farce
färs/
noun
noun: farce; plural noun: farces
1.
a comic dramatic work using buffoonery and horseplay and typically including crude characterization and ludicrously improbable situations.
synonyms: slapstick comedy, slapstick, burlesque, vaudeville, buffoonery
These two improved seven points in a week. Just amazing. Better scores than Virtue Moir got when competing Carmen and most of this season.
I want to know why it's okay to criticize the hell out of the ladies competition, but nobody can criticize ice dance (Yes, I know - because Russian). And why it's okay to insinuate (or immediately uncover and publicize) iffy shit about the judges on the ladies panel (including names and history) but turn a blind eye to the judges on the dance panel. It's amazing how, when there's the correct agenda in place, some of the otherwise obtuse members of the media immediately get hold of useful information.
When it's not convenient, nobody knows anything.
Nobody, meaning, nobody in skating, except Beverly Smith (and she has her lips zipped about the judges on the dance panel). Virtue and Moir's various dramaturgs in the media have attempted to state the case, but these feeble efforts carry no weight, because they they can't back up their complaints with relevant specifics, because they undermine their case (by saying DW are a great team, because they're unable to see for themselves what DW are and aren't doing on the ice), because don't know what the relevant specifics are, and that's because in all of their years covering skating, they've never set out to learn - for themselves - about what constitutes skating technique, which means recognizing what is and isn't going on at blade level, which means recognizing that what the media pretends is "style" (carriage, extension, detail) is, at the highest level, actually a form follows function attribute that further establishes superior technique. So, not knowing what they're talking about means even VM partisans enable the destructive narrative at the root of all of this, which is that DW are great but VM are merely better.
No, Davis and White are NOT great. It's not that Virtue and Moir are simply on an even higher plane of great. Davis and White are NOT great. They're not good for ice dancing. Their innovation as regards this sport is that they've bastardized skating and dance, and thereby officially defeated real dancers and skaters. Through Davis White, the sport has stripped skating and ice dancing of their actual meaning, and turned established, objective criteria for superior skating inside out. In fact, they've dispensed with real criteria completely, and used the protocols as cooked books.
If any of these people taking up for Virtue and Moir knew anything about skating, they'd be able to say so. Or maybe they all harbor ambitions of working down south someday, or making useful U.S. contacts, and don't want to rock the boat. That's not something the U.S. media worries about when it comes to Canada. They've taken pot shots at Virtue Moir for four years while the Canadian media sits on its hands, or assures us Davis and White are fabulous but Virtue and Moir are slightly better.
The magnitude of what the ISU did in awarding Davis and White Olympic gold months and months ago completely escaped the media that has been half-heartedly wondering if the scores were unfair. It happened directly under the media's noses, and the media was unable to know what they were seeing when Davis and White were on the ice. If the media understood anything, it would see what happened was unprecedented. It was a huge skating hoax, it was corruption on a breathtaking scale, and it was in front of our faces, in plain sight.
But those who cover the sport don't know the sport, and the sport has a culture that is not about sport, but about favor trading, personalities, relationships, favor currying, fear, manipulation and juicing results. All of it is allowed to happen because the media enables it by not educating itself - for itself, as said above - and as anyone can do - about skating itself.* And apparently this culture cows even the knowledgeable, like Beverly Smith. She kept her mouth shut after the GPF, as did a whole bunch of people who only dared say something when the Olympics were here, when anything they said wouldn't impact the narrative or inconveniently change any angles from which the media reported the competition.
That's not accidental, that those who spoke out at all, waited until it would have no impact on the competition, and because it didn't impact the competition, wouldn't somehow imperil their position in the sport.
The lack of logic in even casual commentary is unbelievable too, and goes unremarked. How can someone say Virtue and Moir have the best skating skills in the world and not address that they lost every skating skills component to Davis and White? How they say that one simple thing - like throwing them a bone - but in a manner that suggests it's an attribute or consolation prize, and not the fucking thing itself?
For those few in the comments section who still wonder how come Virtue and MOir haven't been busted, connect the dots. There's as much willful ignorance among the media as there is in the fandom. Everybody's out for themselves, not wanting to cause waves.
Nobody's delivering real information here. You can't write meaningfully about something you don't know for yourself. If you don't know for yourself, then you're just recycling the spin of your choice. That's all we've got with figure skating. Of course, it's also true that in skating, if you do know something for yourself, and everybody else knows the same thing, but isn't saying, you follow suit.
 |
| Scott getting his scores. |
New York Times on Skater's Images
"Myra Klarman, a photographer based in Ann Arbor, Mich., who took the photos, says she does not usually accept to-be-wed couples as clients, so she was surprised when the skaters contacted her. She considered it a positive when Virtue and Moir told her they were not actually dating. 'I don’t want to do kissy-kissy pictures,' Klarman said."Now Virtue and Moir were about to be wed when they posed for her for the second time. However, the above is phrased oddly because it says she doesn't do engagement photos, so was surprised when Virtue and Moir contacted her, and that phrasing suggests she knew or thought they were engaged, otherwise, why would she be surprised?
***
In her summing up of the ice dance free dance, Lynn Rutherford originally knocked two points off Virtue and Moir's score, because she's objective like that.
*****
Scott's quote re Davis & White's scores:
“They wanted us to watch [Davis-White skate and the score] for TV, so we gave them a little show, a smile and a hug,” Moir said. “We’ve done our reality shows; we know how to work the camera.”Okay then Scott. Glad we all spent time listening to you and Tessa discuss how sincere you guys were on camera for your documentary.
I'd love a tour of their brains. Just to find out if it's wind whistling through the empty spaces, or it's Little Shop of Horrors.
Now this quote - I'm on board:
- Scott: "After we lost at the Grand Prix Finals, it fired us up and we went back and watched the tapes and did our homework, and we had to go to Marina a couple times and say "Hey, if they're getting points on this, we need to get that, we wanna win hands down." We felt like we did that, and that's what you have to do as an athlete and now I can sleep at night."Fuck yes. They won the Olympics hands down.
Scott appears to have gotten to know Tessa better since the reality show.
I love the snark on Hall & Oates, but that's also what's so obnoxious about them. SHOVE something down our throats, push it in there, stomp it a few times, make sure it stays down, then stand aside and make fun of the stuff they just sold us. Here, it's Tessa's starry-eyed, white wine sipping Hall & Oates loving self. They can't stand behind the shit they do. Once they've offloaded it onto us, they want to discard it themselves. It's so bizarre. If it's good enough to sell to us, why do they later disavow it like they're embarrassed about it in front of us? Those impulses don't go together.
I also believe this - that with the amount of narrative pushing Davis and White did this season - Davis & White know the judging is fixed. Otherwise they would know it was skating versus skating. They knew it wasn't skating versus skating. Every single thing they did this season and last, particularly in how it departed from the way they'd previously presented themselves, showed they knew the narrative was what counted, and that was okay with them. In fact, a quote from the NY Times article linked above:
Tessa and Scott did the opposite. They went out of their way to project an alienated, contentious image, two people who went their separate ways off the ice, who struggled to communicate, and had nothing in common. They figured they could get away with it because their skating was up to the task.But year-round and off the ice, several teams have embarked on campaigns to project an image of unity. The result is a bounty of photographs, some shot and posed professionally, and a fire hose of social media images of the pairs palling around in a couple-y manner as extensions of the on-ice personas they hope will lead them to the podium.While some Olympic figure skating and ice dance couples are romantically involved, most are not. Some are friends. Some are siblings. Some are talented athletes who like to skate together.But in a subjective sport, often with suspect judging and with accusations of an ice dancing fix swirling, creating a passionate, united figure skating front has never been more critical.**
Do Davis and White believe they had to campaign this season and last, appropriating everything and the kitchen sink into their narrative of soul-to-soul connection and "near greatness", leaving no stone unturned, because they feared without the right narrative, their superior skating couldn't beat Virtue and Moir's inferior skating? Or did they think this was how you win the gold medal - off the ice as long as you stay on your feet on it - and it was fine with them? A gold medal is a gold medal, even if it's not for your skating. It's a reward for all the work you've put in, all the money and time your parents have put in.
I don't think they're so deluded as to believe it's the former.
I enjoyed this from twitter re Tessa:
justinlam45: SHE GOES TO MY SCHOOL!!I thought she strolled the halls talking class discussion, trips over herself when she sees a cute boy, and basically just needs school really badly for that balance Scott doesn't have.
MIND OVER MATTER @thanhphungg: GET HER AUTOGRAPH FOR ME PLS
justinlam45 @thanhphungg: Yeah but i think no ones ever seen her. LOL
****
Someone claims that "everybody shut up and took it" when Virtue Moir beat Davis White in Nice. No, people didn't shut up and take it. DW partisans whined all day long, including in one article where Davis White themselves participated. And furthermore, Die Fleudermaus was a hopping, running, flatfooted, skidding, flailing, posing, and two footed mess, and Virtue and Moir deserved to win in Nice, so no.
Finally, while I will put my hand on the exact quote later, I believe Scott said something along the lines of "Who knows what direction our relationship will go?" when asked about him and Tessa. That's so bizarre. Who actually talks like that who has a girlfriend they're simultaneously promoting on network television and parading on social media?
Ah, here it is:
Now that the stress of competing is behind them, could their relationship take on a new direction?
'That's a very interesting question,” Scott tells Hello! 'I think we'll have to wait and see. We don't know what the future holds for us even professionally, so who knows what shape our relationship is going to take?' - Hello! Canada
Imagine a real person (versus a "persona") saying anything like this in public: "Interesting question, yes. We'll have to wait and see if I dump the girlfriend I promoted on my reality show, who is here in Sochi, and if take up with my partner here. Stay tuned! It could be in the mix!"
(ETA, now that we know Cassandra was in Sochi, Scott's stated intention to pack "two condoms" for Sochi is even more absurd, particularly his remark "I don't want to sound cocky." At absolute best, he's saying he doesn't want to sound "cocky" but he might actually bang his own girlfriend twice while in Sochi. Okay, thanks and TMI.
At its stupidest (apart from it being de facto stupid from every angle) he's telling us he's bringing two condoms to protect his extracurricular action while his girlfriend is there hanging out with the family. Niice.)
Of course they're not connecting the dots because they're bad at it, and because this is fake, and also because they're lazy and don't track the details or implications.
Anyway, we can expect that what is meant by "shape" is the form in which they'll pitch it to us next. Since they haven't had a new idea in seven years, I don't think anticipation will be keeping anyone up at night.
I was reading a book review (of an actor autobiography) where the reviewer said the actor works strenuously at being charming, but comes across as if charm were something he'd heard described but didn't quite understand. That's how Scott and Tessa always are about relationships. Two condoms. Maybe we'll shift gears into the non-platonic even though my girlfriend's right here. My buddies are congratulating me on skating with a girl I barely talk to off the ice, almost as if we're doing it, which of course we're not.
They don't know what they're talking about but it's as if they don't know what they don't know.
________________
*A lot of the media, such as Christine Brennan, Rosie DiManno, Phil Hersch, E.M. Swift, Steve Milton - made or make their living covering sports or other areas of reporting where they have some clue, some frame of reference. A lot of these people are fascinated by the skating world, but apparently they're not at all fascinated by skating itself. Otherwise, how do they cover it year after year, beg to be assigned (as Rosie begs to be assigned) and yet not bother to recognize key basics of bladework on the ice despite seeing it year after year after year, enough so as to make specific distinctions? Yes, it's a great gig. Hang out, gossip, then write whatever you want. Why spoil it by doing the real work of becoming informed? But is that it? Or is the media that covers it uninterested in the skating because what really interests them is the soap opera, even though that doesn't stop them from attempting to weigh in on the skating.
**How is this a sport, again?
Everything is a giant contradiction with them. It's like they don't give a fuck, and they do give a fuck. And then they don't again. They use their show to shove a clusterfuck of lies down the public's throat, and then spend two weeks at the Olympics shooting them all to hell by acting like their normal, married-with-a-child selves. They care, but they don't care. Because they can fall back on a media who really don't care either unless its expedient for them to do so, and the manipulation of a fanbase who want to matter to them.
ReplyDeleteThey don't matter, but they do matter. The fans, that is. They aren't stupid, but they get treated like they're stupid. Their desire to make V/M understand they've made them feel something special, and a hope that V/M might acknowledge that - is manipulated by V/M to grotesque levels. Oh, our skating moved you emotionally? You find us interesting and appreciate what we do? Cool, let us show you our appreciation for your support by taking complete advantage of your trust in us. Because if someone is stupid or trusting enough to take us at our word (and we're going to shove it down your throats that we're being SINCERE and THE REAL US), that's their fault for being that naive and not ours, right?
Sleeping fine at night, no doubt?
The decision to do a reality show FULL OF LIES during the Olympic season has to be one of the most bizarre stunts VM have pulled. A tour of their brains would be helpful indeed, these kids are so messed up.
DeleteI feel terrible for all those lovely Russian fans, buying Tessa and Scott beautiful flowers and showering them with love. In person VM are charming and grateful (as seen by the tapes) but it will be a huge blow to those fans when they realize how much VM lied to them and mocked their sincere fan-love. There's no other way to interpret that reality show but as a vehicle they used to ridicule the fans.
The issue with fans is this: celebrities/athletes don't have to like them. They don't necessarily have to appreciate them. But I don't understand why any celebrity/athlete would want to publicly ridicule fans and their support, which is, yeah...that's essentially what V/M did with their show. Ridicule fans behind closed doors? Go right on ahead. But publicly ridiculing them? Why?
DeleteI just ventured over to the Addicted FB page and a few popular V/M tumblr sites, and what I saw on display, interspersed between messages of support for their skating, was an almost desperate attempt by fans to accept what V/M tell them about themselves. I don't think most of those fans are stupid. I think they really want to take V/M at their word because it makes them feel important to V/M. The results are face-palm inducing, and those fans make themselves look like idiots in the process. V/M not only take advantage of that trust, they also cultivate it, and then turn around and use it to publicly mock those same fans. WHY???? For money? Because they know they can? They find it hilarious? It sure as hell isn't to maintain privacy, because that can be done without proactively ridiculing fans and manipulating their support for them. And it sure as hell isn't to build a brand, because that can also be done without incessantly mocking the very people whose support you claim to be so thankful for.
What's even more pathetic are the people on those sites who are fully aware of what's up and help spread V/M's lies for them. Oh, to feel special, but in actuality be a complete stooge...
7:51 PM - leave the russians fan out of this - you cant speak for them.
Delete1:17
DeleteWhat makes the Russian fans so special that we can not talk about them ?
i said you cannot speak FOR them. not about them. plus we should be lucky that they are even sharing their videos with us. have some respect for them. all that new fanvideo shows is how considerate tessa and scott are to their fans - from scott asking how are they and from tessa expressing concern about how long their wait was. they treat them like everyday people not like fans. you can tell how much they appreciate it because at one point tessa begins to tear up you can tell because her voice breaks. you need to stop thinking that every little thing tessa and scott do is a deliberate ploy or conspiracy to screw with their fans.
Deletethe original post talks about rocking the boat - i know that i dont want to rock it no matter what happens. because rocking that boat means v/m get hurt and i think i've reached the point where i don't ever want to see v/m get hurt. do you want to see v/m get hurt? just let this thing take its course and blow over it will happen eventually.
Please don't call V/M out for their lying, it might mean that I stop getting to watch them accept gifts in videos! It might mean the fans open up their eyes and realize they're getting played for fools, and *then* where will I be? Is that what your argument comes down to, really @1:58 AM?
DeleteV/M are so considerate to their fans that they shove lies down their throats and then reassure them that they're being sincere and telling the truth. How incredibly considerate of them! You can call that many things. Hell, you can even believe it's an acceptable way to treat fans. But calling it considerate? NOPE.
I don't even know what you're talking about in the last paragraph, it doesn't make any sense. You don't want to see V/M get hurt? They are the ones who are choosing to put out their messages to the public in the hoaxing fashion they've chosen. Bring them down off the cross. It's pathetic you've put them up there. THEY are acting proactively.
" Their desire to make V/M understand they've made them feel something special, and a hope that V/M might acknowledge that - is manipulated by V/M to grotesque levels. Oh, our skating moved you emotionally? You find us interesting and appreciate what we do? Cool, let us show you our appreciation for your support by taking complete advantage of your trust in us. Because if someone is stupid or trusting enough to take us at our word (and we're going to shove it down your throats that we're being SINCERE and THE REAL US), that's their fault for being that naive and not ours, right? "
DeleteYou've just described the reason I started the blog.
1:58pm - you cannot tell anything from Scott and Tessa's demeanor. Tessa "teared up" when talking about a rift from Scott that never took place. Tessa chokes up all the time on camera over stuff she's made up.
DeleteScott and Tessa were hypocrites with the Russian fans. They lied to their faces and they also used the video the fans were taking to disseminate more lies to the public they knew would be watching these videos. How the Russian fans choose to feel about being used this way is their call. But they were used. Does this mean Scott and Tessa don't also have some real appreciation on some level? Sure - that's how compartmentalizatoin works. That could be what Scott and Tessa are experiencing when they manipulate and exploit but also express genuine appreciation.
OTOH, maybe not, because, to reiterate, Scott and Tessa emoted up one side and down the other when talking about a rift they made up. They emoted up one side and down the other talking about how platonic they are while they were married and pregnant. So you actually can't "tell" a damn thing about Scott and Tessa vis a vis fans by observing them vis a vis fans. Scott worked his fan facebook the same way. He manipulated the shit out of people there and otherwise ignored them.
1:58 A.M. - would you explain how you think VM would be hurt if others "rock the boat"?
DeleteAnd may I ask - do you think they are oblivious to the way they've painted themselves into a corner? Because that would require pretty epic levels of stupid, and while I think Scott and Tessa do demonstrate epic levels of stupidity, I still at times wonder if it rises to that level. It appears as if their strategy is simply not to tell, wait until time (a lot of it) passes, and then maybe do a "tell all" (that was something Tessa seemed to kidding-on-the-square mention in the interview with Russian fans. Because of course they'd turn a reveal into a publicity stunt, or try to monetize it or showboat or dramatize.). If they've positioned themselves so that rocking the boat would get them "hurt", why did the up the ante, lying-wise, in a season where they'd be in a bigger spotlight than they were the previous three, drawing even more people and entities into their lies (the W Network for one, and much of their community and skating connections). If you're out on a limb and the limb is fraying, do you get out a saw and help it along?
8:28 am - I think fan behavior as it shows itself on the web is fair game in the context of this topic. You are free to disagree, but what's done in public on the web is fair game for critique, although many many people seem to think it's being private-in-public. It's not.
DeleteI think Tessa and Scott possibly contemplate both things, 8:28. Waiting for everything to blow over and then doing a tell all. However, how that fits in with their careers, careers which involve a public profile, is the question.
also its really disrespectful to say that tessa was fake crying during the meeting because she was obviously choking up. tbh i dont think i've seen her that way at first i thought her voice was hoarse just like scott because of the hockey game. are you also going to say she was also fake crying when joannie's mom died???
DeleteYes, it is very disrespectful to assume that a woman who is willing to fake everything else in her life would fake her emotions in front of fans that have always been the main target of all her previous lies. The same woman who can't shut up about how much better she is than the sport of ice dancing.
DeleteI believe her tears about Joannie's mom were real. At least the first few times right after it happened. After that it just seemed like she's pushing buttons because she believed that's what she had to do.
Tessa has been faking emotions for years. Why is it disrespectful to assume that she's faking it again now ? Tessa doesn't care more about the Russian fans than she does about those whom she has been feeding lies for years.
Deleteanon your mistake here is trying to pinpoint the reason why she is crying^
Delete"The same woman who can't shut up about how much better she is than the sport of ice dancing."
DeleteTessa? She has never said anything of the sort in public.
"I believe her tears about Joannie's mom were real. At least the first few times right after it happened. After that it just seemed like she's pushing buttons because she believed that's what she had to do."
I don't even remember her tearing up over it multiple times. Just after the OD.
^exactly! tessa never said anything like that. anon is making shit up
DeleteThen what do you call Tessa's constant remarks about being " so much more than just a figure skater " and how she needs to get away from in whenever she can because there are so many more things she'd rather do ? Its not just what she says but the arrogance she shows when she says it. She doesn't even want to be remembered as a figure skater.
DeleteTessa teared up at least thrice when questioned about Annie's mom. Once right after the OD, once during a sort of recap show about the Olympics on CTV and another time during a random tv interview a couple of months after Vancouver . Maybe there have been even more occasions than that.
That doesn't mean she thinks she's better than the sport of ice dancing. I can be a cheerleader and be proud of it, but also want to be known as more. I mean, I don't even know how I can express how much I don't infer that from her talking about "balance."
DeleteYou said that you believed the tears "the first few times" but only gave 3 examples, which is a few. At most you're saying the first two times were real, and perhaps the one from a couple of months later was because she believed she had to... so you're not exactly pointing to all these times where she cried crocodile tears over Joannie's mom.
I get that the sham reflects poorly on Tessa (to say the least), and obviously for a mom to pretend she doesn't have a child in public there must be some serious issues, but I don't like the tendency at this board to mind read everything to make her out to be some kind of sociopath.
The Random TV interview after Vancouver was actually a year later for a one-year later special. I think it would have been filmed right after Tessa gave birth, so I'm going to give her a pass for crying then.
Delete"but I don't like the tendency at this board to mind read everything to make her out to be some kind of sociopath."
DeletePeople only read everything to make her sound like a sociopath because she *is* a sociopath. Look at the Hall & Oates crap. She's a pathological liar. She just can't help herself. It's sad to watch.
How does the Hall & Oates thing make her a sociopath? That's exactly the kind of thing I mean.
Deletei like hall and oates. i guess im a sociopath too :)
Delete"Tessa teared up at least thrice when questioned about Annie's mom."
who is annie?
Tess is a liar. The Hall & Oates thing isn't why she's a sociopath - or behaves like one - the constantly saying the opposite of the truth - marketing the opposite of the truth - is what makes her appear to be one. And her brittle, insistent demeanor when she's intent on putting lies across. She is married to Scott and she spent the reality show disrespecting that relationship, disrespecting that bond, and promoting his relationship with someone else. Of course there's no clinical criteria and some of this just describes Tessa's unsettling egregiousness, but she's much more brittle, much more controlling, much more insistent in her demeanor when she lies. She goes OTT. She goes way beyond what's necessary to accomplish the agenda. She's always seemed to want to get in people's heads and police what they think, or pre-empt it, and that is bizarre.
DeleteThe photos that make-up the blog banner are from Scott and Tessa's promotion of the reality show. They are lying their faces off. Tessa, especially, is not just promoting the reality show, but insisting the reality show shows us the real, genuine, uncalculated, unself-conscious, transparent them. The reality show was a scripted series full of absolute lies and the only truth in it was there by coincidence. They didn't stop there. Scott corrected people who called it a reality show, maintaining it was a "documentary", and that a reality show was for the Kardashians.
Never mind that there's more reality to any episode of Keeping Up With the Kardashians than in any episode of Tessa & Scott because the Kardashians, at least, ARE a family, are siblings, and the mom is the mom and the Jenner is the stepdad and/or dad, depending on what sibling we're talking about. With Scott and Tessa, premise "A" is a lie - that they're platonic. The fact is they're married, they're parents, they live together, they share their lives.
Part of one episode had Tessa talking about how much she loves Hall & Oates (which she's said before). In this episode, Scott is eye rolling how he's the only one who's not crazy about them. Tessa is working her "nerd" persona. On camera she's thrilled when she gets a Hall & Oates t-shirt. She's incredibly excited about going to see a Hall & Oates concert and meeting them backstage. (BTW, that was the equivalent of live action product placement - Hall & Oates get a little p.r. via the reality show in exchange for appearing as part of Tessa's narrative. It is all SET UP, there's nothing genuine about it).
FF to the video featured above. Scott tells us who his favorite band/musicians are. Tessa is stumped when she's asked. She's trying to think. Scott says "Hall & Oates" - it is clearly snark, and Tessa gives him a combination mock stink-eye and eye roll. She also blows right past it and continues to try and think who her favorite might be.
"she's much more brittle, much more controlling, much more insistent in her demeanor when she lies."
Delete^^ Yes, that's Tessa when she's lying. And Scott gets belligerent and has an edge of irritation or anger in his demeanor. Like when he said their reality show was the real VM "like it or not." Way to sell the show, Scottie!! That right there showed their ass, that one of the biggest motivators for doing that show was pushing back at the fans who were calling them out. They're angry their lies aren't believed. Incredible.
"Tessa, especially, is not just promoting the reality show, but insisting the reality show shows us the real, genuine, uncalculated, unself-conscious, transparent them."
How do you figure it's mostly Tessa insisting the reality show is the real VM? Scott says the same things. Over and over. Even during the book tour, more than once he said one of the things he liked about their book was that it was "so sincere." "The real Tessa and Scott." Both of them are pathological liars - to the same degree.
3:24, this is true. I think my focus on Tessa is down to how much Tess-splaining she does - she uses more words, she rattles on and embellishes far more, she can't stop gilding the lily. There have been times when it appears Scott wants to get in and get out (verbally speaking - hit the lie and quit) and Tessa jumps in and explains to us why we think the way we do, how she understands that thinking, how what we think or wish is simply not true (and btw, she's lying about us at the same time she's lying TO us) and she just fucking gets out the spade and digs in another seven fathoms or so. THAT's where it starts to appear that she enjoys the lies more than Scott - she beats it into the ground - she grabs hold of something, drags it back into the spotlight and delivers a lecture's full of lies. She doesn't want to leave any question in the air, not even an unspoken question.
DeleteIn the end I have to agree with you - it's a stylistic difference, not a fundamental difference. Scott does play around with "tells" with occasionally rolling an eye at the audience or winking, but at the end of the day he recommits to the hoax and goes for it - lord knows we saw it in the reality show to a mortifying degree.
why is it impossible to find VM's free dance from the Olympics online? the video is nowhere!
ReplyDeleteOC I agree. these Olympics have really messed up figure skating, and ice dancing? its over. PB and VM will retire in disgust. DW who cares. No one else worth watching. The Shibs are great but no one will ever really love them. And the Russians are promising but theatrical bullshit.
The IOC is very on top of making sure Olympic performances are removed from YouTube, etc. ASAP. It'll eventually show back up and stay up.
DeleteCBC posted both programs, it might be geoblocked if you live outside Canada:
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq-e_Jkf91s&list=HL1393441827&feature=mh_lolz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7F0969uvqw
Youtube is blocking all Olympic things immediately, rather than the usual having to find the videos and report them. I assume the prohibition ends at some point, considering all the stuff from Vancouver on youtube, but in the meantime, I suspect it's because broadcasters pay so much for the rights, so the footage is policed 100x more than usual. If you're in Canada, you can watch on the CBC sports youtube channel or the CBC Olympics website.
DeleteAnd, sorry, I majorly disagree. I love the Shibs a lot. There are plenty of great teams still out there, that share the qualities of V/M and P/B.
Anon 11:15: totally agreed, love the Shibs, and I look forward to their continued evolution. W/P, C/L, will continue to improve as well. Love the Spanish team that is coached by Dubreil/Lauzon, they have solid basics and their programs were really interesting this year.
DeleteLots of talented teams coming up from the US, especially H/D and that other American team that had the Bollywood FD.
In Canada, I believe that P/I have the ability to shoot straight up the ranks, assuming they continue to evolove their skills and don't get screwed politically, because you can be damn sure the Russians will want to own the next quad.
I don't think we'll ever see a team like V/M again, they were truly a once-in-a-generation team.
I hope we never see a team like D/W ever again, and all the teams that have similar crappy skating like them: Chock/Bates, Coombes/Buckland, Gilles/Poirer get screwed in the next quad.
Exactly. Paul/Islam are the ones to watch IMO, they are fabulous. I like the Spanish team, Hurtado/Diaz too, although I thought they were way overmarked at the Olympics. Aldridge/Eaton are who did the Bollywood FD, The US Junior team of Hawayek/Baker is really wonderful, as well as Canada's Edwards/Pang, but I think the latter needs to move away from Wing/Lowe ASAP. And both B/S and I/K are promising, period. We don't *know* that they'll keep with theatrical bullshit and open skating, and I'm willing to wait and see if they want to improve. But it's possible, I suppose, that C/L and B/S will retire, they're a bit older.
DeleteWe'll probably never get another team that is willing to put in the effort to create new lifts, spins and twizzles for every program. The ISU has shown the door to every team that tried to mix excellent technique with creativity. The judges don't want to advance the sport. Hell, they don't want it to be a sport at all.
DeleteAfter al ice dance is the easiest to manipulate, this is where federations have all the possibilities to make deals for the other disciplines. They'd be insane to give that up. If you want a medal in singles or pairs all you have to do is to throw a couple of ice dancers under the bus. Nobody will ever know because nobody even believes it's a genuine sport.
The federations make a big deal out of promoting singles and pairs as a difficult and " manly " sport. But there is no such campaign for ice dancing and I don't believe this is a coincidence.
Well said anon at 7:23 pm. In other interesting news, it appears that VM will be doing SOI Japan and perhaps another show in Japan before SOI Canada - which I think will be nice for them to spend some time in Japan. It also appears that the US SOI will be headlined by DW with Gold, Wagner, Abbott, Brown, Bradley, Castelli/Shap, Nagasu and Chock/Bates...with some special guests in each city...Don't know about u guys but unless the US SOI is getting great choreography - this might end up looking like a dud...interesting that the Shibs are not added...unless I missed something...or maybe I am secretly hoping that they go to Japan, lol
Deletewill vm do worlds?
DeleteI doubt V/M will to Worlds...as long as the judging is fucked-up and corrupt, why would they go to Worlds and be further humilated? I'm sure the ISU is baying for their blood and wants to further humilate by placing I/K over them and push V/M down to bronze.
DeleteD/W should quit now, they've already got an undeserved OGM, and their 2013 title was undeserved as well, it reeks of arrogance if they go to Worlds...but then again, they're pretty clueless, they actually believe their own hype. Fuck them.
Most of DW's titles are undeserved. All the GPF titles for one. Both Worlds and the Olympics. In Vancouver, it was B/A who should have had silver, not DW, who shouldn't have been on the podium at all.
DeleteThis strategy of first getting DW as close as possible to VM, later to surpass them, began way before Vancouver. As far as DW scores, it's never been about what they're doing on the ice.
I hope some day figure skating history recognizes this and calls it like it is.
I stilll don't understand why D/W were USFSA's "chosen" ones. Such a blatantly crappy team. Was it because of the whole "they've been together since kids" angle? Because they trained with V/M? I just don't get why the USFSA and the ISU would essentially sell themslves out for such a shitty team.
DeleteI think it was a combination of money, malleability, health, and commitment to staying four more years and do whatever it took. Training with VM definitely helped.
DeleteAnon 9:00AM...not only are their titles deserved, their world record scores are totally undeserved as well. If both teams go to Worlds (and I sincerely hope neither do), you can be sure the judges will give D/W a score of 200. Fucking disgusting.
Delete^^make that their titles are undeserved.
DeleteAll OC's condemnation of Smith not calling VM's scores at GPF ignores the fact she had an abrupt parting of the ways with Globe and Mail and simply had no place to write. She was commissioned to do occasional pieces for the Skate Canada website but on very limited topics. Get your facts straight. Stop maligning everyone in sight. Accept that you do not know everything.
ReplyDeleteI agree that with OC that with the exception of Smith, the media is uneducated and not saying what needs to be said. I also agree with you 2:47 that backing off of Beverley Smith would not be amiss. She is not employed by a paper right now and is working freelance.
DeleteI know that she hasn't named Rettstatt, but there are reasons people are treading very carefully there. It does no good if she or anyone else gets sued for libel/slander. I'm just saying Russian and other judges from that part in the world aren't as likely to sue in North America as someone with affiliations with a North American skating fed who has just pulled off quite a stunt in corruption.
There have been preemptive signals that anyone accusing Retstatt of anything will be dealt with harshly. Lynn Rutherford already published a piece with Igor Shpilband praising Retstatt and calling him fair and honest. Most judges are monied and well-connected -- Bev Smith, Rosie DiManno, Steve Milton, etc. cannot fly around making accusations with no tangible documents, statements or recordings.
ReplyDeleteU cant help but laugh at the comments lol https://twitter.com/ColbertReport/status/438796788209033216
ReplyDeleteI love this anti-D/W blogsite, calling bullshit on the sheep media:
ReplyDeletehttp://daviswhite2014.blogspot.ca/2014/02/figure-skating-analysts-tv-commentators.html
This made me bust a gut laughing:
"Meryl and Charlie won everything since 2012 with top component marks but the criteria prescribed by the ISU just don't match. It is like if the Academy let Michael Bay's Transformers win Best Picture because explosions are cool and they forget about the bad acting, bad pacing, and bad cliches. This will never happen in the movie industry but the equivalent of ice dance played out for the past several years."
"This will never happen in the movie industry but the equivalent of ice dance played out for the past several years."
DeleteHmm, didn't "Titanic" win best picture one year?
I'm going to link that in the next post - it's too good and it's very funny.
DeleteHey check this out: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskating/meryl-davis-charlie-white-yet-to-decide-on-figure-skating-worlds-1.2552937
ReplyDeleteActually, I thought the article written by PJ Kwong - included in the article above deserved more scrutiny. After reading that, I've completely lost my respect for her expertise in ice dancing, in particular. *sigh*
DeleteAny speculation on why it seems VM are dodging the media? Nothing but radio silence from them - not even a welcome home at the airport.
ReplyDelete10:15 -- I for one would be happy to only see them skate, or have news about their skating (such as SOI) and nothing else. As long as the main theme of interviews and appearances is to further promote their fake public personas, complete with fake SO's, I would prefer not to hear from them at all. Thank you very much.
ReplyDeleteIt's not a good feeling that anytime VM are "quiet" I'm expecting to be hit over the head with some new OTT scheme related to their hoax. It's a disgrace that a wonderfully charismatic and talented team like VM should have instilled this feeling in me/many fans, instead of an anticipation of good things.
I'll repeat... Tessa and Scott, please shut up and just skate. Unless, that is, you're willing to tell the truth.
It's always hard to tell what VM are up to, but I'm going to cut them a bit of slack here. They may be up to something, or it could be as simple as needing to remember they've been gone for three weeks and have a small child at home. They were exhausted, judging by the photographs. It seems they didn't get home until Tuesday afternoon. Maybe it's as simple as they're tired and wanted to spend some time with Little Moir.
DeleteWhen we do hear from them, I do hope it's just about the skating.
11:16 again.
DeleteI'm going to rephrase part of the above. It's actually fairly easy to figure out what they're up to, particularly with the sham. What I should have said is that it's hard to tell when they're NOT up to something because they so often are.
I saw something on Twitter about rumours that Scott and Cassandra were engaged - from someone who knows about the baby - what's going on now??
ReplyDeleteThe person who posted it is the same troll formerly known as Heather. Carry on.
DeleteAaah, I see - thanks!
Delete11:34
DeleteWhat better way to start a rumour than to post it on twitter, pretending you heard about it.
I was confused because they accused them of shamming and asked if T&S's daughter was going to a flowergirl at her daddy's fake wedding :-D
DeleteWell let's say - between the saw Tessa - grocery shopping / was in my yoga class to Scott pumping gas at a gas station etc on Twitter - oiee..london...anyways - it's been a stressful Olympics for VM - so downtime is definitely earned. We might get a quick conference call indicating whether they will do worlds or not...but yeah - I think folks need to just - stay calm....
DeleteAnon at 11:38 - if Heather is back at it - oieee..whatever...
And yet no one has seen either of them with preschool Moir. Either they miraculously only run into twitter posters when they aren't with their kid, or these two are the most uninvolved parents I've ever known.
DeleteOr those twitter sightings were planted by their friends in Ontario or the tweets were real but they purposely omitted the child's presence at the grocery store or gas station because they know it's a secret.
DeleteOf course people have seem them with Little Moir. Not everyone runs back to twitter to report what they've seen. VM fly under the radar in Michigan, and back home in London, they're pretty safe to just be who they are.
DeleteIn the wider world, VM are not huge, well-known celebrities. People don't recognize them. The odds of someone seeing them and running back to twitter are infinitesimally small. Consider this, too: How often do we hear about any skater out and about? Charlie and Tanith are dating. How often do people report on twitter that they've seen them out and about? Pretty much never, right?
I wonder where little Moir goes to preschool. Do they need to send a notice to every other parent in the school to make sure they don't mention the kid's existence?
DeleteLittle Moir just turned three. Tessa's mother cares for her while Tessa and Scott are skating. She may not be enrolled in preschool yet.
Delete"Charlie and Tanith are dating. How often do people report on twitter that they've seen them out and about? Pretty much never, right?"
DeleteCharlie and Tanith also don't have a blog devoted to them that has over a million visits. Nor do they media willing to pony up money to give them their own reality show. V/M may not be huge, well-known celebrities, but there is definitely enough interest in them that it is surprising that there haven't been sightings of this kid reported by anyone.
Anytime V/M "out and about town" sitings are reported on twitter, especially one after another like these were over the last few days, it's probably a good bet they weren't spontaneous.
DeleteThe sooner fans realize that twitter is just as easy to manipulate and use to spread lies as FB or other social media sites, the better off they'll be.
I've seen celebrities out around town many times, including some that are much more well known that V/M. Never once have I tweeted about those sitings. Those celebrities are locals and I view them that way, not as people I need to publicly report on every time I'm behind them at the grocery store check out counter. I imagine many people feel the same way about their local "celebrities."
DeleteI'll add that one of the celebrities I see quite often is an Emmy award winning actor who is well known worldwide for his television role. When he's in town, he's just one of the locals. He appreciates that we treat him that way, and he treats us the same way.
Delete"The sooner fans realize that twitter is just as easy to manipulate and use to spread lies as FB or other social media sites, the better off they'll be."
DeleteThis is true. But it's also true that social media sites aren't so easy to control. Let's say I happened to be wandering London and saw Scott and his daughter at the gas station. I would report it on twitter. I'd also snap a picture of the girl and post it. Just like that other poster posted the link to Scott's Canton address. How is Moirville supposed to control me?
I wonder how much a picture of that girl would be worth to a tabloid magazine? I bet a US magazine would shell out a little something right now.
Delete"This is true. But it's also true that social media sites aren't so easy to control. Let's say I happened to be wandering London and saw Scott and his daughter at the gas station. I would report it on twitter. I'd also snap a picture of the girl and post it. Just like that other poster posted the link to Scott's Canton address. How is Moirville supposed to control me? "
DeleteYou think you'd post something like that until you're living the situation out.
Most of us thought posting the address was going a step too far.
Anon @5:41, you are the outlier, not the norm. I wouldn't post a picture of a child to a social media site no matter whose kid it is. If the parent wants to post it or allows it, fine. If not - I wouldn't touch that opportunity with a ten foot pole.
DeleteIt's true social media cannot be controlled, but there is a misconception that it's this free for all, no rules, everyone can be easily exposed platform that makes the world of celebrity more transparent.
That is simply not the case. If anything, it's the other way around. It actually makes it easier for celebrities to get away with lying, hiding, etc.
@5:58, the address/info had already been made public on a real estate website before it ever found its way over here. I'm not saying it's wrong to feel uncomfortable about that, just that I think there's a difference between that and making public never before seen photos of a kid without his/her parents' permission.
DeleteYou had to work to put the address together with it being their house in Canton though. It required some leg work and several different searches, and that in itself was a bit of a barrier to some.
DeleteDid the searches all bring up public documents/information that someone then used to put it all together and determine that is their house? If so, all of that would have been done with already made public information. Like I said, I understand the point you're making, just that I think there's a difference between taking what is already public and making an effort to photograph a child without his/her parents' permission and make it public. Obviously, I know the paparazzi can get away with doing so to some extent, although apparently there are several court cases pending on the issue in the United States and People magazine just came out and reported they would no longer be printing paparazzi photos of celebrity children without a family's consent.
Delete"It's true social media cannot be controlled, but there is a misconception that it's this free for all, no rules, everyone can be easily exposed platform that makes the world of celebrity more transparent.
DeleteThat is simply not the case. If anything, it's the other way around. It actually makes it easier for celebrities to get away with lying, hiding, etc."
I think it depends on the circumstances. This blog is a terrific example. V/M set out to cover up their relationship and create a sham to insult fans. That ticked off one fan enough to start this blog. Now V/M have upped the ante to create a national tv show that focused in large part, on the sham. What's to say there won't be others like the blogger who now take it one step further? The more the ante is upped, the more you're going to come across people who don't want to play by the same rules as everyone else.
It was all public info, but it wasn't spelled out there explicitly. Yes, people could piece it together, but that piecing together was a bit of a deterrent. I didn't feel comfortable point-blank posting the address where a small child lives.
Delete"What's to say there won't be others like the blogger who now take it one step further? The more the ante is upped, the more you're going to come across people who don't want to play by the same rules as everyone else."
DeleteI don't disagree with that assessment. I think V/M's upping the ante has been unbelievably stupid, and if any "professional" has advised them to do what they've done, that person is an idiot. There are a great number of professionals in the PR and marketing business who would be the first to tell you that the way V/M have chosen to market their personal life is grotesque, ass-backwards, and reckless. What's allowed them to get away with it so far is the complacency of the media and the niche aspect of figure skating. But those things might not always shield them from the shit hitting the fan. No matter how much they lie, how invincible they believe they are when they do so, or who they have advising them on the issue - none of that will ever completely protect them. It's impossible to ever be fully protected from anything.
That being said, I don't believe if they're going to be exposed, it will be by some random fan who runs into them at a gas station, takes a photograph, and publishes it to twitter. Fans on the internet have proven they will bend themselves over backwards and mentally twist themselves into pretzels to believe what V/M tell them. I swear, those two could fuck each other on the ice and fans would be like "OMG, are they having sex? Wait...maybe that's not what they're doing. Maybe his penis just accidentally slipped inside her on that lift. Their choreography is so intimate, after all. And besides, Scott has a girlfriend! We saw her on their show!"
This blog has shown, time and time again, how much V/M have lied about their personal life and how many times they've thrown out MASSIVE contradictions to the public. And yet some people still believe them because V/M have enough "mouthpieces" out there who spread the false narratives. This is a brilliant sociological study waiting to happen, I swear.
Go over to the V/M thread at FSU, which is a public board, and read the comment made by the poster at 2:55 pm, which is in reference to this discussion.
DeleteTHAT right there. That is how this fandom works. That is why V/M have been able to get away with lying. They are given the benefit of the doubt, despite consistently lying, being caught doing it, and being called on it, while those who call them on it have their words twisted and are accused of somehow plotting against them.
What's amazing is that these same fans believe the Tessa and Scott portrayed in the show aren't the "real" Tessa and Scott, despite both T&S saying repeatedly that the show displays their real selves. How are they capable of believing that the show is not real, but can't believe that everything else is a lie as well?
DeleteWillful blindness? The desperate need to feel appreciated by V/M, which includes believing what they're told? With enough compartmentalization, it's easy to tell oneself that V/M's portrayal on the show was intended to bring in fans, and that's why their personalities were falsified the way they were. Or they can blame it solely on the producers.
DeleteFor V/M to operate in the same fashion in other areas of their PR, however...those fans won't get behind that. Because that would mean accepting that they themselves have been duped. Or maybe they don't care that V/M blame fans for their decisions to lie and then mock them when they believe what they're told while pocketing the money they've made off their book, or their show, or whatever. They can call back on the "I don't care about anything else they do, I care about their skating" argument, even though with further scrutiny, that falls apart as well.
It's easy to like V/M. I don't think they're evil people, but they've certainly compartmentalized how they handle their public/private life, and the fans get regularly shit on by them. Watch that Russian fan Q&A. Those fans were so excited to meet V/M. Made them gifts. Wanted so badly to tell them how much their programs had meant to them as skating fans. At several points during that interview, V/M lied directly to their faces as a means of using those fans as a conduit to further their false narrative, but hey, they did it with a smile. So, there you go.
The post being referred to on FSU is the opinion of one person. The responses by others clearly show, not everyone agrees with them. I think everything online needs to be taken with a grain of salt and looked at with objectivity.
DeleteWhen they signed on to do the show, odds are they were contractually bound to promote it. Its quite the common practice. They wouldn't be able to say anything bad about it even if it turned out they hated it.
I'm certainly not going to say that everything said here about them is true, since I have seen no definitive proof to show that. I am willing to believe that not everything they state is accurate or truthful all the time. They wouldn't be the first celebrities to lie about their personal lives and they certainly won't be the last.
V/M had to agree to act out a bunch of scenes that furthered the predetermined storyline for the show. They might be surprised at some of the editing but I don't think the general portrayal would be much of a surprise.
Delete"When they signed on to do the show, odds are they were contractually bound to promote it. Its quite the common practice. They wouldn't be able to say anything bad about it even if it turned out they hated it."
DeleteScott Moir sat on a couch in what was claimed to be his house and kissed and cuddled with a woman pretending to be his girlfriend, when actuality he is married to Tessa Virtue and they have a young daughter.
You think if he didn't want to be portrayed that way, he wouldn't have shot that scene in the first place? They weren't just edited a certain way, V/M spoke specific lines and did voiceovers designed to further the narrative. It's not like they filmed the thing, watched the final cut, and went "OMG, that's not us at all! The producers bastardized the way we hoped we would be portrayed, but we can't say that, so we have to go along with the idea this is the real us."
The show was a complete farce and they knew it and signed off on it.
I agree that they had to agree to parts of it without a doubt. After that though editors and producers have a way of changing things to what they think will sell better. Star crossed lovers type angle almost. Old news if you ask me.
DeleteI do agree that there is more to them then they state. They certainly have more history then just dating as children as they claim. If they want to be together in the future, best of luck to them. Things will certainly change once they stop competing. Its just a matter of whether they can handle that or not.
I'm not entirely sold on the secret marriage or child angle though either. At least not without irrefutable proof. I won't call anyone who believes that crazy though like some other blogs have stated.
I do disagree with comments made earlier about their fans being pathetic for wanting to give them gifts or flowers. I do think they care about their fans at least the Russian ones for sure. Some of them have been taking part of meet ups before a lot of people even knew who Tessa and Scott were.
Is them wanting to believe or shower their heroes with things really any less pathetic then people who go out of their way at times to portray them as the worst people on the planet.
Should have said don't agree with comments made earlier
Delete" V/M lied directly to their faces as a means of using those fans as a conduit to further their false narrative, but hey, they did it with a smile. So, there you go. "
Deletehow exactly though? are you trying to insinuate that scott was lying about losing his voice because of hockey/curling for example?
"I agree that they had to agree to parts of it without a doubt. After that though editors and producers have a way of changing things to what they think will sell better. Star crossed lovers type angle almost. Old news if you ask me."
DeleteThat was not done without V/M's consent. They were speaking lines and doing voiceovers specifically intended to sell that angle, or however they wanted to term it. You can't be edited a certain way without your knowledge when you're saying the lines that directly feed that narrative. There's no other narrative they could have fed. It was intentional, and V/M were in on it or asked that it be THE narrative of the show.
"I do agree that there is more to them then they state. They certainly have more history then just dating as children as they claim. If they want to be together in the future, best of luck to them. Things will certainly change once they stop competing. Its just a matter of whether they can handle that or not."
They will be together in the future because they are together now and were in the past. They are married with a child. It is a fact. Many people know this. That you require irrefutable proof to believe it is your call, but I can assure you, it's not about "believing." It's about knowing. And plenty of people know. That they aren't going to shell out photos of a child without the permission of her parents, or out official, closed documents that "prove" a marriage, is, I would hope, understandable to the people calling for those things to be released as some kind of "proof."
"I do disagree with comments made earlier about their fans being pathetic for wanting to give them gifts or flowers. I do think they care about their fans at least the Russian ones for sure. Some of them have been taking part of meet ups before a lot of people even knew who Tessa and Scott were."
Please show me where anyone in this comment section called those fans pathetic. No one has done that. There is nothing pathetic about fans wanting to give gifts or flowers. What IS pathetic is how V/M took advantage of the love for and trust those fans have in them and used that opportunity to lie to those fans' faces and further shove their fake narrative down the public's throat. That's gross.
@8:44 PM, I was referring to the fan Q&A's made by Russian fans, both at Cup of Russia and Trophee Eric Bompard.
Delete8:34
DeleteI can't speak for others, but I believe the basic premises laid out in this blog and I don't feel the fans are pathetic. They're very sweet in their sincerety, in wanting to convey to Tessa and Scott how they move them with their skating. Their gifts to VM imo have been lovely.
VM are the pathetic ones, using any opportunity to slide in their lies, knowing the fans will repeat to others. I'm concerned for how these fans will feel when they realize Tessa and Scott lied to their faces.
Btw, I do think VM truly appreciate those fans and are sincere in their gratitude. The problem is VM have also used them. That's pathetic.
I love that the accusations made by that poster on FSU are so egregiously inaccurate or completely made up and yet no one has bothered to correct that. Also, WTF is a "graphic inappropriate screenshot?" A shot of Charlie White with his arms in the air doing Persian/Viennese/hunchback choreography?
Delete" I'm concerned for how these fans will feel when they realize Tessa and Scott lied to their faces."
DeleteI don't think they would care. their fans love them no matter what. its not like they pulled a Justin Bieber anyway
For the show I meant more as to timeline of things or some scenes may have been placed. I don't deny them speaking scripted lines throughout. That is a basic norm for anything claiming to be a "reality" show.
DeleteA fact is a universal truth that is irrefutable because it is backed by evidence that all agree upon. Marriage certificates are not closed documents. They are public record. Birth certificates usually are as well unless requested to be closed. Normally only granted when the child's safety may be at risk.
I am not even trying to say isn't actually true, just that without hard evidence something cannot be called a fact. Knowing something and it being fact are not the same thing.
As for the fans being pathetic comment. I apologize as I misread something.
I do still think they care about some of their fans at least. Not going to say all of them but there are bound to be ones that do mean something to them just by the shear number of people they've met over the years.
On another note this was said earlier about London sightings.
"Or those twitter sightings were planted by their friends in Ontario or the tweets were real but they purposely omitted the child's presence at the grocery store or gas station because they know it's a secret."
So far in sightings around the London area there hasn't been any child with them. At least not as of yet that I've heard or seen. I'm from London and have only seen Tessa this week and she was with no one. They seem to be keeping under the radar right now just to unwind before making any annoucements about their future.
"Marriage certificates are not closed documents. They are public record. Birth certificates usually are as well unless requested to be closed. Normally only granted when the child's safety may be at risk."
DeleteActually, only birth certificates and marriage licenses issued over a certain number years ago are available publicly.
You should probably take time to familiarize yourself with Ontario law regarding birth and marriage certificates. These documents are not available to the public. The only people who can have a copy of Little Moir's birth certificate are Tessa, Scott, and Little Moir herself when she turns 13. The marriage certificates are limited to the couple themselves, and other very close relatives such as children and parents. They're not available to the public and can only be requested by a certain small set of people.
As far as the sightings this week, I'd surmise if they are real sightings, it's not uncommon for a parent to leave a three year old at home for a trip to the store or for one parent to go to the gas station.
Also, how convenient that you yourself are from London and saw Tessa by herself.
In Canada, marriage and birth certificates are closed documents. They can be requested by family members, not by random members of the public. The only other way to obtain them is by court order or through some kind of law enforcement investigation.
Delete"I am not even trying to say isn't actually true, just that without hard evidence something cannot be called a fact. Knowing something and it being fact are not the same thing."
You are assuming that the people who know V/M are married with a child don't have "hard evidence." Meaning what, they haven't picked up a marriage or birth certificate and held it in their hands? People know firsthand because they know V/M, or their families/friends, or have spoken to them about it directly, or met the child, or have been in the room with them when the marriage and child were discussed by them or their families/friends, etc.
Just because you don't have what you require to "believe" doesn't mean that the people who do know the truth don't actually "know it" because they don't have the things you are defining as "irrefutable evidence" or "hard proof." I can assure you, I know that all of my family members and friends who are married are in fact, legally married, and I know this without ever having looked at or seen an official marriage certificate.
"Many people know this. That you require irrefutable proof to believe it is your call, but I can assure you, it's not about "believing." It's about knowing. And plenty of people know. That they aren't going to shell out photos of a child without the permission of her parents, or out official, closed documents that "prove" a marriage, is, I would hope, understandable to the people calling for those things to be released as some kind of "proof."
DeleteThis is what surprises me the most. The way people talk about it on this blog, it's like hundreds of people know the truth, but not one person is willing to post a picture or even give the name of the kid. Even if they find the sham disgusting and are appalled by the tv show. I wonder if V/M feel so comfortable doing what they do because they know that no one will ever sell them out. Amazing that there are hundreds of people out there who can hold such high moral standards, even when they see that V/M and family don't hold such standards themselves and laugh at all those who do. At some level, I think the people they laugh at the most are those fans who actually know the truth, but won't out them.
"A fact is a universal truth that is irrefutable because it is backed by evidence that all agree upon."
DeleteHard evidence abounds that proves carbon dating is an accurate radiometric dating method. There are many people in this world who refuse to believe it. Doesn't make the results less factual. The Holocaust during World War II resulted in the deaths of over six million people, and there is mountains of evidence that proves who was behind the killings, why, and how they were carried out. Some people still deny that proof exists or have done everything in their power to claim it is skewed or ahistorical. Their denial doesn't make it less factual.
We can play this game for days. Twisting words or trying to pinpoint how to define what constitutes "hard evidence" does not change the fact that V/M are married with a child.
I won't even try to argue that I'm not wrong on some things I've said. There are circumstances where a regular person could obtain marriage records but usually only with consent from the person the records are about. Usually though rare from what I do know. Normally by a student in university or media, etc. Someone with a legitimate reason
DeleteI never once said it couldn't be true, because I do understand that there is certainly a chance of that. I'm even willing to go as far as to say there is certainly a strong possibility to it being truth. Still a fact and knowing something are different things is all. I guess you could say my main concern is the wording used. Saying something is a fact means that it is universally truth and agreed upon by all.
I'm not assuming people don't have proof or the knowledge of things, just that nothing concrete has been presented so by definition it is not a fact is all.
I agree about it being common to leave a small child at home when shopping and such. It is convenient that I saw her and and from London as are many other people since it isn't exactly a small city. I certainly won't claim to know either of them.
Just like I've been to Ilderton many times as I have family throughout the area. Seeing that I was born and raised in the area after all. No more convenient though than having seen members of Canada's Olympic hockey team in the past.
" but not one person is willing to post a picture or even give the name of the kid."
DeleteTessa and Scott may be very gross with the shamming and their behavior, but that doesn't mean we're going to go around violating the privacy of a minor. You seem to forget that for all that Tessa and Scott have done, they were the ones who did it, not Little Moir. She's a three-year-old child. Whatever her parents are done, people are going to be cautious about a child. No one is going to post photos of her or tell you her name.
VM may stoop to a low level, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to.
oh god not godwin's law.
Delete"I never once said it couldn't be true, because I do understand that there is certainly a chance of that. I'm even willing to go as far as to say there is certainly a strong possibility to it being truth. Still a fact and knowing something are different things is all. I guess you could say my main concern is the wording used. Saying something is a fact means that it is universally truth and agreed upon by all.
DeleteI'm not assuming people don't have proof or the knowledge of things, just that nothing concrete has been presented so by definition it is not a fact is all."
You have absolutely no grasp of logic or how facts work. 9:56 gave a great rundown of how people disagree on major events in world history, like the Holocaust during World War II.
That YOU have not been presented with the evidence YOU want does not change the FACT that VM are married and the parents of a young daughter. There's not some sort of threshold of people knowing and agreeing something that must be met for something to be a fact.
10:04, Godwin's Law involves calling someone worse than Hitler. Referencing World War II and the Holocaust as a historical event in which some people dissent despite a mountain of evidence is not invoking Godwin's Law.
Delete"I'm not assuming people don't have proof or the knowledge of things, just that nothing concrete has been presented so by definition it is not a fact is all."
DeleteNo, I'm sorry. That makes no sense. Nothing concrete has been presented here so that means Tessa and Scott's marriage and child isn't factual? You're inferring "because I haven't seen it, that means it's not universally agreed upon, which means it's not a fact."
That is wrong.
"oh god not godwin's law."
I thought it would make a good point of how absurdist it is to assume that because not everyone agrees with something, it is not factual. Godwin's Law insinuates that arguments have reached the level of absurdity, does it not?
Technically, it was invoked, though somewhat indirectly, I admit. Still works, though. :)
DeleteMy grasp of logic and facts is quite fine thanks.
DeleteI was typing my other response as the Holocaust example was posted so it never appeared to me until afterward. I won't even argue against the example as it was well thought out and explained.
Once again it seems that the FACT that I was willing to agree it was quite possible was ignored.
Many times the truth can be a matter of perspective. What one chooses to believe.
Everything you know to be true says they are married with child and that is quite alright. I do not know these to be completely true so I have to take it at least partially with a grain of salt since I can't confirm or fully deny either way.
I never came here to argue, believe it or not. I actually enjoy the different perspective of things here to be honest. Its nice to hear thoughts of people who don't think they're all perfect and such as other blogs out there would like to believe. I just don't want to blindly believe something either way. If I wanted the complete blind way of thinking, I'd follow along with everything the media tells me is true and would never have come to a blog like this for alternate possibilities.
It is obvious we will continue to agree to disagree about things here.
Godwin's Law could be looked at differently depending who you asks and how they interpret it.
Absurdity is one option or just used as a way to try and prevent an argument from continuing.
Why can't those who claim to know that TS are married and have a child simply say how they know about it ? Stating that they have in fact seen the kid or talked to somebody close to VM wouldn't violate anyone's privacy and it wouldn't give away their identities either so no one would have to fear consequences. Why all this beating around the bush ? So far nobody could even tell for sure what gender the kid supposedly has. People just guess it's a girl based on one of Scott's interviews.
Delete"I wonder if V/M feel so comfortable doing what they do because they know that no one will ever sell them out. Amazing that there are hundreds of people out there who can hold such high moral standards, even when they see that V/M and family don't hold such standards themselves and laugh at all those who do. At some level, I think the people they laugh at the most are those fans who actually know the truth, but won't out them."
DeleteOnly fools would believe they can get away with lying incessantly and no one would ever out them or it wouldn't come back to bite them in the ass. That's the ultimate idiocy in all of this, if in fact V/M actually believe no one would ever try to expose them, or be successful in doing so. There is no legal maneuver in the world that can stop everyone, just as their is no guarantee that the people who have agreed to facilitate their lying won't turn around in the future and blow it all out in the open at their discretion. That's why V/M upping the ante is so amazing, in a sense. Are they doing it because they honestly believe they can get away with anything? Or that upping the ante will put them in a position where they CAN'T come clean, so that's why they did it? If they think what they're doing isn't a big deal, they wouldn't be flying Scott Moir's fake fucking girlfriend to Sochi, Russia so she could appear in a few select media shots (to be shown either now or later) or enlisting dozens of family members and friends to help hoax the public via a variety of different media platforms.
If they believe they are untouchable, especially after shoving their lies down the public's throat via a television show, and continuing to reiterate in numerous publications that their portrayal on that show was genuine and "THE REAL US" (they love that phrase), they are officially two of the dumbest celebrities that ever lived. That kind of hubris almost always backfires in the end, especially when it is constructed upon a foundation of ass-backwardness.
"Stating that they have in fact seen the kid or talked to somebody close to VM wouldn't violate anyone's privacy and it wouldn't give away their identities either so no one would have to fear consequences. Why all this beating around the bush ? So far nobody could even tell for sure what gender the kid supposedly has. People just guess it's a girl based on one of Scott's interviews."
DeleteHoly incorrect assumptions, Batman. Some people who know about V/M's marriage have posted here and explained how they know. Others, such as the blogger, have said they won't out how they know for reasons specific to them. You are free to believe that "disproves" V/M's marriage of the existence of a child. No one is going to spend all day long trying to convince you. That's the great thing about a truth. It doesn't become untrue just because someone doesn't believe it.
10:12 PM wiki defines godwin's law as: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." godwin's law isnt calling someone worse than hitler. godwin's law is more complex than that. and it was invoked albeit indirectly, as 10:15 says.
Deleteisn't just**
Delete"Many times the truth can be a matter of perspective. What one chooses to believe."
DeleteAre you crazy? The world is flat - that's my perspective! It's my truth!
I know this is a narcissistic world we live in but in actuality, no, truth does not depend on one's personal perspective. Scott and Tessa's marriage and their daughter is a fact, not a viewpoint or belief system.
The above conversational thread simply reads as one person wanting proof for themselves; that's it.
I don't believe that if someone who previously didn't have proof of their own about Scott and Tessa and their daughter, SAW Scott and Tessa and their daughter, that person would take a picture and upload it on the web. They'd go crazy in emails and pms, sure, but instagram? Tumblr? Facebook? In public for everyone to see? No way.
Why? Because just seeing them would satisfy that person about Scott and Tessa's actual status.
The problem here seems to be people who are uncomfortable not knowing for themselves, and so they want others to tell help them out and tell them what the proof might be.
That doesn't take into account that *I* for example, am not made uncomfortable by their discomfort. Their problem isn't my problem.
I believe if these people had their own proof they wouldn't be motivated to show it to the world. They're concerned with themselves, feeling satisfied in their own mind. That's behind all the agitation and complaining about why don't you share how you know.
I wouldn't put a photo of Little Moir on this blog if I had an album full on my computer, as long as her parents keep her off the web (or keep her unidentified on the web). She's not responsible for what her parents do. There's enough grotesque litter left on the web by her parents.
At the same time, it's their job to protect her, not mine. It's also not the fans' job to protect Scott and Tessa from themselves or to protect their daughter from their stupidity. It was their job not to use the exterior of their family home in the reality show. If they're going to go this big with the hoax, then they have to know how the web works and not assume because a plate is blurred out or we can't see a street address, privacy is preserved. For God's sake. You are hiding your real stuff. Don't put ANY of your real stuff on camera, particularly not your fucking home.
I am definitely sympathetic with those who think going around real estate web sites and putting together that the house we saw on the reality show is the house where Scott and Tessa live, and was purchased by Scott Moir (and the address is on the web page) - is going a bit far. It's unnecessary IMO, but then again, I know they're married and live together already.
However, this information was obtained from the public domain. What's in the public domain is the responsibility of Scott and Tessa, not the fans. It was their choice to use the exterior of the house on the fucking reality show. That's insane.
Skating fans may think it took a lot of effort and web savvy to connect the house on the reality show with the address and purchase history, but there are people on the web - ordinary people - who can dig up that information in about thirty seconds, based on what Scott and Tessa have put out there. If they wanted to protect themselves they should have used neutral exteriors, not their family home. It should not have been on a network show. That's on THEM. It's not on fans. It's insane to expect fans to protect Scott and Tessa from the stuff they've put on the PUBLIC DOMAIN.
Scott and Tessa always seem to think other people are stupider than they are, and that is setting the bar dangerously low.
Look at this:
ReplyDeletehttp://uwindsorlance.ca/2014/02/27/all-you-can-eat-sochi/
When stupid journalists want to pretend to write as "experts" but they repeat the established narrative that DW have a "more difficult program" than VM, it's no wonder corruption in the scoring can happen right under the eye of the viewers.
There is an old saying. "Don't serve up your talents in an ash tray." Yes, Virtue and Moir are superior skaters. "Seasons" was an ash tray. It did not work. Journalists saw that, judges saw that. The fact that a segment of the fan population, which is what this blog represents, did not see it and believes superior skills should shine through any ol' program, is absurd to anyone who works day-in, day-out in elite figure skating.
ReplyDeleteCoP was meant to remove the subjectivity from ice dance scoring so it wouldn't get thrown out of the damned Olympics. 4 years ago, the skating world was priding itself on skating and ice dance having been cleaned up. If we've gone back to subjective criteria, then it's time for ice dance to be thrown out of the Olympics because it's not a sport, it's a performance art.
DeleteAnd, fucking yes, superior skills are what matters in sport, not the program theme. In no sport should the theatrical be more important than the technical. And having a theme preference is no reason at all to overlook technical criteria in the rulebook. Come down on a flat and miss a step in a step sequence? Not a level 4 because it wasn't 100% clean. Come down on the wrong edge or flat in a key point? You shouldn't get credit for it? Don't do enough rotations for a feature to count for levels? You shouldn't get credit.
And if we are talking them and grabbing the audience, explain why NDP was scored over Carmen or why VM's SD this season was behind DW's?
Anon 12:25: "Journalists saw that". We've already identified that the journalists know jackshit about ice dance.
DeleteSo anon at 12:25 pm - would you blame the ashtray on both Zoueva and Skate Canada? Because my recollection of Seasons according to Zoueva and choosing a Russian theme was as a present to Russia...
DeleteI wouldn't call Schez a masterpiece either...with all the hopping and two footing in the program - yikes...curlers actually kept their feet on the ice longer on one stone thrown than DW did...
Shez was a piece of shit from both technical and theatrical standpoints. An over-used piece of music that they didn't interpret in any innovative way through their technique. And really, we were supposed to believe that Meryl was seducing Charlie to escape her death? They looked like two Disney characters running around on the ice. It was laughable.
DeleteWhen V/M skated to Carmen, they didn't use any of the cliché Carmen interpretations: female in a red dress and flower in her hair, male in a toreador costume, Spanish/flamenco-ish movements (see Katarina Witt, Navka/Kostomorov). They took a cliché-ridden piece of music and completely turned it on its head, down the black costumes. That's why it was so memorable, and that's why any subsequent Carmens will have the same approach (see Max Aaron's blatant rip-off this season).
It's so true. Seasons was an ash tray because it wasn't a spectacularly putrid display of hopping, skipping, open hold, weak transitioned, non-skating. Those people who work "day-in, day-out in elite figure skating" could see it, but alas, V/M and their coaches could not. Oh, if only they could have come to their senses rather than creating programs intended to fit within the parameters of CoP and show off their superior skating skills. WHO GIVES A RATS ASS ABOUT SKATING SKILLS? WHAT DO THEY MATTER IN FIGURE SKATING? PSSHH.
DeleteThanks for the laugh.
While I agree Seasons was a mistake and didn't help their case, I'm not sure any program would have given them the gold. The momentum and narrative had gone the way of D/W so that even a great SD couldn't get them the scores they needed to win that segment. I actually think they were underscored even more in the SD than the FD and that makes no sense if we're only looking at program quality.
DeleteAnon 3:31: Seasons was a mistake? Seasons was a brilliant program because it showcased V/M's superb skating skills. This is nothing about the package, IT'S ABOUT THE SKATING, STUPID>
DeleteAnd no, momentum and narrative did not go the way of D/W; stone-cold corruption did. A blind person could see the fix was in; the fix has been in for several years now. What happened in Sochi was the tip of the iceberg of the fucking corruption that had to happen "justify" this fake win that had nothing to do with skating, and all about PR and politics.
If D/W were actually held to the rulebook, they wouldn't even make the US Olympic team, that's how shitty they are. Instead, the ISU created two rule books: one for V/M and everybody else, and one for D/W.
Seasons was not a mistake. The program was designed to show off V/M's story and the progression of their skating in the four years since the last Olympics. It did that. Everything in that program was of the highest difficulty level and at the Olympics they executed it perfectly.
DeleteDespite it being representative of a really weak attempt to rile up the posters here, what the anon @12:25 PM's comment so accurately embodies is the fucked up reality of the current situation in ice dance. S/he is saying it is ABSURD a program be built around the display of superior skating skills, power, and precision and that what is more important is the choreography/theme of a PROGRAM itself. Basically, that the packaging of the program is what matters, and the actual skating is secondary (or in D/W's case, basically non-existent). THAT IS WHY SKATING IS NOT A SPORT.
dream a little dream of me was not an astray tho and it was still heavily underscored.
DeleteNeither program was an ash tray. That is quite possibly the dumbest description of Seasons I have heard yet. There was nothing wrong with the programs, they were brilliant in their construction as per CoP regulations and V/M built/edited them over the course of the season and then executed them superbly in the individual ice dance competition and still lost to less difficult programs performed by a team with inferior skating skills. Politics gave D/W a gold medal at the Olympics, and that result was under construction for over a year beforehand. It's not that difficult to understand, and it was clear to more than just one segment of the fan population. There are people who work in "day-in, day-out elite figure skating" who were fully aware of what was happening or at least suspected what was going on long before it occurred in Sochi. Whether they had the power to do anything about it is another story. But spare me the "journalists saw that, judges saw that" bullshit. They saw what they decided they wanted or were told to see (or not see).
Delete@3:57 I agree it's fucked up but program theme and packaging (along with PR) matters a whole lot - that's the reality of this so-called sport. If you want to win, especially in an Olympic year, you have to take these things into account.
DeleteIf it were about the program theme and packaging, Carmen would have won everything by 10 points last season. It didn't. VM's SD this season would have won over DW at every outing too.
DeleteDW's win was solely due to politics and corruption. It was engineered and the push started before Vancouver.
@Anon 3:57; assuming for a moment that the "package and theme" has anything to do with the fucking sport (which it doesn't, but whatever), enlighten us please as to how Shez was a better program theme and package.
DeleteWhat? I'm anon @3:57 and I didn't say Shez was a better program theme and package. I was saying that anyone claiming it is ABSURD that a program be built around superior skating skills, power, and speed (as V/M's program *was*) basically proves how fucked up this sport has become. That such an opinion would ever be considered valid, in any capacity, IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE SPORT OF FIGURE SKATING. IT'S WHY IT'S NOT A SPORT. Several people decided to basically hijack the entire fucking system, redefine everything so that good skating from V/M was scored lower than inferior skating by D/W, and so on, IS WHAT HAPPENED OVER THE PAST FEW SEASONS.
Delete"@3:57 I agree it's fucked up but program theme and packaging (along with PR) matters a whole lot - that's the reality of this so-called sport. If you want to win, especially in an Olympic year, you have to take these things into account."
DeleteV/M *DID* take program theme and packaging into account. They did everything they were supposed to do in those categories, except not sell out their skating by claiming they were doing anything other than what they were actually doing. They never said "we're doing this on the ice!" and then didn't do it, which is what D/W did until they turned blue in the face.
V/M's PR was a disaster, yes. Their federation did nothing to help them because they seemed too busy nodding their heads in the direction of whatever the USFSA said. You want to know what way the wind blows at Skate Canada? Try looking southward.
Anon 3:57, you still haven't validated your claim "...but program theme and packaging (along with PR) matters a whole lot". So they talked about how their program was three years in the making. Big fucking deal, because all their elements were three years behind (anybody who saw V/M's Carmen or P/B handstand lift from this year sees that D/W's lift was a cheap rip-off). People are still getting the sour taste out their mouths from Evan Lysack's hideous Shez in 2010 and now they're being hit over the head with another Shez in an Olympic year.
DeleteV/M's PR is indeed a disaster, but they never shied away from explaining that it was a special piece of music chosen because it was Russian AND never skated to before, and it was the story of their careers. That's a much more compelling and original narrative than beaten-to-death Shez.
"Anon 3:57, you still haven't validated your claim "...but program theme and packaging (along with PR) matters a whole lot"."
DeleteI'm anon @3:57, and I DIDN'T MAKE THAT CLAIM. In my post, I was re-stating the claim 12:25 made in order to mock it as STUPID.
@5:39 I assume you were talking to me (5:32). It's not so much that Shez was inherently better but that if fit better with the theme and package expected of an Olympic program:
DeleteIt uses well-know music with lots of highlights that builds to an exciting ending. All the music cuts come from the same ballet and are linked to a recognizable storyline. It's exciting with a lot of wow factor in the lifts. It looks really hard. It has detailed upper body posing. It has an exotic theme, something that often goes over well with audiences. And more than anything, it's very accessible.
Now, do I think it's a good program in terms of artistry, in terms of pushing themselves or displaying great skating? Not at all. But if you were looking for a program that tries to tick all the boxes, this is it. It's like a soulless Hollywood movie that hits all the cliches but still does well at the box office because, hey, it works.
The skating community likes to perpetuate the everybody-can-be-a-judge! narrative about FS and so, especially at the Olympics, easily accessible programs will get a bit of a boost in the scores. It's not just D/W, look at Hanyu's and Sotnikova's inflated PCS scores. Part of it is politics no doubt but I think part of it is also choosing the right kind of programs.
Sorry 3:57, make that 5:32...confused the posts. Sorry about.
Delete@6:50: well-known music is a double-edged sword. Lovely as the music of Shez is (and if you watched the closing ceremonies, the organizers did it justice with that beautiful intrepreation), I'm sure most people were like "oh fuck, not another Shez", especially since D/W's intrepreation of it was totally insipid. When V/M debuted Carmen last year, it made you take notice, because they intrepreted in such an unexpected, uncliched way.
DeleteAs for "Seasons" being unknown, yes, it is, but I'm sure many people looked up "The Seasons" on Wiki afterwards, and I'm sure we'll now see many skaters use Seasons in the future (maybe not ice dancers, necessarily, but skaters in other disciplines).
V/M's "Seasons" builds to a wonderful crescendo, especially in that last lift where Tessa has her arms up in triumph. My co-workers who know nothing about ice dance later remarked that they looked fluid and graceful when they moved, and that was their lasting impression. They had no impression of D/W at all, just that they looked awkward and competely fake.
I think we sometimes overthink what people's reactions should be, but when one sees something beautiful and breath taking, as Seasons (and Mahler before it), themes, storylines, etc are moot; all you know is that you've just witnessed something very beautiful and special.
Similarly with V/M's SD, even if you didn't know a three-turn from a twizzle, you could see that these were two people actually dancing on the ice. I believe Sylvia Fontona's (who was doing commentary for the Italian broadcaster) was that she could watch them dance all day.
D/W looked like cast-offs from a Disney-on-Ice show, that's how "memorable" Shez was.
As for inflated PCS, that had nothing to do with the programs, and all about corruption; what was so memorable about either Hanyu's or Sotnikova's programs? Nothing. D/W got those inflated marks before they even stepped on the ice. The only way there weren't going to get marks is if they forgot their skates at the athlete's village or they face-planted in the first 10 seconds of their program, and even then, the judges would have awarded them with Level 4s and +3 GOE.
^^just to clarify, what was accessible about Hanyu's program, specifically? Patrick's "Four Seasons" program was much more accessible and familiar, and it was an obvious case of "the boys vs the men"; Patrick's program's oozed sophistication and maturity. And what was accessible about Sotnikova's programs, especially in stark comparison to Kostner's brilliant Bolero program or Kim's tango?
Delete3:31 again Seasons had its issues but one thing it did very well was showcase V/M's skating skills, something Carmen didn't do that well. And yet, they never won the skating skills PCS category. How does that happen? I know judges have a lot to think about in a short amount of time but the difference is blindingly obvious. How can they sometimes give V/M the nod in interpretation but never in SS? You can never completely take subjectivity out of the judging for things like performance but the guidelines for skating skills are very clear and V/M have a clear advantage for every single bullet point.
ReplyDeleteDear God, 3:44. Carmen was textbook showcasing of skating skills. THE ELEMENTS WERE CHOREOGRAPHY. Do you understand what that means? Scott and Tessa had to use choreography to enter and exit their elements, specific choreography that hewed to a modern dance vocabulary, and since the exits and entrances (as well as everything else) in Carmen were choreography, they had to rely upon skating skills to pull it off. The choreography didn't descend to meet their skating skills, their skating skills had to accomodate a very specific chorographic vocabulary in the process of executing required ice dance elements.
DeleteI SWEAR, this discussion often becomes depressing, not just about the judging, but about the perception of even fans of Virtue and Moir. Jesus Christ.
The Youtube police are on the hunt...all of V/M's Vancouver performances have been blocked. If you have any of their performances posted, hide them for the next little while.
ReplyDeleteIt's the type of block that happens automatically without them having to find it first, so unlisting it won't matter.
Deletem.huffpost.com/ca/entry/4808299/
ReplyDelete:)))))))))) again, I can't stop laughing :))))))))
Has something like this been done before in figure skating or are VM the first people to lie about their private lives to such an extent?
ReplyDeleteIn the past, there were pairs and dance teams who lied the other way, saying they were a couple when they really weren't in order to play up the chemistry angle. Some of the USSR pairs and dance teams married though so they could get better apartments and other perks.
DeleteIn the present day, WP are also pretending to be platonic, but they don't seem to have the gross sham component.
Yeah, WP "say" they're platonic but they don't go the extra step and try to "prove" they're platonic. They don't pretend they don't do stuff together, don't pretend they don't live together and vacation together, and Andrew's family seems unconcerned that fans might think their precious boy is gay if he's not banging Kaitlyn.
DeleteYou'll all be interested to know that there are now NO Virtue/ Moir performances on YouTube from either Olympics (10' and 14') in the US. The IOC blocked the content. They haven't taken anyone else's videos down though. #comeonnow
ReplyDeleteI noticed recently that the IOC blocked a bunch of stuff from Vancouver, but it's not just V/M, so ??? not sure what you're talking about. At least in Canada, the only figure skating video that seems to be avaiable from 2010 are the full events on the official youtube channel.
DeleteIf they wanted to make sure we couldn't watch it, I think they probably would have thought to take the whole event off their own channel...
Deletehttp://youtu.be/BKYe_qMnbPo
are the '14 ones from cbc still around?
DeleteAnon 3:03, here you go:
Deletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq-e_Jkf91s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7F0969uvqw
And their exhibition as well; looks like Scott kissed the rings here as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rTo6sgTmFM
DeleteToday I watched Grishuk/Platov's 1997 Worlds FD ("Arabian Passion"), and almost 17 years later, they still beat DW in terms of connection and presentation. G/P had a lot more personality, too.
ReplyDeleteCassandra has apparently changed her FB profile pic to one of her cuddling up to some other guy. Prepare for VM fandom meltdown in 3...2...1.....
ReplyDelete2:37 Really, who the hell cares.
DeleteThat might the the reason why it has been so awfully quiet lately. Playing with the fans some more before they assault US with new beach pics from Aruba in the summer ...
DeleteVM will do lots of shows and probably more TV appearances where they'll have to play up the will they, won't they ? sham some more and a pining girl in London isn't beneficial for that.
Or Cassandra finally realized that she isn't getting anything out of this and found herself a new sugar daddy.
After all she was promised to be the girlfriend of an Olympic gold medalist, she did not sign up for a silver.
He already is an Olympic Gold Medalist. :)
Deleteyeah no one took away his OGM
Delete"Meanwhile, she (Zoueva) reminded White that she was counting on a more "erotic" performance and that he needed to really connect with Davis. Apparently, he did too.
ReplyDelete"When Charlie smiled and showed how he adored Meryl, I just melted because I want a man to look at me like that," Zoueva said."
is zoueva fucking serious with this???
The DW rhetoric gets more sickening by the moment. Just when you think it can't get any worse, they come out with yet another idiotic quote.
DeleteThat has to be a joke right? Please tell me that Zoueva doesn't actually think that D&W have any kind of chemistry or are talented ice dancers? I thought she knew that they were inferior skaters but went along with it so that she could say she's coached 2 "Gold" medal teams for her merits as a coach?
DeleteShe can't really think that D&W has somehow surpassed V&M in talent? Or is it a matter of if you tell yourself the same lie so many times you actually start believing it?
i have no clue. i found the quote on a stupid blog post titled "tessa and scott vs meryl and charlie" so i dont know the original source.
DeleteOh, good grief. I swear, Zoueva could say "Charlie White is a sweet boy" and some of you would lose your fucking minds because you'd claim her saying that about Charlie means she doesn't believe that about Scott.
DeleteYou're wrong if you think Zoueva doesn't believe all of her teams have specific types of chemistry and are talented ice dancers. She's their coach. Of course she would think and say that. Nowhere in that quote did she say she thinks D/W have surpassed V/M in talent.
For fuck's sake, I agree that V/M got royally screwed by the judges and D/W's "they're the best" narrative was part of that, but the way some of you guys pick at every single fucking thing out of D/W's or their coaches' mouths is ridiculous and over the top. Zoueva and D/W are essentially saying the same things about this program that they did about Samson and Delilah, talking about passion and an undeniable chemistry. Go back and look at D/W articles from 2007, 2008, and onward. You'll find that stuff written. It's nothing new. You guys are losing your shit as though all of this emphasis on D/W's chemistry in the press suddenly started happening over the past two years. You're wrong. It's always been there.
What hurt V/M wasn't Zoueva or anyone else saying D/W have chemistry on the ice. It was people saying V/M's skating had regressed and allowed them to be bypassed by D/W, none of which Zoueva or the other Canton coaches ever said. It was said at places like icenetwork, and TSL, and other American skating mouthpieces.
You guys want to make an impact on changing the sport for the better, and that's commendable. But losing your fucking minds over every single thing out of someone's mouth isn't going to accomplish shit but make you look like whiny ubers with an axe to grind. Pick your fucking battles and focus on the way the narrative was REALLY damaging V/M.
Once again the Marina apologists have to twist themselves into knots to justify her words... if these quotes are true, why would she be talking about such silly stuff? Why would she be talking about the program packaging, and the "sexy touching" (which she has, in other sourced interviews). I thought it wasn't this program vs. that program, it was only about the skating displayed by the packaging, so why is such a knowledgeable and astute coach talking about such things? I mean, if it's ignorant for fans to do so, then it's really fucking ignorant for a coach.
DeleteShe's talking about this stuff because she's politicking for D&W. But wait, the Marina fans here claim that politicking is not the coaches job, and that Marina doesn't do it for either team... so again, I ask, why in the world would the coach be talking about that kind of nonsense?
FTR, I would've rolled my eyes if she'd said this about VM too, because I would have expected her to be able to say something more substantive about their skating and technical abilities, so I'm not jealous she said this about Charlie instead of Scott. I will admit that if you tally up all her comments over the season, it feels much more pro-DW to me, with no negative comments about them and a few questionable ones about VM (such as they have just not skated their FD to the max yet), and as a fan I can't abide that, though apparently VM can. *shrug*
I'm not sure how it's being a Marina apologist to point out that when people take EVERY SINGLE THING THAT EVER COMES OUT OF HER MOUTH AS AN INSULT, they are letting themselves go overboard in their assessment of the situation. Dislike her all you want, feel free. But spare us with the idea that in saying she wishes some man looked at her like Charlie looked at Meryl during a program, this indicates she was saying she believes they're a better team than V/M.
DeleteOF COURSE she's going to believe D/W have chemistry and are great skaters. She's their coach, for God's sake! She believes and says the same fucking things about V/M. She's ALWAYS done this in interviews about BOTH TEAMS, since back before the 2010 Olympics in Vancouver. Go back and read her comments. She is saying nothing different than she always has.
I love how if anyone points out how OVER THE TOP this kind of bitching has become, this means that person is an apologist. Spare me. You're pissed at Zoueva because she's doing the same things she's always done, which is praise all of her teams.
"I will admit that if you tally up all her comments over the season, it feels much more pro-DW to me, with no negative comments about them and a few questionable ones about VM (such as they have just not skated their FD to the max yet), and as a fan I can't abide that, though apparently VM can. *shrug*"
V/M were the ones saying they were not skating their FD to the max yet, because they've always been clear that they don't intend to max out until the Olympics or Worlds. They're right, they don't. And that's the way it's supposed to be. When they say it, it's okay. When Zoueva says it - OFF WITH HER FUCKING HEAD.
"I'm not sure how it's being a Marina apologist to point out that when people take EVERY SINGLE THING THAT EVER COMES OUT OF HER MOUTH AS AN INSULT"
DeletePeople here do the same thing with Tessa from the books she reads to the kind of music she likes to an analysis of why her voice cracks. And I'm here as a fan of VM, not Marina, so that's far more irritating.
"V/M were the ones saying they were not skating their FD to the max yet, because they've always been clear that they don't intend to max out until the Olympics or Worlds. They're right, they don't. And that's the way it's supposed to be. When they say it, it's okay. When Zoueva says it - OFF WITH HER FUCKING HEAD. "
Except that wasn't all there was to it. Margaglio said from Finlandia that they didn't do their job. And they end up changing the straightline lift AT the fucking Olympics. They didn't even need Scott to be on one fucking foot (and with his leg swinging parallel to hers, even) to get the level, but instead of fixing this problem before, Marina yet again shrugs it off in the press to say they just haven't skated the program well. Which isn't even true, considering GPF (I can't remember if that particular interview was before or after GPF). It definitely reminded me of last year's shoulder shrugs from Marina (oh well, the Shibs lost silver at Nationals cause of some deductions, and oh well, the twizzle mistake at Worlds must have been the dress). Of course, Marina did not point out that oh well, DW did not skate their best and lost levels at 2012 Worlds.
Anon 8:24: Their coaches didn't change the straight line lift. The FUCKING ISU made them change it, in the same way it made them change the original exit from the Mahler Goose, and made them change their second lift in their Farrcus OD moments before they took to the ice at 2010 Worlds. THE FUCKING, CORRUPT ISU that told Marina they wanted V/M to skate to something dramatic, and they came up with Carmen, the most brilliant, difficult FD of all time that should scored 120+points at every outing, and didn't because the fucking ISU pissed all over it. They saw a team that took the standard of the rulebook and raised it, and instead of awarding it, they cowered like the fuckers they are elevated an inferior team instead.
DeleteIt doesn't matter what Marina said/did, it doesn't matter what programs V/M skated to, it doesn't matter if V/M had great PR or if Skate Canada did their fucking jobs. D/W were going to get handed this get gold, short of forgetting their skates at home. It was a heist job years in the making.
Full credit to V/M for skating to brilliant, difficult and original programs that will long be remembered. Full credit to them for staying after Vancouver and pushing their sport, and giving us memorable programs most notably, Carmen. They will have an enduring legacy, because they changed the sport for the better, reminding us that ice dance is a sport. D/W will be remembered for their dirty gold.
^^make that full credit to V/M for skating two brilliant, difficult and original programs in Sochi that will long be remembered.
DeleteThe situation with the straightline lift was different than the lifts from 2010. In those cases, someone warned them at the last minute that the exits from those lifts could be illegal and get a deduction. AFAIK, nothing of the sort happened with the straightline this year. My understanding is somehow it was blamed for messing with their timing in the following step sequence, causing it drop to a level 2.
DeleteIt's not hard to see there have been problems with the straightline lift from the very first competition. They have struggled with it more than once; some fans called it a barometer for their performance. If they hit it, you know it would be a good skate. They visibly struggled with it in the Team FD and almost didn't get it up. A technical coach should've changed that long before then, since it had a lot of extra features to it that were not necessary to the level and were actually hurting them by negatively affecting the GOE (which is insane, but that's the system) if they weren't perfect.
I agree with you, that they skated brilliantly in Sochi and deserved to win in the end. It's completely unfair that they were judged based on mistakes earlier in the season (and even with mistakes, their element execution is cleaner than DW's "clean"), while Sotnikova for example got a huge jump in scores when she stopped making mistakes, and Hanyu got great PCS even with major mistakes.
"She believes and says the same fucking things about V/M." how come she didnt say anything about it this season though?
Delete"'She believes and says the same fucking things about V/M." how come she didnt say anything about it this season though?"
DeleteThis kind of comment is fucking maddening. She did! God, you guys come across like the crowd who hates President Obama so much that everything he says, no matter how mundane, is somehow proof he's out to destroy the United States of America. Because they despise him, in their estimation, nothing he does or says is acceptable. So they snipe at EVERY SINGLE WORD OUT OF HIS MOUTH with responses like "CAN YOU BELIEVE HE WOULD SAY THAT, IS HE SERIOUS?" or "IS THIS A JOKE? HOW COULD HE BELIEVE THAT?" When they do that, they kill the credibility of their policy arguments/complaints that *are* valid. Because everyone expects them to blow their tops about anything he says, so why should they be taken seriously?
@8:57 is right. If judges/the ISU recommended the lift be changed, there is no way Zoueva is going to come out and criticize that. She's not stupid. Neither are V/M. You'll notice they didn't criticize either. They did it, period.
I think the issue is this: fans are pissed about what has happened over the past couple of seasons, and they want someone to stand up and shout about it to the rooftops, so they start fucking COUNTING the number of times Zoueva says nice things about D/W vs. how much she says nice things about V/M, and if it tips in D/W's favor somehow, this is where they direct all of their energy. Because MEDIA NARRATIVE!
Read @8:57's post again. This part, in particular:
"It doesn't matter what Marina said/did, it doesn't matter what programs V/M skated to, it doesn't matter if V/M had great PR or if Skate Canada did their fucking jobs. D/W were going to get handed this get gold, short of forgetting their skates at home. It was a heist job years in the making."
I disagree that NONE of those things would have mattered if they were handled better (powerful feds make a HUGE difference). BUT, the crux of the argument is correct. When you look at what was happening over the past few seasons, it was clear a major heist job was building. D/W could do no wrong, even when they did so. V/M were also pulling in sky high scores, but they weren't defeating D/W. That's an ISU issue, not a coaching issue.
- continued from 2:46 PM -
DeleteThe problem for V/M is that Zoueva coaches D/W. NOT that she coaches both teams, but that she coaches D/W, period. Her choreography has brilliantly packaged them, in a smoke and mirrors fashion, for years. After the 2011-2012 season, a full court press started to get them to the top in Sochi because sans Lysacek, D/W were the highest ranking American skaters, silver medalists in Vancouver, and the best bet to medal in Sochi.
If V/M went to any other coach, Zoueva would STILL coach D/W and the fix STILL would have been in for them. V/M, as well as every other team in ice dance except D/W, was at the mercy of a major campaign to put D/W on top of the podium in Russia. The fact that Zoueva was going to benefit from D/W winning because she coaches them is what makes people so mad. But just as all of the skaters were at the mercy of the system being hijacked, so were the coaches. If you speak out, who gets further punished? All of your teams? Possibly. The idea that Zoueva has all of this power and should have been able to come forward with her complaints is preposterous. That doesn't happen in ice dance.
It's very easy to assume that Marina was happy to let things continue on as is because she didn't care about V/M, though that's a really stupid assumption. But I've seen it made by many fans. It's also easy to consider that perhaps she was letting things continue on as is, meaning - letting V/M continue building/editing as they'd always done - because that's the agreed upon method they've always used. When they decided it didn't seem to be working anymore, V/M went to her and said "let's try something different," she was receptive to it, and they moved forward together. Fans are like "WELL, SHE SHOULD HAVE SEEN IT TO BEGIN WITH AND MADE THEM CHANGE THEIR PROCESS." No. She works for them. If they'd agreed upon a process, it would have remained in place until the skaters themselves decided it wasn't working anymore.
I'll never understand why fans give coaches all of the agency and act like the skaters have none. It's the skaters who have the most agency in that relationship.
"People here do the same thing with Tessa from the books she reads to the kind of music she likes to an analysis of why her voice cracks. And I'm here as a fan of VM, not Marina, so that's far more irritating."
DeleteI'm not sure what the point of this comment is. Are you saying it's stupid when anyone does that, or are you saying "I think it's ridiculous when people pick at every word out of Tessa's mouth, but when they do it about Marina, I don't think it's ridiculous?" If it's the latter, that's insanely hypocritical and kills your argument.
Nobody is saying that Marina should be out dissing DW. She's their coach. She can't do that. People are saying VM should have left Marina, so they could have a coach who could do that, and politic better for them in general. Get a coach who can point out the smoke and mirrors in DW's routines, have DW be the team that you can attack for losing their technical coach, Igor, and not doing any new elements.
DeleteMarina seriously is not this brilliant choreographer. It was apparent to everyone that ND was a POTO ripoff and Shez was an S&D ripoff. It definitely helped DW having Marina give VM a few recycled moves in their FD this year, a few running steps, and more open holds to deflect that type of criticism right back to VM. DW couldn't be called out since they were both guilty of it.
"I'm not sure what the point of this comment is. Are you saying it's stupid when anyone does that, or are you saying "I think it's ridiculous when people pick at every word out of Tessa's mouth, but when they do it about Marina, I don't think it's ridiculous?" If it's the latter, that's insanely hypocritical and kills your argument."
I'm saying that IMO, that statement that everyone is just looking for things to get mad with Marina about is funny considering some of what goes on here. I see those comments about Tessa as seriously reaching when she isn't even talking sham or she's this lonely wallflower (yes I know some will say everything they say is a lie, the sham is the thing, etc but I think it veers too far to say she's lying just by being appreciative to the Russian fans, for example). People are reacting to Marina's on-topic comments about skating and DW. They're not looking for stuff to get pissed about. It's being presented to them on a platter. Obviously, we will disagree on this. But I don't see people getting upset with Marina for talking about her dog or saying the sky is blue. It's all about stuff that is relevant to VM losing their Olympic gold medal. To me, that's not the same.
@3:21: What recycled moves did Marina give V/M in their FD? That FD was brilliant and every element was unique to that FD and that FD only. I usually don't pay much attention to the step sequences, but this year's sequences were standouts in their own rights. The circular step sequence was done counter-clockwise, something I've never seen attempted by another team. The diagonal was brilliant in the speed and edge work that were on display; they were FLYING at the end of it, propelled by their own knee action.
DeleteYes, there was open holds in their transitions, but no more than what we've seen in past FDs of theirs. And if you're referring to the running steps in their sequences, look again: they were changing position in both, not using them to gain speed (that's D/W MO).
I disagree with most on here, but I think Marina is a brilliant choreographer, because look at the brilliant programs she came up with for V/M; each one was more challenging than the next. She knew they had superior skills, and she gave them new, challenging material to showcase it.
She also knew that D/W were inferior skaters, hence why she had to recycle the same FD from 2009 to work around their many deficiencies. That D/W never worked beyond their comfort level and had to consciously work on hiding their deficiencies rather than addressing them says much more about them as athletes than Marina as a choreographer. Even Moa Asada re-worked her jumping technique in the last quad, Patrick Chan added the quad to his jumping reportoire, even Piper-freaking-Gillies improved her skating in less than a season.
I'm not saying that their running steps were used to gain speed or in any way as ridiculous as DW's, but that the appearance of them at all caused a lot of people to go "see? they do it too."
DeleteThe curve lift was recycled from non-VM dancers, and many of the positions or transitions through the lifts were recycled from Mahler (the "Tessa is an angel, beckoning to the sky" stuff). The backflip entry to one of their rotationals was from Carmen, but later changed. There was one that looks similar to a UoC lift, but maybe wasn't the exact same. It was enough for the uneducated fan and media to call it a rehash of all their old FDs. Or even educated types like Navka and Monko, who clearly wanted to root for VM and weren't pushing an agenda like Platov.
Yeah, DW being able to get away with that hustle is insane. It pissed me off reading that Tessa "has a mental block with twizzles." Aren't Charlie and Meryl the ones with the mental block, seeing as though they never tried any others!? Let's see Meryl do that SD twizzle that Tessa messed up, lol. I also remember that nutcase Cyn going on a loooong rant about IK getting positive GOE for "wild" (but clean) twizzles. Again, at least they freaking try 3! So they get a little wild. Charlie does that on their freaking six-year old double twizzles! They got 180 degrees out of sync at GPF, how's for "wild."
"Get a coach who can point out the smoke and mirrors in DW's routines, have DW be the team that you can attack for losing their technical coach, Igor, and not doing any new elements."
DeletePlease name a currently competing coach who has done this. That is, called out D/W for skating smoke and mirrors choreography, being the recipients of unfair scoring, and who are being politicked by their federation and its mouthpieces to the top. Since you seem to think they're as easy to find as food at a grocery store. Please, enlighten us.
You lack context and a clear understanding of who controls what in the sport of figure skating. You're sniping at the arms and legs of the puppet instead of the person above it holding the strings and walking it around. You're free to think Marina's choreography isn't brilliant (though I think you're completely wrong about that). But if you think the "solutions" you've come up with would make a hill of beans difference to the outcome of V/M's Olympic season, you're living in a dream world.
The curve lift was similar to other non-VM dancers, but they took it to another level: Scott was on impossible lean, and he rotated out it...very difficult as it is when one is one such a deep lean, never mind supporting another fully extended person infront of him. The backflip entry was at Finlandia and they ditched because they didn't get the levels. The first rotational had the same entry as the U of C lift, but that's about the only similarity. The second rotational, other than Tessa having her arms up aloft, was very different from the Mahler lift, from the entry, position change and exit. I'm not too concerned that they re-purposed parts of old lifts, considering those lifts were technically difficult and brilliant to begin with. And really, all the Mahler lifts re-purposed aspects of Pink Floyd lifts; the only truly original lift in Mahler was the final rotational.
DeleteD/W's lifts this year were cheap rip-offs of either V/M lifts or their own, and considering all their lifts are shit begin with, that's not a good thing to be copying them. Their curve lift was an awful rip-off of V/M's Latin lift. Their handstand lift was an insult to V/M's Carmen lift; hell, even P/B had a good handstand lift this year. Their rotational was WTF, and their chore lift was a cheap rip-off of a similar lift that C/L did this year and last.
@3:21 PM, go read OC's latest post. THAT is a much better rundown of what I've been trying to get at. You're sniping at the wrong stuff and the wrong people if you aren't looking directly at the top, which is clouded in its own type of secrecy and playing its own political games both directly and indirectly connected to the skaters. You want to know where the funny business is happening? LOOK AT THE FEDERATIONS AND ABOVE, stop assuming that a coaching change would have benefited V/M. Their coaching arrangement has never been the problem. It has always been a positive for them and helped them achieve what they have. When a system turns on you, it's not because a coach makes it happen. It's because something is occurring higher up, and searching around for a coach to point out unfair results on the ice does NOTHING to stop those results from occurring, because they are coming from the top and the media is complicit in affirming their "legitimacy."
DeleteIn the sport of ice dance, coaches will benefit when their skaters are successful, and they will also get fucked up the ass along with their skaters when they fall out of favor. V/M fell out of favor somewhat, D/W were elevated to the top. Zoueva wins regardless of which team comes out with gold, which is what pisses off fans and makes them want to attack her as the problem. She's not the problem. LOOK ABOVE HER. FAR ABOVE HER.
"Please name a currently competing coach who has done this. That is, called out D/W for skating smoke and mirrors choreography, being the recipients of unfair scoring, and who are being politicked by their federation and its mouthpieces to the top."
DeleteIngo Steuer and Frank Carroll have done it, outside of dance. No other ice dancers are directly competing against DW, so no other coaches have gone after them.
As for this and the post from 4:36 (if not from the same person):
"You're sniping at the arms and legs of the puppet instead of the person above it holding the strings and walking it around. "
I NEVER said Marina was the only problem. I've never seen anyone else say that either. I guess in order to comment on Marina, I need to list the American-controlled ISU technical committee, Rettstatt, icenetwork, and 100 other non-Marina things in order to get to have an opinion.
I've been talking about Marina, because Marina is the freaking topic at hand. When I read OC's post about Dore and ISU politics, I commented on that, because that was the topic.
A more politically supportive coach would be but ONE TOOL from which VM could have potentially benefited. A strong political coach can mitigate lack of support from a federation; a strong federation can mitigate lack of political support from a coach. VM had neither, and had awful PR (their own fault). A coach can have political connections independent of the federation. A coach can coach skaters from smaller countries and get to know their judges and technical specialists by inviting them to review and comment on their skaters' programs, using that as an opportunity to sell the judges on what the skaters are doing technically, for example.
The federation is the federation. No skater can change the federation's actions. They would have to literally change federations by switching countries, a difficult thing to do. A skater CAN change coaches, rather easily.
In any sport, if the best team in the world lost every major competition for two years, there would definitely be a push to change their coaching situation.
I can list dozens of things that could've gone down differently (some within VM's control, some not). Changing coaches was definitely one of them. But all of those things didn't happen, so we'll never know if any or all would've changed anything.
If it was just the ISU is against them and that's that, they should have just been told and then they could've retired.
All of the other ice dance teams are directly competing against D/W. Just because they aren't considered the favorites to win doesn't mean they aren't directly competing against them or wouldn't have a stake in calling out D/W's smoke and mirrors choreography if doing so would make a damn difference. If D/W are being politicked to the top unfairly (which they were), and the system is being hijacked in order for them to do so (which it was), in your scenario in which the focus is on the coach (since that's the topic at hand and God forbid it be discussed in greater context), it would make TOTAL SENSE FOR EVERYONE to call it out, would it not? Not just V/M, but every single team on the senior competitive circuit.
DeleteThat didn't happen.
Ingo Steuer mentioned that V/T's music was not the style of his own team, he didn't like that music, and S/S were not going in that direction. Then he said something about not wanting the two best pairs in the world to skate to the same music. This was taken by some as an indication that Steuer was "throwing shade" and "politicking" against V/T, which was a HUGE STRETCH to begin with (seriously, you've got to really want to see it), and in the end didn't make one fucking difference in the Olympic outcome. Unless you've got some other example of Steuer "throwing shade" at other teams, that one doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Frank Carroll recently criticized Julia Lipnitskaya's PCS scores, claiming she's an excellent skater but felt she wasn't showing mature enough skating to receive 10s in those marks. Lipnitskaya didn't even get 10s, but that's what Carroll said. He wasn't questioning the entire system or claiming her win was an absolute fraud because she can't skate. He was saying he felt one set of her marks were too high. And again, did it matter in the end? No it did not. The Russians went on to win the team event and Gracie Gold did not medal in the individual competition.
So, let me rephrase then. Is there a currently competing coach out there who has "dissed other skaters" or their scores and had it pay off for their own skaters? Not that I can see. Carroll gets rather blustery at times, but he's been successful when the feds get behind his skaters and help politick them to victory, like Lysacek (to some extent) in Vancouver. Carroll could have bitched and moaned about Plushenko for years. If the USFSA hadn't been driving the anti-Plushenko, pro-Lysacek train, it wouldn't have made a damn difference.
"In any sport, if the best team in the world lost every major competition for two years, there would definitely be a push to change their coaching situation."
Do you watch NFL football? If so, I'll give you an example from that sport that disproves your argument, or at least disproves your argument that a coaching change would have likely fixed V/M's situation or put them in a better position to compete. The Dallas Cowboys. All the talent and money in the world. Their owner also likes to play GM and dictate how the team is run. He's brought in a number of different coaches over the years, all of whom have been hamstrung by him in the end, failed because of it, and were run out of town (by him). It works the same way in figure skating. If your fed is not behind you or doesn't have the political power to make moves at the top, it doesn't matter who your coach is, what they say, or who else they coach. Period.
"If it was just the ISU is against them and that's that, they should have just been told and then they could've retired."
DeleteWhat do you mean, *just* the ISU against them? The ISU is IT. It is EVERYTHING. It doesn't exist independently of the federations, coaches, or skaters.
"In any sport, if the best team in the world lost every major competition for two years, there would definitely be a push to change their coaching situation."
DeleteThis is not a sport, though. That's what you keep not seeing. You seem to believe water flows upstream here, that the different training centers and coaches make their case to the ISU and the judges and the one who does the best wins. That Marina should have packaged or politicked VM better. NO.
This was top DOWN, not training center UP.
If a football team was clearly outscoring its chief competitor at every major championship, but the referees disallowed all of the touchdowns and ignored clear violations/out of bounds/fumbles of the other team, so that the other team was handed the win despite being outplayed by the team that "lost", would you say change the coach - or would you say the whole sport is corrupt?
Of course that would never happen because fans can SEE what's going on on the field and most fans can't see what's going on on the ice. The media can see what's going on the field - they don't have any idea what's taking place on the ice.
The problem was not their coaching situation. Their coaching situation didn't matter, because the problem wasn't their skating, or their package, or their politics. They continued to improve in this past quad. They were close to twice as good as they were in Vancouver and DW stagnated and they still lost. WHO made them twice as good? Marina.
The bullshit in the reality show was bullshit, down to Johnny Johns saying level calls were his fault. NO. That's taking the scores on face value; that's pretending the scores had anything to do with how VM skated or what program they were using. It did not. Arctic Edge did its job. VM did their job. The ISU didn't.
It was Maurizio in the Finlandia K&C who said they didn't do their jobs.
DeleteWhoever said it, it was bullshit, because whatever levels VM lost or achieved had nothing to do with how they skated on the day. That quote from Maurizio was Maurizio and VM pretending this was actually a sport and that the protocols said something about how VM actually performed, when no such thing was going on. There was nothing Arctic Edge was doing wrong, reality show bullshit or no reality show bullshit. There was nothing VM could have fixed on or off the ice. The scores, the levels, the feedback - nothing to do with what VM did on the ice. It was all a game.
DeleteMy own belief is the USFSA paid as much attention to the programs Marina gave DW as Marina did. Marina didn't have the freedom with DW that she had with VM. There was a specific package that the USFSA agreed helped sell DW and it was Marina's job to re-work that package every single year with new music and adjusted timing, but the same package. Not every choreographer could do it, but she's incredibly musical and has a fantastic sense of momentum, anticipation, tension release, and propulsion, and she could arrange the same old same old to different music so that what happened on the ice related to the music in a very specific - this move happens on that beat or before that beat way - and that was it. It was completely formula. Marina's job was to dress up the same formula in different-seeming ways. The USFSA very obviously was the entity that decided the winning package - not Marina.
And when I say "Helped sell" DW, I mean this: it was agreed that DW were going to win gold in Vancouver. All that was required was a package that "sold" that win to a press that didn't know shit about skating and a public that didn't know shit about skating. There's a lot wrong with what DW do on the ice and when they stray outside their formula that becomes obvious even to people who don't know skating technique. They had to stay inside a very rigid formula while repackaging it every season. The USFSA, IMO, were the ones who decided what the formula was (and that formula was Samson & Delilah for the fd, and running, skipping, and wide stepping for the short). It was Marina's task to make it look refreshed each season. The USFSA didn't want them to work outside that formula because DW couldn't sell it outside the formula.
DeleteMaurizio's comment gets thrown around a lot as evidence of something, but what no one ever additionally notes is that he says it before the scores come up, when they're simply discussing the program's performance itself -- at 6:29: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9oxkHhYJ_U
Delete4 years ago. And now he's " defeated " - that's nothing a girl like Cassandra can use to brag in front of her girlfriends.
ReplyDeleteIt's aWaltzFlower again... I'm starting a PCS project, for those interested. Videos of a team's skate with PCS criteria inserted every 30 seconds as a reference. I thought it'd be interesting to see how the teams should be marked on their own rather than against each other.
ReplyDelete2014 Olympic Free Dance - Skating Skills
D/W
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/ix0ub7spe2k3grq/Davis_White_Olympic_FD_Skating_Skills.mp4
V/M
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/25bs7cfeec85h63/Virtue_Moir_Olympic_FD_Skating_Skills.mp4
I also have something fun, coming hopefully before too much longer :D
I'm downloading these now. My concern is that if I upload them on the blog (this concern just crossed my mind) and they're protected, it could run afoul of google TOS, considering the videos are being removed from youtube. I'm going to look at them and maybe gif and screen cap.
DeleteOT: Does anyone know who Jodi Jehnsen or whatever her name is is? Does she work for ice-network/usfsa/DW or something?
ReplyDeleteNo, she is not employed by USFS or icenetwork. She is simply a skating fan who posted a mild comment on icenetwork's page disagreeing with a major VM fan, the famed "Pani" of FSU. Just because a VM fan posts negative opinions about DW, and someone responds, it does not automatically follow they get a paycheck from USFS. Have you gone so mad as to not realize that?
Deletewhat article is this?
Deleteexcept like she replies to every v/m fan who posts comments it wasnt just pani and it wasn't just one comment on icenetwork. its everywhere. everytime someone says something negative about d/w, she shows up. honestly, i thought she was one of their lackeys.
DeleteLet's be reasonable here. There are several VM fans, including Pani, who show up in every possible thread on every message board and article comment section whenever anyone supports DW. Jodi's comments are mild in comparison to some of the VM fan comments. I am a VM fan, but I cannot indiscriminately condemn DW fans, or ignore the aggressive posts from Pani and her ilk.
ReplyDelete