person on twitter is talking about this blog, and patting herselfon the back, she is an example of fan myopia. I understand skepticism, but this fan apparently recently came upon the blog and decided to "report it" to an entity connected to Scott and Tessa, and of course, once it is brought to Scott and Tessa's attention, or their agent's attention, something will be done, because the blog is three and a half years old and not a single fan, especially when it started, made the same move. Does this fan honestly believe they're the first fan to fall over themselves rushing the existence of this blog to "Scott and Tessa's" attention, in the apparent belief that public figures are entitled to control everyone else's narrative about them in addition to putting out their own?

    These people never read google's TOS, never research what is necessary to take down a blog, they just think the blog is "negative" and so of course when it reach's the attention of the celebrities, it'll be vanished.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Don't flatter yourself, OC. They're talking about the Tumblr account because for some reason those are referred to as blogs. That account now seems to be saying that Scott had sex with Kaetlyn Osmond so if their agent does care they might want to complain to Tumblr.

      Delete
    2. Yes, tumblr is considered a microblogging platform and the accounts can be referred to as blogs.

      VM don't seem to have adequate representation so even though the tumblr is libelous, I doubt they'd care. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Moirville got a huge kick out of it. Scott sticking his dick into things = gold to them.

      If anything they'll have better luck sending it to Kaetlyn Osmond's people or the agents of anyone else mentioned.

      Delete
    3. I was talking about the tumblr one and not this one. I have nothing against your blog and sorry about the confusion between blog and tumblr.

      Delete
  24. 11:12, you're making shit up. "All of them, I repeat, all of them have said their source works as a journalist." You say. Seriously. You come here challenging what the blog is saying, but you yourself are using lies to make your point.

    No such thing. The blog has never said, and many other people have never said.

    "IMO many of these fans know the truth deep down (and some of them have even claimed to believe the blog in the past, but "changed their minds), but the only time they admit it to themselves is when VM are being shippy and cozy, a la Sochi. Once their usual patterns resume, fans go into denial because they don't want to confront the truth about how ugly VM's actions are."

    I don't know if fans go into denial because they don't want to confront the truth about how ugly VM's actions are. I think when VM are all over each other fans are happy to have all the gifs and moments, and hope they keep on coming. And hope that maybe it means VM are, if not coming clean, giving up the sham, and fans will get to see VM be affectionate with each other all the time now, in public. But, as always happens, as soon as the competition is over, here comes sham stuff. MY theory is fans start believing the sham simply because they don't want what's going on with VM to be out of sight. The fandom, a lot of it, is fueled by community discussion, theory-sharing, etc., based on what's happening in front of fans. Once Tessa and Scott are done canoodling at a given competition, what's put in front of fans is sham. If fans recognize that what is in front of them is fake, then they have to realize that Tessa and Scott's lives are actually hidden from them, and they're not getting any front row seat into their relationship. It's all hidden. They don't know Tessa and Scott, don't know about their lives, and the material that fuels the communities (which is not skating, but relationship stuff) dries up. My guess is that's it. VM fans feed off what's in the public domain. The reality is, none of Tessa and Scott's real private lives are available on the internet public domains or in the media. None of it. It's hidden. In the 3D world, it's not hidden. In the virtual world, which is where most fandoms exist, the fandom can't see anything. They'd rather believe that what they see reflects something real than deal with the fact that they don't know what Scott and Tessa's lives are like off ice (apart from being married and having a child). I think most fans could completely handle Scott and Tessa being "mean" or manipulative, they just don't like the fact that they themselves don't know stuff, and Scott and Tessa keep all the real stuff hiddden from them. What would the community talk about then? I mean, the sham provides new information all the time, even if it's mostly recycling. What "new" information has the blog provided other than the basic facts? Scott and Tessa, still married, still parents. I think for fan communities that create tumblrs and talk among themselves, ONLY knowing that they're married and still parents, but not knowing anything else, isn't satisfying and can't support the community ties that bind. OTOH, taking what's in public as legit and speculating off that keeps the discussion going. The "theories" about how people who know Scott and Tessa are married only know third-hand from people who are either scamming them or have been misdirected themselves is people who want to believe certain things, and it's driven by that. People think that reality can be altered by what they WANT to be real. It's bizarre. There was the person here who said they didn't want to believe VM lied, so how about if THIS is the truth instead (some scenario about Scott and Tessa having a wild night of passion resulting in a child).

    ReplyDelete
  25. Kaitlyn Lawes looking forward to a fun night with friends and family. Should we be expecting a Scott Moir appearance as the official boyfriend?
    https://twitter.com/LKLawes/status/484708044102578176

    ReplyDelete


  26. When did people start believing that reality depends upon what they, personally, wish were true, or are most comfortable with? It's not just VM fans; I see it everywhere. Not long ago, when Dylan Farrow went public with being molested by Woody Allen, there were actual entertainment bloggers, credentialed ones, who worked their distress out loud. Here was the dilemma - they worshipped Woody Allen's movies. Very important in their lives. At the same time, they didn't want to come off as a non-feminist or someone who disbelieved somebody who said they were abused. SO, concluded one blogger, how about this - both Woody and Dylan believe they're telling the truth!

    Jesus Christ. Because reality is all about that entertainment journalist's psychological comfort. She didn't want to give up her love of Woody Allen's movies (somehow she thought the Dylan situation would compel her to do so), and she didn't want to lose her self-image as a feminist and somebody who was compassionate towards victims of child abuse, so she personally designed a scenario that let her have it both ways and "decided" that was reality. No recongition that somebody else's reality isn't something an outsider can decide for their personal comfort. It is what it is. I have my personal belief about Dylan Farrow/Woody, but that aside, the fact is that the reality of that situation has absolutely nothing to do with the wishes of those who want the reality to be inside their comfort zone. The solipsism of so much discourse today is unbelieveable.

    Scott and Tessa are married. Nobody's discomfort with that reality is going to change that they're married and have a child. Nobody's "preference" about reality is going to alter reality according to personal preference. Yes, of course people are entitled to not believe that they are, to think the blog is lying or crazy or whatever they want to believe. OTOH, there are people who are simply creating theories because they don't WANT it to be true, because it's outside their comfort zone, and I think that's bizarre. Reality isn't about what makes you happy, or your discussion community, or your wish that some celebrity's life were taking place more in public so you can see it and enjoy it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Haha, I know exactly which article you mean. The tone really is similar to some of the stuff that gets posted here.

      Delete
    2. You cannot be serious. As if you're any different from the writer you're making fun of. I have no doubt that your "personal belief" regarding Woody Allen is just as credible/informed as the theories you spout here -- I'm not even talking "married and a baby" but all of the bs about T/S being sociopaths, evil incarnate, bad parents, etc.

      Delete
    3. 2:11
      A child molester is a whole different league than the speculations that happen on this blog. Point being, people are willing to excuse inexcusable behavior when it happens to be about someone they only want to see in a good light.

      From the POV of this blog's premise being correct (married and a child), then in fact many things about VM and Moirville's actions leave themselves open to speculation (hello, married Scott canoodling on national TV with a woman not his wife; Tessa constantly narrating their platonic/separate FAKE stories). The question of motive can't help being theorized and discussed when these guys (and their friends and family) behave in ways that come across manipulative, mocking, insincere and frankly, nuts. Maybe they're not that way in real life, but their *actions* come across that way.

      When you have public figures whose stories are constantly contradictory and inconsistent, what do you expect? Are fans supposed to just sit back and take all their lies and pretend they don't see the inconsistencies? So this blog offers a place to talk about that. The day VM come clean and stop lying and treating the fans like idiots will go a long way toward ending the speculations.

      Delete
  27. speaking of lifts, who wants to hear a joke?
    "I agree. They say you can iron a shirt on Tessa's back, which is nice in the step sequences but she has less flexibility in the spins and lifts than she used to have, and certainly less than Meryl Davis. :)"

    jesus how far up meryl's ass do you have to be to say shit like this

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Less flexibility than MERYL DAVIS?!?!?!

      AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

      Delete
    2. Oh geez, where is that from, 10:31?

      Delete
    3. the hellhole that is known as the youtube comment section https://plus.google.com/b/111534297858783422144/104360239754205963351/posts/YpDd9SXqXU3

      idk does this link work??

      Delete