The first standard for evaluating a source is assessing the qualifications of that source. The second one is assessing the possibility of prejudicial bias.For the moment, let's not look at whether or not this is the first standard. Let's set aside that, despite Prancer's topic sentence, there is no consensus about what the first standard may be (There isn't. I did a lot of googling about it.). Let's set aside the notion that "qualifications" will determine the validity of someone's opinion, apparently sans context, and while discounting primary evidence available to all.
Immediately what comes to mind is "how does one assess the qualifications of that source"? If one is unfamiliar or insufficiently informed on the subject/issue/whatever, how does one evaluate? And by "qualifications" does she mean "credentials"?
A bunch of credentials appended to somebody's name doesn't tell us anything in itself - otherwise, every verdict at every trial would be prompted by "expert" testimony, and there would be no way that the prosecution could produce an "expert" who contradicted the defense's "expert."
"The second one is assessing the possibility of prejudicial bias." Alrighty. How does one assess that? Is it easier to assess if the expert's prejudicial bias conforms with your own? When that's the case, clearly there is no prejudicial bias.
Christ on a cracker. We're talking ice dance. In ice dance, there is a rule book. Anybody literate can read it and understand that words stand for things, and therefore, see for themselves what the rules mean.Then, anyone who is not vision impaired, and with the rules in mind, can go see the skating and see if the skaters are doing what the rulebook says should be done.
With DW, we're not talking qualitative or quantitative subtleties.
Prancer continues to post about figure skating as if it's an unsee-able, arcane, untranslatable discipline that one can only understand via specially trained emissaries who cross the great divide, break down the secret code, and report back to the hoi polloi. The task becomes, can we trust these emissaries.
Jesus fucking Christ Prancer. You're an academic. Read the rulebook. Look at the skating. And don't be a dumbass.You're coming off like Matthew Broderick in the Cooter episode of 30 Rock.
From a fansite about the Cooter episode:
Cooter insists the roof isn't leaking, when it obviously is, even offering to show Jack the study that shows it. Then he insists there is no recession even though the office doesn't even have pens.Cooter insists the roof isn't leaking because the study says it's not. Cooter insists there's no recession despite not having basic supplies because headquarters says there is no recession.
Prancer? You know how we assess the qualifications of those who wrote the study? By noticing the study says the roof isn't leaking while the roof is leaking.
See? No need to even muster up the fee for a database searching the credentials of those who produced the study.
The comedic/farce component of this 30 Rock episode is any moron can see for themselves that the roof is leaking.You don't need a freaking source.You just need to understand, for yourself, what a leaking roof is.
Prancer.The roof is leaking.
I did some googling with the search phrase: "What is the first standard for evaluating sources."
I got CUNY's web page (City University Of New York) which says:
The information literate student evaluates information and its sources critically and incorporates selected information into his or her knowledge base and value system.Well, Prancer is self-admittedly lacking an evaluative criteria she failed to mention - a knowledge base. OTOH, she might have a value system, a value system which informs her that she prefers DW - or at least is irritated by the fans of Virtue Moir. The real problem here is pseudo rationality. Not to mention that one's "value system" can actually mean the bias/prejudice resides in you, and in your evaluative conclusions, and not in the thing you're evaluating.
You know how it is. You actually need to use your own brains, your own powers of observation, and your own reasoning process, to work this stuff out. I realize that for some, this can be a pain in the ass.
_______________________
P.S. I'm adding this quote from the Vassily Solovyov interview linked in the comments section below, because it is part of the persistent question asked on this blog:
The judging games. It is a mystery to me how ISU manipulates their scores. There are only two possible scenarios. Either they tell all nine judges and three technical specialists how to score people ahead of time. Or their scores are just neglected, and there is someone else sitting by the computer, clicking away. Because some things that happen in figure skating are just beyond belief for me.
Namely "Who" is "the ISU"?
There is no such thing as an animated, talking/communicating abstract entity. "They" have names. The ISU", to coin phrase, is people. Who are the individuals manipulating the scoring, who are the people who make sure that, for example, DW's scores stay ahead of VM no matter how DW skate (and no matter how VM skate), no matter what's in the rulebook. Even setting aside the corruption aspect of things, who are the deciders? Where does it start, and with whom, when VM "hear" something about an element that needs to change lest it negatively impact their scores/levels/is ruled illegal even after being competed legally?
Even Vassily Solovyov - he's not naming anybody. Yet. "The ISU" has to be a person/persons, with names, with identities.
Nobody on FSU knows this blog exists. At least not today. They'll "discover" it tomorrow, then again in two weeks, a month after that, and so on.
ReplyDeleteHow strange it must be to have one's memory wiped so frequently.
LOL 11:36, yup, they just "found it" about an hour or two ago and discovered that people are talking about Prancer.
DeleteMost are missing the point entirely and lulzing that the posters here mistook Prancer for a DW fan. I don't think she is. She, like many of the most prolific FSU posters, barely talks about skating at all. FSU just likes to choose someone to pick on, whether it's someone with an unpopular political belief or who has reached out about a personal problem, and then they all get together and gang up on the person on the main board and laugh about it in SS. VM (and their fans) have been the target for several years. Oddly enough, Prancer was in SS saying how the DW fans are even worse than the VM fans because their argument boils down to "but I like them better!" So maybe she even knows how illogical she's being, and just enjoys picking on VM fans for fun. Last I saw, she was telling everybody in the "open discussion" thread that they should all assume the judges are judging in good faith - ROFL!!!
I find it all very disingenuous that the FSU mods love making fun of VM "ubers" because surely, they must know of VM's true status. They have all traveled to a lot of skating events and claim to have wined and dined with figure skating insiders. Several of them had press credentials at one point, and they have been involved directly with managing some skaters' websites and one even works for IFS. It really takes some gall for them to know VM are married with a child and then go around SS talking about crazy baby bloggers and the stupidity of VM fans in general.
The thing is though that many of us in the FSU VM thread DO know of VM's true status through our own connections and we aren't idiots, we just can't say it out there for fear of being labelled crazy.
FSU is just a replication of the figure skating culture in general. The very fact they have a thread where they go to make fun of posters out on the main board shows you the cliquish mentality that allows corruption to happen in figure skating. I know a secret that most people don't, and I'm only going to share it with my few friends!!! Is everyone 13 years old? You'd think that people who have had skating journalist credentials etc., would be interested in talking about the judging, the rule book, etc. But no. Not one of them is interested. In fact, a person moderating the board for years doesn't even understand ice dance as a discipline. It's pathetic.
Delete+1. I was shocked to learn how many people on FSU actually were accredited, simply because their conversation about events was so inane. What skaters are wearing, drinking, who's sleeping with their coach, etc. Really? I can see some interest in that, but come on. No interest in the actual skating itself? Truly, it sounds like most of them don't even understand the rules, though they've been following skating for eons. I'd be embarrassed.
DeleteIf you call them on it, I'd bet they'd say something like "I deal with the rules all day, I just want to relax with friends when I come on to the board" or some such nonsense. That would believable...but only to a point. If you had a real knowledge of judging in the sport and saw people genuinely asking to discuss, wouldn't you want to explain? Most people would, but curiously enough, no one on FSU does.
@12:12
DeleteYeah, i don't think Prancer is a DW fan either. I agree that it has more to do with shitting on VM fans, which is one of the favorite pastimes on FSU. Prancer also loves to argue with people. It's like high school over there. I don't have an account there so I don't know what they are saying in the members-only parts (I am guessing 'SS' is one of those) but I have seen it on the parts of the board that are public.
And I love BlueRidge's comment that DW got to the top without crazy fans. Um, hello, have you met Cyn and Jessiebanana? They are fucking nuts! They go ballistic on people who disagree with them.
Right. I do think skating is entertainment as much as it is a sport, and some people can follow for years and focus on the entertainment part of it and the subjective style stuff and not bother with learning the rules. I actually completely get that.
DeleteWhat I don't get is the downright animosity and hostility for those who want to talk about the rules - like the people that want to discuss it as a sport are crazy! And now that other thread where people are saying people only use the rules to validate their own personal emotional responses, wow.
I admit VM are both my emotional/stylistic favorites and the dancers I believe are the best technically. So what? It's my fault that DW's edges wobble? What the hell?
Anon at 12:31 pm - we thought FSU was bad...the tweets from some of the usual posters either on FSU, Goldenskate or the old Livejournal crew was just basically embarassing...you don't have to go that far - from the Skating Lesson crap and even Mr. ShutupBuck is all about the drama...and the skating personalities..it's not about the skating...oh well...
DeleteOh, but Aussie Willy does! lol She just had no choice but to stop because V/M fans were mean by pointing out the flaws with what she said.
DeleteSS stands for Sekret Sources, the paid part of the forum. Its filled with several thousand-post long threads bitching about what is said "out there" because the posters "in here" are so much smarter.
DeleteThey have actually made fun of VM fans in the past for not posting in the members-only sections and said they must be too poor or not actually interested in skaters other than VM.
Yeah, the hostile environment at the rest of the place has nothing to do with it...
@12:48
DeleteYeah, I get people viewing skating as entertainment and not bothering to learn the rules and the specifics of technique. But, like you, I don't get the hostility directed at those who do cite the rules and talk in detail about technique. I couldn't believe the tantrums being thrown in the "bookie" thread.
and making fun of people for being poor? what a bunch of losers!
To state the obvious, many people attracted to figure skating aren't really sports fans, or even skating fans as such - they're fandom type fans. In fandoms, it's all about the politics of the community and it's about preferred fodder for discussion.
DeleteNobody really wants to be pinned down by things such as technical knowledge or the rulebook, because that's considered a buzz kill. For one thing, getting to where you know what you're talking about seems like work. More importantly (I speculate) - it's restrictive. As with most fandoms, skating fandom is full of speculation and this theory and that theory, this poll and that poll, wash, rinse, repeat - whatever people can pull out of their heads or their fantasies, that's fodder. To attach discussion to anything reality-based just ruins the real life soap opera vibe, and it also means you can't argue that the skaters you like best are the ones that deserved to win. Not plausibly, anyway. Technique and the rulebook are inconveniences.
I think the "sportswriters" or journalists who are attracted to skating are attracted to the personalities, attracted to the fact that because it's niche, the players are more accessible than in bigger sports, and also the fact that what you write is gossip-sourced and not really held to any standard of accuracy as to what just happened on the field of play.
to the fact that, unlike with real sports, or very successful sports, skating is grass roots and you can rub elbows with the actual people, just appeals to those with a groupie mentality. Skating is just the pretext for all the other stuff - the drama, the fame-by-association, the gossip - and this drives those who are credentialed as much as it does "mere" fans who are all over those communities.
I don't, however, think this describes all skating fans or even most. There are, clearly, many people who are actually all about the skating, who know technique, who have studied the rules - there just hasn't been a place that welcomes informed discussion, because an "informed" discussion is a wet blanket on all the theories, gossip and speculating that is the meat and drink of most figure skating communities, and a wet blanket on all the advice giving - advice participants would like to share with skaters to help them with problems the participants are currently pretending the skaters have.
There are really only two places on the web that are large communities for figure skating discussion, and in all of them the figure skating is just a pivot point for everybody to get their soap opera on, and their clique on, and exercise their imagination, free of the constraints of actually needing to know what you're talking about.
I don't know how it happened that these communities are run by people who are part of the "reality is what we say it is", fantasy-oriented, cliquish group, and attracts people of the same mindset, but as that's the way it is. It becomes self-perpetuating, and the many many many (and I do think there are MANY) people who are actually interested in skating as a sport have to work within the constraints of places like that or take it private.
And I guess my point is - those reality-based, rules-based fans exist, and because they're reality-based, they're unlikely to play the games the other type plays, so, again, the situation perpetuates itself.
I think it's good that this season there have been a few more places, even if it's blogs, where people who want to talk about the actual skating (as well as the issues around skating) can talk about it.
what happened in the bookie thread? also im not surprised fsu is so elitist.
DeleteThe bookie thread was a while ago. The idea was if you were a bookie, who would you choose to win gold in dance... and the fights started about whether DW's wins were deserved. It was one of the first time FSU VM fans really started speaking out, and that was, I believe where Aussie Willy first gave her outstanding analysis that DW were tight with the music while VM were loose with the music. Someone also posted the infamous transcript of an interview with a Chinese dance judge who said that VM were like idols while DW were the real deal.
Deletei remember that thread... i rly do not get that chinese dance judge like wtf do they mean by "idols" ofc they are idolized in the skating community, more than D/W because V/M are better and have made more of an impact. and how exactly are d/w "the real deal"? because everytime they skate their performance looks so fake.
DeleteThe person who translated said the Chinese judge used a term for idols which means good-looking... yeah exactly, DW are about the furthest thing from the real deal you could ever imagine.
DeleteWell, that Chinese judge also said there were rumors that tessa couldn't train fully due to injury. very professional. it is a convenient way for judges who don't know anything about the skating to differentiate between teams.
DeleteI never understand any supposed "elitism" attitude maintained by idiots. Don't know anything, make fun of people who do. What kind of elitism is that?
DeleteI love the poster N Dancers; they always have intelligent posts that bely somebody who understands the rules:
ReplyDeleteThe reason for this post was because the whole debate about credible sources vs credible sources, what makes a source credible in whose opinion, etc. was getting more than a little tiresome. The only analysis that really matters, since the medals have been given out, are those of the actual judges and tech specialists.
Keeping it real, I do want to know why the judges and tech specialists thought DW "checked the boxes" but for some reason VM didn't. That doesn't make sense to me at all based on the rules and criteria as listed in the technical manual. I have yet to see a detailed analysis of this. Just because something is in the protocol sheet doesn't necessarily mean we should always just nod our heads in agreement. And I do think the level of controversy would be MUCH less if there was some kind of public accounting for the results. The athletes seem to have a press conference after the event. I think it makes sense to have the same thing with judges and tech specialists. Yes, that would mean that the anonymity of judges would go away. And for anonymity to go away, probably judges would need to be separated from their national affiliation and chosen on the basis of their skills and abilities, and accountable to the ISU. But I think the trade-off would be worth it. There is nothing quite like transparency and accountability to bolster the credibility of the sport. And the by-product would be a more educated fan base as well.
In this DW vs VM debate, I think there is a significant difference between a fan's perspective and a competitive perspective. As fans, we can have our favourites, prefer a specific style, like a personality type, prefer one music choice over another, and so on. There is nothing wrong with that. And everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And I think fans are off-base when the comments/attacks are personal. There are no absolutes and "right and wrong" when it comes to the fan perspective. None of these things should factor into the competitive analysis, however. The rules are the rules. The Technical Manual lays out the criteria and expectations, and describes in exceptional detail how each program is to be judged. While there is always going to be an element of subjectivity in the sport, the technical manual for ice dance makes the sport a lot less subjective than many seem to believe. At least if judges and tech specialists are using the technical manual as it was intended. There should always be room for discussion about how the competitive performances were judged according to rules of ice dance, and why the protocols were decided in the way they were.
Anon at 6:14 am - I agree - NorthernDancer is a true fan of ice dancing. I remember back when I used to post on Goldenskate - NorthernDancer (ND) was always knowledgeable without the attitude. ND has followed novice and junior ice dancers and enjoys watching the development of ice dancers. I can't imagine how ND and others who have been long term fans have seen the nastiness of Goldenskate and FSU and even the lack of accountability from the commentators, judges etc feel...
DeleteIt will be interesting to see what happens with ice dancing in the next year or two and how the politics will play out...actually I think this year's Worlds will be telling - I am interested to see how the SD will be scored amongst the different teams...
Yeah, I noticed that Northern Dancers knows a lot about ice dance and follows all levels. That is one of the posters whose posts I look forward to reading on FSU. I agree, knowledgeable without the attitude. I don't always agree, which of course is expected, but I always respect N Dancer's opinion.
DeleteI have learned more from Northern Dancers than I have from most commentators and journalists covering the sport. Credentials don't necessarily mean anything.
DeleteDoes anyone think the new rule changes will have any impact on V/M's decision about whether or not to carry on competing?
ReplyDeleteThat would mean that VM have some faith in the integrity of the rules, and that what's in the rulebook will actually be reflected in the scores, and that if they do their job, they can win.
DeleteI don't see how they could feel that way after Sochi, but maybe. Everyone seems to think Scott is an arrogant a-hole, but I actually think they're quite humble. They've always been more than fair to DW in their comments. Their belief seemed to be that as soon as they skated well and hit all their levels, they'd win, which is why they were so frustrated at GPF. That implies that they didn't always think they deserved to win with mistakes and they must have bought the garbage that Carmen wasn't what the judges were looking for. I think they hung on believing in COP and judges far longer than the fans did.
Anon at 8:24 am - I think the rule changes are actually very minimal. Unless the judges and the technical callers get a major overhaul on what they are suppose to be judging according to the rulebook then it won't change things. It wasn't just DW that was a problem with overscoring...it affected a plythera of teams...
DeleteMy opinion with VM's decision to continue competing is dependent on whether DW continue to compete and whether Tessa has anything lined up in terms of a media gig. I also think that although Scott would be willing to return to Marina and Canton - I don't think Tessa would.
I think they are done competing.
DeleteI agree with 8:39 that they truly did believe that if they skated their best, they would have a chance to win. GPF was truly a shock, and when they saw what happened how far behind they were scored in the Team Event, that was the final nail. At this point, they are just accepting that they got screwed.
It will be interesting what opportunities they have in the future. The best thing about V/M is that they truly love to skate. In one sense, they now have the freedom to make up programs they want, but in the other, they won't have that infrastructure that comes with being part of the national team, with ice time, money for trainers, etc. Will they move on to other parts of their lives?
Anon at 9:26 am - you bring up very good points. It's just really frustrating to see that the ISU is basically telling VM that they are done instead of VM leaving on their own terms. I think VM had another 2 years in them.
DeleteThe only consilation I have is like you mentioned they both truly love to skate. I think if they are lucky they can do shows for two years and figure out what they want to do...With all the cuts at the CBC - I can't see Battle of the Blades coming back...Commentating - perhaps...but I think they will have serious conversations with the likes of Jeff Buttle, Patrice Lauzon, Shae-Lynn Bourne etc to see what their next moves will be. I can see different collaborations happening but it will be an adjustment to the every day grind VM are used to. Anyways whatever they decide to do - they have already contributed to the sport in more ways than they know...
You have to wonder though if the ISU is saying to D/W to get lost...I mean, look at all the favours that had to be pulled, all the fucking around with their levels and marks over the years, and how the sport had to whore itself to make this fake win happen. Surely the ISU is saying, "you got your fake gold, go the fuck away now". It would reek of arrogance for D/W to continue, and the ISU to continue to sell itself out to justify their fake wins.
DeleteAnd you have to wonder what's happening at the USFSA too...this was concerted effort by them to get this heist done...how will any of these people have any credibility now? Then again, the ISU isn't exactly a paragon of credibility or accountability.
The problem is the ISU has set a precedent. DW were so far off grid. The way they won wasn't per the technical manual or the standards and guidelines in CoP. Judges just awarded levels and GOE for things they didn't do or even attempt. Reading the rules proves that DW did what was explicitly discouraged in the rulebook.
DeleteSo what does skating do now? Re-set to have integrity? Tell DW to go away, and proceed to score on the level from now on, including on the level with VM? Or do they score however the hell they want when it comes to moving some teams to the top?
You really can't go back from what the ISU did with DW versus VM. For one thing, it violates the first rule of malfeasance, which is never admit anything. Once you start lying, you have to keep lying. Once you start pretending "this" is good ice dancing, you have to continue, or it's like you're admitting you were wrong. It's opening up an undefended flank. The ISU isn't going to do it. The ISU knew what road it was going down when it started in this direction with DW. It knew the road it was on, and it never turned back. I think DW are perfectly welcome to stay in the sport as long as they care to stay. The ISU made its choice a long time ago.
OC - I agree that if Jacqui White and family are willing to fork out the cash - DW will stay in and get their 3rd world title next year - just to one up on VM...that's how this camp rolls...
DeleteI doubt it. Why would D/W want to spend another year in the grind? They don't even like the sport (as can be seen by their desire to perform the same programs 4 years in a row). They chose DWTS over winning another guaranteed Worlds gold, so it's pretty obvious where their priorities lie.
DeleteI wouldn't be at all surprised if D/W's retirement was part of the USFSA/ISU deal to give them Olympic gold in the first place.
IMO Russia was getting desperate and promised USFS to help DW get the gold medal in exchange for help in Team and Pairs, which Russia didn't really need in the end.
DeleteI have a feeling the turning point was 2012 Worlds in Nice. DW lost to VM and you know USFS was pissed. Russia didn't have a great Worlds that year. All three pairs bombed the short program completely, and while VT pulled up for silver, they still lost to SS which was a major concern. Both Russian men bombed spectacularly and went down to one spot for Worlds. The ladies were in flux with the best ones not age-eligible yet. The best finish in dance was IK's 5th place. Two years out from the home games, and it was looking possible they would be completely locked out of the golds again and maybe miss the dance podium for the first time ever.
They gave up the ice dance gold to DW in exchange for some guarantees at the Olympics to save face. Canada would have been fine with it, since Chan had just won his second Worlds and they could let VM be dumped on his behalf.
All of that is my way of saying I do not believe this deal transcends any further than Sochi.
I believe if IK had their shit together and had gotten on the podium in 2012, we'd be having a completely different conversation - they would have been the ones receiving all of DW's World Record scores, and the America media would be furious with indignation over IK's Sochi gold. (And hey, at least IK have great basics, so their win would have made more sense than DW...).
I don't think that the ISU needs to keep up the lie that DW were the best to save face. They can say the same thing they said about DW - that IK or whoever is politically favored has "improved" blah blah blah. They can change up the rules to force DW to do different twizzles and force them to make visible mistakes. They can select rhythms that will make them look bad, especially of the Latin variety.
I think where OC has it wrong is in an underlying assumption that people are noticing DW don't skate and the ISU will have to continue to reward non-skating to make it look consistent. People aren't noticing that. They're noticing that DW were "clean" and had "great packaging." IK's Swan Lake is considered "good packaging" because they are pretty Russians and she wore a tutu and glittery headband. If you look at the actual content, the Swan Lake dance isn't much better than the maligned Ghost, except in terms of lifts and a little less posing.
What I'm trying to say is since DW's rise was based on nothing substantive, it would be extremely easy to make someone else rise on the same not-skating-related factors.
The results of the World Jrs in ice dance are encouraging. A team very much like V/M won.
DeleteThe top three teams at Jr Worlds put D/W to shame. All three skated and danced their programs, and their lifts weren't the clutch/grab crap we're used to from D/W.
DeleteAnd off-topic, but Brian Orser coached Nam Nguyen to a junior men's title. The man has the Midas touch.
12:53 How are they like V/M? I find they're similar to Hubbell/Donohue more than anything. They have very good basics but that's about the only similarity I can see. He's fantastic but she's purely a good skater, not a good dancer. Their excellent FD choreography did a good job of hiding her deficiencies, some excellent packaging from the DSC camp this year.
Delete@9:08: I agree with you about Scott's willingness to return to Canton; I felt his remarks about Marina were sincere, and his interactions with her in the K &C were genuine. It's too bad his post-conference comments misconstrued. When he said they went to Marina and told her they weren't happy, I didn't see that as being unhappy at her, but unhappy at losing to D/W, no matter what they did and constantly bending over backwards. That had to be frustrating for V/M and Marina, because there was nothing they could do. The fix was in, and that was that.
DeleteI could see Tessa wanting get more involved on the choreography side of things, and I can't wait to see what the exhibition programs they are working on for SOI will look like.
2:04 - First, I was not referring to them reminding me of V/M in an exact-same-style kind of way. If that's at all part of what you're asking, they remind me of P/I more than H/D. If you're comparing them to H/D in terms of a team having gaps that they need to work on, I think they hold their own against H/D, if you consider that they're a junior team who have only been together for 2 seasons. Their flow and connection in a lyrical-based FD was more organic.
DeleteHow do they remind me of V/M? You said most of it - very strong skaters. I do, however, disagree that she's not a good dancer. She doesn't have the same training that Tessa or Alex have, but in their FD, I see them attempt a lot of dance movement successfully for a team at their level, and a sensitivity to the music. There are certainly areas to improve in that area, she can work on toe point and they can add more closed holds, but to me it looks like they have a commitment to trying to actually dance.
What deficiencies in particular were hidden in their FD? They are a junior team, they have plenty of work to do, but I see no tricks here. With DSC teams, you see skaters improving tremendously as they continue to train there, and I think the programs tend to have a lot of integrity as to what ice dance should be, but related to where the team's skill levels are at. If you look at P/I, as an example, they went from a somewhat open FD last year, to one absolutely packed with complicated holds. I think H/B have the potential to make similar progress.
I guess the bottom line of what I meant is that a team that embraces COP won.
Anon at 2:11 pm - anon here at 9:08 am - I think Scott like everyone else is frustrated at the judges and at the ISU. But I also think he knows that Skate Canada threw VM under the bus for Chan. Slipchuk couldn't care less about ice dance. I also think that Scott doesn't want to burn any bridges - especially with Zoueva. And if anything I think he really gets along with Johnny Johns and Oleg Epstein. Ice dance is even a smaller world than pairs and single skaters in terms of coaches.
DeleteWhat dance training does Alexandra Paul have?
DeleteAnon 3:18 - anon here at 2:11pm: agreed that V/M knew they were thrown under the bus for Chan. Which makes their shout-out to SC at their post-competition press conference all the more confusing.
DeleteAgreed that Scott gets along with Johns and Epstein, but then again he strikes me as an easy-going guy that gets along with everybody.
Where do you get the impression that VM believe they were thrown under the bus for Chan? They seem to ardently believe he deserves every mark he gets.
Delete"What dance training does Alexandra Paul have?"
DeleteBallet, clearly. And probably a lot of it, judging by her carriage and mastery of disassociate movement.
In this interview http://www.ice-dance.com/main/news/idc-interviews/49-news/interviews/1364-a-summer-of-change-for-paul-islam she said she's taken ballet her whole life. I'm also pretty sure that she's studied contemporary dance, but I'm not sure where the source for that is.
DeleteWell VMs shout out to Skate Canada is basically a way to keep the Moirs in good standing within the organization. Scott can't exactly say that Skate Canada threw them under the bus for Chan - since mom and aunt Carol coach and are part of the Skate Ontario Western section.
DeleteSpeaking of Alexandra Paul, keep an eye on her if you aren't already. Some people don't like that she's compared to Tessa Virtue because they feel those comparisons are specious, but if you move beyond a superficial focus and actually look at how Alexandra opens up her body while maintaining excellent carriage, speed, and control, and how she relates to her partner at the blade level, she's developing into a world class ice dancer. If she keeps it up, she will eventually surpass every other woman in the senior ranks, IMO.
DeleteI do wish that P&I didn't look so similar physically to V&M and skate the sort of lyrical programs V&M did in their early careers. I think it makes a lot of people not take the comparisons seriously, and that they believe that some V&M fans only like them for aesthetic or shippy reasons, and reinforces their belief that V&M fans only care about such things. It's one of those things that shouldn't matter but creates unfortunate consequences on skating boards.
DeleteAnon 3:49: I think V/M knew that SC was throwing them under the bus for Chan because of SC's silence: the whole letter of inquiry BS, what happened at GPF, the team event...their silence was deafening.
Delete3:41 PM
Deletedidn't chan apologize to tessa and scott in the kiss and cry during the Free?
@4:22 PM, the problem with that argument (and I know it's not *yours* so to speak, but that of an uninformed collective) is that Paul/Islam can't control what they look like. If they have physical features that compare to Virtue/Moir, that isn't a fault. I haven't noticed anything from Paul/Islam that equates to purposeful "copying" of Virtue/Moir's look, so to focus on those kinds of aesthetics is silly. Same with "lyrical programs." Almost all ice dance teams skate programs with what might be called "lyrical movement" (for lack of a more specialized term) with romantic story lines. Punishing Paul/Islam for skating those kinds of programs because they "look like" is Virtue/Moir to some degree is also stupid and indicative of a crowd that is obsessed with packaging and not the actual skating on the ice.
DeleteLook at what is happening at the blade level. *That* is what constitutes ice dance. Everything else builds up from that. Paul/Islam's blade work is what should be focused on *first,* and *then* followed by everything else. Their blade work is what makes them stand apart from other up-and-coming teams (and many who have been in the senior ranks for some time) because the way they relate to one another *at the blade level* fuels the way their upper bodies relate to each other. It's not the other way around no matter how much some uninformed fans claim that to be the case. Alexandra Paul maintains proper carriage, form, and movement unison with her partner because her blades are deep into the ice on correct edges with excellent knee bend and ankle flexion, just as Tessa Virtue does.
Another up-and-coming team that relates incredibly well to one another at blade level, which then translates into excellent upper body form, unison, and movement, is Kailtin Hawayek and Jean-Luc Baker. Idiot fans who dislike them because of their height similarity completely miss the mark on that team. The height difference can be worked around in lifts. The blade work is solid, solid, solid, and vastly improving over time.
^^^^ Another reason the Paul/Islam-Virtue/Moir aesthetic comparisons don't make sense (and are mostly indicative of a group of fans who tries to lord it over others by making fun of them) is that Paul/Islam have never denied they're a romantic couple off the ice. They've always been open about it and no one has ever made it into a big deal.
DeleteAnon at 4:23 pm - totally agree with you and by extension when Skate Canada was silent for VM - they were also silent for WP....all of the Canadian skaters knew that Patrick Chan was the priority...
DeleteAnon 5:20pm: SC's silence over WP while throwing themselves all over Gillies/Poirer was nauseating.
DeleteIt will be interesting to see how P/I and G/P fare at Worlds...I think P/I are more than capable of a a high top-ten finish (assuming the judging is fair), who knows about G/P, now that they're not being held to D/W standards and actually had to improve their skating this season.
In a fair world, P/I would be vying for a podium finish. IMO, they are the best team next to P/B. I/K have amazing edges but that program is empty and skated apart from each other. not much dancing in there. P/I combine strong edges with lots of holds and difficult blade work--one of the best constructed FDs out there this season.
DeleteAnon 5:49: Totally agreed about P/I being on the podium. And after V/M, their lifts are amazing. I/K's lifts look impressive, and they are well executed (ie, no clutch and grab shit a la D/W), but P/I's lifts show more variety in their shapes, and Mitch looks more solid on his feet, especially in the rotational lifts.
Delete"I don't think that the ISU needs to keep up the lie that DW were the best to save face. They can say the same thing they said about DW - that IK or whoever is politically favored has "improved" blah blah blah. They can change up the rules to force DW to do different twizzles and force them to make visible mistakes. They can select rhythms that will make them look bad, especially of the Latin variety.
DeleteI think where OC has it wrong is in an underlying assumption that people are noticing DW don't skate and the ISU will have to continue to reward non-skating to make it look consistent. People aren't noticing that. They're noticing that DW were "clean" and had "great packaging." IK's Swan Lake is considered "good packaging" because they are pretty Russians and she wore a tutu and glittery headband. If you look at the actual content, the Swan Lake dance isn't much better than the maligned Ghost, except in terms of lifts and a little less posing.
What I'm trying to say is since DW's rise was based on nothing substantive, it would be extremely easy to make someone else rise on the same not-skating-related factors."
I completely agree, 12:42.
The same system that was utilized to unfairly push DW to the top of the medal stand can also be used against them in the future if they return to compete. When the scores have no correlation to the skating on the ice and the narrative is king, it's easy for the ISU mafia to do whatever they want. It's as simple as a DW peaked in 2014, but now they're getting older and not skating as well argument. Gradually start marking them down more and more to where they're getting what they should be. See, look at the protocols, they're regressing! Meanwhile, start bumping up whatever younger team they want to push, "see, the protocols say they're improving." DW don't have to be held up in perpetuity to justify Sochi.
I see a parallel to VM. The corruption and secret keeping within skating has aided them in hiding their real life and shamming. The same system also made it possible to steal that OGM that VM's skating deserved in Sochi. The corrupt system made it possible for DW to steal that medal, but that system can also be turned against them. Tactics that were used to push them can also be used against them
Anon @ 4:58pm. I was impressed with Hawayek and Baker. I was even more impressed by Jean-Luc's comments on the rule changes and the little dig about flinging your partner round like a doll...can't think who he was referring to there ;-) I also really liked Edwards and Pang. I got a touch of the V/M about them and went of to Google them. Their coaches were coached by one Marine Zoueve and Igor Shpilband.
DeleteWell, as Wing & Lowe as coaches go, they're also responsible for Orford & Williams, the mini Canadian D/W.
DeleteEdwards & Pang have wonderful potential, though.
Maybe that's how much they admire Marina and Igor - they have to have one great couple and one dud that they will smoke and mirror into champions ;-)
DeleteThe programs coming out of the Wing & Lowe camp were awful this year; Phantom of the Opera and Les Miz need to be wiped off the face of the earth.
DeleteI watched Hawayek/Baker's programs on YT. I think they have potential. I am struck by how expressive Baker was.
DeleteThe selections from Les Miz were so terrible, i started laughing when I saw the program. O/W are a bit different from DW in that they can dance more, but i agree there is a lot of smoke and mirrors there and they were held up big time.
DeleteI am not sold on Pang's skating yet.
That Skate Canada enabled Virtue and Moir getting tossed under the bus is without question. The scoring for 2011-2012, what they did with the spin level in 2012-2013, the hyping of G&P's scores. The indifference of Slipchuk to the outcome at Sochi, the indifference of Slipchuk to the outcome at the GPF.
DeleteWas this because of Chan or was this for favors to be named later? Something went down where Canada either owed or agreed to be owed in exchange for tossing VM overboard. It sounds ridiculous - except that is exactly what happened. Skate Canada and its connections couldn't even give the opinion that VM were better, let alone that DW were overhyped. They did as much hyping of DW as icenetwork. Meanwhile, icenetwork either ignored VM, damned them with faint praise, or implied they'd fallen behind the all powerful, dominant DW.
No, as long as his family is in the skating business and in business with Skate Canada, Scott can't say anything publicly. They have to suck it up.
Why was Skate Canada silent for W&P? Because it would be too conspicuous if they supported/protested W&P and kept its mouth shut for VM? Then why the hype for G&P? Was that just Debbi - if that's the case, that doesn't account for their egregiously high scores in 2012. Did they think it helped the DW cause, scoring another workaround dumbed down team highly?
After Sochi, almost all Slipchuk had to say was that the Vancouver result was spot on and straight up. But he didn't say it in the sort of dungeon that would suggest he thought Sochi was off base. He was sort of all - if you think it was off-base, well, everybody's entitled to their opinion. The Vancouver result was on point, though, and that's the one I oversaw, so I'm really not too fussed.
oc
What surprises me is that it seems like V/M didn't realize they were getting the shaft until GPF. This level of maneuvering suggests that many people were in on the fix, and yet V/M were clueless? Maybe they were in denial?
DeleteI don't get it either. This is the same Scott Moir that said "we think we're the most artistic team in the world" at 2012 GPF and "I hate this event" in reference to losing to DW at 2012 WTT. So he clearly knew how superior VM were, and he had to have seen how superior Carmen was to ND. How can he not have been clued in, like, 2 years earlier?
DeleteI get that he toned down his comments in the press to avoid bad PR, but privately? How were VM not noticing this?
I think they are such perfectionists that they believed the criticism was deserved. It's like they were measuring themselves against a perfect version of themselves, rather than against Meryl and Charlie. I can understand why they would do that, but Marina shouldn't have allowed that to happen -- this is one of the many problems that happen when the same coach is coaching two rival teams.
DeleteAnyway, it wasn't until GPF where it was completely obvious to everyone, including V/M themselves, that they had skated perfectly, and yet were still scored lower. That's when they finally realized it wasn't the skating that was the problem.
oh im p. sure they knew alright. if they would've spoke up they probably wouldnt have been on the podium.
DeleteSeriously, that, too was Marina's fault? Give me a break. They knew. They did everything PLUS. As the fix was in, precisely what were they supposed to do ON THE ICE to unfix it. It wasn't about what was on the ice. There was nothing they could have done.
DeleteAnd Scott Moir has known for years that protocols are often bullshit. They play the game - much more than DW played it. DW was always - that's odd - we did everything the same as when we got perfect protocols, and yet here, we weren't as high as we expected. I wonder what accounts for it?
It's this perverse pride. Fine, you want us to up the ante to get the level? We'll do it. We can play that game and beat you at it because you really can't raise the bar too high for us.
The joke was on them. I don't know if they realized it was futile by the time it WAS futile (pretty much with the reaction to the 2013 4CC's interruption, the game was over), but I suspect they wanted to believe the ISU was just raising the bar to see them jump over it, and if they jumped the hoops, on the day (the Olympics) they'd get what they deserved. If that's what they were hoping, the GPF had to have opened their eyes because that was a slam dunk and they were still kept down in second.
OTOH, the trend at their own Canadians should have clued them in. That was a HUGE red flag, as was the silence in 2012-2013 after the 4CC's. Their own Fed bailed on them. Their own Fed kept hyping how DW versus VM was apples and oranges - something icenetwork never did, nor the USFSA - that narrative was DW dominance.
Just listening to Scott's remarks in the post-competition press conferences in Sochi, the dude knows what he's talking about when it comes to the skating. I would LOVE to hear him dissect D/W's skating.
ReplyDeleteHe held back, but this was still entertaining.
Deletehttp://youtu.be/o5DiCFTW6h0?t=10m43s
Geoblocked! Any chance you can upload it somewhere else?
Deletehttp://www.mediafire.com/watch/h8fo4xqwnom592l/Tessa_Virtue_and_Scott_Moir_on_Olympic_Primetime_-_Sochi_2014_Olympics_-_YouTube.mp4
DeleteThe bit at 10:43, although it's a good interview all around - on their part, not Ron's.
I'm not 12:15 but thank you 12:45!!!!!
DeleteYes - thank you very much, 12:45!
DeleteWatching that interview, there is still a problem. The interviewer says that DW "brought it" in the ice dance fd, and just seems to believe that VM "brought it more."
DeleteThat's all noise. As many observers have noted, DW aren't "bringing it" per the rulebook at all. And, as I believe anyone can see, rulebook or not, they didn't bring it as far as the execution of their own bastardized program. They were running underwater. Unsteady on their skates, not covering ice. They didn't bring shit.
VM claim not to really watch DW skate. First of all, we don't know that that's not a lie. If it is, boy would it be hair raising for them to see what beat them. But I pretty much think they know already that DW fake skated their way to getting gold, and absolutely contrary to explicit directives/guidelines/rulebook standards.
DeleteThat interview is very interesting because they said in the early season, they respectfully keep their distance from each other. However, by GPF, Scott realized he wanted more, and started bugging Marina about the elements. If DW got points on this and that, Scott wanted to figure out how VM could get those points too. He also mentions that DW score a lot of points on lifts (maybe he only said that because they asked him to comment on one of their lifts, though), but maybe that was a tacit acknowledgment that DW's footwork and twizzles are their worst elements.
DeleteI just feel like, poor Scott. DW are not gaining the points legitimately, so it was nearly impossible to catch them. That tells me he did still believe, in an extent, in IJS. That's crazy.
It's absolutely insane that DW DO score a lot of points on lifts, since the mechanics are dumbed down and the execution is bastardized. It's absurd that they qualify for the highest level of difficulty.
DeleteIn fairness, we don't know what Scott or Tessa believe or don't believe, even when it comes to skating. They lie a lot. And conceal a lot of their actual opinions. We also know they make up anecdotes and invent things they've said or done all the time. "Marina" and asking Marina appears to be something they've seized upon because it's been a persistent fan topic, and Scott and Tessa like to avoid discussing real things, such as their real relationship, such as how Skate Canada handled Scott and Tessa's unfair results - and handed Scott and Tessa some unfair scores itself, and how Scott might not be able to address himself there because his family's business depends upon remaining in Skate Canada's good graces, and those relationships go back more than a generation.
oc
great post, OC. The 'roof is leaking' analogy is so fitting.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was reading through the shitshow on FSU I was thinking, what does this say about the sport when a major figure skating board basically thinks the vast majority of fans know nothing about the sport? They can't look at primary sources because they just lack the knowledge to understand them.
You can tell from the comments section here and some of the posters at FSU that a lot of fans do read the rules and take the time to educate themselves about skating technique (Northern Dancers is a great example). I don't post on FSU but reading through that 'discussion' I wanted to yell, some fans are capable of looking at the skating themselves and comparing it to the rules and drawing valid conclusions about the result. and they are capable of judging how credible a source is by evaluating how well that source knows skating and the current rules and how they are applying these things. See? no need to even look at their credentials.
Sometimes I wonder if Scott will remain attached to the sport. I mean yes he obviously enjoys it but will the corruption leave a bitter pill and maybe force him to move on and pursue another career? Don't get me wrong - there is corruption/favouritism in any career path you choose but when the dust settles, maybe he will decide to move on. I think he is a very smart and hardworking guy - which will serve him well.
ReplyDeleteI think Scott would be a great coach, but there's BS politics involved in that too, so I wouldn't be surprised if he walked away.
DeleteWhen Scott had a "personal" fb, on occasion one of his students would post on his wall. (Not the same student - I mean, this or that student would post.)
DeleteWithout exception, there was never any star-fuckery in the post.
Without exception, and, I guess, unsurprisingly, seeing as they took the time to post, they expressed such genuine respect for him, and such trust in him, that it was honestly moving.
"Sometimes I wonder if Scott will remain attached to the sport. I mean yes he obviously enjoys it but will the corruption leave a bitter pill and maybe force him to move on and pursue another career? "
DeleteDoubt he'll leave the sport. He loves it too much. He once mentioned that he'd like to coach, but the problem was that he'd only want to work with people who are really serious about learning and training. Perhaps initially he'd attach himself to an elite school where he could be a technical coach? If I were Marina, I would take him in a second, although I don't know the politics there, and whether he'd rather work with a Canadian school, like with Dubreuil & Lauzon?
He's so skilled it would be a total shame to lose him to something not skating-related. The politics are ridiculous, but I think what he appreciates are the pure aspects of ice dance as a sport and skating discipline, and that's worth teaching and passing on. It's like learning stroking from Katia Gordeeva. Must be amazing.
Scott would be an idiot if he returned to Marina after this season. She and Arctic Edge threw him and Tessa under the bus. They made it clear they favor DW. And with Tanith and Fedor working there it wouldn't surprise me if DW start working for Marina too once they faded into oblivion.
DeleteAlso it seems like Marina's star is sinking. She can't build up teams, she lacks the technical knowledge and heavily relies on her top teams own abilities to work it out for themselves.
The majority of her choreography these days is uninspired and looks pretty alike most of the times. She has passed her prime.
I highly doubt any top team would be willing to work with her after the controversies of this season. VM are highly respected by other teams and seeing then getting screwed over will be a warning to everybody.
She only has the Shibs left and USFSA isn't willing to support them.
Anon at 8:05 pm - With Fabian Bourzat indicating that he will help Igor Sphilband with coaching and the DSC already has Scali and then as you indicated Marina has her son and Tanith already there...I wonder if his recent trip to either Calgary or Edmonton (per a tweet of a girl who works at a Sportchek) was to either visit Cody Hay (a good friend of his) and see how Cody Hay and Anabelle Langlois like coaching in Calgary with Scott Davis - former US national champion. It wouldn't surprise me if perhaps Scott would want to build-up a dance program and start slow...like Gordeeva - Scott has excellent skating skills that can translate into singles and pairs as well...my two cents
DeleteI'm guessing his trip to Calgary was to visit his brother. He and Tessa seem very settled in London, having bought and renovated the house there.
DeleteThanks anon at 9:33 am - I don't follow the Moirs closely - so Charlie is still based in Calgary?
DeleteCharlie is in London. Danny and his wife, the other Tessa, currently live in Calgary.
DeleteOC and others might be interested in this translation of an interview with a Russian commentator who's ready to give up: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?91735-Vassily-Solovyov-quot-You-Can-t-Tell-the-Truth-About-Figure-Skaters-quot
ReplyDeleteYou can easily envision plugging in Browning and Wilson for Soloviev and Tarasova. It really goes to the heart of how, if you're in the sport (and Soloviev wasn't, he's the Terry Gannon or Rod Black), you canNOT say the wrong thing, even if you think it's a compliment, or neutral, you'll get calls from everyone from the coaches to the composers of the music. People will refuse to speak to you. It also gets into the judging bias and the wars between Sotnikova and Lipnitskaya's camps with each one having someone run up to the commentators after they skated to point out all their rivals' flaws. The title of the article is "You can't tell the truth about figure skaters."
Thanks for that, and a great post, OC. That FSU discussion is just something else.
DeleteThanks, 10:48. That explains a lot of the praise DW get and how their flaws are overlooked. I get the feeling their moms are very involved; we have seen them chatting up the officials so it is likely they have done the same with the commentators as well.
DeleteAnd OC, I hope a lot of people from FSU take your points into consideration. I can't believe someone said that most people who know CoP and technique just use it to support their emotional responses, like it is pointless to even educate yourself on the sport because you will just use that knowledge to prop up the ones you like best.
How exactly is it possible to use CoP and technique to support your emotional responses anyway? You read it and tell yourself Meryl actually used an edge? It can't be manipulated that way - the edge was there or not. They were running or not. They re-set in between elements or not. And so forth.
Delete"You read it and tell yourself Meryl actually used an edge? "
Delete*snort* I guess?
"It can't be manipulated that way - the edge was there or not."
I think it's that the posters at FSU can't tell whether the edge was there or not. They have to rely on someone to tell them. The IceDanceAnalyst blog was suspect because it was showing photos of edges that VM were doing and DW are not. Since the FSUers are incapable of looking at it for themselves, they assume this is an anonymous person with an agenda. I mean these are people who confuse "screencap" with "photoshop." Not really a brain trust there.
LOL, seriously. But when some people bring up the running on toe picks and excessive use of flats rather than edges, some people just call it a difference in style. Because poor technique is a style. And Doris claimed that the toe picking hit the beats of the music, so that made it all okay. Funny how other teams manage to interpret their music without all of that toe picking.
DeleteAnd if you show a picture of one of them on a flat, they will either call you hateful and mean for doing that or say the picture was doctored. When Doris suggested the picture of Charlie on a flat in the diagonal was photo-shopped, why didn't she just go through the video herself and take a shot of that moment to prove that it was photo-shopped? I love how she can just put that out there and people won't challenge it. If you are going to claim something like that, you should give a real reason, not some lame 'well, Yuna and Mao fans have been doing it for years'. Typical Doris.
And the person who claimed that CoP and technique were being used by most posters to support their emotional responses or gut feelings, VIETgrlTerifa, doesn't even know enough about CoP and technique to be able to assess how they are being used. She just put that out there with nothing to back it up.
@OC 12:42
DeleteIt's naive to think that using COP to make your arguments means you're not influenced by your bias, just look at Doris and some VM fans. The "problem" is that we're all human and our emotional responses will colour any argument we try to make, on any subject. Absolute objectivity doesn't exist. Does that mean we're not supposed to have informed opinions then? We're not supposed to argue any point ever because we're all biased? That's essentially what they're saying. An informed debate over whether a key point was reached (and sometimes it's borderline) seems better to me than either claiming it was the right call (if you like the team) or a horrible miscarriage of justice (if you don't) with no attempt at justification. Just because we can't be perfectly objective doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
Well said, 1:35.
Delete1:35 - in the case of DW versus VM, I don't see how bias can enter into the case. It's not naivete - it's a case of is it there or is it not there, on the ice. The rulebook is quite explicit. How is it even arguable, in this case, and based on the rulebook and what is observable, that the rulebook can be used to manipulate an argument?
DeleteWhat I love is that the FSU argument appears to be that this freaking sport is not discernible, even in the most elementary respects, by civilians. Seriously. An entire sport was developed and qualified for the Olympics, yet out of the interpretative reach of your average lay viewer, even in its most gross respects (gross meaning "large, un-nuanced). On that basic level, DW are not doing what the rules say they should be doing. Therefore, IMO, it is simply not naïve, but an objective fact, as relates to DW versus VM, that the rules cannot be manipulated to show that VM are doing it and DW are not doing it. It's objective, provable fact. It doesn't matter, for instance, if someone has a "bias" that the earth is round (or is invested in that concept), if, in fact, the earth is fucking round. In VM versus DW, the earth is round.
10:48 - thank you very much, and I extracted one of the quotes from the interview and added it to the post. As much as he's venting, he's still not explaining. He explains how judges are in a position to be influenced, as commentators are in a position to be influenced by the incessant bitching and complaining and, possibly, implicit threats. He mentions that judges want to protect their positions and don't want to be on the outs with the ISU.
DeleteWHO IS THE ISU? That's the question nobody names. Is David Dore working a phone bank? Who?
1:35 - please, in terms of VM versus DW, explain to me how it's naïve to believe using CoP to make your arguments doesn't mean you're not biased. In what way are VM supporters using CoP in a biased way to argue that DW aren't following CoP?
DeleteBe specific.
1:35 - IOW, saying something like "It's naïve to think that CoP can't be used to support an emotional bias" is one of those things that sounds reasonable but doesn't hold up. It's fake "fair and balanced." It's like saying "the truth lies somewhere in the middle" when the truth is actually on one side or the other side.
DeleteIn the case of CoP - NO. CoP is very explicit. And one side (VM) is doing it, and the other (DW) is not doing it. If you think I'm "naïve", please explain how CoP can be used to support my "bias" that VM did it and DW didn't.
I'm not 1:35, but I think you're possibly misreading what they are saying. I interpreted it to mean that "using" COP doesn't mean you're immune to bias. Doris "uses" it all the time, and some people give themselves a pass because they're picking and choosing but saying "see, I use the rule book!" There are V/M fans who do this too. And also, that it's difficult to completely put your preferences out of the picture, not that it was impossible to do a good job of it.
Delete4:00 - granted.
DeleteMy only point is that there is no need to put your preferences out of the picture if reality supports your preferences.
I'm 1:35 and that was my point exactly. Thanks!
DeleteGot you, 1:35.
DeleteActually, "got you" isn't enough. I should have asked 1:35 if 1:35 was saying what I thought they were saying. I apologize. Even if 1:35 WERE saying what I thought they were saying, they are free to say it, as I am free to express my opinion about that point of view, but it's certainly helpful to get it straight from the first. Assumptions without clarification isn't helpful, whether I'm doing it or anyone else is doing it.
DeleteI just peeked in that VM DW open discussion thread but there was so much trash to sift through, i gave up. One person said AW gave a detailed technical explanation before but "the VM nutters" scared her off. But where was this detailed technical explanation? It certainly wasn't the one Doris linked to in a similar VM DW discussion thread, the one that talked about 'being tight with the music'. If you are not prepared to give something more substantial than that, I don't think it is a good idea to post. or at least, don't post as a judge. make up another identity. I don't agree with calling her names or anything but some people were understandably curious for further explanation. That is hardly an attack.
ReplyDeleteWhat AW seems to overlook is the rulebook. She never relates anything she says to the rulebook. DW can be "tight with the music" all day long - except it would be helpful to define what that means and why it's important. And so forth. The critical aspect, though, if one is defending DW's gold medal, is to relate what DW are doing to the standards and criteria explicitly set down in the rulebook. Otherwise, even if you bother to define what "tight with the music" means, and why it's an advantage over VM, it's a useless remark unless you can relate it to the scoring guidelines.
DeleteA prime example would be when AW said DW ticked more boxes but neglected to tell us which criteria she meant!
DeleteO/T but this site is giving me a DW SOI ad at the bottom LOL.
7:15 you should download adblock lol
DeleteAnother article full of gems from and about DW: http://nypost.com/2014/03/15/gold-medalists-pumped-to-trade-ice-skates-for-dancing-shoes/
ReplyDeleteA friend made a comment today about a subject completely unrelated to skating, but I thought it applied well to the situation at FSU and within skating in general. My friend made the point that what happens when someone can't support their own views, they ban the views of those who can support what they believe. The DW fans and others at FSU can't support their opinions, so they've started banning and bullying the VM fans who do have taken the time to learn about skating and CoP and use that knowledge to support their views.
ReplyDeleteThat's how it's been all across the skating fandoms. That's also how it was when those in control on different forums and sites decided they didn't want anybody addressing the topic of how inconsistent Virtue and Moir were in talking about their relationship, or talking about any other pattern of public relations, or noticing contradictions. Nope. Shut it down.
DeleteAs you say, it's what happens when people want to win or be in control but can't use reason.
There's a new effort lead by BlueRidge on that thread that says that V/M fans are building a case by trying to prove that V/M deserved to win rather than just looking at all the evidence. What evidence are we ignoring exactly? What
DeleteD/W on Ellen today...when asked if they are good dancers, they both said no...bahahahaha! (Skip to to the 4:10 mark):
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGbmgWscFM0