Meryl and Maks preview rehearsal:
Charlie and Sharma preview rehearsal:
Nobody uploaded Charlie and Sharna to youtube
Maks/Sharna: Who has the edge, you or Charlie/Meryl?
Meryl/Charlie: Charlie/Meryl.
Maks/Sharna: Let's rehearse a bit!
Maks/Sharna: Not too bad, but there is room for improvement.
Maks/Sharna: But you can spin/flex your legs, can you not?
Meryl/Charlie: I mean, well <shrug> like this, or should it be one foot or two? I can't really do the splits but maybe you mean kinda this?
Maks/Sharna:
Meryl Charlie: So that was okay?
*****
We're going to be choking down a lot of humble bragging on this show, aren't we?
"Yes." [modest shrug] "We can move our bodies on the floor just like everybody from novice on up! It's no wonder we got gold."
Depending on your rooting interest/and or interest in seeing Meryl actually dance (versus being told she's actually dancing), this is concerning:
Meryl's hips are tight and she mostly seems to be changing around her feet placement as Maks dips her from various angles, versus "dancing." She's not using her torso, core - only limbs. She's a knees down and shoulders out type of dancer. But we shall see. It is only a snippet.
And Charlie:
Sharna seems to throw herself into performance. I'm wondering if Charlie will attempt to actually engage (his body language seems a little eh up there), and if he doesn't, if he'll be called out on it or if the judges will just pretend he did it, just like when he skates.
P.S. Apparently Meryl said dancing is hard cause you're "stuck" on the floor. I disagree. I think you can hop, scurry, skip and knee slide on the floor just as well. Granted, Maks and Sharna are not Derek, and Derek can get away with giving his partners 7 seconds of the actual footwork while filling in the rest with lunging, sliding, running on tip-toes and hopping. But perhaps for this one season, they'll both be honorary Dereks.
P.S. - Wow, Erin Andrews has an incredibly annoying voice.
Meryl's done. Let's take a look.
A few gifs:
Gold medal dance talent right there. I don't think she's actually balancing herself at any point once Maks starts with the turning and dipping from different angles. She places her feet, but her feet aren't holding her up.
I'm shocked, shocked that she has so much rhythm, except for the part where she has none whatsoever.
Granted, it's not a good song. But cha cha has built in rhythm. It's very basic.You can follow the rhythm of the cha cha through your body even if your music is ass.There's no rhythm in Meryl. Everything is one-note, and the feet are as clunky as they are on the ice.
I gifed this because of the mini body undulating thing at the end there. See even there - why didn't Maks break it down? She initiates the move with her freaking head, followed by her shoulder. You initiate that thing with your open chest - the movement is centered in your upper body, and your head follows.You don't bend your head and almost head butt him, substituting your clavicles at the last minute. She's not dancing. She's just racing through this sucker with scurrying, half-finished, short-stepped feet.
Of course, let's give her a break. We can't expect her to be like this guy:
This guy had years of not working before finally getting his big break showing his sizeable penis in a major motion picture. How can an Olympic gold medal winning ice dancer, who has spent seventeen years mastering dance forms, phrasing, proper rhythm, timing, control of her body, working closely on and off ice with a partner, sparing no expense bringing on board the best dance training money can by while fine tuning her and her partner in and out of hold, not to mention earning a reputation for the fastest (and of course, cleanest, going by all those L4 key points and step sequences) feet, possibly match that sort of impact right off the bat? Give Meryl some time.
Okay, she sucked.
I'm not going to recap Charlie until tomorrow, but I do have to say this:
 |
| ZOMG! Eye contact! |
Do you see how close he is to her face? Yet he's looking at her actual eyes!
I've seen a whole bunch of contemporary on DWTs that's about the level Charlie unleashed tonight. A "good job!" effort from somebody youngish, fit, with a movement training background. But, whereas Meryl was DW mode in all the WTFery that implies, Charlie was more or less doing it - he had bigger, clearer movements, he phrased the music a bit and observed tempo changes with his body, and he connected with his partner, all of which he never managed or appeared to even try in seventeen years with Meryl. My world is rocked, and I guess Charlie's lucky there are no blades to rock on a dance floor.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN??
Let's face it. The main reason this is interesting to skating fans, and those who have watched DW b.s. their way across the "sport" for the years of their senior career, is to use DWTs to try and figure out - whose fault is it. Is it a perfect storm of equal shortcoming suckitude? Or does one suck particularly and the other had to adapt themselves to match, thus perhaps working "one down" all this time as a result? I'll tell you what it's looking like right now.
___________________
P.S. - I take it back about Erin Andrews - as the evening goes on she's actually engaged, not robotically braying, and she can think on her feet. So I put her in the plus column. She gets it done.
P.P.S. - Candace Bure manages her body better than Meryl. She uses her entire body, has better alignment, and better control of her limbs.
Meryl will win DWTS. ABC is invested in them winning. They are flying Maks around the US so that Meryl can tour with SOI and yet keep practicing. Maks has all ready put forward interviews saying that Meryl has made him a better person, and you will see less drama from him this year, etc. Finally, ABC has 4 skating shows scheduled starring Meryl and Charlie, and I'm sure they'll want to have some viewers -- what better way than to get a bunch of people interested by making Meryl the winner?
ReplyDeleteMeryl is going to get such a fabulous edit throughout the show that D/W fans will be absolutely insufferable. Yay!!!
But isn't that Maks' interview every single time he's part of the cast? "Made me a better person" and "Kinder, gentler me?"
Deletehow typical this competition is rigged just like figure skating!
DeleteI don't know if it's rigged for Meryl or not, but ABC has frequently flown its pros around the US when they're country stars on tour, Disney stars on tour, an Osmond on tour, or Evan Lysacek touring with SOI (I remember his pro partner Anna lamenting that she got to be in the D.C. Four Seasons for only a couple of hours and it was one of the nicest hotels she'd ever been).
DeleteWell, Donny won and Evan took second place, so I have to think there's something to ABC making that kind of investment.
DeleteSara Evans and "the other Mario" also had their partners following them around on tour and they didn't come close to winning.
DeleteP.S. - and apparently Derek Hough was shipped to Sochi while Amy Purdy competed there in the para-Olympics. He ended up doing the filming as well, because as soon as he got his visa, Ukraine happened, and the DWTs crew wasn't able to get visas.
DeleteOh, is that way a lot of the camerawork in their fluff piece was selfie-style? That's fascinating, actually.
DeleteThanks for the info OC about Derek Hough going to Sochi for the Para-Olympics - which means that Amy Purdy has actually had less preparation time than all the other contestants including DW. So let's see if Derek can pull a couple of more tricks up his sleeve - as I can imagine he was probably inspired by the para-olympians...go Amy!
DeletePurdy was really good. She carries herself like a dancer. She seems to have great natural alignment - she's lifted through her pelvis and chest but her shoulders are settled, she can isolate her hips and move them fluidly and the fluidity carries through to her legs and feet. I know her feet are prosthetic but what they're doing is driven from her hip action. She's really really talented. Derek is so smart. He showed off all of this, and found creative ways to relieve whatever pressure soreness she may have been feeling from dancing with prosthetics - him getting into a besti while she rocked on his knee was particularly clever.
DeleteI watched Purdy/Hough's routine. I'm liking what I've seen thus far. I think I want to root for them.
DeleteI read an article that said that although Derek worked with M/C, M/C were aware that stars are not allowed to request a pro, therefore neither did. Which obviously means - at least one them did. Probably Meryl, since I don't see which female pro would even be the standout that Charlie would want.
ReplyDeleteI also read one with Max explaining how he had to be wooed back to the show, and was offered to be a judge instead, and eventually settled on competing. I read that as he threw a diva tantrum and wouldn't do it unless he got a ringer.
I also noticed Sharna was commenting that they couldn't have given Meryl to Derek because of the backlash.
My take on it was Derek wanted Meryl and vice versa, Max wanted a ringer, but the producers didn't want backlash. So they give Max Meryl, to soothe his ego and help him rehab his image, while Derek gets the ultimate anti-ringer, a girl with no legs.
They've kept the rules of the partner switch vague. If it turns out Amy Purdy can dance, it will be a one night only affair, and Amy and Derek will get back together and win. If it turns out Max can't choreograph for Meryl and Amy is unlikely to win, the partner switch will be permanent, Derek will be put with Meryl, and Meryl will win. And since the new partners are viewers' choice (yeah, right), nobody can say the producers gave Derek a ringer again.
GO AMY PURDY!!!
There was a time I would've thought Derek winning AGAIN would be overkill, but after the shameless promotion of Amber Riley last season - who sat on a chair for half the performance when she was injured - it wouldn't surprise me.
What? Stars can so request a pro and have all the time. Depending on the clout of the celeb, they get their pro or they don't. Some celebs made their participation contingent upon getting the pro they wanted. If you don't have much celeb wattage, you can request and not get your request (such as the time Macy Gray requested Maks and got Jonathan. However, you can definitely, positively request.
DeleteCharlie should have gotten Cheryl Burke, because gold medal or no she'd have kicked his ass and made him perform. If Meryl had gotten Derek he'd have just had her do shapes and staccato moves and done visual tricks similar to those employed when Marina choreographs for DW.
Exactly, so of course DW made it a point to say it's not allowed and they didn't do it.
Delete"I'm shocked, shocked that she has so much rhythm, except for the part where she has none whatsoever."
ReplyDeleteBut according to the judges, Meryl is perfect in every way!
Meryl must be truly magical. She is able to make any judge believe she's the best. I wonder what would happen if she entered gymnastics at the next Summer Olympics as a lark. Would she walk off with the all-around gold medal?
Um, but they didn't think she was the best. She's tied for 3rd.
DeleteIf these were ice dance judges she'd be in first, of course, because Maks gave her a DW program - have her (or, when DW, them) do a whole bunch of stuff badly really fast. It works in ice dance.
DeleteThis is Maks' MO. He doesn't edit. If somebody can do something, even if it's those wide stepped, off center spins (her whole body was like the Leaning Tower of Pisa), he's going to put that in. The fact that she did a mediocre job FAST is something he thinks is impressive.
The pros that succeed edit like crazy. They don't use anything that doesn't look good. Maks thinks if they can do it at all, never mind doing it well - throw it in. Here, he threw in a bunch of stuff because she's fast and fit. But she's sloppy and has no rhythm and all of that underscored it.
And again - no different in any way whatsoever than her winning ice dance performances.
Also, Maks is using cha cha's rhythm and she's not, and he didn't drill her to fake the timing well enough. You see him phrase his body and she doesn't. She totally stepped on his highlight move - where she does the turn series and he drops his arm, looks at the audience, and his body language says "Damn." she didn't take that beat or play off that moment, so it didn't work. She just blew right through it.
DeleteThis was just like all the DW programs where by the time they got to the end of the season, all of Marina's carefully embedded highlight beats had flattened out.
How would a pro have taken that beat/played off that moment? Some sort of flourish?
DeleteObserve it in their body. The beat shows in the timing - the timing that's actually reactive off that moment (even if rehearsed, it can be done organically every time if you actually use it every time). Meryl is like a robot out there, she's not taking anything in.
DeleteYou don't need to be a pro to take that beat/play off that moment. You need to be musical/have rhythm and in the moment.
oc
"WHAT DOES IT MEAN??"
ReplyDeleteIt means Charlie is going to get kicked off the show sooner than Meryl.
You think so? There was nothing for the memory book in his performance but he was better than she was, so a higher score was justified. OTOH they have scored people high before to keep the suspense going when they're not pulling the viewer vote.
DeleteYes, I think he'll be kicked off first. Len as good as told him so. As soon as he gets more ballroom like dances, they'll be looking at him more carefully. Meryl will get a pass.
DeleteNo, Len did not good as told him so. He said for an ice dancer that was a piece of cake.
DeleteTrue - for the sort of ice dancer Charlie has been. Which isn't dancing, but adagio acrobatics. Step step lift, shape, step turn, make a shape, lift. Still it was interesting to see the "DW lift" done with somebody who could manage her own body in space and only needed an assist and pivot point to change position, and could also phrase it. That meant Charlie could adjust his alignment and hit a line himself because there was no clutching and clinging.
I think he also lucked out with a better partner assignment than Meryl. Before this is over Meryl will be in the same position as all of Maks' partners, making him soup and reassuring him that it's okay they're sucking.
Meryl really has only one setting - robot. Out of kilter, speed setting faster than skill level. She and Maks appeared to have a nice dynamic in the non-dance byplay, enough to make you think well if she has a partner who looks at her while they dance and treats her like she's actually there, it might actually influence how she performs. But it looks to me that the reason her other partner never looks at her is she only has that one setting and what would be the point. She's not home, anyway.
DeleteYou hit the nail on the head with true precision, OC. "Meryl really has only one setting - robot. Out of kilter, speed setting faster than skill level." Now that you write that, I've figure out what Meryl's performance reminds me of---the scene from the terrible remake of "The Stepford Wives," (SPOILER ALERT!) where Faith Hill's robot character goes beserk, dancing faster and faster and becoming out of control, until she finally drops onto the floor in a heap, pathetically sparking and lifting her head up and down, all the while keeping an idiotic smile on her face. That's EXACTLY what Meryl reminded me of, in that first GIF. (Does that make her a Stepford Skater, one who seemingly goes through the motions to convince you that she is, indeed a an ice dancer, but in actuality, is nothing of the kind? Hey, I think I coined a phrase in "Stepford Skater," but you are free to commandeer it anytime!) You truly made me laugh out loud this morning, OC!
Delete"Still it was interesting to see the "DW lift" done with somebody who could manage her own body in space and only needed an assist and pivot point to change position, and could also phrase it. That meant Charlie could adjust his alignment and hit a line himself because there was no clutching and clinging."
DeleteIf only Meryl had trained lifts properly in her career, if only DW knuckled down and actually did dance training... For a first effort, Charlie's was good.
There is so much wrong with how Meryl moves I really wonder if dance training would have been the answer. There's her bizarre inability to manage her body in space despite weighing nothing and being ferociously fit. She can't even extend her own limbs and hold them when her core is locked down by her partner. She can't transition at all. She can't do two things at once - transition and skate. And then there's her chipped up, foot flicking, sloppy any-which-way foot and skate placement. With her feet on the ground or on the ice, there are problems. When she transitions on the ice from this to that, there are problems. But when her feet are off the ice or ground, she has to be girdled by her partner close to her center of gravity, can't maintain herself in space for more than an instant and, strangest of all, with can't extend an unsupported limb. There are awful ice dancers who can do those things.
DeleteOC, could it be that the issue with Meryl is that there's really only so much that dance training could do? Maybe physical limits? I mean, take for example ballet dancers' turnout -- not every ballerina is born with good turnout, and these ones (not genetically blessed) work on it for years, but the extent of improvement has limits. Not every skater had Sasha Cohen's flexibility. Maybe part of Meryl's problems are due to the structure of her body or something.
DeleteDistributing your center of gravity is something that can be trained. I don't think it has anything to do with body structure or conformation. Body structure can control how flexible you are, how much amplitude you get (for example, Bryce Davison really struggled to get hip flexibility), but it should not control something like distributing your weight, because that's technique. Technique can be taught. I think some people think Meryl's feet are "precise" because she has skinny legs and small feet and makes small, quick movements, but her foot placement and the angles of her feet are all over the map. Her body is incredibly stiff - she doesn't extend from her hips at all. All of that is something that can be taught. If you look at the video in the post below, it's a lift technique video. Obviously to execute, you need to be fit, strong and in shape, but after that, it's technique. I'm amazed at how little she can do in motion. Standing still, both feet planted on the ground, okay. In motion, needs resistance, stability, support. But that doesn't explain the weirdness in the air. She's got a core. Her hips are obviously flexible because if they weren't they couldn't be pulled and held in the position they're in (if you're not super flexible, nobody can push or hold you into a split without hurting you or straining ligaments). She just can't hold it there herself. It's beyond bizarre. and completely obvious on ice as on the floor. It was just that until the two of them were separated, it was difficult to see whose issue it really was. Based on last night, it seems to be Meryl's. On top of that, no rhythm at all.
DeleteNext week, we'll see, but does not seem to be an improvement. Meryl's dance is swing, which, while having a lot of lifts, also calls for tons of rhythm and fluidity. Not choppy, tight movements. I am looking for Maks to just toss her around a lot and a few pro forma steps in between, and it will look an awful lot like the cha cha (tight, one note, moving through the rhythm).
Charlie will have frame (shoulders/hips/chest) and feet challenges in tango. A lot of guys go side of the feet and pigeon toed. I'll be interested to see how musical he really is without Meryl. If he IS musical without her, it will help.
oc
I have to say it again - Meryl is a mess. Two singles skaters have competed on DWTs - Kristi Yamaguchi and Evan Lysacek. Neither one had "dancer" as part of the job description. Both obviously had some movement/dance training to help them mature and refine their movement from the ankles up. As well as they both performed on DWTs, it was obvious neither was a trained dancer as such. But they both had fantastic mechanics. Kristi had a pairs background (I think she was National champion with Rudy Galindo) but even Evan had great mechanics. Bio mechanics is basically understanding anatomy and how your body was designed to move. It's not "style". There's not a style reason you're supposed to work from your core.
DeleteEverything Meryl does is assbackwards, and that's not driven by her body. Her body - nobody's body - is designed to move in the stunted way she moves her body, and the way she compensates for stunted movement.
I was actually surprised at how well Charlie did because I always thought he was the weaker dancer--he looked so wooden on the ice, more so than Meryl. But the first part was beautiful and I agree, he did actually work with the music's phrasing and showed he could actually move and do it without making everything look the same. Maybe he is so focused on carrying more of the work load when he skates that he can't show that. I think that the latter half was too focused on lifts (i know it is contemporary but still) and he looked a bit unsteady there (his arms wavered) and sometimes like he didn't know what to do with his body and his feet looked mismatched in the final lift aka. DW's choreographic lift from Shez, and were too flat in the dance. Still, though, I was pleasantly surprised and liked his performance. Way overmarked, of course. DJ Tanner was much better.
ReplyDeleteMeryl was better than I thought she would be. In the move you gif'd above, I thought she would be stiffer and not move her torso at all. so that move was much better than i thought it would be, and her hold wasn't as bad as i expected (i thought she would be clinging even harder). The off-kilter turns were so noticeable and her legs aren't strong enough but she hid that well by making flashier movements with the face and upper body. Still, though, I really thought she would be even stiffer than she was so i was impressed in that sense. overmarked for sure. On DWTS they often don't care about rhythm and hip movement in the cha cha, as long as the routine is exciting with lots of quick movements. They might as well be ice dance judges.
I think Candace and Danica are much better, though, and hope they get marked fairly (Candace was robbed of the lead she deserved tonight).
But in that move she's completely bastardized the technique. She's sticking her head in front, then her shoulder, then her chest follows. You actually initiate that movement with your upper body (chest). It doesnt' take a rocket scientist - it's a see and do thing. A ladies' rumba class could be taught it going over it once. How come she did it that way?
Delete10:30 here
DeleteI agree that that move was not performed correctly, I was just surprised it wasn't worse. Something that bugs me so much about Meryl's ice dancing is the complete lack of movement in the torso. She stays so stiff and does nothing with the torso. At least in that movement in the gif, though it was (incorrectly) initiated with the head instead of the chest, she moved her torso and butt at some point during that move. I actually thought that was the best moment in the performance because the other issues were more glaring to me. In other parts of the performance she tensed up the torso, the leg and foot action was very weak, no hip action to speak of, and no rhythm.
In addition to her turns being off kilter, she kept both knees bent. She should have kept one bent and straightened the other.
She also seems to have trouble keeping her legs underneath her. I don't get that at all. Maybe any type of choreographed movement sequence is beyond her skill set without external support.
DeleteIt's like to keep any kind of balance in unsupported choreographic steps she has to squat. I'm not talking about her leg line, which is bowed. A gazillion figure skaters (not to mention supermodels) have bowed legs. But she actually has to squat to lower her center of gravity (literally lower it by getting down, and she's tiny) and wide-stepping to create a larger base of stability.
DeleteI didn't think Charlie's performance was particularly great. He hid his short comings well but the majority of his dance was running-lift-pose-repeat. There was no real connection of movements and there were visible breaks.
ReplyDeleteIt was a lot better than anything DW have ever done.
Meryl's dance was typical DW fare : fast, sloppy and meaningless.
But they tried everything to make her popular. Everybody constantly had to assure the audience just how great Meryl is and they even padded her bra ...
Do these judges ever really criticize somebody or are they always this hyper ?
Yeah, I saw the breaks. He doesn't know how to connect the movements throughout, but I thought the first section was quite good. He actually used his body. he is usually so wooden.
DeleteMeryl needs to learn to use her hips and work at different speeds. one-dimensional and did not feel like a cha cha. just quick, quick, quick, quick, everything quick.
But i am excited that this show could teach them to dance (something they should have learned long ago as top-ranked ice dancers).
forgot to add, they do criticize some competitors while showering others with undeserved praise. There is usually at least one competitor who dances really well but is under-marked and over-criticized and at least one judges' pet who can do no wrong in the judges' eyes. a lot like figure skating, especially ice dance
DeleteWell, with Charlie I'm comparing on ice Charlie to on the floor Charlie, not Charlie to other DWTs dancers so much. As far as that dance goes, he was about as okay as any physically fit actor with a middling movement background has been on the show - nothing a cut above. And it was phrases stitched together - you could see the stilted in some of the transitions, but that's common with most DWTs celeb competitors.
DeleteHowever, I was surprised that he was engaged with and worked off his partner - he was free in that respect and made more of a commitment to that engagement than he ever has on the ice, where he and Meryl work apart and depend upon the choreography to create the intersection between their totally separate way of working.
He was able to observe a tempo variation with his body using the same natural rhythm as his partner. The whole thing was more organic - he used all of himself, instead of a rote setting. That was new.
What is truly eye-opening is there was this immediate change simply by switching partners. I don't know if this would improve his skating. But his movement style became immediately more grounded. I don't think it was because they rehearsed their asses off either.
Meryl, OTOH, had a partner who was working like crazy to work with her in ways we haven't perceived Charlie to do in the past, and .. nothin. Same rote rote rote.
In Gordeeva's book she talks about how her partner, Sergei Grinkov, had to match his stroke to hers, so that throughout their career he was never able to take a natural stroke/step. Now, she's textbook, and also exceptionally deep in the ice with powerful smooth run of blade, so if you're a guy trying to match to a girl, you can't get better than that, and still, she says it was unnatural for Grinkov.
Basically I just wonder if Charlie's movement style became corrupted all of this time because his partner can't phrase for shit and is just so unstable on her feet and in space. She's just a straight, undifferentiated line - she's as mono-speed ROTE as it gets. If you're matching that, you aren't going to be breathing through the music, or connecting with your body's natural movement. It's going to be difficult to "let your body do it" because your entire job is compensation. I wonder if that's what happened to Charlie. He was much more relaxed working with someone who can handle herself.
In terms of performance dynamic, I thought Carrie Anne (who can be as insipid as they come) did hit something on point when she said it was sort of a role reversal. I never knew that "ying" stood for something specific and "yang" stood for something specific - just thought they meant opposites, but you learn something new every day. However, I think what she was saying is that traditionally, the male has the powerful energy and the woman has the complementary, responsive energy, but in the contemporary dance Charlie and Sharna did, it was the opposite and it worked.
All this time DW have been trying to squeeze themselves into the classic leading man/leading woman role where the guy is the leader and "protector". A lot of effortful costuming and gesticulation gets pasted into the programs to make it sell, because this dynamic just isn't between the skaters. But mostly I think with Meryl you've got the one thing she can do on the ice and their entire career has been built around her scurrying.
12:01 - Meryl and Maks were really out of tune because he was phrasing the rhythms and she was one note. We're used to the guy (Charlie) using the same one note she uses. Maks was doing it properly but it really highlighted her complete lack of rhythm.
DeleteWithin a certain spectrum, the judging has become completely bogus.
DeleteO/T but the blog get a little shout-out at 2:32 ;-)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Yo3YLSUPvbs
They aren't giving the blog a shout-out. It's never said V/M live a secret life no one knows about. It's said that plenty of people know V/M are married with a child and that it isn't some closely guarded secret, which is true.
DeleteIf V/M are giving anyone a "shout-out" in that interview, it's the fans (or people V/M know personally) who believe or help spread their lies to the public. Only those who claim V/M are *not* married with a child use the "sekret married life and baby no one has ever seen!" language.
Dear God, I was joking...see the wink?
DeleteThey are the whiniest. So put upon. Are they set in permanent self-pity victim mode? The tone with "We do have a deep love for each other" is almost sullen, like "Yeah, I said it, we do. Okay?" Okay, and of course they have to work up to it by holding it at arm's length first "Yeah, we have this great love for each other - I think it's over here somewhere in this drawer." because "We love each other" is too first person. Best to say we "have" it, like it's this thing.
DeleteAll the stuff they listed too - "people want to categorize us, they say it's brother and sister, or like a marriage, or we have this secret life nobody knows" oh shut up. And I notice they didn't say "and they're all wrong!" They just recited what people think and then talked about how unique, without saying it wasn't a marriage.
I don't think it was a blog shout out, but at the same time, while it's obvious the Moirs are aware of the blog, I don't think they sit and read every word, and if they did, I'm not sure they'd recognize some of the distinctions made here, so "secret life nobody knows about" might be the takeaway. That's also an easier way to reference the talk without saying "People say we are actually married with a kid and don't talk about it for the record but the reality is our skating community and everybody we know already knows about it." I think "secret" is shorthand. They're not wordsmiths, those two.
It's the whining that is so ridiculous. They're the ones lying their faces off, and then they sit there acting like "there, I said it! I don't care if anybody likes it or not!" about "having a love for each other." Good for you, Scott and Tessa.
Meryl's facial expressions are awful...just like her fake, sucking-on-a-lemon expressions when she is on the ice. And the way she throws out her elbows is awkward. Everything about her is awkward.
ReplyDeleteI find Meryl almost completely unwatchable solely because of her facial expressions. On SYTYCD, one of the things they go after the dancers for is how they pull their face while dancing. I wish someone would bitch at Meryl about that.
DeleteAnnoying or not annoying, I don't find facial expressions relevant in ice dance if everything else is on point. Here, on DWTs, we see every deficiency in Meryl's "technique" on blast. The stiff. The imprecision. The lack of control. The inability to dance on time with the proper rhythm. All of this relates to how she moved on the ice, and yet got world record scores and sky high pcs. Her feet were not precise on the ice in skates. She didn't use rhythm - absolutely everything was one-dimensional. She never displayed control, but rushed through everything and her movements were unfinished. She was an ice DANCER and was stiffer on the ice than many singles skaters, with poorer skating skills than many skaters who simply jump between elements (at least many of those skaters can stroke cleanly).
DeleteShe is the weirdest. She can't sustain anything. She can't control a transition. She can only rush through everything, and, as said before, do a repertoire of things badly done, done quickly.
oc
"There's a new effort lead by BlueRidge on that thread that says that V/M fans are building a case by trying to prove that V/M deserved to win rather than just looking at all the evidence. What evidence are we ignoring exactly? What"
ReplyDeleteAnd I take this to mean that DW fans ARE looking at all the evidence? Can she tell me where they are doing this? And, um, BlueRidge, a lot of the fans are looking at all the evidence and concluding that VM deserved to win. And they are using the evidence to show that VM deserved to win. I don't know why she is treating looking at all the evidence and trying to prove that VM deserved to win as separate things.
btw, someone here said recently that BlueRidge threatened someone on FSU. Is that true? What did she say?
When people present evidence of DW missing key points that they were given credit for, they are told the evidence is doctored. When they show pictures of DW's poor form, they are told that those are exceptions and that every ice dancer has a few bad shots (they are ignoring that with DW it is not just a few shots--you are hard pressed to find good shots of them). Someone tried to respond by posting a pic of Tessa mid-transition or about to do a transition and said it was similar because her free leg wasn't extended and foot wasn't pointed. not at all the same thing. she is not expected to have her free leg extended there, she is expected to have control of her body, which she does. in the bad shots of DW, it is not just that they are unflattering/spontaneous shots--they show a lack of control that you can observe in motion by watching their skating. People have presented descriptions of key points and other aspects of the technical manual and the rulebook for judges, they have shown photo and video evidence, they have described in detail what is going on, all to have it dismissed as the ramblings of a crazy uber. It is clear to me that when people like BlueRidge ask for evidence, they are not interested in considering that evidence. The request is part of the lame argument they are making.
DeleteI don't think Blueridge knows what "evidence" means. She confuses evidence with "outcome". It's not the same.
Deleteoc
I think Candace Bure will be competitive. Interestingly, her husband Valerie Bure - former hockey player did Battle of the Blades with Gordeeva and did well. After a couple of weeks - I can imagine the ABC executives seeing that she has a winning demographic. But overall this cast is weak...hell I would totally want Candace's husband to hit the ice with either Sean Avery - the former hockey goon, Meryl or Charlie because he can skate circles around all of them.
DeleteI also have to laugh at Meryl's quote indicating that the dance floor is more difficult to move than ice. O boy - hasn't Tessa said repeatedly that certain dances/rhythms are a challenge to translate onto the ice.... because Meryl has been so successful in translating latin or a tango on ice...insert sarcasm....
DeleteWith regards to Charlie, he had a respectable first outing. But what will be really interesting to see if he improves dramatically - that means to me is that he really didn't push himself over the last 4 years as an ice-dancer and that he knew that post 2012 - that basically he didn't need to improve to be guaranteed a win. To me that speaks volumes...If you take a look over the last quad - Scott, Fabian, Andrew, Luca, Nikita, Alex Shibutani, Deveidas Stagnuinas, etc for instance have upped their dance skills. Hell even Paul Poirier can dance...so while everyone is taking shots at Meryl, I can't say that I am that impressed by Charlie...yes Meryl may not be the strongest partner - but I think we have seen plenty of strong male ice dancers without the greatest female partners still manage to dance and bring something to the table besides the hair flickering...
DeleteGood point about Charlie, and the only hesitation I have in agreeing is that Meryl is so deficient in terms of security and stablizing herself that his entire performance has to match her rote way of moving, and everything he does has to compensate for her and manage her security on the ice and in lifts because she can't do it herself.
DeleteHere, we have much more than a partner of greater ability matched with a partner of lesser ability - a guy deep in the ice and a partner with edges that are shallow. Meryl's shortcomings really make her sui generis in not just ice dance, but all of figure skating, in the type of shortcomings they are. She has so MANY. They go to her fundamental movement mechanics, her lack of technique - her faked up technique to compensate for poor technique, and whatever it is where she can't get her torso and limbs to work together. It's like her torso is always taking off (stiffly) and her legs have to scramble to keep up or get stuck. And she has no rhythm at all. And an incredibly stiff and stilted torso.
Look at what Charlie said about working with Sharma - that she broke it down and made him look good. Shit, she had him looking at her. Charlie worked with the same woman for seventeen years and nobody broke it down? They were killing themselves trying to juice up the connection with narrative bullshit and erotic touching and nothing happened, all because Charlie didn't push himself? I don't think so.
I think they tried everything and have an immoveable object in Meryl. That's it with her. One setting. She can only make that setting more or less hyper, make it so she can do that in her sleep, but there's nothing else she can do.
I think he had the most static partner in all of figure skating - that's what it looks like at the moment, and all of his energy (and hers) was directed towards making it appear they were actually doing something. Taking two dimensions and making it fake three.
In Maks, Meryl has a partner that is the absolute opposite of what we think Charlie is - he's handsy, he clings, he works it, he has plenty of rhythm, he likes working the audience, he needs to feel as if his partner likes him, he'll dance for two if he has to, and he likes creating sexual chemistry - and what did he accomplish with Meryl besides teaching her the routine? Not a damn thing. That's the same girl she is on the ice - absolutely no difference.
Charlie worked with someone else and there was an immediate difference in a few things - his internal rhythm and ability to vary his rhythm. His ability to sustain a through line emotionally - to remain connected and engaged - even if he doesn't have the technique/chops for smooth transitions between choreographic elements. An ability to actually work off his partner in the moment. A much better ability to use his entire body when moving. It's almost as if he's locked down when he partners Meryl.
Good points anon at 5:42 pm - but think about a couple of things. On the ice - Charlie is the leader with Meryl - he is dragging her, lunging, doing the work on the lifts...but without enjoyment...here his partnered with someone on the floor and Sharma is the leader...she is going to make him look good - she will break down everything for him and she will give him visual cues for positive reinforcement - hence the reason he is looking at her...(besides the fact that she is very attractive woman). On the ice - Charlie and Meryl have recycled elements since 09...there was no need for eye communication...it was robotic...as for Charlie's skating - I don't think the guy has the deepest edges and his twizzles are not the most controlled either - if anything he has the timing issues....just my two cents...
Delete6:56 - 5:42 is me, oc. And good point there. Maybe he and Meryl both need a leader but neither is cut out for it. Hmm. Yep, he's reactive to and feeding off Sharna; Sharna knows what she's doing.
DeleteBut wait a second - Maks can certainly lead on the floor. Hell, he's dragged his partner - literally - through the routine if he has too. He's loaded with the visual cues himself. How come that didn't turn robo-Meryl into something human?
I've seen Charlie skate singles and based on that the guy is always tipped sideways. He's skidding and kicking up ice. Yes, it's coming back to me. Meryl would scurry, he'd hurtle. Neither are that deep at blade level. I guess left to their own devices, neither has clue one without Marina's checkpoints in the choreography that prevents them from energizer bunnying themselves into the boards or tripping over their ever-engaged toe-picks.
"I don't think Blueridge knows what "evidence" means. She confuses evidence with "outcome". It's not the same."
DeleteI think a lot of people at FSU share that confusion.
In that VM DW thread, one of the VM fans mentioned how DW received some GOEs of +3 and lots of +2s for their botched twizzles at the GPF. Someone responded (might have been that judge) that they could have ticked enough boxes to get those GOE. That makes sense if they make a mistake but have enough features to compensate for it (like doing the twizzles in the character of the music). I think we have established that they don't, though I wouldn't be surprised if people on FSU argue that doing the same set of twizzles each year doesn't mean they are not in the character of each and every one of those dances. It is FSU, after all. Anyways, I want someone to tell me what DW did in their twizzles that compensated for not just an issue with unison (which is what some people are pretending it was--just a unison issue), but Charlie going off his axis, losing control of his body, drifting towards Meryl, and stopping his rotation (which should have cost him a level).
Even when it is this obvious, these people still ignore the evidence.
8:43, isn't it amazing how the standards have shifted over the years?
DeleteIt used to be, they're equal and however is the best on the day wins. That's already so deferential to DW, ignoring all the flaws in their basic technique, and saying that if they don't have a visible error, they should win.
But even under that standard, DW have made visible errors and still beaten a totally clean VM. So then it became... DW and VM were equal in 2010, and DW have far surpassed them, VM are no longer the same team (one idiot wrote that Tessa started mysteriously gaining weight a couple of years ago).
It used to be that DW were so "technically sound" that all their elements start from a +3 simply by executing them. That's bad enough, but now, apparently, they don't even have to execute them. They can be completely out of unison and still get +3 and the people that question it are just crazy VM ubers.
Interestingly, when VT won their deserved Olympic gold, FSUers couldn't scour the protocols fast enough to find a problem. Tatiana received a few +2 and +3 on a huge throw where she tapped her hand to the ice. Well. You would have thought it was armageddon. They couldn't argue that VT deserved to lose, but the post-Olympic thread railed on and on about "Russianflation" and the GOE for this one throw and how it was ruining civilization. And I'm not saying it's right that they got such high GOE, I'm just pointing out the FSU hypocrisy. They have been doing the same thing about Sotnikova's flutz and potentially UR on her 3-3 jump (IMO, it was all the way round). Someone actually wrote "I heard that Sotnikova flutzed and underrotated and didn't get a call on either, is that true???" Seriously? Watch the fucking video, since the ISU does provide slo mo recaps of that stuff, and look at the protocol and then you will see what she did and how it was called. If you don't understand it, there are many internet videos that explain what to look for. I mean, that is just the epitome of FSU. Don't look for yourself, just wait until one of the other posters reports on it so you can get all outraged. How funny.
And - 4:48 here again - isn't it interesting how in Sotnikova's case, FSU suddenly understands that what's in the protocol and what was done on the ice are not necessarily the same thing? But you can't convince them that's the case for DW to save your life.
DeleteOf course, that's because two of the callers in the ladies event have Russian last names. DW aren't Russian, so it's impossible that their marks are flawed.
I wonder if much of FSU is just pissy that people are pointing out you can actually SEE which ice dancers were better, same as pairs and singles. The technique is something you can see and compare. It's not the mystery discipline. FSU had become dimly aware that twizzles should be fast, that lifts should be smooth in and out, and that spins should also look fast, but I don't think they had any idea about actual steps and edges or the ankle flexion and knee compression that produced the long, deep, controlled blade run that is the hallmark of quality stroking. Nor did fsu note that a continuous flow into and out of elements demonstrated greater skill than slowing to a stop in and re-setting out. FSU didn't recognize the difference between an ice dance team that used non-skating assists into elements (jumping, yanking, swinging one's partner, leaping) and using one's edges into elements.
DeleteI think a lot of fsu is pissed that mere opinion is no longer God in ice dance discussion now that a bunch of spoil sports have familiarized themselves with the particulars of the ISU's own rules, and familiarized themselves with the ISU standards for superior technique, and are telling everybody else about it. It turns out you can "see" and not just "see", but "prove" in ice dance who is better, just as in singles and pairs.
I always knew ice dance was supposed to be evaluated according to rules, standards and criteria set down in CoP, even before I checked it out first hand. So I would always notice that on FSU and Goldenskate, most participants didn't deal with ice dance technique at all. It was, first of all, which program did you prefer? I remember some comments that P&B's Rolling Stone program was a better program than whatever V&M were presenting that season. It was always this program is better than that program. No it's not, unless the skating in the program had suddenly improved to the point it was superior to the skating VM delivered in theirs. FSU LOVES program versus program. As far as elements - impact is the only criteria they recognize.
It's not just hypocrisy. For ages ice dance was the great unknown that leveled the playing field. Everybody's opinion was as good as the other person's. It was all about the package. People would opine about the package they wanted from their favorite skaters. And I think they still want to discuss ice dance only in those terms. But other fans are now ruining the fun.
As yes, the arbitrator of moral integrity that is FSU----where one is allowed to call someone a "greedy Jew" and still not be banned. But say something bad about D/W, and you're threatened with having the FBI at your door. This is a new low. And the poster, Kwanfan1818, should be ashamed of themselves. Truly, there are no words. I'm speechless right now. (Their post is right at the top of the page, post #21) http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?91777-Johnny-Weir-announces-that-he-and-his-husband-are-no-longer-together/page2
Delete@Anon 4:27
DeleteI agree that FSU is full of moral fuckery but i think in this instance kwanfan1818, a Jewish person, was commenting on Johnny Weir's mother's tweet:
"Brushing up with Merriam-Webster, BOTTOM-FEEDER (noun) an opportunist who seeks quick profit usually at the expense of others"
I think she was basically saying that Weir's mom was calling his soon-to-be ex-husband a "greedy Jew" with her tweet.
but yeah, a lot of people make hateful remarks there and are still allowed to post. judgejudy27 twice called people 'tards' and was not banned. FSU is so fucked up.
P.S. - I just saw Candace Bure's contemporary and it kicked Charlie's ass. She knows how to move, she has technique, she used her whole body throughout, her alignment was excellent, she wasn't static when she transitioned, she finished all of her movements AND was strong.
ReplyDeleteP.S. Danica McKellar looked a little like Salma Hayek last night. Her spins (she didn't do as many sequentially) are centered and tighter than Meryl's. She's got to get her topline organized though.
DeleteI love that they are the "reigning Olympic champions" and we are all having a spirited debate about which one sucks more.
ReplyDeleteI keep going back and forth! So many good points on both sides.
Meryl and Charlie, don't worry, you are BOTH the worst ice dancers ever. Roman Kostamarov, Isabelle Ducshenay, Galit Chait, Ruslan Goncharov, and Maurizio Margaglio are all green with envy!
The fsu Meryl & Charlie fan thread about DWTs is illuminating. Yes, fans are fans. These critiques, though, raise an eyebrow. For instance, there was the opinion that Danica McKellar ought not to have tied with Meryl because Danica McKellar has a stiff torso.
ReplyDeleteI am not a big Bible reader. But I googled this, because it was apt:
Luke 6:41 (New International Version)
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"
And speaking of planks - Meryl's torso.
Good God.
Excuse me, but since when is this a Meryl and Charlie blog? Or a DWTS blog? I am asking nicely but please, mind your buisness. You made it pretty clear in the past that you dont like them so why do you keep posting about them? And even if they do good in DWTS you are (and most V/M fans) are still going to hate on them so if you have nothing nice to say dont say anything at all. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteLOL.
Delete"Hey, person who runs this blog! YOU are not allowed to decide what you want to write about because I said so!"
So...commenting on how two gold medal winning ice dancers are dancing on a nationally televised reality show is none of the blogger's business, hmm? Or I guess it's only acceptable to comment if the blogger is saying that Meryl Davis and Charlie White are exceptional dancers who should win the competition? Or is that not acceptable either, since this isn't a DWTS blog? Something makes me think you'd be okay if the blogger posted glowing tributes...
DeleteFor a crew whose favorite skaters just won an Olympic gold medal, you'd think their devoted fans wouldn't continue to suffer from massive inferiority complexes, but they clearly do given how much they complain about this blog. What are you afraid of? People will read it and realize that D/W aren't very good dancers and that their winning a gold medal in the first place was a scam? I hope they do, because it's the truth. If they read it and don't agree with the arguments set forth here, oh well.
You're asking nicely? Should the blogger wait until you decide *not* to ask nicely? What might that entail? Spare everyone the thinly veiled passive-aggression. If you have nothing nice to say, why don't *you* say nothing at all? Or would that little rule of yours also not stop you from going around to other places and reporting that the person who runs this blog is crazy or unhinged?
did this anon even watch meryl performance? that was FAR from good - in fact, it was EMBARRASSING for an ice-dancer.
DeleteWell, thanks for asking nicely, but I'm not sure what standing you believe you have, 11:28 a.m.
DeleteI will elaborate though, and in no particular order:1) it's fun to recap them on DWTs; 2) to observe how little actual ability has with how somebody is promoted; 3) to further deconstruct Meryl Davis and Charlie White's movement technique, rhythm, mechanics, alignment, etc. and see these things highlighted on a show like this and to wonder why ISU judges didn't notice huge problems that are immediately obvious in the dancing and movement of both; 4) to see which one of the pair is more responsible for the pastiche that became DW's non-skating, non-dancing, yet mysteriously gold-medal winning skating programs.
DeleteAlthough ABC is a national network, and although all of the celebrities are doing it for public relations and there's a limit to any negative exposure, it's still a somewhat closer look at how these people move than we get from figure skating commentary, which has strained to tell us he's Baryshnikov on ice and she's Anna Pavlova on ice. Somehow, right off the bat, Charlie's partner is able to see issues he has (that WE know he also has on the ice) and, via scores, the judges are able to see Meryl's considerable issues with alignment, precision, rhythm, engagement of her whole body, and working with her weight vis a vis her partner. It is very easy to see which of these issues translate over to their skating, and remember again that the ISU refused to see these issues. Of particular interest is the mechanics since the ISU decided that Meryl and Charlie's dumbed down nearly everything merited the highest level of difficulty across the board.
So DWTs is a terrific way to notice just what crap dancers they actually are, although Charlie came across better because his partner is smarter about taking what he's got (physical fitness, some pivots and leaps, some lifts) and breaking it down so he can translate this stuff to the floor. He's fit, he's in condition, she can "teach" him do dance from there, although it sounds to me as if he brings no dance chops to the rehearsal studio, and YOU'D THINK he would.
DeleteMeryl's partner is just choreographing for her as if she's an ace ballroom dancer, which is going to just highlight how much she's not. That's always Maks' approach and it doesn't do his partners any favor.
These recaps (and the commentary below them) scrutinize and break down how Meryl and Charlie move, possibly to discover how come they move like ass on the ice and don't dance on the ice, despite getting stratospheric scores for handling rhythm, timing and character of dance absolutely perfectly.
And I think the icedanceanalysts blog, without pressing the point (in fact, not making the point at all, simply presenting the evidence available to us all) has done a fine job showing that they don't get it done at blade level either. DWTs is sort of a companion piece to the work at icedanceanalysts blog.
What I'd like to know is why Charlie wasn't out of breath when he finished his dance. Could it be because 1) he has a partner that actually does at least 50% of the work in the dance 2) he's not really training as hard for this dancing as he did for ice dancing 3) he only gets it when he's really worked up about winning 4) it isn't as bad as he lets on (meaning he does a good job of acting how Haaaarrrrrddddd he was working out there on the ice).
DeleteThis doesn't mean I don't believe he has asthma but I do wonder how much of his end-of-dance reaction was real and how much "acted" for the benefit of the judges.
To be fair, DWTS routines are 90 seconds while FDs are 4 minutes, and ice dancers cover a whole lot more space than the DWTS floor. But yeah I do think there is a bit of acting there. When you see Hanyu get winded at the end, it's very different.
DeleteDW are not as fast as you would think. In fact they aren't very fast at all. They do a lot of old elements, and use a lot of crutches like two footed skating, posing, and breaks in the middle of their FD to steel themselves for their final bit of running on the ice. If I know all of that and saw him breathing hard at the end, I'd say he lacks some stamina. I remember the commentators used to note how out of breath Alexei Tikhonov would get at the end and basically use it to say he's old and out of shape. And Charlie doesn't exactly have a fantastic physique himself.
I always thought his theatrics at the end was a way of getting in front of the story, something DW are very good at. They turned his getting winded into a positive, into a show of how much he gave to the program instead of what it was, a guy who gets winded from constantly pulling and jerking his partner like a sack of potatoes and who slows down whenever he has to do twizzles or footwork.
Anon at 4:45 pm - I agree with you - that the endings for the FDs for DW since 2010 have been choreographed specifically to have Charlie look winded and give the impression that he just sprinted 4 back to back 100 metre races - which really I find disingeneous...is the guy asthmatic - possibly - but still it's way over the top...
DeleteCompletely agree - Charlie was playing.
DeleteI adore Meryl, and am so glad the American public is seeing the ice dance queen show off her wonderful dancing skills. :)
ReplyDeleteYou can adore Meryl all you want. That still doesn't make her a good dancer. The proof is in the videos. This is not a subjective issue.
ReplyDelete