"The Olympic champions, two-time world champions, six times Canadian champions, and parents of three..."
I missed this completely this weekend. I'd planned to celebrate the Shibs at the 4CCs, put it off until today, then saw this on youtube.
I will fill this out later with the 4CCs, which seems a little irrelevant now that these two are returning. Does the sport have the gall to pretend Papadakis/Cizeron or Chock/Bates are remotely competitive with them? Did awareness of this decision impact Weaver & Poje's performance at the 4CCs?
Edited from earlier:
I hope to God Virtue and Moir have received a clear green light from the ISU and an absolute promise they will not be ratfucked in 2018. Watching the sport pretend anybody else is in the same universe would be unbearable.
This:
took me aback when I saw it. It may be down to thin-slicing, but the way they moved even in this tiny instagram clip is not how show skaters move. The condition they're in is not show skater condition. At the time, I thought maybe they were doing it for themselves, but we all know show skating and tour skating is no real format to sustain, let alone develop, an athletic/technical peak. They weren't moving like retired skaters, but who knew if it was leading to a comeback, or if they couldn't help themselves.
I wonder if Virtue and Moir's comeback has any bearing on what happened with the Shibutanis on the back half of this season. Their fortunes completely reversed themselves even though they have always been the best of the post-Sochi competitive ice dancers. What happened? Is the sport preparing the way for VM's return by creating a new climate in which the authentically best ice dancers get the best scores?
During the Grand Prix series, I was pleased that the Shibutanis were suddenly being scored on par with the A team instead of the bench, but after the Grand Prix final I was sure that any impulse towards fairness had been squelched. I never anticipated everything would flip at the US Championships, that the Shibs would outscore the same basic Chock & Bates effort that had defeated them over and over in the past.
Virtue and Moir should be competing. Of the show programs I've seen, Tessa Virtue is even better than when she left. I am not looking forward to protocols claiming Gabrielle Papadakis got her key points and levels while Tessa Virtue did not.
P.S. - while maintaining every impression of amicability, Kaitlyn Lawes has appeared to vanish from the Virtue Moir narrative. I'm wondering if a new Olympic-cycle girlfriend has been chosen, or if the entire post-Sochi extension of the sham was intended to last only as long as it took Tessa to have two kids. The woman is a machine.
I'm very excited, but also unsettled. I don't want to see ice dance re-buried and Virtue and Moir humiliated, which is exactly what we'll have if they don't win everything from now til 2018 as soon as they step foot on competitive ice.
P.S. Marie-France Dubreuil and Patrice Lauzon? They suck. Maybe it was part of the deal Skate Canada hammered out when allowing Virtue Moir back. Train with Canadians at a Canadian training center and we won't screw you over at Canadians. Maybe they'll secretly pay Marina to choreograph. A whole lot of bullshit has always fueled Virtue and Moir's public persona; perhaps "training in Montreal" is the Jessica Dube/Cassandra Hilborn/Kaitlyn Lawes of this new phase of their competitive career.
****
Random from the skating season to date:
I still can't fathom WTF with Chock and Bates. They're on par with Davis White in sucking the oxygen out of an arena. The extreme artificiality of their performance personas, the rote execution of skating skill workarounds, and the same slowing down before and after elements that we saw with DW. The Shibs do not skate a great deal in close hold either, but they're skating, not taking turns skating a la Chock & Bates, and, before C&B, Davis White. The Shibs' unison is wonderful, they have "the same rhythm and knee action" in them (quoting Peggy Fleming) and they have tremendous speed, flow and ice coverage. Chock and Bates skate as if they're underwater. Not as if they live underwater - as if they've been forced to do a program underwater.
Duhamel Radford aren't really world champion calibre now? I agree, but when was that decided? I guess Trankov can move onto something else to critique - his work there is done. I'd read that DR had revamped their program so they didn't telegraph the quads as much, but I saw little improvement there. I also don't know when Megan's range of motion became so small and so tight.
I think Illyushechkina and Moscovitch need to go to a pairs coach, even for a clinic, even if it means asking the group at Gauthier's make room. She has her jumps. Their skating skills are strong. They just continue to have weird problems skaters at their level shouldn't be having, problems which make them more cautious than they should be when exiting lifts, for example. It's stupid.
Kirsten Moore Towers: What strikes me about her is she seldom talks about figure skating the way the best skaters do. I never read or hear her talking about the skating side, the athletic side. Never squeezing more points out of a program or growing GOE. It's always Moore Towers and her personal experience/gratification working with somebody, it's always the program, it's the packaging. She'd fit right in at the skating forums with where she puts her emphasis. It's just mystifying to me that she's as ambitious as she represents herself to be, that she changed coaching centers, but getting herself into the same fitness and strength level as other podium-contending pairs girls isn't an avenue she considers. Even when she's in reasonable/decent shape, as she was at Canadians, she's not remotely at the same strength and fitness level as those on the podium. When I look back at Sochi or Worlds, she and Dylan could have easily made the podium if it weren't for the incremental accumulation throughout the programs of small sloppiness-es, unnecessary wobbliness (down to not having the same core strength and full body stretch of podium skaters) and lack of finish. That, also, seems stupid.
P.S. I hope someone had words with Tanith Belbin White after her US National Championship commentating effort and told her to put a lid on it. I can't watch the Shibutanis winning performance because she's squawking all through it, taking two paragraphs to make a point that contains less than a sentence's worth of observation or perspective.
"Maybe they'll secretly pay Marina to choreograph."
ReplyDeleteoh booooooooooy marina brown-noser's are back. when will people learn marina screwed over the best ice dance team in the world because of nepotism? because meryl is marrying her son? have any of you seen what meryl posts on IG? and her recent interviews? its so obvious they are serious together and are gonna get engaged. i wouldn't let marina ANYWHERE near VM because lord knows she isnt gonna be too happy that the best ice dance team in the world will have more medals than her precious flower of a daughter-in-law. at least montreal doesn't put nepotism/family etc. above talent etc. and the shit that happened at canton when igor was deposed wont happen again since vm are on home ice.
It was the ISU and corrupt judging that screwed over V/M, not Marina. Marina showed nepotism towards D/W, how exactly? By giving them shit programs?
DeleteSo far, I've been unimpressed by Montreal; Marie-France doesn't know how to choreograph if her life depended on it. No opinion on Patrice's ability as a technical coach, but anybody who thinks that Paradis/Oulette magically attained the minimum SD TES at 4CC's is a naïve fool. It was Skate Canada meddling, that's all.
P/C's "ascent" had nothing to do with Montreal and all about the French feds' politicking. It was probably payback for all the years that Pechalat/Bourzat got screwed in pursuit of D/W's fake ascent.
Stop it. It was the ISU, with the full cooperation of Skate Canada, that screwed them over. Unless you believe DW had magic TES and made all their key points while crushing VM in pcs in 2013-2014. Knock it off.
Delete"Marina showed nepotism towards D/W, how exactly? By giving them shit programs?" the only thing shitty about schez was dw skating cause dw cant skate or dance for beans, other than that it was a well constructed free dance. oh looord y'all need to stop licking marina's ass. she played a role in this. she benefited from this. it isnt jsut the isu or sc/usfsa fuckery. she. allowed. this. to. happen. heck she's probably behind the whole reason why meryl seems to believe in her press, that she is the greatest dancer ever. you have to be a fool to believe it was only the isu/usfsa that were behind d/w's win. marina could've refused to directly participate in this fuckery like igor probably did. but i guess nepotism/family is more important to marina then true talent and skill. besides, how bad would it look if she allowed her son's future wife to get beaten by vm again? family don't do that to family.
Deleteand besides vm were at montreal before p/c. people didn't move to mtl because p/c won worlds. they went to mtl to train with OLYMPIC champions.im pretty sure vm being there is one of the reasons p/c moved there anyway.
4:48, no she didn't, and I'm not rehashing years of this crap all over again. Don't bring the Marina b.s. here or your comment will be removed. Enough.
Delete"Politicking" had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Davis and White's scoring. It was collusion, from the top down, Dore on down, Benoit, every Fed, and the media. No politicking is necessary. It was straight up corruption.
Delete1:41pm, my theory is the rise of P&C was dealmaking fostered by mutual interests of the French and Canadian skating Federations. Canada would get a world champion from a Canadian training center, the French would obviously get a world champion.
Deleteyes!!!!!!!!!! i cannot wait. they seem very self assured in their announcement, no way would they come back without assurances!
ReplyDeleteMan, I am HOPING.
DeleteTessa's silhouette is different, more of a pre-kids throwback.
I felt so abashed at missing this announcement that I ran to goldenskate and fsuniverse to catch up. Glad to see that the awareness of the actual skating as an actual sport is as keen as it's ever been. Just so we all remember, who wins in ice dance depends upon the package, the performance (the acting part) and the style.
VM's show skating selves crush everybody competing. Video I've watched suggests they're sharper now than they were in the past after Worlds and before spring training. No matter how brilliant you may be, nobody stays that sharp if they're done. I speculated that maybe they have SO much athletic talent they couldn't help themselves, and were doing it for themselves.
Once it became apparent that since Sochi Tessa and Scott have had TWO kids, a comeback seemed likely. Otherwise why time it that way?
But I seriously will not be able to stand it if the sport pretends that there is anybody remotely in their league. I LOVE the Shibs; they're the best skaters competing now, and Alex is right that Maia is the best female (I think he's also the best male). But they're not in VM's league still.
P.S., ever since Kaitlyn Lawes sort of wandered off on her own, which has been since Scotland, and, I think it's safe to speculate, as soon as Tessa was safely delivered of her third kid, Scott and Tessa have been putting out the sort of social media they ought to have done from the start. Sharing experiences, not their personal life. Even making up experiences to share. Being relaxed about the amount of time they spend together, and not hurrying to balance it out with sham events.
DeleteIMO all of this was perfectly achievable during her pregnancies, and there was nothing about her pregnancies that made the other approach necessary.
wait there's a third kid now?
DeleteThat's speculation 9:52. But when I was placeholding here (not intentionally, it just happened that way) this past season, a comment mentioned that Tessa certainly did look as if she were pregnant again, almost immediately after her second pregnancy. Unless she had an 18 month pregnancy, it's hard to avoid the conclusion she had two babies in a row. Find the few un-photoshopped photos over the past year during what would be her third pregnancy. There's stuff that happens to Tessa's body (thighs and booty most markedly) when she's pregnant that absolutely disappear when she's not.
DeleteThen, almost IMMEDIATELY around the general time she would have given birth to the third child, there was no more Kaitlyn Lawes. That just went away. In hindsight, one could speculate that Lawes' entire purpose in the first place was to be a convenient long distance girlfriend for about two years while Scott and Tessa completed their family. They just don't even pretend with timing. Sochi ends and BOOM - almost immediately there goes Cassandra, the hometown girlfriend. Not convenient anymore to have one of those while Scott and Tessa take time off and he'd presumably actually BE in his hometown more frequently. She is replaced with a "girlfriend" based 2,000+ kilometres away, someone who is an Olympic athlete, so there are built in shared events and photo ops, but someone we couldn't realistically expect him to settle down with and marry until after 2018.
DeleteThen as soon as Tessa was done child-birthing, Kaitlyn is also gone.
I don't know what's next, as she certainly appears to still have all the qualifications they'd look for in the run-up to 2018, the key ones being long-distance, but still on the Canadian Olympic athlete event circuit.
I'm afraid Tessa and Scott are going against ISU's "advice" going back to competitive ice dancing, and that will get them screwed over. I'm sure I won't be able to take it if the judges start acting like the clowns that have been competing lately are actual competition for VM. Honestly, anything less than gold for VM is just ripping them off. I'm still not over the years of pretending DW were as good as VM. Still I'm happy VM are back! If nothing else it'll be even clearer to see just how above the other teams VM are!
ReplyDeleteWell, that's exactly it. I won't be able to take it either if the judges start pretending that anybody out there is competition for them. The Shibutanis are gorgeous skaters and even they can't touch Virtue and Moir. I see though, that the sport continues to use pcs to hold up crappy skaters. That one still kills me. The score developed to reward superior skating is used to inflate the scores of ice dancers with mediocre skating skills.
DeleteI think they want to turn the Shibs into the new DW and screw Tessa and Scott over. But the joke will be on them, because anyone who can actually see will notice what's going on, like happened in Sochi. Because, really, I think those people who "can't see" how good VM are happen to be the kind of people that would think like - "oh, this choreo is faster, this song is cooler, I like this style better, therefore this team is better!" Really sad. And of course, there are the ones that like a couple "oooh, they are so cute!" and want them to win, therefore fool themselves into believing said team is good. (I still can't believe WP won GPF when VM never did! WTF???) I have nothing against WP but, really? Not even their fans believe they are that good, otherwise they wouldn't be whining about VM's return like they are. If for your team to win, a certain team must not compete I guess it's pretty obvious who's the best.
DeleteI considered that. And if it happened it would be less galling than DW. The Shibs actually skate. They actually are top flight, quality skaters with real speed and flow, wonderful ice coverage, great unison, terrific rotation, etc. But if you ran off a checklist of legitimate ice dance attributes, they can't compete with Virtue and Moir. The state of ice dance is such that nobody else can really compete with THEM (the Shibs) no matter what the sport pretends.
Delete^To clarify the above - nobody in eligible ice dance can compete with even show skater level Virtue Moir. And IMO nobody in eligible skating can currently compete with the Shibs (VM aren't eligible). Not if you look at criteria upon which the sport pretends it bases protocols. The Shibs aren't flawless, but nobody else takes what they can do and ups the ante.
Delete"I have more comment tonight. My main comment now is I hope to GOD Virtue and Moir have received a clear green light from the ISU and an absolute promise they will not be ratfucked in 2018. The seemingly very sudden decision to reward the Shibutanis actual skating, to let them become US Champions even after a performance by Chock & Bates that would assuredly have trounced the Shibs in the protocols at any prior time seemed inexplicable to me. My only theory was that the Shibs were not only the best skaters, but had an enormously crowd-pleasing pair of programs, and perhaps the sport was going through one of its rare bouts of caring what the audience thought."
ReplyDeleteYes!! Exactly.
In fact, after the Shibs were allowed to win, I thought that maybe that did mean VM were coming back after all.
"The woman is a machine."
No kidding! Everything that has been balanced the past 2 years (by both of them) is incredible.
"I'm very excited, but also unsettled. I don't want to see ice dance re-buried and Virtue and Moir humiliated, which is exactly what will happen if they don't win everything from now til 2018 as soon as they step foot on competitive ice."
Ditto.
I completely agree with almost every comment that has been posted in here so far. h
I was completely excited when they announced their comeback. Their show skating usually bores me to tears. The joke is Stay, I Want To Hold Your Hand [fill in whatever other anemic bare bones tune they're skating to this time]. (I don't like anybody's show skating, really, because there's not enough skating in them.)
DeleteBut when I checked out VM's skating over this past season, their form was such that it was so INCREDIBLY frustrating to remember again that they were apparently driven out of the sport and for all intents and purposes barred from returning. What would be the point? The entire sport was a lie; the sport had made an executive/management decision to make it one.
I can't help theorizing that there's some connection between the reversal of the Shibutanis fortunes, considering the type of skaters they are, and Virtue and Moir's return.
Their return is also a good reminder to steer clear of skating discussion on the skating forums. It's very depressing to see there how very few people had any idea how good Virtue and Moir were and are.
"I can't help theorizing that there's some connection between the reversal of the Shibutanis fortunes, considering the type of skaters they are, and Virtue and Moir's return."
DeleteAt first I presumed that the Shibs winning was the changing of the tides, so to speak. That FINALLY the best team was being scored properly and allowed to win. That was setting the stage for VM to return, by acknowledging good skaters, and giving them the obvious win that they should have had all along. Now, I've been wondering if it's more of a push to let them win some things before VM come back. It could be a combination as well. I guess time will tell.
I'm more in the setting the stage camp, as I posted, because the second theory - let them win some things before VM come back - would confuse me if true, because the sport behaved as if they never intended to let the Shibutanis win anything at all. They were given little encouragement to believe their turn would ever come. The Rube Goldberg contraption of Chock Bates was slapped together and immediately placed ahead of the Shibutanis purely because they trained with Shpilband. Until US Nationals it appeared to me as if everything were being done to run the Shibs out of the sport; just demoralize them double what they did last season. Last season certainly made it seem as if they were in the way. They weren't anywhere in the queue - they were being ignored out of existence. There was every indication they would NEVER get their "turn."
DeleteThen suddenly, abruptly, the ISU took the shackles off. What the hell happened? I had a bunch of theories, among them that the other ice dancers were so godawful boring and the Shibs performances so wonderfully crowd pleasing as well as wonderfully skated, TPTB couldn't help themselves and thought what the hell. But considering how little the ISU has cared about what's actually on the ice, that theory didn't seem plausible. What happened was startling. I was happy about it, but it only confirms how corrupt the whole thing is. One day, and it really was one day, the Shibs skate beautifully and Chock & Bates "skate" their best performance of the year, and the Shibs win. WTH? C&B have beaten the Shibs even after they screw up the last 14 seconds of their program and kind of shuffle around ineffectually. Now without anything in what they do changing, it's completely flipped. They can't beat them.
I really want it to be setting the stage for VM's return, because there is nobody skating now, at the top, who are strong skaters, who are even real World Champion calibre in an off year, and that's not likely to change over the next two years. These are seasoned teams. They're what they are already. The native SKATING talent in most of them (not musicality, not athletically), save the Shibs, is mediocre.
"I really want it to be setting the stage for VM's return, because there is nobody skating now, at the top, who are strong skaters, who are even real World Champion calibre in an off year, and that's not likely to change over the next two years. These are seasoned teams. They're what they are already. The native SKATING talent in most of them (not musicality, not athletically), save the Shibs, is mediocre."
DeleteJust to clarify, I assume by top teams, you mean the teams that have the political support to be in medal contention: PC, CL, CB, WP, and Shibs? If it's that group, then I mostly agree. I wouldn't call WP mediocre per se as they are above PC, CL, and CB. At the same time, they're not near the Shibs. Outside of that group, there are some talented teams out there, but they're not going to be in medal contention at worlds or at worlds at all this year.
"Mediocre" is grading on a curve. VM are once in a lifetime skaters. I believe they're the all time best. At the same time, ice dance has had some truly world class (top of podium) teams competing against each other, and I just don't think that's the case in this cycle. WP are actually doing it, and I respect it. Their programs are legit. Their elements are legit. But they're almost exactly what I'm talking about - the caliber of skating talent there is second rung. It's no knock against them, and I appreciate that they do DO it, and haven't succumbed to the workarounds. Cappellini & Lanotte are athletic and extremely musical, but measured against what I'd consider historically first class ice dancers, their abilities are not first rank.
DeleteVirtue and Moir aren't just first rank, they're the best of all time. The Shibs are the only team that do the fundamentals at first rank level - first quality stroking, speed, ice coverage, freedom of movement, and all the details, using their entire bodies, unison, attack, etc. Mostly with them as with all first rank skaters it comes down to stroking - their stroking is world class in any cycle. WP don't have that.
I would agree with all that except for I would put HD up there in the category as having superb skating skills and stroking. From what I've observed over the past few competitions, Madi actually has better edge control than Maia. Madi and Zach are also well matched (something very few of these top teams have), while doing the "hard stuff" with speed and flow. I do think Shibs earned both wins fairly, but HD shouldn't be disregarded in this current field if we're talking about the best or most capable out there, sans VM.
DeleteWhereas WP seem to be getting worse. They are capable of skating to the level that you have stated , even if what that is may be their peak. Even despite the major obvious issues they had in 4cc free, their overall skating quality (especially in the free this year) has not grown. I see slumping and shallower edges from Andrew, and even less proper technique from Kaitlyn than before. You're definitely right in that WP don't have the basics to allow them to grow or get stronger, and perhaps more importantly, nor do they seem to care.
I need to watch more HD, particularly the elements, so I can have a more honest idea of them.
DeleteI agree they were screwed at 4CC, because at the last minute Chock & Bates were rushed onto the podium, and Weaver & Poje were held up.
Early last season, Kaitlyn Weaver said in an interview that "we may not have the cleanest feet." I think she's probably realistic about their talent as a team, and the two of them are dedicated to making the most of it. They wouldn't be the first team of less than first rank talent to make the most of what they do have, and squeeze every point out of a program to a win. They don't seem driven in that respect, particularly not this season. She does appear to have regressed. Maybe this program asks more of her technique than she can sustain throughout a program. I believe they need really savvy music choices that get into their bodies, help them relax. Their "Statue" program, and their Sound of Music short accomplished that more effectively than subsequent programs. I understand why they put all the detail they do into their programs, but it tends to highlight the stuff they can't pull off.
The "Statue" program and "Sound of Music" appeared to require movement that came much more naturally to each of them. Subsequent programs appear to require movement they don't completely "get" in their bodies.
DeleteI did watch H&D's free from 4CC's 2016 and I think two things are holding them back, although one of them - speed - hasn't stopped other teams from advancing.
DeleteThey're a little stately out there. They don't use as much of the rink as the Shibs. They have lovely, quality stroking that's secure, and soft knees, but the speed hurts. That's just the basic stroking, but then there's stuff like the rotational lift, which was notably slower than the best. I hate stuff like "light and shade", because so often people seem to mean non-skating attributes, but by that I just mean basically working with excellent speed, and then changing up the tempo. Even "slow" sections, when performed by excellent skaters, aren't really "slow. The skaters are usually just sustaining and elongating their glide. HD appear to skate throughout a little slowly and then have brief bursts of stronger energy. I also wish she'd stretch through her entire body, open her hips, her chest and her shoulders.
I have seen HD skate live, and they're certainly capable of good speed and using the entire rink. Their free dance at 4CC was not their best. They struggled with multiple lifts and felt sluggish to me. Too bad. Their short dance there was very well done though, and closer to what I've seen from them as of late.
DeleteOC, how do you rate P/I currently? Short of a miracle, their career is effectively over with the ludicrous P/O situation and then V/M's return, so it's probably a moot point, but they used to be part of the conversation. Before this season, I had hoped they were on the verge of making the step to "first-rate" that the Shibs have, and they certainly have the talent to surpass W/P, but what Gadbois has done with them (and not done with them) has been very frustrating to watch.
DeleteI think both the Shibs and HD lead the current pack in VM's absence. I see things both teams need to work on. I see wonderful skating qualities and elements from both. In recent competitions, Shibs should be above HD. Neither are as good as VM. Of all the teams out there right now, I would make a case for either team above the others that consistently get erroneously placed higher than them. Next year, if everyone continues to skate at the same levels, they should be the 2 on the podium with VM.
DeleteH/D are great, and certainly in the top handful of teams, but I don't see improvement since last season nor do I see them being close to the Shibs at this point. The Shibs have taken a jump forward and no one compares right now except V/M. If anything, I think H/D are less refined with their current coaching. Sluggishness has tended to be a challenge with them, but there is an unevenness to their speed which OC touched on above. It results in switches between sluggish and frantic, but it's hard to know how much is incompetent packaging.
DeleteI agree that there has been no improvement with the new coaching. I also don't like how the program is laid out. I agree they are not consistent. My argument is not comparing them to VM, or saying they are the best. They're not. I'm evaluating them against everyone else out there right now. There are teams that are credited for things they don't do, while HD do, and do them well. If we're looking at the current state, there are many bad teams, and very few standouts. The Shibs are currently the best for this group, and I'm so thankful they're finally getting treated with some respect. No argument there. However, as has been pointed out, they're not VM, and I still see room for improvement. But I don't think it's fair to ignore the teams that have the solid core skating skills, esp in a field where you can skate on flats, 2 feet, or be dragged around by your partner. Of the teams competing, HD should easily beat out everyone else outside of the Shibs, if they skate clean (and many other teams even with mistakes). If we're truly looking at the skating, yes, they have some issues, i.e. speed and consistency. Those are nitpicking over teams like CB, GP, WP, CL, PC, etc., who have much bigger issues, imo.
Delete7:25pm: I also looked at their US Championship fd. It had the same quality basic skating, but in and out of lifts, in particular, look to me almost like a developing pairs team in that it's not labored, as such, because their technique is good, but it's not seamless and it's a bit slow. Also they tend to slow down markedly before and after when they're going to change directions. I really wish she would open up her body, and I wish they as a team ould use more of the rink. They tend to work more inside a smaller elipse with inconsistent speed. That said, they appear to do everything properly, with proper technique, and that should be rewarded more than it is.
Delete7:58pm - PI are in a mess.
DeleteI started watching PI at the beginning of the season, but when she came out in a tutu, as I said awhile ago, I damn near threw in the towel. I believe I understand the rationale for their choices, including that one, but I also don't think either the ISU or judges are brain trusts, not even when it comes to skating, and choices like this year's just give them an excuse to be dismissed.
I liked what they did last season, although it certainly turned out miserably. I know many of their fans hated the fd (I'm working from memory so if I mess up some details I'm happy to be corrected), but my theory was it invited them to fill in the apparent openness with boldness, which their skating needs (not necessarily their performance, but their skating, and I mean bold in very physical ways relating to stroking, using your entire body, holding a shape, commitment, etc.). If that was the idea, it ended up being a little hit and miss.
Still, they did not deserve to be hosed last season, which is how it worked out for them.
I hate using any of the old canards against them, because I respect them, and because so many of their fans are among the actually informed skating fans in the sport. So I feel bad about "tutu", but I'm just putting myself on the other side of the boards and thinking they're not giving anybody any reason to look at them with new eyes.
It's really too bad that the effort to create an internationally successful ice dance center in Canada has settled around Dubreil Lauzon. PI had to do something after last year, but they went somewhere that is the last place on earth likely to create choreography to encourage anyone to see them in a new light. Maybe they can bring in an outside choreographer while still submitting to the new Canadian Ice Dancer Loyalty Oath and training in Montreal.
HD's SD is the better of their two programs this season.
DeleteHD still have work to do, but I think it should be taken into consideration for the long term that they have been skating together far less time than VM and the Shibutanis. VM have been together 18 years and the Shibs 12. HD haven't skated together for even five full years yet. They lost two years to Hubbell's injuries, hip surgery, and recovery. They were in survival mode, trying to train at all or enough to be competing at all. I think it is useful to watch them in their debut season and now to see that even with losing so much time, they have come a long way, and they will continue to improve. It takes time to grow an ice dance team, and they don't have all the years together yet that VM and the Shibs do.
Unlike some of the other posters above, I do think some aspects of their skating have improved with the move to Montreal. I think they're more refined, their skating is a little cleaner, and that their elements seem more secure.
12:23 PM - understood, and thank you for the context. Some of the context is a reminder of things I already knew and didn't take into account, such as her injuries. It took awhile for HD to be on my radar as I didn't follow them until comments from participants I respected began including them in the mix of ice dancers who were being legit.
DeleteI don't mean to harp on the way she engages her body, but I think if she opened up more, strengthened her core, it would help a lot with entrances into and out of elements, in making them seem less deliberate, executing with more confidence. Their skating appears to be grounded in a real ease of movement as skaters at blade level (as that one commentator said, skating seems easy for them). At the moment some of her movement seems to be happening independently of her core instead of initiating from it. Swinging her leg from the hip, while the arms do something else. I wonder if this isn't related to their ease of stroking. Some skaters have to get their alignment and initiating movement from their core in order to even get into the ice in the first place, whereas they, particularly she, do not. So I guess I would like to see what's happening with her blades move up through her body. I also wonder how ambitious they are. Palpable ambition seems like a value add in ice dance judging, although I've not seen it on the score sheets.
Lack of ambition is definitely not a problem with HD. In fact, I'd say that their ambition has led them to make some of the choices they have in the past year or so, switching agents from Tara Modlin to David Baden, launching a sham that seems to be for attention-seeking purposes, and making the move to Gadbois when it seemed that the DSC was falling out of political favor. They, particularly Zach, have been vocal about their goals. Last winter, Zach posted a picture of himself with the bronze medal Jeremy Abbott won with the US team in Sochi. The caption was earning his own was on his to do list. https://www.instagram.com/p/zYvtkkA5DW/ In the Fall of 2014, Madison's surgery basically months behind them and her still in heavy rehab and not being able to train much, they stated their goals were to make the GPF and finish top 2 at nationals. Those goals should have actually been met as they soundly outskated GP at SC and TEB and are a much better team than CB. I can't think of when or where, but I think there have also been references to making the final flight at worlds, dreaming of being the team in the hunted position, and world medals.
Delete4:09PM, one of the things that makes me mental with both GP and CB is how these two teams "take turns" skating. Apart from the sequences that demand they are both using an edge at the same time, there's a lot of sleight of hand. CB uses the DW playbook, GP do a lot of "I'll skate over here and place hold and then you follow me" stuff. It's very unfair when a team like HD decides to meet the challenge of actually dancing together and skating together, which requires they both do it at the same time.
DeleteI agree GP and CB do this the most, but I've noticed WP do it in both programs this year too.... like when Andrew goes into a beautiful choctaw and Kaitlyn just steps forward again. Or maybe that's just Kaitlyn not skating.
DeleteHD has been, since their debut in 2012, IMO, the real US #2 to the Shibs real US #1. They should have been the locks for every 4CC and Worlds team. What happened instead is after Igor and Marina parted ways, DW and CB were held up above both, leaving the Shibs and HD to fight each other for one spot in 2013 and 2014.
DeleteI can't find the 2013 US Nationals SD for HD on youtube, so these are just the FDs, but CB and DW shouldn't have been placed ahead of them anymore than they should have placed ahead of the Shibs.
HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr8DWfFkTIc
CB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MaZrBx73t0
DW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv9M4E8eD8s
Thanks Anon 11:24. To add to your post, I think that Hawayak/Baker should be the real US #3. Instead, they got shit on all season, and I think it's because they are politically out of favour at DSC.
DeleteIt makes no sense that a junk team like CB (and DW before that) are on the podium instead of genuine teams that skate and dance.
Skate Canada is no better; GP and PO have no business being anywhere near the podium; PI have the best skating skills of all the Canadian teams currently competing, and instead find themselves off the World team for no other same reason other than SC has some inexplicable hate-on for them.
It must be demoralizing for all the young teams coming up.
I rewatched CB's skate at the US Nationals. The free is an exercise in running down the clock every bit as much as the free dances of Davis White. Skating is a component of their program instead of the thing you're actually doing. They only skate when it's an element. They both use Dancing with the Stars tricks and sleight of hand.
DeleteAlthough I'm ectatic about the Shibs wins at US Nationals and 4CC, I'm cautious when it comes to the idea that we're entering a climate where the authentically best ice dancers get the best scores.
ReplyDeleteWhen you dig deeper into the scores, the Shibs win at 4CC was due to the technical panel. These are the SD scores from the top 6 teams in the SD.
Team Total TES BV GOE PCS
Shibs 72.86 37.20 29.70 7.50 35.66
WP 72.42 35.36 27.60 7.76 37.06
HD 69.36 35.71 29.10 6.61 33.65
CB 67.05 31.57 25.00 6.57 35.48
GP 63.92 31.73 25.80 5.93 32.19
PO 60.15 31.95 27.60 4.35 28.20
The Shibs had the highest TES, however that was because of the base value awarded by the technical panel. The judges awarded WP 0.26 more in GOE and a PCS that was 1.4 points higher than what the Shibs earned. CB, who finished 4th in the segment with the lowest base value of the top 6 teams, had a PCS that was only 0.18 lower than the Shibs.
These are the scores from the top 7 teams in the FD. The Shibs and HD each had a 1 point deduction for a long lift and PO had a 3 point deduction for a costume malfunction. MR are Muramota and Reed from Japan.
Team Total TES BV GOE PCS
Shibs 108.76 54.92 42.00 12.92 54.84
CB 107.59 52.49 40.50 11.99 55.10
HD 102.93 52.50 42.00 10.50 51.43
WP 101.43 45.89 34.00 11.89 55.54
GP 98.27 49.12 39.00 10.12 49.15
MR 88.70 46.23 39.00 7.23 42.47
PO 86.79 49.41 41.40 8.01 40.38
The Shibs had the TES and tied HD for the highest BV. They earned the most for GOE, but CB earned only 0.93 points less with a skate that had the 4th highest base value. The Shibs PCS was behind both CB and WP. WP had the highest PCS of the night and earned the third highest total for GOE on a very flawed skate that left them with a base value of 34.00. On the night, it was the seventh highest base value, falling behind that of all 3 US teams, the other 2 Canadian teams, and the Japanese team.
There were a few positive things to take away from the event. The top 3 in the SD were correct and in the correct order, even if some of the marks going into those scores were not correct, especially WP having a higher PCS than the Shibs. The Shibs winning the FD and the event was good. There being a 10 point gap between HD and GP was a good thing and the largest gap between them since TEB in 2012. However, after that, it sort of falls apart. CB shouldn't have been on the podium at all, and with the mess that WP's FD was, they should have been behind HD not just in the FD but in the overall standings. The technical panel did their jobs, but the judges held WP up for a skate wasn't there technically.
While the technical panel largely did it's job, and they could have not because we've seen levels gifted or not given in the past, there were still a few suspect things there, notably with PO magically getting the minimum TES for worlds after failing a number of times.
http://twofortheice.tumblr.com/post/139532281132/snapshot-stats-the-story-of-levels-with-detailed
My question is was the Shibs win the result of bigger changes starting in how ice dance gets scored, or was it because this particular technical panel?
Wow, 11:19. This is everything I wanted to say. Thanks!
DeleteI do think overall the Shibs were set up to win anyways (and rightfully so), but I also agree with the fact that there's still screwy scoring happening, and undeserving teams are being held up. HD should have been second. CB off the podium. Larger scoring discrepancies. I'm not convinced yet that everything has been corrected, but I do see this all as going in the right direction. I'm hoping that is what is going on in preparation for VM's return.
11:19, thank you, and your point about TES versus pcs is what keeps that pit in my stomach. Davis White routinely beat VM in pcs when Davis White were being railroaded to gold, and then when the competition would be discussed in the media, the media would explain that VM were better skaters but DW were better technically. It was completely incoherent.
DeleteAs long as the pcs fuckery exists, we know the best skaters can and will be screwed. It's obvious to anyone with eyes that the Shibs have the best pcs, by the definition of pcs, of anybody competing in ice dance this season. Instead the pcs seem to be a reputation score.
For me, at the moment, I'm focusing on the abrupt political switch that allowed the Shibs to win. They were humiliated last season. They were on track to be humiliated THIS season. Then abruptly their Fed allowed them to become US champions; they soundly defeated the team that defeated them at Skate Canada (the Shibs, like all the ice dance teams at 4CCs, didn't have their best skate there either), and they continued to best CB.
HD definitely should have been on the podium and Chock Bates should not have made it.
Reading some of the skating forums, I'm reminded again that figure skating often attracts the sort of fan for whom the actual skating is the least interesting aspect of figure skating. How on earth can anyone there - but they do - believe that Chock & Bates are "faster" than the Shibs? No ice dancers currently competing are as fast as the Shibs. Their run of blade is spectacular.
Deletewhere can i see the embedded video? doesnt play
DeleteIt's from youtube. Here's a direct link:
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1e19e9u7SE
I call it the coldplay effect, who can say no to chris martin? literally, the sport is trying to fix itself.
ReplyDeletejoking aside, but not really, the sport is trying to save itself. low attendance, noone cares, etc. this is all to save the sport.
Last season was dire. The sport had become beyond pre-determined, the skating was rote, it became difficult to watch the few teams that still pretended it mattered what they did. I still take to heart a comment I read last year or even the year before - that those who matter in the sport - the officials/exec, don't really want to broaden the appeal of the sport. They like their little fiefdom. Of course if nobody cares, and the skaters even stop caring as much as they ought to, if the skaters who stick it out REALLY continue to skate just for themselves while shrugging off results because they know it's futile, that might make the fiefdom less fun.
DeleteThere is still an incredible amount of garbage pumped out by everyone in the comment booth, mashing up what is supposed to be actual scoring stuff with ephemeral bullshit.
Fix You is the only Coldplay song I like, but for me, musically, it's the section from the Scientist that makes the program as entertainment. It's a wonderful sort of breathing space in the program where you can just sit with the skating and watch it before momentum and elements start happening again.
Yeah...V/M are going to lose the OGM to P/C in 2018. P/C are the hot new thing and the judges are 500% setting them up to win gold based on how ridiculous their scores have been. V/M are largely perceived to be old news.
ReplyDeleteHere's a commentary-free video of US Nationals...skip to the 29th minute:
ReplyDeletehttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XYpFmjKQoXk&feature=youtu.be&t=1778
God bless you. :)
DeleteTruly, it was making me crazy.
My pleasure, OC! The only useful thing I've ever found on FSU :-)
Delete:)
Delete"Davis-White, who won gold at the 2014 Sochi Games, will be hailed for their long-term service to figure skating. "
ReplyDeleteSurely, they mean "long-term DISERVICE to figure skating. Puke.
http://espn.go.com/olympics/figureskating/story/_/id/14832372/olympic-ice-dance-champs-meryl-davis-charlie-white-honored
And, surely, you mean DISSERVICE. Di-service makes no sense. You did manage to spell "puke" correctly.
DeleteNot everyone here is a native English speaker. Are the DW fans already crawling in here or are you just rude? With all that Meryl has said about dyslexia, you'd think you wouldn't nitpick a missing letter.
DeleteIt was the ISU that did the disservice to the sport at the end of the day. But we all know it just about takes actual human rights violations for corruption in a sport to be vetted.
DeleteAgreed. And it's not as if D/W cared a bit about the human rights violations going on in Russia at the time of the Sochi Olympics. Oh yes, that's right, it was just "semantics" to them.
DeleteLooking back, that was really obnoxious. Human rights is not about cultural choices. Skating didn't cover itself with glory in 2014 on a number of levels, and one was the inability of skaters to say they were in conflict. That's really it in a nutshell: "I hate this, and I probably shouldn't participate, but I've worked my entire life to go to the Olympics, so I'm going. I don't know what else to do." American skaters wouldn't even have had to do that, because President Obama gave them plenty of cover by assigning Brian Boitano and Billie Jean King to the delegation (think it was the delegation). Therefore, participating became "We are not going to stop advocating for human rights simply because we're in Russia. We hope to have a positive impact and give encouragement to those up against it over there. It makes me grateful again to be from the country where I live." And so forth.
DeleteInstead DW came across like "We have to respect what they've chosen to do." Jesus, no you do not.
If anyone can post a link to VM's skate niagra performance tonight here that would be amazing!!!!
ReplyDeleteThis is their What's Love Got To Do With It program :
Deletehttps://youtu.be/C8k_3chprr0
This is just a Show program but it honestly looks so much better than anything the current teams put out on the ice.
Tessa skates better on her knees than many ice dancers today do on their blades.
Delete