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| This is their mess-up at this key point. People say the mistake was hers but when I look at him he doesn't look on point either. |
And the nuances:
Look at her. Look at him. Why is she doing the Duschenays' jungle program all of a sudden and she didn't let him know?
This is the screen cap as they're about to miss the key point hand hold. I have no idea what the fuck with either of them, especially his left heel.
Look at his "carriage". What the hell is that?
This is just a screen cap of what Level 3 Finnstep is supposed to look like coming out of a Level 3 keypoint, bitches.
At least they skate close together, right? Except for that beach ball they keep at all times between their respective pelvises.
Thank God CoP has made ice dance judging legit. It's the epitome of a forest-for-the-trees scoring system. It's actually possible to give high scores to skaters who don't skate their programs.
68.42. That's what this got. For what?
I just tried to leave a comment, but it's not appearing. If it happens to be in a hold somewhere with a real name attached to it, please delete it OC.
ReplyDeleteI guess BS got their score for ticking all the boxes.
It's something to see all of the outrage over BS being overscored today coming from some quarters given that these people swear that no such thing is happening with DW's scores. If it's American DW over Canadian VM, it's all on the up-and-up because DW are American. If it's a Russian team over a North American team, then it's howling at the top of their lungs about politics and corruption.
Exactly 5:01, they "ticked all the boxes". Ice dance has gotten to where you don't need to skate to win.
DeleteAnd BS is another team that rocks the hell out of their blades when they do any kind of steps but cross overs. What does it matter? It's only ice dance! You don't have to skate well to win at ice dance.
DeleteIn the era of D/W, "ticking the boxes" means not falling or making visible mistakes and garnering a standing O. Details such as deep edges, close dance hold, good mechanics in and out of lifts...meh, who cares? The judges obviously don't seem to care.
DeleteIt's disgusting. It's like VM printed off 5 extra pages of boxes to tick, but no one cares.
DeleteI guess it's more like this though: DW are giving half a sheet of boxes to tick. Meeting the standards to get the boxes ticked is ridiculously easy for them. Most teams start off with having a full sheet they have to work through, some things more difficult, some things less. VM are given at first a full sheet with ridiculous standards to get each box checked. Then, because they're them, they print out their 5 extra sheets. THEN, that's not enough, so the judges add another 5 pages.
And "giving 110%!" It's right there in CoP, correct? Of course no criteria are given for it, much like "difficult" is left vague in lifts.
DeleteThat Aussie Willy poster is a fucking cop-out. When asked specific questions about why V/M didn't "tick the boxes" last year, this was their response:
Delete"I will be perfectly honest, I know you would love an indepth explanation about all this stuff, but I really don't have time. I will have to leave you in confusion."
So the have time to be checking the forum regularly, but squirm when they are put on the spot. Yup, that sums up the fucked-up state of ice dance judging.
His butt sticking out is distracting, and not in a good way.
ReplyDeleteI can't imagine what Krylova must be thinking at this point..WP were not perfect - but this had to be disheartening. There is clearly a russian push for IK and BS but holycow is the icedance judging losing credibility. From the Shibs to PB and now WP - it just seems so apparent that the results have been predetermined. What a shame...
ReplyDeleteI only wish Tessa & Scott would retire before the olympics. They are going to be embarrassed because of politics. Give the ISU and Skate Canada a blow. The fix is obvioulsy in...
ReplyDeleteIt seems impossible they'll ever get the required number of boxes ticked.
DeleteWell it's interesting that Geoffrey Tyler - (who is a very close friend of Kurt Browning) and who choreographed WPs SD basically tweeted to PJ Kwong asking whether she thinks that WP got robbed today? Well folks VM have been getting robbed for two years - so it's interesting to see a little uproar when it involves another team at one event...
DeleteEventually, the "sport" of ice dance is going to screw itself right out of the Olympic Games. Maybe that's the best thing that could ever happen to it.
ReplyDeleteIronically - Russia still has a lovefest with ballet and gymnastics yet in Sochi, the locals will be served a whole lot of ugly in ice dance....
DeleteEh, the Russians are already being served ugly nowadays (looking at you, Mariinsky Ballet), with deserving ballerinas being overlooked in terms of roles and promotions. Instead, acrobatic dancers who can whack their feet next to their ears without regard for music nuance, sensitivity or context rule the day (sound familiar?). Money and connections talk quite effectively.
DeleteThe problem is that in ice dance ISU has adopted the FSU method of scoring - forget the skating. Was the performance overt? Was it in your face? Did the skaters go for it? Do they do a whole bunch of things, if not with the edges of their blades, then their toe picks, heels, boots - did they keep something moving most of the time?
DeleteI was reading the opinions of that low level judge over at fsu - this is how judges are being trained? "Tick the boxes"? "Tight versus loose"? How are these things quantified? What is the relationship to skating? What standard is being applied? Are they judging the fucking package or are they judging the content? Are they looking at the WHAT of the content or just how much and never mind what the content consists of?
It used to be that ice dance was stricter about the actual skating than the other disciplines. That's flipped. Ice dance is the least strict about the skating - it's far far less strict than PAIRS. Pairs used to medal Shen & Zhao back in the day when they both had trouble even bending their knees, when a Stanley Cup championship game had quieter blades, when he used to kick up more ice than a snow blower on throws, and when one horizontal element for the lady - the death spiral - was done practically vertically and at glacial "speed". And they couldn't spin.
They didn't win but they got on that podium because they steamrolled across that ice and the tricks were huge. It wasn't even their fault they skated like that - as soon as they had the resources and the opportunity to refine their skating they transformed and became one of the greats.
Now Duhamel Radford get side eye when they're rough, even if they hit most of their tricks. Their TES goes down.
In ice dance? Do whatever the fuck you want. Skate while chopping divots in the ice. DON'T skate in and out of your elements. Kill time posing and running apart and then together again. Hold hands and skip. Charlie, keep that arm sweeping the air towards the crowd at all times.
Just be sure to tip your skate over at the right angle coming out of a key point - or close enough, lean to "show" an edge even if you're not getting long glide out of it, and use the WWW for lift tips - both the elegance of it and the incredibly sophisticated technique. Ice dance judging is a mess.
oc
There seems to be a disconnect between what's written in the rules and what's encouraged as the present interpretation of the rules. I can't really blame that novice judge. These judges-in-training are being instructed by the powers-that-be that this is the 'correct' way to score ice dance. There's no room for subtlety in this system--what we have is DW with metaphorical clubs to whack the judges with their 'superior "skating"'.
DeleteBut how subtle do you have to be to notice that THIS team isn't skating and THAT team is skating, to notice that THIS team uses filler and that team uses actual linking moves on the edges of their blades, and that THIS team is clutching each other, pasted together, and the male is pinning the woman's limbs into place, and the other team is using their edges in and out and balance points and control of their bodies during? It only takes eyeballs. Even if you become a judge, you don't check your brain at the door, do you? And you don't forget that the sport you're judging is figure skating/ice dance.
DeleteAnd how do you not notice what a mess BS are? I see that they skate BIG when their actual blades are engaged, but they're miles apart, and there really is this bizarre lack of control - the feet are disconnected from the body. One or the other is continually lurching forward with the upper body. What's with whacking the heels of their skates into the ice at random points? They kick up tons of snow and they are constantly, constantly rocking and wobbling on their blades. How does a judge not notice that?
DeleteHa, they notice it, all right. They're just looking the other way.
DeleteIt's amazing how in pairs and singles, other skaters and other coaches can immediately identify what about the SKATING of the winners justifies their win. Go ahead and read what MTM's coach says about Volosozhar & Trankov. It's not "they give 110!" It's not "They tick all the boxes!" It's not "gee, they're so tight with their music" (which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read and means an event is won in music selection, since obviously there is plenty of music where a skater doesn't want to be "tight"). It's - well motherfucker they skate like nobody else - they're faster, deeper, amazing blade run, elements are gigantic, twice as strong as everyone else's - do you need more specifics, because I could go on all day."
DeletePlushenko versus Lysacek was controversial (kind of pretend controversial, IMO) in 2010 but the arguments were totally specific. Nobody ran and hid. Nobody said they didn't have the time to talk about it (that's being epidemic when it's DW v. VM - the DW side just is too busy living to get specific).
Nobody pretended Plushenko's transitions or other triples were the awesome. The people in his corner basically thought he did the fucking quad and that's enough. The people in Lysacek's corner said all Plushenko did was the quad - his triples weren't secure and he had shit for in betweens and Lysacek's tripe A and other triples and all his content, in the aggregate, beat Plushenko's quad and otherwise kind of sketch performance (yes, I think the result was proper).
There was no "The program was amazing!" "I enjoyed Lysacek so much more!" "Plushenko felt blah!"
Nope - right into the skating.
Only in ice dance is it poor form to actually discuss the skating.
the Russian D/W are Ilinykh/Katsalapov, not Bobrova/Soloviev. They (B/S, I mean) were never overscored, look at what happend at Gpf last year, European Champs last year (their fantastic long program was given lower score than the wtf one of I/K, well, in my opinion, the new fd of IK is even more wtf -_-) or CoC this year. Their LP personal best is only 99.83, nowhere near V/M, I/K, D/W, W/P... that short dance only got 68.42, not even higher than Weaver/Poje. And certainly, they never blab about them being talented (or being hard-working - like certain someones) or whatever. They know their weakness, and not blaming anyone else for that. Just give them a break, you guys, they don't stand any chance snatch the golds from Virtue/Moir (or even the silvers from Davis/White neither) -_-
ReplyDeleteNot sure if serious, but I'll play along. I'm not sure what you mean by B/S's short dance not scoring higher than W/P's. It certainly scored higher at this event.
DeleteI agree that I/K are the recipients of clear score inflation (especially at TEB), but this key point ridiculousness with B/S is rather blatant and can't be ignored either. Whether B/S stand any kind of chance against V/M or D/W is secondary to the overall political egregiousness on display in ice dance as a whole.
I don't have anything against B/S - I actually like them better than I/K even though their skating posture drives me insane and should drive anybody insane. Look at the crouching! Their feet are a mess in all of the in betweens. A mess. What he's doing has nothing to do with what she's doing. Their feet are barely in synch, let alone unison. And the fact that each keeps a force field repelling the other's body in dance hold isn't something that should be rewarded. Not to mention often their bodies seem to have no clue what their feet are doing, and vice versa.
DeleteI have it against the judging. I am appalled that a team like W&P who actually evolve their skating instead of just re-packaging their skating, get put seven points behind what's up there. Kaitlyn Weaver's earnestness sometimes makes me rme, and that doubles when I think of "Je Suis Malade", but when she says she and Poje want to be authentic, they merit respect because they skate the talk. Not just authentic in dance style - authentic in their skating. I'm not giving them try hard points - they are authentically better than seven points behind that up there. They were tight at this competition, but their blades were a whole lot cleaner and their quality and control in their skating was miles above BS.
It's not about a particular team. It's about what's going on with ice dance. It's blatant corruption, possibly coupled with absolutely stunning forest-for-the-trees thinking. "Tick all the boxes" are the trees. Never mind that the boxes aren't about the skating.
It's also fairly obvious this season that the tech callers are strict with some skaters at key points, and give others a bye. So we've got a hustle on levels, and we have a hustle on GOE.
i/k are much better dancers than b/s tho. although elena wishes she can have tessa's grace and posture ;)
DeleteOf course at this event, B/S scored higher, but I mean, W/P's personal best is 70.35, much higher than B/S, you talk about politic? B/S don't even bother advertise themselves, search the internet, and you receive nothing. They don't try to marketing themselves, even their coach says " the couples to look up to are Virtue/Moir and Weaver/Poje -_- and talking about politic, yes, no one can surpass D/W, absolutely no one. -_- and in my opinion, yes, B/S deserve bronzes at Sochi.
ReplyDelete"...and in my opinion, yes, B/S deserve bronzes at Sochi."
DeleteDeserves? Here's the problem with that statement. The Olympics in Sochi is three months away, and the team that wins bronze there should rightfully earn it on the ice with their skating during that competition.
If they win bronze, are B/S going to earn that medal with their skating, or because of political maneuvering? Look at the caps above. Who cares if B/S aren't advertising themselves like D/W? Politics is politics whether the recipients of inflated scoring are D/W or anybody else.
Hmmm - waiting to see in icedance who takes the last GP spot for the GP final after today's results...I don't know how exactly it's decided but I would think that it must be close between IK and CL...
DeleteOkay answering my own question - just posted CL got in for the 6th spot (and barely)...guess it helped that they were at Skate America and NHK were the judging was less lenient...anyways next stop Grand Prix Final..Zoueva - 2 teams, Shpilband - 2 teams, Krylova - 1 and Zhulin - 1...
DeleteSo Carol Lane was commentating for CBC today, so I guess she will be calling the ice dance in Sochi.
ReplyDeleteAnd she disclosed at the top of the broadcast that she coaches Gilles/Poirer. Hint, hint, Tanith.
Tanith and Charlie are just good friends. His real soul to soul connection is with Meryl.
DeleteLOL - well it wouldn't surprise me if PJ Kwong had strongly suggested to Ms. Lane to disclose her coaching G/P...even though she may say otherwise I believe that Ms. Kwong is aware of this board and does read some other fans tweets...besides this board and a handful of tweets - nobody flinched about Carol Lane commentating - on FSU they may have not agreed with her style compared to Tracey Wilson but there was no outcry of conflict of interest...and what since 2010 - has Tanith ever mentioned her conflict of interest - don't think so...so I appreciate Carol Lane doing that..
DeleteI wish I could find the video of the competition last year where the other commentator prompted Tanith to disclose her relationship with Charlie and she said that they were just good friends.
DeleteAnon at 12:28 pm - well another platonic relationship I guess, LOL..however I do have to say that Tanith Belbin is supporting her BF 100% this year since the tweets are almost none-existent and let's face it - she could have done Battle of the Blades and made some money but decided against it...
DeleteSupporting her boyfriend 100%? She practically fellates him from the comment booth.
DeleteNo we know that Tanith is ridiculous with her commentating. And to be honest - if she needed to whack Scott Moir in the knee for DW to win Olympic gold - there would be no hesitation. My point is that she has agreed to take a backseat in the public eye and social media.
DeleteAs far as the international scene goes, Tanith and Ben spent most of their career picking up the pieces left over when superior teams underperformed.
DeleteI say "superior" with a bit of a wince because I don't believe the B&A era was ice dance's most shining.
In 2009 Tanith told the press conference that it was important to have "your judge" on the panel at a competition, and this was simply how the sport functioned.
The way she has conducted herself this season is enough evidence by itself that ice dance is corrupt and medals are won via propaganda. She believes it or she wouldn't be on the street corner working it for Davis White. She's trying to make sure past is precedent and they continue to win over what she knows is a superior team.
She's like Scott Hamilton - she doesn't care as long as she thinks they're deserving and she has a personal stake.
During a fallow period in my figure skating fandom, I watched the tail end of the US Championships won by Czizny (2009 I believe). Scott Hamilton was thrilled to pieces. I THINK it started getting a little dicey at the end of her program and my memory is he said something like "I don't care!".
It's a beauty contest to these people.
Hamilton was a very strong skater himself, but in his autobiography he has no problem sharing his belief that he won his 1984 Olympic gold as sort of a prize for the years he'd given to the sport. That's how he rationalized his win despite underperforming in the long program.
No, he won legitimately, on the ice, per the math at the time. He was strong in figures (and, I presume, strong "enough" in the short) to prevail despite losing the free. That's why. They had three segments back then. That's how he won despite not winning the free. It wasn't a good fellowship award.
"It's a beauty contest to these people." I kind of laughed, because Ben was the stronger skater in that team. He was dragging Tanith's ass around the ice, and the consensus in the ice dance world at the time amounted to 'she's lucky that she's pretty'. She couldn't have been easy post-Torino when there were 2 teams in Canton nipping at her heels (nevermind that she has since become involved with White or that Ben Agosto could outskate DW by himself). How especially galling to be surpassed by Tessa who had it all -- beauty, undisputed skill, outstanding partner, and remained Canadian to boot.
Delete"In 2009 Tanith told the press conference that it was important to have "your judge" on the panel at a competition, and this was simply how the sport functioned."
DeleteB/A were held up and were given the benefit of the doubt (reputation) often enough. But they blew those chances. They could have been more successful if they were more consistent. So boo-hoo, Tanith. You had enough opportunities.
Well, Tanith is a HUGE Shae Lynn Bourne fan, and was vocal about it long before Tessa suddenly recently decided to forget the whole "Patch and Marie France" thing she and Scott have been working since 2006 and talked up Shae Lynn as her idol. Tanith identified with Shae Lynn because Shae Lynn was another dicey glamor girl dragged around the ice by her much more talented partner.
DeleteI don't think Tanith is under many illusions/delusions about her abilities. She's just recalibrated her hierarchy of values. She's lining up with Scott Hamilton. Skating skill is way down the list of attributes that make a team deserving of a gold medal. Of course she feels that way, because her skating skills don't cut the mustard. Over and above skating skills in the gold medal meritocracy are:
1. Is it a great story?
2. Do I know them personally and like them?
3. Are they like me? Blonde and smiley? (she's touted both W&P (she loves the long lines and of course, Kaitlyn's blonde) and Gilles/Poirier (Piper is blonde and smiley).
4. Do they work hard (never mind the part about everybody works hard - do they work hard?
5. Would the win be AMAZING?
That's it. She has no problem with it.