Papadakis and Cizeron are innovative, ground-breaking, all modern things, at least that's what their fans claim. Reinventing the wheel whenever they take the ice with their very very very very modern way of ice dancing.
Here's 57 year-old Sergei Ponomarenko, whose son Anthony is an ice dancer. Sergei won the 1992 Olympic gold medal in ice dance (in Albertville) with his partner/spouse, Marina Klimova.
 |
| The Artiste today(ish). So his gold medal-winning days are awhile back. |
Papadakis & Cizeron's so-called breakthrough program was based on Le Parc, a 1990s "Modern" ballet that is more representational than dynamic, just what you want for an ice dance program. Looking at old Klimova/Ponomarenko, I'm wondering if PC's team went back to the 1990s for more than just Le Parc. But it just kills me that this lyrical arms stuff is seen by ANYBODY as avant garde (which, google tells me, means new, experimental. It means unusual ideas, particularly in the arts). Skating aside, in all of figure skating, including ice dance, lyrical ballet-ish is common as mud and has been for over thirty years. One reason ice dance established specific elements for the free, IMO, was that, since the 1980s, lyrical ballet was taking the "discipline", at least where the free dance was concerned, into amorphous mush, where the sport piece of it could hardly be located. There was later some encouragement, for one hot second, to bring ballroom back to the free for a needed re-set before ice dance found itself sliding into complete irrelevancy. Particularly as the compulsory dance (required pattern) portion of the competition was being cut. The compulsories are where these 1990s ice dancers like Klimova Ponomorenko established their "ice DANCE" bona fides before venting their inner Isadora Duncan, or borrowing myopically (but innovatively!) from indigineous dance traditions in the free. So no matter what this show program looks like (or their 1992 Olympic championship program looks like), we know Klimova and Ponomorenko had to skate in closed hold and show mastery of a number of pattern dances/steps and footwork, in order to place themselves into contention before the free. Which is not something Papadakis & Cizeron have ever had to do.
****
 |
| Wanted to do this gif of their gala Goose. The bad ass way she puts her arm behind her head, and the even badder ass way she steps off without an assist. You can see Scott drop the mic with his facial expression (that's how I choose to read it), even if it looks so easy many people just don't get it. |
Followed the gala on Goldenskate, then watched videos later. When P/C skated, one fan said "The GLIDE." They are on two feet 90% of that skate. Scott and Tessa's exhibition was lift-centric and position change-centric in lifts, yet they were on their edges far more.
Some speculation on the boards as to who can possibly challenge PC in the next quad. (Provided VM retire, and please please please.) Well, good luck, ice dance. The reaction to them, generally and IMO, this entire competition, was a yawn outside their fan base. If they win everything from now til 2022 nobody's going to be watching. I don't know if I can stand another "actual skaters versus non-skaters" rivalry - in fact, I pretty much couldn't stand it this last go round. Maybe they'll come up with another non-skating team to go against PC's non-skating. Going by the judges, the US has made its bid in the deal room, but it probably won't be the Shibs.
P.S. - a truly wonderful fan cam of Virtue and Moir's fd. Most fan cams flatten out the performance, but this one is visceral:
So apparently not only french commentator but also guy from czech eurosport mentioned that V/M are married... and he stated that Tatiana Tarasova said so. Wtf.
ReplyDeleteHa. Nobody will take that and run, which just goes to show the points being made in the earlier comments section. Not until Scott and Tessa give the green light.
Delete9:44 Where did the czech commentator say this? I'm czech and I watched SD, FD and the gala and he didn't say anything like this. He only said (during gala) that they are very protective about their personal lives.
Delete11:34 Me again. Sorry I noticed that you said Czech Eurosport, which I didn't watch. I watched Czech Television (CT) with commentators Miroslav Langer and Tomáš Verner (former figure skater). Maybe on Eurosport there is another commentator. Do you have a link to this czech Eurosport version?
Delete11:42 Me again. So I watched again the SD, FD and the gala with czech commentary by Miroslav Langer. To clarify, it's from the czech sport channel CT Sport, the main czech sport television channel which is part of the Czech Television (CT). I translated his comments to english.
DeleteAfter the gala skate by V/M (Long Time Running), he said: "Very bright, if not the brightest stars of figure skating competitions at the Olympic Games. Canada's flag-bearers at the opening ceremony. Here they showed another emotional dance as in the free dance, which was a passionate tango from the Moulin Rouge musical, after which returned the questions from reporters about how it is with their relationship. And the answer to the journalists was that that's none of their business. Tessa and Scott are very careful to protect their privacy, and the secret that surrounds them creates such magical charm of this couple."
Thank you for the translation.
Deletehttps://twitter.com/LilienStastna/status/967891245828886529
DeleteWell, I didn't try to translate the twitter link (in the tweet linked above), to see if that's what was said, but even if he said they were married, he got the rest wrong. They haven't been married since last year; they've been married since October 2009.
Deleteoc
If I'm not mistaken, Elena Ilinykh also said something in the FD like "if they don't get married after this, what a waste," which is interesting as she surely knows the truth. A Russian native speaker would have to confirm this, though.
DeleteYes, Elena really said so, but I don't think it confirms anything. She was praising v/m the whole tournament and admited that she's been a fan of their skating since childhood. It's only logical she wants them to be together-forever-and-bla-bla like many fans do.
DeleteBut she has to know they are already together. She's known them since she was a little kid. There's no way she doesn't know.
Delete4:42 Wow. So I watched the czech Eurosport version and couldn't believe what I just heard. I think it's kind of unprofessional to say this gossip information during the TV commentary of figure skating gala. Anyway, I translated his comments word by word from czech to english (my notes are in brackets).
DeleteHe said: "... she sent an email. The information comes from Russian television from commentator Tatiana Tarasova that Tessa and Scott are married. Tatiana Tarasova, who we remember from Ostrava (Czech city), where she needed a slightly wider chair when she sat on the commentary post next to me and František Pechar. So it's stated (is said) that since last year they are married. As I got (the information) from Slovakia and thanks to Gabriela Lukačovičová, I pass this on. And those looks from the partners in a number of cases, especially on Tessa's side (from Tessa), suggested a lot."
After they skated, he said: "Here danced husband and wife Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir, Canadian couple which has rewritten history and now has five Olympic Medals."
It's not gossip that they're married, it's a fact. However, they have been married since October 2009, not since last year, as Tarasova knows. As should everybody else the commentator claims he got the info from. It was no secret - to say the least - in the skating world.
Deleteoc
Tessa and Scott have their own reasons for not sending out a news release about the particulars of their relationship. They don’t owe us any explanations.
DeleteThat said, I believe they may have been married since 2007. In YouTube videos, in 2007 and 2008, Tessa wears a traditional, gold wedding band. It’s easily seen, sometimes in performance, sometimes in the K&C. In the K&C at Worlds 2008 (FD), you can clearly see it, and they have a beautiful, long hug at the end.
In 2009, sometimes the ring appears on the 3rd finger, right hand. I haven’t seen a wedding ring, nor any other, between 2010 and 2013 but from 2014 on, she has been wearing a ring on her second finger, left hand.
There was a huge difference in the audience responses to V/M and P/C
ReplyDeleteV/M blew the roof off and P/C was a lukewarm meh. V/M and the Shibutani's were the most mentioned on social media. P/C didn't rate. I don't know if the P/C farce can be sustained for another 4 years. Their deficiencies are just too great. Unless the judges just don't give a damn about the sport and have anointed P/C for the next Olympics. They have already stated they are staying in. Oy Vey
As for Klimova/Ponomeranko they were just glorious to watch when they were competing.
Yes, they had good foundational skating skills. Excellent. Their free dance style is not my cup of tea, but you can't deny the glide and the stroking. Still, I think this is what P/C are going for. One is faux, the other is actually doing it, but how can anyone look at Klimova Ponomarenko and think P/C are doing something new or different? Hell, a Klimova Ponomarenko image is one of the graphics adorning the landing page on fsuniverse.net. The only innovative part of what P/C do was already done by Davis White - strip the programs of actual skating and two foot and get your partner off the ice or down onto it as much as possible. So they're not even innovative in fakery.
DeleteLeslie Jones was a PERFECT AVATAR of the casual fan here. She tweeted about the gala with commentary on two themes: "were we supposed to think anyone else deserved to win? They're INSANELY GOOD" and "don't care what anyone says they are absolutely a couple."
DeleteTruly a highlight but also such a great reminder of the many things, including the skating itself, that are obvious to those who aren't overthinking any of it or embedded in the world of full-time ice dance fandom.
Yep. Outside the world of ice dance fandom, people can see for themselves.
DeleteThe 1992 FD of KP's was one of the programs that made me a lifelong fan of ice dance. That was a completely different era in ice dance. Ice dance has undeniably advanced by magnitudes in difficulty in the over quarter century since then. When I do go back and rewatch the older stuff, I enjoy the nostalgia, but the programs seem really empty. The Olympic Channel reaired a bunch of the FDs/FSs from previous Olympics, starting with 2002 when NBC first start broadcasting the winter Olympics after CBS had had them for awhile. Not just in ice dance, but in every single discipline, the jump between the pre-IJS programs and the post-IJS programs is incredible. There are plenty of people out there who try to spin it that IJS took away the creativity, but this trip down memory lane just highlighted that there were a lot more super empty programs back then. (As an aside, during the pairs FS for Torino, one of the commentators said towards the end of Jess and Bryce's program, as Jess did what Jess did, that they'd held it together for the SP and 2/3's of the long. She chalked it up to inexperience, but in hindsight, what a metaphor for their and Jess's whole career.)
DeleteBack in that old era though, by the time the FDs came, those teams had already been through at least 2 compulsory dances (I can't remember when they went from 3 to 2) and an OSP or OD in which they had to prove they could skate. The Golden Waltz, one of the most difficult of the compulsory patterns, is based on an old KP program. If PC were forced to time travel back to that era and skate the compulsories and an OSP or OD, they'd have been buried. On the other hand, if you were to go to the early 80's, time traveled forward with young KP, and trained them in the IJS system, they're one of the teams that could have excelled and probably therefore have faced the same treatment as VM, et al. (Speaking of, I adore CP, and Anthony is, IMO, the best junior male ice dancer we've seen since Scott. I fear between the talent and having his famous parents, the hurdle in seniors is going to be a high one for them.)
Yes, when you look back, the ice dance free dances look really empty. What was the criteria? I just now went back and looked at 1999's showdown between Krylova Ovsyannikov versus the vastly more popular Aassina Peizerat at the 1999 World Championships. I expected to change my mind in thinking the former had probably deserved to win, because the last time I saw it my impression was it was very frenetic, and so probably there was a lot of toe picking and running, and not so much skating. But I looked back, and while he does some running, there actually is quite a lot of skating. It's not some precursor to Davis White. For the era, it's skated, and while A&P have the most divine, enormous glide, she probably spent just a little too much time off her feet in that program. I think the following year they made sure to have her skates on the ice more often, twizzling her little head off, and they won.
DeleteP/C couldn't get past the first round of compulsories. That's what I always remember when I look at some of the silliness of the old school free dances - they had to do the real thing in a series of compulsories. Not just one pattern dance that is now - what? Half a pattern in one program? They had to go round and round that ice perimeter for a set period of time, absolutely testing how well they could sustain, the cleanliness of their edges, their mastery of the steps, and the appropriate rhythm. The programs were not as athletic as they've become. But athleticism in figure skating is supposed to test the figure skating. Yes, I have good skills, but they can also stand up to the challenge of this lift. The athletic progression in ice dance loses its point when it no longer tests the skating but dispenses with it.
Haven't seen CP, will check him out.
That's funny about Jessica. I read a fairly recent interview with her, from this month, where she says she's going to quit the cruise ships after her next contract. That's more maturity than I had pegged her for having, and her reasons are reasonable - you can't build a family on the cruise ships, and she has a boyfriend, so. So she did 2-3 years of it and got to go around the world and skate. But my point is, when she talks about skating, it is clear that it's still her identity, and she still feels weird about it, and a need to do it. And yet when she competed it was always that 2/3's and never full out except for the Worlds competition after the face slash. That was it. That was the one time she trained her ass off along with Bryce and delivered about as best she could in an international competition. I guess I don't completely understand loving something, being good at it, and having it be who you are, but also kind of half assing or coasting. She spent a good 4/5ths of her career getting the benefit of the doubt, when it was obvious long before she went with Sebastien Wolfe that she was just not interested in going beyond what she already did fairly well, even as she regressed.
oc
I have no idea if there was any real criteria for the FD at that time. I'd be curious to see a rulebook from that era. I'm fairly certain that I remember it being mentioned that the OSP/ODs had requirements.
DeleteYes, they're down to a 1/2 pattern in the SD now.
As a starting point, this is CP's SD from one of their junior gp events earlier in the season.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRT6BhLG27M
Blues SD from last season:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJi481nup5U
Waltz/Polka SD from the 15-16 season, when Anthony was just 14:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpWxb-v9lwk
It is more impressive for a teenage boy to be accomplished in the SD. The SD is what exposes you.
Eastern European Folk FD from the 15-16 season, when Anthony was only 14:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz6V4h-ZAAY
They are with Igor right now, and he's given them lyrical FDs in the Gadbois-style the last couple of seasons. The choreography has showcased them about the same way as lyrical Igor choreography showcases anyone. As a result, neither FD is a great example of either one's ability. I think the end of the road is nearing in terms of how far he can take them. There's really only one person I trust to fully develop this team.
Oh my goodness. Well isn't he just charming as hell, a lovely skater and looks to be a terrific partner. I definitely see the Scott Moir in him, and the nice part is it appears to come naturally - he's not mimicking or borrowing. She seems slightly more tentative than he is, at least in the performing aspect.
DeleteI always wanted to make this observation about Scott and Tessa - it's always said in dance that the man is the frame and the woman the flower. If Tessa Virtue isn't the frame in every hold they do, I don't know what a frame looks like. A lot of it is her literal frame - those t-square shoulders and her immaculate dancer's posture - and I always think Scott takes from her in that regard. Here, Anthony is absolutely the frame - reminds me a little bit if Alex Shibutani and Scott Moir had a kid. :)
Maybe an off-topic, but do you think that Maia and Alex Shibutani will be a part of the next Dancing with the Stars US cast? My personal opinion is that there is a very high possibility they will do it unless they are doing ice shows, the DWTS starts at the end of March and ends at the end of May. The DTWS season 26 will be an all-athletes version. There are some "cast rumours" and their names are in almost every article (https://hiddenremote.com/2018/02/17/dancing-with-the-stars-season-26-cast-7-winter-olympics-2018-standouts-who-should-join-dwts-athlete-edition/). Also they have worked before on the choreography with some DWTS pros (Jenna Johnson) and I spotted them in the DTWS show audience a number of times over the years (DWTS is my guilty pleasure and I admit that, I watch the show regularly). They said in this article (http://www.justjaredjr.com/2018/02/23/maia-alex-shibutani-chime-in-on-dwts-possibilities/) “If they wanted us on, I think we would consider it,” Alex shared with EW recently. Maia adds, “It would be really different to compete against each other.” “We’ve never had to do that before in a serious way,” Alex says. “It would be interesting and potentially awkward. But it would be really fun. I think we would both take it really seriously.”
ReplyDeleteThey were also doing work with Corky Ballas on their short dances as far back as 2011. Those connections are looooong. I hope they do it, I think ice dance deserves better reps on there than Meryl and Charlie.
DeleteOh, they would do a wonderful job, and after Meryl Davis's debacle ice dance needs better reps.
ReplyDeleteMy one caveat is they won't be judged fairly. Scott Moir once said he and Tessa would crush DWTS, but they really wouldn't, because the network and the judges wouldn't allow it. Tessa is, objectively, better than the pros on that show, but she would blow up the floor with something and then find herself getting eights. Humiliating, just for a narrative.
Alex and Maia just have the narrative that they're used to skating/dancing with a sibling, so dancing with a pro is new, blah blah blah, and we'll have packages with the pro telling them "I'm not your sister" and "I'm not your brother." So at least there's a storyline they can work that doesn't involve undermining either one.
Yeah, Heather Morris, who was also a Beyonce backup dancer at one point, was arguably a bridge too far in terms of ringer (based on dance resume, at least people would assume it wouldn't be the same for Tessa without skates on) - but considering they did invite her, she was absolutely mistreated and just used for cannon fodder. It was gross.
DeleteSimone Biles was also given an unflattering edit and the way she was continually given sassy afro Jazz-themed programs seemed borderline racist to me. She really struggled with the sensuality - in retrospect, it's easy to speculate as to why, which is heartbreaking. The show has always been too hard on gymnasts, making it about them needing to learn to be sexy rather than learning to dance ballroom.
I think at some point, one of the Shibs would get thrown under the bus to make way for someone mediocre - just like in ice dance, there are people that need to be propped for behind the scenes reasons. I think it would be Maia who was dropped. Alex has such extroverted charm, and occasionally they do let a very talented dancer win.
But last I heard, this DWTS season is only going to be a mini one with 4 episodes. I'd rather they waited until the fall season.
I used to just love DWTs, but quit watching years ago (except for Meryl's season which I had to watch for blog purposes). It was always orchestrated, but originally I think what they did was score the good dancers well, and then score the passable dancers good enough if they were getting tons of fan votes, and THEN they'd use a lot of misdirection so it was difficult to predict the winner. And of course sometimes they'd score so as to keep someone in who wasn't getting the votes. They also did this ordinal thing I vaguely remember where fans who paid attention could in retrospect pretty much figure out where everyone must have placed in the fan votes.
DeleteThen it just became an out and out fraud where IMO they decided the winner before the show started, AND it became overproduced, which took a lot of the fun out of it. They'd also do stuff like give one team something like "Jailhouse Rock" for their jive, and another team something undancable from Fallout Boy.
I didn't watch Biles season but that's revolting.Jazzy and sassy?
You make excellent points about why the sensual stuff may have been difficult for her :(, and I'd add that I don't think that needs to be a note every winner needs to strike. Let people play to their strengths.
I didn't know about Heather Morris - that's awful. I know it would be done to Tessa, and I don't think my blood pressure could handle it.
oc
Oh! Another great contestant that got thrown under the bus - Nancy Kerrigan. She was awesome, really lovely dancing. But her partner went a very classic ballroom route, people thought she was complaining when she was really more just hard on herself, she had confident performances but people thought she was tentative because she didn't go OTT with the acting... not sure which factor did her in, but she kept getting underscored and left way too soon.
DeleteDid they stick her with Tony Davolani?
DeleteInterview with Maia and Alex from 28-2-2018, where they discuss DWTS again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGjifzZoifg
DeleteAs long as the Skating powers that be dictates what style or dance is in Favour (and journalists towing the narrative), ice dance will continue to remain the same no matter how many changes they make to the rules. It feels like lottery now
ReplyDeleteIt's not about style, but about the elevation of teams without superior skating skills.
DeleteA good team should be able to execute any style, because the underpinning is mastery of the blade. It may not appear to suit their age, physical type, personality, etc., but they should be able to deliver any style if they're good skaters. We've seen this over and over when teams had to do compulsories, when teams had to do original dances.
Style and dance type is not the issue. PC aren't artificially raised to the top because of their style. Their style is in favor because Pc were artificially raised to the top.
I understand your point about p/C's rise to the top. Though I see it in their case, it IS the style of dance that pushed them there. Even when figure skating should be (first) about the skating skills followed by artistry (doesn't matter what kind). Why else the Shibs were pushed down in favor of p/c that whole seasons when v/m was on break. If any skater I'd actually acknowledge as pretty solid skating skills + artistry it would have been the Shibs. But no, they (Feds/judges) went by how they felt about a program and skating skills be damned. That nod is further solidified by seasoned sport journalists who tells us that yes, they are the best, they are skating with levels, etc. when clearly we seasoned watchers can see but can't call out on their BS without them ignoring or push back stating we are the wrong ones.
Delete^beverly smith's article even showed how inconsistent the judges marking of couples and the ranking where they are put. Example, top couple can be ranked as low as 4th or 5th by one. Another not. All in just their scoring. Why else again Carmen lift is now favourable instead of when it debuted in 2012. Plus those crazy ass PCS assigned to a team (with clearly messed up performance in general) doesn't t help prove to me that it's all about technical skills first. But all about feels and liking and then, followed by a perceived skating skill levels. That's what wrong with this situation
Delete"But no, they (Feds/judges) went by how they felt about a program and skating skills be damned.
DeleteI don't think so. I think deals were struck and quid pro quos set up from 2010-2014 so that all the Feds would get on board with making Davis White Olympic champions, including Skate Canada. The pay-off may have come in Sochi for Russia (the women's gold) but it came in the subsequent cycle for France and Canada. France got ice dance world champions, and Canada got what it bizarrely most wanted, to finally have dance champions trained in Canada instead of in the States by Russian ex-pats. Why they were obsessed with that I don't know. So the champions came from Gadbois, and P/C got the nod. The lyrical mush style they used, and the relaxed bodies, made it easy to fake-skate, just as Davis White's toe-picking scampering, hopping, running, flinging, dragging, sliding, game-faced, jam-packed two-footed exhibitions made it seem like something impressive was going on.
Nothing to do with judges' preference. All about where they trained (Canada) and the Fed behind them (France).
Whose turn is it next?
oc
I agree that P/C and Gadbois weren't chosen *for* their style, but I think it's maybe less actively strategic and more that floaty mush is simply what Gadbois does with all its teams. The style became popular because Gadbois was chosen, and not the other way around - agreed. But my feeling is the style itself was a natural development of Marie-France's incompetence. (Yes, it's very much like things in the past, but it seems different than the quad or two before...) Does it make things easier for P/C? Heck yes, but I think it's not necessarily a conscious decision, and rather that these people truly believe they're making world-class art. It's hard to sum up without taking the time to make a lot of references, but there have been dozens and dozens of interviews of people from that camp. The way Marie-France is always wanting to discuss what an incredible and profound artist she is (that woman has an ego the size of Quebec), the way P/C discuss giving the audience spiritual moments with the emotion of their movement - it's bullshit but they truly sound delusional. Marina absolutely knew she was being strategic with D/W, and I think they knew it too on some level, that they were "playing to their strengths" or whatever helped them justify it to themselves. With Gadbois, my gut feeling is that it was fortuitous how well the style distracted from P/C's weaknesses, and that now the camp has bought into the hype that what they're doing is somehow more valuable than mere skating.
DeleteI get where you're coming from and I completely agree about Marie France - the woman knows when the MFrance Cam is on her - and she is putting on a show dancing along w/her skaters - and is not a good actress. I agree they sound delusional, but it could also be because everybody knows there are no solid reasons for PC's advancement, so they have to go delusional and sort of spin and spin and spin. There's no alternative, IOW.
DeleteWhen I look back at early P/C, the skating skills are much the same, but they're doing conventional programs and the elements are not protecting them. He's not going into this half spread eagle or cantilever or whatever it is that gets his center of gravity low and super wide - they're skating, and about as solidly mid-pack doing it as DW back when DW would actually try to skate their programs.
Marie France blathers on and on and on about how PC flew to the top because she found the programs they should be doing - an absolutely terrible message - but I think it's really IS strategic - let's find the style that takes out everything they don't do well and hides it. The DW style is beyond them, but lyrical was right in their upper body wheelhouse. After all, the point is that Gadbois be seen to be this genius training center, it doesn't actually have to be. I don't for one second think Marie France had anything to do with Virtue and Moir's programs this season, but she'll get the credit and whoever they actually worked with will have the satisfaction of knowing their contribution. So the same could have been done with P/C, because actually I think what they've done with them, all the ways they've gotten around actually proving they can do the thing, is beyond Marie France's talents. Sure she can do nebulous bits of choreo like some of the in betweens in Moonlight Sonata, but I actually think it takes cunning and a good sense of deconstruction to assemble one of these Rube Goldberg contraptions and sustain it through the elements and also get around actually doing difficult elements (even though the rules have done their utmost to help). So I don't precisely credit Marie France for PC's choreography. It LOOKS like Gadbois, but to sell it, it has to be very adroitly faked, and I'm not sure she's got that gift.
oc
In the past Romain has also worked on their programs (when he does solo work with skilled teams, he's really very good), this year it was Christopher Dean. So yeah someone's helping her with the actual construction, so I guess you have a point. Far be it from me to argue for her capability as a choreographer in any way.
DeleteBut I do think the general aesthetic has been driven by her quite naturally - because as I said, it's the exact same thing for 90% of the programs that come out of there, and she gives every indicator of believing that her work is actually extraordinary and meaningful rather than clever - and yet it certainly has ended up being useful for selling P/C, the whole pretentious magic poetry crap gives them cover. But I truly question whether Marie-France is aware that P/C aren't as good as V/M, because good lord she sounds like such an idiot most of the time.
Did you see the documentary about the making of Roxanne? Marie-France really isn't taking much credit for it, it's more focused on one of their off-ice dance teachers. I think it's plausible that it was V/M who were helping Chouinard transfer some of this to ice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryrBVGd9aOg
M-F has been very fond this season of calling V/M the earth and fire and P/C the wind and water. The big interviews this year have been in French so they're harder to find but they're on the V/M fan Tumblrs, FSU in the P/C thread, etc.
DeleteI agree she's putting on a real act with the M-F Cam moments (ugh), but as for quotes, I think it's really who she is. Some samples from before the rise of P/C:
August 2014 (P/C only opened their season in October, and got reasonable scores in a win at ACI then): http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2014/08/28/91363984/ice-dance-school-thriving-under-dubreuil-lauzon
I'm always entertained by D/L's assertions that their free dances as competitors were models of difficult, intricate transitions.
1999 interview, where it's not impossible to detect a throughline from some of these thoughts to her choreo philosophy: http://www.webcitation.org/67cNddHQI
This IFS piece from 2007 is also interesting for two reasons. One is Tracy Wilson's commentary, which sounds directly like commentary explaining P/C's rise in 2014-15, and the other is the mention of D/L's performance coach. She now works with H/D and FB/S. https://web.archive.org/web/20090112154407/http://www.ifsmagazine.com/archive/2007/MAR/INDEX.PHP
(I can also say that the Gadbois style, although it comes in a few flavors beyond straight lyrical like "jazzy standards" -- P/I's Sinatra program, Soucisse/Firus's Tony Bennett copy of it this year -- existed before P/C were even glints in D/L's coaching eyes. You had to watch younger Canadians to know it, though.)
"We thought to ourselves, 'Let's make sure that in the future nobody else has to move away from Montreal if they want to have high-level coaching.'"
DeleteAnd lo, it came to pass. The first Canadian training center to accomplish this. I guess no other had ever tried before.
The to do over Gadbois makes me believe that Skate Canada felt Virtue and Moir's brilliance was all very well and good, and it was certainly the cherry on top of the Vancouver Olympics, but what's in it for them long term? Basking in celebrity, being seen with, etc., but it was well known their team was in Michigan. Virtue and Moir could pay their obeisance to Skate Canada's invaluable support and guidance all they wanted, but the team that took them to the top was in Michigan, and Russian.
I think they were more than happy to sell them down the river in 2010-2014 to be able to say champion ice dancers didn't have to leave Canada to become champions. They already had the Vancouver gold, what would SC get out of a Sochi gold? Now that Virtue and Moir got gold in Pyeongchang, it's bonus time. Yes, they got gold in Vancouver, and that was wonderful, but it was ten years of abuse, misery and fear at Canton to get there. Whereas in the two years they were with Marie France and Patrice, it was fluffy bunnies, group hugs and aromatherapy. I know that's coming - it's already hinted.
At least now Scott and Tessa might be able to keep their stories straight about exactly which ice dance team were their role models coming up, Marie France/Patrice or Shae Lynn/Victor.
Yeah, read Tracy Wilson's quotes. I wish ice dance people would quit with that glop - we don't get that nonsense with pairs and singles.
Tessa and Scott were perfection. I mean the woman literally back flipped into his arms and he didn’t miss a beat and the lifts omg. Scott also doesn’t get enough love for how beautifully he skates, and just the athleticism they both have to make all those lifts look so easy. They deserved nothing less than gold for their performances - I can appreciate the beauty of the floaty lines the French make but it’s not like they have to try hard with those limbs and their technical skills are BASIC in comparison to VM. It’s complete bullshit that it took a costume malfunction to get VM the gold but we’ll just call it karma. Cause there’s no way they deserved the technical scores they got - not a chance in hell.
ReplyDeleteTheir floaty limbs aren't even in sync or the same angles and lines except for that syncopated rhythm thing they did with their arms, repetitively, throughout the long.
DeleteThe French don't actually make nice lines. Screen shots of them look awkward, and his posture is weird. They MOVE in a pleasing way, graceful, floaty and relaxed, although don't look hard at anything from the knees down.
Tessa is just stunning this time around. For one thing, her body is just sick. I've seen skaters, such as Duhamel, in unbelievable condition, but she's different. She's as fit as it gets, but the dance training and all the very specific stuff they do to get themselves to where they can do what they do has shown up in her body differently somehow, so that it's a freaking work of art, beyond even what we see in elite figure skaters. Just the way she changes position - utterly fluid, but also elastic and sharp - and fucking fast. I can watch her rotate out of the closing rotational and hit her exit and then her closing pose over and over. I can watch her exit the opening move (where she jumps backwards onto Scott) - change her hips and her legs - over and over. Never seen anyone move like that. There are prima ballerinas who would kill to have that.
Someone should sculpt her. She's not of this world, and when she's in her Moulin Rouge costume she looks about ten feet tall.
Scott is just amazing in the lifts. He's usually sailing along at speed, and let's not forget when Tessa flips into his arms she does it blind. She's got her back to him and then launches her jump off the turn. There is no redundancy in the support and leverage he provides as she rotates into position.
I think everybody knows the scores for the French in the free and the short were a joke. I hope I'm not wrong, but I'm picking up a "tone" in the reporting, even, a "let's not kid ourselves, they (VM) won it outright, both segments." Usually there's a bit of lip service to respecting the scores. It's not that anyone is ragging on the French directly, but I've read a couple of things that asserted VM were runaway winners, and never mind the protocols - their skates were untouchable. The audience knows it, too. It's not like Davis White when there was the full force of not just all of figure skating, but the American media backing it up (because they were American).
Which again makes me wonder how popular ice dance is going to be if VM do retire and it's just P/C winning everything for four years.
oc
Wanted to mention one more thing - going back to the beginning this blog as always snarked on Rosie DiManno, a super unqualified "journalist" who has a great gig making everything from world events to figure skating into soap opera while sitting at a bar somewhere, not needing to actually research her subject beyond calling in for quotes and checking google. She has fallen in love with covering figure skating, and who wouldn't. It's a great get paid to travel the world and trade gossip without having to know anything jobs.
DeleteShe describes Virtue and Moir encountering the Canadian media - maybe in the mixed zone? And rushing in for a group hug.
Just reiterating, as has been done here before, that too many journalists, not just celebrity journalists, but sadly political journalists as well, care more about being liked and being validated and treated well by who they cover than they do about the public. Furthermore, all too many journalists or let's just say people in media, are extremely thin-skinned. As frauds often are.
oc
That K/P program was... something. I couldn't fully enjoy it because I got anxious about all. that. fabric. But it really illustrates what bullshit the P/C ubers are peddling about their team's so-called "innovation'.
ReplyDeleteClarifying my post: the fabric made me fret because I kept thinking it might get caught on the skate blades.
DeleteI blame the journalists for peddling this notion to the fans that p/c had somehow innovated the ice dance. Always trying to appease all fan base while kept in line by the real Skating Feds/Union. This is the same fans whose unwillingness to even acknowledge that v/m's superior skating skills and versatility brought on ice. And in fact brought ice dance to what best looks like.
DeleteI can't deny that Klimova Ponomarenko had the goods, but I just can't with those programs.
DeleteI never worry about the fabric with 1990s ice dancers. I think you had to pass skating with textiles back the before you could advance out of sectionals.
oc
LOL @ "skating with textiles"
DeleteHope the OP has seen this:
ReplyDeletehttp://people.com/sports/winter-olympics-2018-canadian-ice-dancers-really-couple-interview/
LOL. Such trolling.
On the talking heads "Olympic Ice" show with Tanith and Scott Hamilton, when they were giving the FD recap, they said that the crowd was silent during PC's FD because they were mesmerized by the program.
ReplyDeleteNow, earlier in the Olympics, Tara and Johnny (I think it was those two), talked about how much skaters love to skate in South Korea because the fans love skating and it's so easy to get a reaction out of them. As they put it, the turn of a head can sometimes set them off.
My take? The crowd wasn't mesmerized. They were bored.
I think the lyrical much PC do is loved by their fans because you don't have to know anything, nor expose that you don't know anything. If a team does a tango, you have to know what a tango is supposed to look like (never mind that most fans think it's about acting); same with waltz, rhumba, etc., and you also need to know steps. You need to know skating. If they select a "deep" piece of music and go out there waving their arms with angsty expressions on their faces, you can love it and not have to explain why. You can invent shit - some of the "they ARE the music!" stuff on forums make you cringe.
DeleteI also think PC are exactly like DW - they have their vocal ubers, and that's it. No appeal to the general public.
oc
"No appeal to the general public." In D/W's case, there is an appeal to the American general public, but it's more of the fact that they're *American* gold medal contenders (ugh) than the actual skating/skater part. Blind nationalism.
DeleteI know that skating fans in general tend to be a little nationalistic but in the case of D/W's fans, it's even more pronounced. The most vocal of D/W fan's on YT are Americans. And of course since V/M have come back, they've become P/C fans too (even though they were bitching P/C out pre-VMcomeback).
DeleteD/W fans are P/C fans of convenience. On some level they understand that V/M are superior to D/W and they also know D/W were gifted the gold medal in Sochi. D/W know it as well. If they thought they had a legitimate hope of Gold in Korea they would have been there. D/W are just a pair of washed up has-beens. V/M are considered among the great if not the greatest ice-dancers ever and D/W are an after thought whose programs are entirely forgettable. Little wonder Meryl Davis is a fan of P/C.
Deletewatched P/C's paso doble & flamenco 2015 SD last night and compared it to V/M's 2009 CD and 2010 OD, and P/C really got nothing on V/M. To think they were around the same age when they performed these. I wish they'd still do compulsories today so we can really compare the best teams. V/M are unmatched in patterns.
Delete@11:27 AM
DeleteGot curious with your remarks and watched said SD for the first time. P/C are not really SD skaters, are they? They hate being "boxed in" by the ballroom-y compulsory patterns/rhythms. They don't look convincing with Latin/paso/flamenco/hip-hop. Waltz/blues are probably passable. I wonder what they look like doing a polka pattern.
There was very little Spanish character in that program -- at least Cizeron tried to inject some Spanish flavor into it, his partner did not look like she was doing paso doble/flamenco at all. Speaking of paso doble, their pattern was not as sharp/precise as I'm used to (but then again my standard is V/M). Also, their first set of twizzles were not in sync. Definitely nothing to V/M's efforts.
Forgot to add: the music was carrying them. Their execution of the paso/flamenco was not living up to the music that was playing.
DeleteI think P/C are a lot worse technically than V/M, it has been discussed before (their twizzles etc.), but the main difference between them is the excellence of V/M which they have had since they were juniors. Watch junior programs by P/C, they make mistakes and just don't have that "wow" factor that V/M have and the technical difficulty. The skating quality V/M had when they were teenagers was so good even some senior teams don't achieve it during their whole career. They shined since they were little. Watch some of their programs from 2004 for example. P/C's skating in their teenage years compared to that is just meh.
DeleteOk, I also finally watched P/C's 2014 Worlds FD, that much hyped Woodkid program I've read about from their ubers (which they often cite to show that P/C *can* do non-lyrical stuff), and... I am not impressed. There was a lot of clambering about, especially in the lifts. Ironically, the lifts here seem much harder than the ones they're doing nowadays, but if you perform stuff like that, then I can see why they dumbed down the lifts to be more aesthetically pleasing (also, easier to do and not expose more weaknesses).
DeleteThey really found a way to make those long necks and long limbs work for them, huh. But how many more floaty, lyrical programs by these artistes will we see before the ice dance pendulum swings back? And they really should watch out for the Russians. All it takes is one good Russian team and I suspect P/C might get low-balled in scores. Only one Euro champion, you know, and the Russians probably want their ice dance throne back (eventually).
They looked very D/W-ish to me in that 2014 Worlds FD. So frantic and sloppy.
DeleteThey're nothing to Pechalat/Bourzat.
I was watching P/C's 2017 Worlds SD on Youtube, and there was a comment that rang true for me: V/M made everybody look limited.
Delete2014 was when Cizeron actually did a straight line on one foot and he wobbles like nobody's business. They skate a lot more, but in that program we can see the skating, and it's pedestrian. Do PC ubers who use that program to claim versatility understand that PC finished 13TH with it? And that there's a reason?
DeleteOC, if you have a chance to watch, I'm curious on your thoughts about Hurtado Khaliavin's SD and FD and how they compare to Hurtado Diaz' programs from 2014.
ReplyDeleteHD 2014 SD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twx-HkNk_FU
HD 2014 FD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP1rVMnpkUs
HK 2018 SD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAyJDduv5tg
HK 2018 FD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD_FSN-QCfc
Haven't watched either before, so first impressions:
ReplyDeleteHurtado Diaz - girl (Hurtado), take a breath. She's got lots of skating power and talent, treats her partner as if he's a necessary evil, is gonna plow right over him if he gets in her way, and if somehow he could just show up for the elements and disappear the rest of the time, that would be just great. Diaz is a good skater, and can keep up with her physically, but together they’re rough, mostly because they're not really skating together, however decently they both skate as individuals. She's attack, attack, attack, and I don't think she trusts him as far as she can throw him, which, given her apparent strength, might not be so bad as it looks like she could throw him pretty far. I like her skating skills; you can easily see the singles skater in her, but if she noticed her partner, it might have helped the programs along. I know this is more of a performance oriented opinion than skill and tech, but I think she could learn to pay a bit more attention to the linking moves and transitions and not just full steam ahead to the next highlight. She has nice stroking and power, but doesn't seem to be appreciating it other than as a means to get where she's going.
Hurtado Khaliavin. In the SD, she needs to know her own strength, sometimes she looks as if she’s going to topple over from not controlling her own momentum. Can get a little wild, but Khaliavin matches her aggression, and they seem more like a team of dancers. More importantly their stroking matches more naturally, and they’re closer together, and share a rhythm. He doesn’t seem scared, unlike Diaz, who looked like a guy minding his own business in the audience who suddenly realized he'd drawn the short straw.
They do give me Ilinykh Katsalapov vibes
Were they at Gadbois when she was with Diaz? Because I am seeing those lifts.
DeleteYes, she and Diaz were at Gadbois, and she and Khaliavin are with Zhulin. Thanks for the impressions! Funnily enough, it seems to track what I know of her off-the-ice (admittedly not much). When she and Diaz split I think she said something like she was going to think it over and didn't want another partner unless it was really the right one.
DeleteRelieved to read earlier that Carriera Ponomarenko had already been to Gadbois. Their programs with Victor are a snore - he can't seem to draw out a dance team's natural movement to save his life. He's got his template, and that's it. Marina knows how to time and place the choreography so that it energies her skaters.
DeleteI think the big different with Hurtado Khaliavin is the stroking - the knee action and the way they just plow through is very similar and it just looks more comfortable. There were times w/Diaz when they actually looked silly because nothing about them seemed to sync up - they weren't ying and yang, they didn't have complementary strengths even though I guess on paper it might have seemed that way, and they certainly weren't similar.
^Not Victor - Igor.
DeleteI think it's hilarious that in the lead-up to Games, P/C were "making changes" to their programs...what changes? Maybe there were changes, I just can't bring myself to re-watch their programs, they're sleep-inducing and fucking horrible to watch. On the other hand, I've re-watched V/M and the Shibs too many times to count.
ReplyDeleteAlso, it's pathetic that P/C were chosen as flag bearers for the closing ceremonies, when France have so many more deserving athletes, including the cross-country skier who become the most decorated French Olympic athlete. I guess Didier's reach reaches far into the French Olympic Committee, huh?
But not far enough. Muhahhahahahahahaha!!!
DeleteThe pressed P/C ubers are so amusing. They harp about double standards in the judging, but look the other way when their team is majorly gifted in scoring. They point fingers at the Canadian judge, but conveniently forget about the French, Russian and US ones. Also, one of the biggest crooks in skating is the president of their federation. Stones, glass houses, look at yourself in the mirror first, etc.
DeleteIt really was karma/divine intervention that Didier's plans got scuppered.
Thank you, V/M, for coming back and preventing P/C's seemingly pre-ordained ascent as Olympic champions (from even the beginning of this quad). What a farce that would have been. Thank you for being that dash of cold-water reality in the faces of the smug, over-hyped, believing-in-their-own-press French duo who in truth, did not deserve to be put above better teams. P/C should work more on their edging/stroking. Also, Papadakis needs to level up re: core strength.
Also, thank you, V/M, for throwing a wrench in Sharon Rodgers' plans. The record books will show that V/M are the all-time greatest above the other dance teams, including her precious D/W.
Speaking of possible retirement, do you think that v/m is considering doing maybe another season or two before announcing? The feeling I get is that they talk of Korea being their last games and based on post FD interviews about the possibility of them staying around for a bit. Like they'll know during the summer. I'm all for them retiring and leaving on a high note. But feel somewhat excited at the prospect of them going for another season or two before truly ending their competitive career. Bad or good idea?
ReplyDeleteRetire, for the love of skating! Go out on an unbeatable high. Much as I would love to see another Tango Romantica from them, it would just feel anti-climactic if they come back again, and it would also negate any goodwill they've earned these past two seasons.
DeleteThe sport screwed them over and only one because if divine intervention and or unforeseen circumstances like the reaction to the lifting change and team event which in Sochi was muted. No they should retire make some cash and forget it.
DeleteI think they probably don't want to retire. They clearly thrive on competition when they're allowed to have a prayer of winning, they are on another plane when they work off one another on the ice, they're thoroughbreds, as someone said (only thoroughbreds who have already bred) and I think it's just so so tough to give it up. If this were a real sport they'd have three golds and go on to 2022 because why not. After 2022 I think they'd be done. I don't think they feel done now, but they're weighing reality based considerations (oh, the fuckery if they carry on) with who they still are, and how they get off on skating at the level they skate. I get it, but I think that realistically, the fuckery will of course prevail, and the circumstances that allowed them to win in Pyeongchang (miscalculated politics, basically) won't repeat. They'll be low balled from here on in, 5 points lower than the French, and even though we're not supposed to compare across different competitions, who are we kidding. The comparison is legit. It was with DW and it was with PC. If one team consistently outscores another in its separate GP event, the sport is sending a message and the rest is just spin.
DeleteI think they've made cash and have cash, so that's not as much of a thing.
P.S. - what other team, and I include Gordeeva Grinkov in their two Olympic gold medal winning appearances, have ever skated six perfect programs in three straight Olympics. We all know their skates in 2014 were winning programs. What other singles or team skaters can say they skated that dream Olympic program in every single Olympics in which they appeared, in both segments? They are surreal. I watch Moulin Rouge, Scott singing out the lyrics all the way through, chatting to Tessa, Tessa actually singing with him from time to time, and they're on another plane.
DeleteWish they'd add ice dance to the Japan Open or something. They used to have it at the Canadian Open with an OD and an FD. Bourne Kraatz and the other Canadians would skate their OD for the year against professional teams like Usova Platov who would create an OD to the same rhythms - waltz, Latin, etc.
DeleteI think it could satisfy VM's desire to compete and push themselves creatively, and give us the opportunity to see their tango SD. But since it wouldn't be a "real" competition, they could do it without worrying that it would tarnish their legacy. The judges would have no need to hold down their score because they'd know VM wouldn't be competing at Worlds against the predestined couples.
Meryl Davis is doing some graceful skating these days. People really pay to see this??https://68.media.tumblr.com/9a0820a56a74eb57d7a6f3077ed48c5e/tumblr_p4ysb68nWy1tda0x7o1_1280.jpg
ReplyDeleteWell, there are people who actually believe P/C's skating skills are superior to V/M's, so... *shrug*
DeleteAnd what an elegant posture on Charlie, lol.
DeleteShe's still my big mystery. Her uncanny valleyness, and how she can't for love or money manage her own weight. She couldn't on the ice, and she couldn't on DWTs either, which is as low as the bar can get. It was suggested to me that as ripped as she is, her negligible body fat leaves her much weaker than her muscle tone would suggest, and she simply lacks the core strength. I didn't know you could be utterly toned and still weak, but it's a thing. All of their programs were exercises in compensation, but so were her performances in DWTs. I want to know if it's as simple as low body weight or if it's something else.
DeletePS, they've still got that eye contact going on. /s
DeleteShe gets more freaky as time goes on. It is a good thing they are retired. She is a human anomaly.
Delete