I'm assembling elements for the new banner, which is basically lying faces and maybe some text. That's the idea at the moment.
It is excruciating going through old interviews with the old lies. The second hand embarrassment is mortifying. This one in particular was torture:
Jian Ghameshi is more on the ball than I remembered. Once you adjust to his cheesy d.j. tones, he's no fool. He's not playing gotcha, but when he pins them down on stuff, it's like facial expression jackpot for the blog's banner material.
Further down, I'm going to post some of Scott's facial expressions after Ghameshi asked Scott if he were "angry" at Tessa during the first run of compartment syndrome, because there's a comment or two I want to make about that moment.
And before then, here are some things culled from this interview that I think are in the spirit of recent comments section discussion about Tessa Virtue:
Ghameshi:
This is part of the Tessa Virtue mind block. You put aside your pain, you put aside the crowd – I mean – it’s quite fantastic what you seem to be able to do with your mind.
Tessa:
Figure skating is a tough sport. If someone is expecting you to skate like you’re injured, judges can look for that and mark you differently. Unfortunately that’s just the case. It was a strategic decision for us to say that we are healthy. . . It was tough, I felt a little bit guilty, but part of that was also convincing ourselves. The more we said it, that I was healthy and feeling great, the more we truly believed it, and we needed to believe it to win.
Yikes. Does that mean the more you say you and Scott aren't together, the more he performs with Cassandra, the more you deny your marriage and, with everything you do, deny your child, the more you believe it? That would be disturbing. Or maybe it's the more you do something, the more you're convinced it's okay? That makes sense. It can't be wrong if you keep doing it. Because if it were wrong, you'd stop! So the way to be right is to keep doing it.
I definitely get the idea it works like that with them. The photo with Scott on Cassie's ass isn't wrong; they published it and republished it, The more you do it, the less wrong it is. That's convincing.
Tessa:
It really made me get into this place where nothing was gonna stop me. And it was this zone, this mental state where I was so focused on the task at hand and I wasn’t allowing anything to distract me.
Yeah, we all kind of figure, Tessa.
Tessa:
I don’t know that it was necessarily that I was so strong. I just didn’t allow my thought process to ever go there.
Yep. Mind over matter. If your thought process never goes to damage to your kid, your kid won't be damaged. If it never goes to what you're doing might be really wrong as far as manipulating and hoaxing the public, you're not doing real wrong. Never second guess. That's the route to psychological health.
Tessa:
Looking back now and reflecting on it, I really convinced myself, almost, that I wasn’t in pain, and I tried to block that out.
Again - unsettling if this convincing yourself stuff applies to other things.
And for those who think the sham is necessary to protect their privacy, they go on to assure Ghameshi it's up to them when they're recognized.
Tessa:
We can pick our spots.
It’s not that often that we’re really recognized on the street so we can really fly under the radar.
Ghameshi:
Really? REALLY.?
Tessa:
Really!
Tessa:
I don’t think we’ve changed so much regarding our social lives but from a business perspective we’ve learned so much. As soon as we won the Olympics, it was like a flip of the switch, that changed and we were thrown into all these business situations and we’ve really enjoyed the process with that. Just negotiations with companies and you know, speaking engagements, appearances and always having to be on publicly.
(By her animation, word stress and tone of voice, Tessa really really likes the business stuff)
Tessa:
We understand that when we’re in an arena I think it’s pretty – it’s open for the public – you know, our personas, and I think that comes with the territory – we’re happy and we take that role really seriously.
Me: Someone pointed out a write-up on the documentary about Lance Armstrong, and the lessons from the Armstrong scandal are applicable to both the DW scoring situation and the Virtue Moir lies, as far as how a lie works; the mindset that rationalizes lying. With Armstrong, one of the things I found interesting was that his Dr. Feelgood actually resented not getting more credit for Armstrong's success. The mindset there was what is the difference between sleeping in an altitude tent and using whatever drug it was? (Another part of the write-up noted that the Armstrong lie was in plain sight for years and had even been noted by others in public, but there was no follow through.)
Virtue and Moir's rationale is "personas" and "performance". The problem is it's lying. It was so obvious they were and continue to rationalize with "personas", "marketing" and "performance" that I proactively set out to nail the difference between performance/marketing and just lying/fucking with people. I know they're fucking with people, and protecting themselves by calling it performance/persona.
The difference is notification. For example, even with Scott and Tessa's shilling of P&G embedded in what at first glance seem to be regular interviews, we're informed these are plugs. The only difference is they disclose on the back end, so we've listened to the whole thing before we hear "sponsor". But we're notified. If we go away from these plugfests thinking it was a real interview, it's on us, because there was disclosure.
The sham, the reality show, etc., isn't performance/marketing with Virtue and Moir because there's no disclosure.
But here's notification for how this is going to play for those of us still alive when Scott and Tessa's actual status is finally on the public record:
Ghameshi points to how the book says:
“Everybody’s, since then (when they were paired) wanted you to become a couple to exercise their own romantic fantasy.”
Our fault.
He's good. When I first listened I thought he was complicit with them, sitting there with them commiserating about how people want them to be together to fulfill their own fantasies. But he's not. He says that's what they say in the book. He's smooth with it, conversational, rumbling along, but he gets that distinction in there.
What was interesting for me in this cringe-inducing interview was when the interviewer asked Tessa: “When do you think you’re not that good.”
She'd just run on about how she’s very critical, had always admired Scott as a fantastic skater, but had doubts about how good they were together, and that it wasn’t until they went to Waterloo and skated with the bigger teams that she started feeling more convinced, and not even then, and even now she can feel she’s not that good. She describes this as pervasive throughout her career, she's just that much of a perfectionist. She actually warms to the topic.
So the interviewer of course asked her to nail it down – when do you think you’re not good?
HUGE pause.
She couldn’t come up with any examples from the times she’d just described. She actually gave an answer that had nothing to do with being self-critical – it had to do with reality. Post-2008 surgery she couldn’t train and was afraid it showed or that people thought she was no longer as good as Scott.
The disconnect between how she just described her thought process and the example she used to describe it really stands out. She does get very histrionic – saying she thought people were laughing at her and saying Scott’s so much better, etc., but she definitely ties it to her self-consciousness over the difference in training.
Scott:
In 2008 we had Tessa coming back from the biggest injury of our lives and Tessa and Scott don’t even know each other anymore.
I always feel that if you've gotten to the point where you can speak of yourself in the third person, you need to double back to the starting line and re-set.
Let's recall that in this part of the interview they emphasize the complete blackout on all communication - didn't lay eyes on each other, never picked up the phone.
Meantime they were living together in London the whole time, and made at least two public appearances anybody with a youtube account can see (the Skate America interview) or can see with google (the photo of their appearance at the John Labatt Center event). And of course there's Marijane Strong at Canadians letting us know Scott and Tessa worked together daily at her apartment during Tessa's recovery.
Now here's some screen caps of Scott's reaction when Ghameshi asked him if he was angry at Tessa during her original bout with CES:
Here is what I think we all know to be true: If something you're doing makes you look like Scott looks in these screen caps, you shouldn't be doing it.
Those caps look like some epic Biblical struggle where the protogonist wrestles with himself and loses. You know that moment in a movie when the character's expression transitions into the one Scott's sporting in the last cap above and the audience goes, Oh fuck - it's Zuul!*
I suspect the question provoked such discomfort in Scott for the same reason a lot of questions provoke discomfort in Scott - the lie requires him to deny who he is. Considering that he's proud of who he is, that what's transpired with him and Tessa is close to his heart, to deny it in this way is a degradation. One he chooses, but still a degradation.
They're still lying in these two videos but they're not upping the ante, taking the truth and clubbing it to death, throwing it in the trunk, driving to the farm in the dead of night, motoring across the field and unloading it to decay in the manure pile.
How he and Tessa handled her CES, how their relationship thrived during that time, how the best that each believed about the other was validated and then some, is a core part of their real story. Obviously there is no part of their story they won't publicly warp and then prostitute, but it's got to do damage to their core selves down the line. When they decide to do this, it's painful. It's so not necessary to anybody's "persona" or anybody's sham.
________________________
Ghostbusters.
That Q TV interview is painful to watch. I'm surprised you were able to get through the entire thing. Viewing it is like being an observer during a therapy session, except the therapy session is with two people who are lying their faces off.
ReplyDeleteI didn't do it in one go, let me tell you. I wanted to get facial expressions that matched when they were actually lying, not just use a facial expression that seemed to fit if they weren't telling an out and out lie, so I actually had to listen for when they actually lied. It's so freaking uncomfortable to watch it's difficult not to shift around yourself when it's running.
DeleteScott of course is especially uncomfortable to watch because it really is rough watching his facial expressions fight each other. Everything about him is running away - he starts shifting up and down in his chair (not side to side, up and down, like he's getting up and being pushed back down, getting up, pushed backed down), his eyes fly away to the ceiling, he shakes his head, and he literally starts chewing on and almost trying to suck in his own mouth. He's also talking from the back of his throat. Then Lying Scott reels in Runaway Scott and pins him to the chair and makes him do it.
I think I've said before that after Vancouver, Tessa repositioned herself as this drama queen who melts down, who is almost proud of how tough she is on herself, but then sort of spoils it by underscoring just how of a martyr she is. It's so absolutely opposite everything she was prior to their lying campaign after Vancouver that itself raises a flag that big lies are happening here.
I think this interview is part of the launch of that persona. I know she was in pain during the Vancouver prep, but the women was wearing heels at banquets. She was waiting in line outside one of the post-competition events in Vancouver. She wasn't counting the fucking steps to the cafeteria. She was often in pain after the od because that was tough on the legs, and she did a ton of pt, but she wasn't this magic ice dancer who could barely walk when she wasn't skating, and saved all her strength for the skate. How the hell did she walk in the opening ceremonies if she couldn't walk to the fucking cafeteria? And the closing ceremonies? And wait in line? Of course she had to be mindful, and apparently a second procedure was needed eventually, but it's like she's taking her 2008 experience - which was incredibly traumatic and did involve massive amounts of pain and limited off-ice mobility for a period - and using it for 2010, which is them all over. In 2008, she sucked that one up and came back and got on the Worlds podium and nobody knew how bad it was, and it's like she wants credit for it now ("now" = 2010) AND it comes in handy for the story their peddling, so they take it and make it their 2010 experience.
Not to argue with the main point here, but I can tell you with first hand knowledge that Tessa was indeed getting up to 5hrs of physio per/day even after the competition was over in Vancouver.
DeleteOh no, that's what I meant by tons of p/t. In fact it's my guess - based not just on her hours of p/t but the locations of the photo - that the day Scott had his photo shoot in parts of Paris with Jessica, his parents, and the Dube parents and were photographed in and around the Sacre Couer/Monmontre, it was while Tessa was at p/t. I think Tessa met up with them later for a video shoot on the carousel that became part of their Vancouver fluff (blowing bubbles on the carousel, a 2 decker). There's many outdoor carousels in Paris, one at the bottom of or near Sacre Couer, and it resembles the one in the fluff video.
DeleteJessica was also photographed on a carousel at night with Scott not next to her, but on the carousel in the background (it was in Alma's facebook).
I'm not dismissing what she needed to do to manage her legs. The p/t was important. Brannagan actually talked a lot about what she was doing at the time. In addition to actual p/t, Scott would massage Tessa's legs after the od.
I'm saying what she didn't have to count steps to the cafeteria. THAT intensity, that level of not just pain, but limited function, was after her first surgery, trying to get through to and past Worlds 2009.
7:18 - I have heard from several sources that Tessa was indeed getting hours of physio every day. However, I have to admit to not believing the "counting steps to the cafeteria" story because of the other photo-evidence of Tessa walking in the opening and closing ceremonies, etc. Having said that, through the years it's evident Tessa and Scott are adept at weaving some truth into the lies. It's not always easy to know which parts of the stories to take at face value and which not.
DeleteDo you know if the cafeteria-counting-steps is accurate? Or is it more that she had periods of intense pain when she walked, but not necessarily that she literally counted steps?
From what I understand she had pain after she skated, not when she walked, and it was due to the intensity of the od. This is 2009-2010 I'm talking about, not post-surgery 2008-2009.
DeleteWhat she went through in 2008-2009 in terms of diminished function due to extreme pain (which was initially due to the nature of the surgery - and prior to the surgery, the nature of the condition itself - you try having your muscles attempt to expand while you're working them intensely but the fascia surrounding them is rigid) has not been elaborated upon, which would be typical of them. That was a real thing, and extremely frightening, so they kept a lot of that to themselves (and also he was with her and part of the story, so there's that reason too). So of course take the real experience and dramatize it for 2009-2010. I'm not denying she needed to manage her legs and they were still an issue (the fact that she had to do p/t instead of work with Maria Mountain testifies to that), just that she's embellishing to make the season be a trauma, when the season wasn't a trauma.
806 i believe you are correct about their ability to weave truth into lies. As for the counting steps, that may have happened as oc says after the OD. Injury recovery and treatment are not linear though and some days can randomly be worse than others and require way more therapy than the days activities dictate.
DeleteMicroexpressions are awesome.
ReplyDeleteIn the video of V/M's interview with Russian fans at Cup of Russia, there's a moment when the woman interviewing them says she wants to ask them a personal question. Her question pertained to the Igor/Marina coaching split and she was very careful to preface it with "I'd like to ask you a personal question but you don't have to answer if you don't want to" or something like that. Of course, V/M didn't know she was going to ask about coaching. From the look of momentary terror/dread that came over both their faces, followed by some intense faked smiles meant to cover up their uncomfortableness, I assume V/M thought this woman was going to ask them about the marriage and baby (perhaps the lady might have deemed them "rumors" in her question) or anything that would put V/M in a position to have to answer that stuff, which is why Scott immediately burst out with "yes you can, but we may not answer it" blah, blah, blah. Why so quick to burst out with that, Scott? Was it in any way connected to the fact that you and your wife looked like deer caught in headlights in that moment?
I know. They suck at lying because they constantly act guilty. Not guilty because they're not giving fans the answer they pretend fans want. Guilty cause they're lying.
DeleteI wonder if it's guilt or just discomfort though. I said after looking at the reality show interview that it just seems as if they're uncomfortable having to sit in a room with their lies. They're the hit and run king and queen. Having to stick around and look people in the face and peddle the lies and rationales makes them look themselves in the face as well for at least that period of time. Tessa seems to do fantastic things with her mind :), and she sure leans in hard, but Scott's discomfort is palpable.
I wonder though, if he's uncomfortable with the lying, as lying, at all, as long as he's mobile and can just hit it and quit it and forget about it. Having to sit there with himself and deal with it for any length of time seems problematic.
One of the best moments is in what looks like the green room of the Marilyn Dennis show, when someone is asking them if it gets annoying to be asked if they're dating, Scott says yeah, and Tessa OF COURSE has to come in with the embellishment - she feels guilty, she feels like they're disappointing people, and there's only so many ways you can say no.
("Only so many ways you can say no" - man does that open the door for a few illustrations of the ways.)
Anyway, while Tessa is saying this, she commences both pulling down and rolling up the sleeves of her athletic top, and plucking at them as well. Scott's eyes go up to the ceiling and he talks over her by saying "Ohhhhh." and when she's finished says "That's why you're guilty." (like, oh THAT's why. Sarcasm.)
I always wondered if his extreme sheepishness and editorial comment facial expressions were because he was embarrassed in front of whoever it was was asking the questions, not embarrassed in front of us. They care when the red light is on, so when they're not on camera, it's possible Scott behaved with Tessa as he always does, so when the red light went on and this guy asked the question, he felt stupid and felt the guy knew he was lying and lying in a stupid way, because they're both stupid when they lie.
As the Olympics nears, I anticipate a new wave of "this has been so special, it's going to be SO HARD not to see him/her everyday when we're no longer competing!" bullshit.
Delete"Oh, what will I do when I can't see Tessa everyday at the rink?!?"
Uh, I don't know, you're married to her and she's the mother of your child. I assume you'll see her at home everyday like you do now, dude.
I wonder if they'll be asked about their plans for their personal lives now that their lives won't be organized around competing. I really don't want them to go as low as they've demonstrated they will go, but I'll have a better idea of how low they're actually willing to go after this reality show drops. After the reality show, we'll know if they'll say parenthood is "down the line" or if Scott hints at marriage plans with his girlfriend.
DeleteSomething you may find relevant. Jian Gomeshi's previous career? Part of political satire band called Moxy Fruvous. They could have written a hell of a song about V/M, it was right up their alley.
ReplyDeleteWith that in mind it's almost as if he's parodying a d.j. in this job, because I find the whole low Dr. Love voice a little hard to take. It gets in the way of really hearing him. When I do start to hear him, I start to realize- oh, not so dumb.
Deletewhy the hell would he disrespect tessa and scott that way
Deleteis she still pregnant in the Q TV one ?
ReplyDeleteShe's pregnant in that one.
Deleteoc
http://topics-that-make-you-go-hmmm.blogspot.ca/2013/11/an-amateur-investigative-report.html
DeleteHere's how this works, @12:33. You can put together photo/video collages all you want and try to deduce the truth based on them alone, or use general pregnancy facts to supposedly prove or disprove something (though she is visibly pregnant in several of those photos/videos), but the fact remains that Tessa Virtue DID have a baby. It's not something some people believe because they came to the conclusion via video/photo evidence. It's something they KNOW, period. Feel free to look at photos and video as much as you'd like. The truth is still the truth whether you believe it or can determine something from what you think you can or cannot see.
DeleteAlso, just to point out, Shall We Dance on Ice aired in November but was filmed in early September. So if you want to "let your 'facts' do the talking," you should probably get those "facts" correct.
I remember smiling at Tessa's wardrobe from that book signing in Sarnia. Baggy, button down pink shirt and high waisted black pants to cover the growing baby bump and distract from her middle. When I first saw the photos I wondered if she was wearing Scott's pants, haha. Then I realized those were the kind crafted to expand at the waistline.
DeleteI thought Tessa was a cute pregnant lady. :)
I appreciate the efforts of the person who made that other blog, although their conclusion is wrong (and excellent rebuttal, whoever you are). I do know VM’s true status because I have a credible source who filled me in. As a casual fan who didn’t follow all of their interviews and photos while they were off-ice it wasn’t apparent to me at all that she was pregnant. I feel that I’m in somewhat of a privileged status because I know the truth, so I understand how frustrating it must be for those who read this blog and just see everyone insist that the sham is a fact. As much as I respect what OC is doing, sometimes (IMVHO) I think it is overstated how easy this information is to find “if only you researched it.” You can google for pics of that era but you aren’t going to get them all magically in chronological order with dates when each show was taped. IMO for those who followed FanForum at the time you might understand references like “Monaco” but for someone who was only on FSU or Goldenskate and didn’t lurk on personal facebooks you would have missed the entire point. Everything is discussed on this blog but it’s a lot to wade through especially if you don’t know all the background. I only learned the truth recently and several months ago I was totally confused by the references on this blog, and I didn’t understand where to “easily find” all this information. I got the flavor by reading the bits and pieces on the blog, but nothing stood out as a smoking gun. Now knowing what I know, I look at all of the pictures and it’s so fucking obvious I have to laugh. I agree with 4:14 that the truth is the truth no matter what, but I can understand how someone reading this blog would want to see evidence. I think it’s great that people are going to the trouble of putting together a detailed timeline.
DeleteThis blog is very empirically-minded when it comes to the skating: the arguments are well-organized with tons of evidence and backed by detailed explanations rooted in the rulebook and basic dance, blade, and lift technique. The discussion about the sham can sometimes feel a little insider-y – it assumes that we’ve been following from the beginning and understand the basics. For example, in the header with the fan cardiogram, every single one of those photos has a history behind it; the references to “les amoureux” and “t’aime” are specific references and not just words thrown out because Jessica is French-Canadian. A person who hasn’t been paying attention would look at that and have it go right over their head. Of course, it is discoverable by researching it, but it would be great if someone made a timeline about the non-pregnancy part of the sham will all their contradictions.
I’m not trying to say that OC needs to make timelines or annotate the blog. I understand this blog is to chronicle each step as they take it, to keep track of their bullshit. The blog starts with a bunch of photos and the caption about chocolates - it's forward-going. It assumes the readers know the context. The purpose is not to convince anyone, as that’s not something OC wants or needs to spend time doing. Just saying not everyone has the time to research it for themselves or would even know where to start, so I think whoever created the blog posted at 12:33 is doing a service. People can draw different (sometimes incorrect) conclusions from it but at least the information is there. More conversations like this need to happen.
I get what you're saying 6:21. I do see a lot in the tumblr that combines assumption bias with limited understanding and, IMO, a warped perspective, but I can't argue with you at all that more conversations need to happen and I appreciate the video chronicle in the tumblr even if the interpretation of it is rigid and unenlightened.
DeleteThe blog tone is also reality based in that it can't be entirely cohesive because the blog is not sharing all of the information - or rather, the blog shares the essential information, but not the non-public support for the information.
I know for a fact about Virtue and Moir being married but have never said how I know for a fact, and it's going to stay that way. Like you and others, I know for a fact they're married and parents.
Just to say this - I don't think I've ever said that all of this (marriage, pregnancy) is easy to find "if only you researched it." It may have been said by others, but I haven't said it. I hope people don't believe that if they just google hard enough, they'll get the same information the blog has (or you have). I didn't get it from the web.
What's easy to find "if only you researched it" (but lack any non-public info) is, basically, that they're liars. They lied about the rift. That lie is public domain. They were very very explicit in the Q interview, in McLeans, and elsewhere, that they were completely, physically, virtually, electronically, telephonically, postal-ly - every way possible, out of contact during her recovery from her initial surgery. And yet there they are at Skate America. At the John Labatt Center. And, Marijane Strong talking about them practicing daily during her recovery.
There is also circumstantial evidence and timelines, available to the public, that cast suspicion on what Jessica Dube and Scott Moir presented to the public as their relationship (i.e., that they were boyfriend and girlfriend). The blog put together the Olympic free dance aftermath video that, while not proof in itself, certainly demonstrates that something is fucked up in Denmark (that video is linked on the blog). The empirically minded can look at that video and recreate it themselves with what's publicly available and realize, yep, that's what went down. And the video in question doesn't even include that Bryce Davison was waiting directly backstage at the arena (we see Vaughn Chipeur join in the post fd gathering in the Kiss'n'Cry, but not Bryce, but he was there).
OTOH, I don't think, if you don't KNOW that Tessa is pregnant, that what is publicly available on video and in photos and in the timeline (even their brief pattern of withdrawal - we'll be at the next comp! - withdrawal - we'll be at the next comp! - withdrawal) conclusively proves she was pregnant unless you KNOW she was pregnant. I get that. I get what the timeline poster is doing, and all I can say is, it doesn't unpregnant Tessa. She was pregnant and she had a child. Everything they did visually, everything they did with performance video, I don't know, but I know she was pregnant (and it also seems fairly obvious that they, along with Debbi Wilkes and SC volunteers, faked the book signing at the Hershey Center during Western Challenge. Nobody to date who attended Challenge has reported seeing the book signing or Tessa).
I also know she has one of the shallowest rib cages ever bestowed upon a woman and that the entire arc between that and her rear end filled in during her pregnancy and as well her rear end expanded so there was even more room, and that was the baby, and the entire silhouette sat under her exceptionally wide and straight shoulders, all of which abetted the cause of hiding. And people who think the only pregnancy silhouette petite women display is slender with a soccer ball abdomen are mislead.
Not all pregnancies result in babies you know. Some result in stillborns, miscarriages,abortions, some infants don't even live up to their first year. All the proof you have shown is proof of pregnancy but not proof of birth. If some people can dig up an online obituary of Tessa's grandmother than someone can dig up proof of birth. Y'all suck at investigating.
Delete^What I mean by proof of birth I mean 'Toddler Moir' birth certificate. I just used the obituary as an example.
DeleteWe've covered this before, but I'll go one more round. Birth certificates are not publicly available. They're a legal, government-issued document, but you can't just go around getting other people's birth certificates. That is true in both the US and Canada, thank goodness.
DeleteIf you look at the requirements for obtaining a birth certificate in Ontario, the only two people who can do that are Tessa and Scott. Toddler Moir will become the third when she reaches her 13th birthday. That's it.
Oh sure, accessing online, unofficial obituaries created with the permission of the deceased before death or his/her family, church, or other organization responsible for setting up the funeral following the death, and accessing a government-issued, legally protected birth certificate is roughly the same thing.
DeleteJust last month, an individual who used to work for the same company I do passed away. No obituary was posted online or in the local newspaper. Should I assume he's not dead?
Another error in that new blog is that the Q video was from Nov 2010, and just uploaded to youtube in February. Hence the uber curly hair and full cheeks.
Delete"What I mean by proof of birth I mean 'Toddler Moir' birth certificate. I just used the obituary as an example."
DeleteReally? Go dig up the birth certificate, on line, of the child of someone else.
Better yet, do your research. Marriage documents and birth documents are mostly not public documents without the consent of the parties. Go ahead and try it to get a copy of a certificate that isn't yours, your child's, or a parent's. Try and get confirmation that one exists.
Will those of you who are connected to "credible sources" tell the rest of us how V/M are handling the logistics of an almost 3 year old?
DeleteMeaning, TM is now old enough to go to the pumpkin patch, the Christmas tree farm, preschool, playdates, museums, the zoo, etc. How do T and S handle these family outings, especially if they're putting out a show that says they aren't married and aren't parents? Do they only take her to places where everyone is in on the hoax? How does that work at places like the zoo or museums?
Hopefully you connected people can provide some answers. Thanks.
9:34, I'd like to know that as well. Do they never go out as a family? If so, that's a very sad way of living their lives. I guess the poor child can visit the Ilderton arena and that's about it.
DeleteIf Scott and Tessa are so paranoid about being seen together, I doubt they'd go anywhere together with a child unless that place is locked down and/or populated only by people who know the deal.
If birth certificates are unattainable, then what about baptism certificates? Scott and Tessa are both catholic (Scott for sure since he is always wearing that cross necklace which I wouldn't be surprised if he got that from a relative on his baptism. I'm positive that if he had a child he would baptize it ASAP.) Tessa I'm not so certain as she doesn't SEEM as religious as Scott. But she does have catholic family/ancestors.
DeleteI'm not Catholic, but it seems they are very serious about baptism certificates and records. The records are kept by the churches and the church has to be contacted in order to get a copy. Assuming VM had their child baptized, I don't think the church will be handing out copies to strangers (same as they wouldn't hand out a copy of any child's certificate to a stranger).
Delete12:17 again.
DeleteI just came across this page on archives.com: http://www.archives.com/experts/alzo-lisa/researching-roman-catholic-church-records.html
This line is included part way down the page:
"Finally, remember Church records are private records--they don't have to let you look at them."
"Meaning, TM is now old enough to go to the pumpkin patch, the Christmas tree farm, preschool, playdates, museums, the zoo, etc. How do T and S handle these family outings, especially if they're putting out a show that says they aren't married and aren't parents? Do they only take her to places where everyone is in on the hoax? How does that work at places like the zoo or museums? "
DeleteWhile I don't know, I think this question presupposes that Virtue and Moir are more famous than they are. Although they lie as they breathe, even in the Q interview embedded in this blog they say they're seldom recognized, especially out of figure skating drag. I believe them. Outside of an event arena, where figure skating fans concentrate, where would they need to hide? Tessa says that at arenas, that's where they assume their personas. (I would love an interviewer to press them further on this point - what personas? How is a persona different from being who you are? If they take their personas seriously - what is it they're taking seriously? How are they role models? Etc.)
People occasionally tweet that they've seen Virtue and Moir but that's occasionally. I don't recall very many tweets (although I could be missing them) of seeing Charlie and Tanith out and about - at restaurants, at the park, shopping, at hotels, etc., even though they're a public couple.
IOW, I don't think it's the issue skating fans might think it is, as skating fans are a small segment of the population even in Ontario. Hell, apparently even at Canadian figure skating championships not all the fans there know who Virtue and Moir are. The further away they are from the rink, the less chance they'll be spotted as Virtue and Moir with their baby. And the "uber" fans (on the internet, spending free time talking about Virtue Moir) are an even smaller group. The odds favor Virtue and Moir.
oc
P.S. I don't think the blog has described them as paranoid about being seen together in general. It's noted that they're ridiculous when it comes to being on camera together in situations where we'd expect them to be together even if they're platonic - specifically, on buses to practice venues or at banquets. That's theatre more than paranoia, and has always been absurd.
DeleteMore and more it appears as if they think they're simply protecting the use of what they think is their brand or product.
If someone has their video aimed at them off ice - a banquet, a show, a practice - they're going to walk in separately to preserve the brand for their own use. The reality show is going to show them together thither and yon (but always platonically) but other people's cameras can't show them together at a banquet or on a bus, because it's not THEIR cameras.
The above is different than every day paranoia, which I don't think they have at all. They say a lot of shit about where they go and what they do but the reality is the fans don't know if they live (or even have a residence) in Michigan or not, or if they commute from Windsor, or how they actually manage themselves off ice when not training or reality-showing.
I think they're far from paranoid. I think they're quite confident because the only media that knows the deal with them is in the tank; there's no tabloid element to be cautious around.
The 'apparent' paranoia around skating events is actually something else, IMO. It's obnoxiousness.
Me too. It's one thing for the media and those involved in Scott and Tessa's promotion to avoid dealing with the hoax. It's another thing entirely to add their own voices to the hoax. Pyette, in his last interview, made sure to put everything in quotes. Rosie DiManno, who at this stage, groupie that she is, knows the deal, put, in her own words, in parenthesis that they're "Still not sweethearts off the ice." IOW, she's helping them hoax. Milton - what's his story? He's a legitimate sports journalist who has actually received recognition honors for his sports reporting. Does he know they're married? The book might be one thing but he's repeated the hoax party line since.
ReplyDeleteExactly what makes it okay to lie and hoax figure skating fans? Because I think that's why they do it. It's okay to hoax a bunch of figure skating fans. Not deny, not not reveal, but it's okay for media to pro-actively assist a hoax by independently confirming what they know to be a lie.
The rift proves more than that Tessa and Scott are huge liars. It proves that figure skating media doesn't give a shit that they're liars. Tessa and Scott and Scott's appearance during Skate America, smack in the middle of her recovery is on youtube with a pretty high number of views. Marijane Strong's remarks are part of the Canadian broadcast of the 2009 Canadian nationals. Scott and Tessa also appeared and were photographed at an event at the John Labatt center, which was also published. Anybody can find this stuff. Nobody bothered. It's because figure skating fans are stereotyped, most of the writing about figure skating fans insults them, and the reason figure skating fans are insulted is because they're the whipping boy for a lot of shady decisions that wouldn't fly in reporting any other sport.
ReplyDeleteYou can't tell me the (apparently mostly male) hockey fan demographic are a bunch of brain trusts and that's why the comment booth in hockey and the writing about hockey wouldn't pull this shit on the hockey public. There's not a lot of putting down of the hockey watching public by those who cover hockey. Football fans aren't all the best and the brightest either, but nobody tries this shit.
What sets figure skating fans apart? The sport figures they're mostly women. That's it. That's the whole reason we get shit for commenting, shit for journalism, and shit for a lot of the social media, all of which is insulting in itself, and then we get actual insults for good measure - partonized beyond belief.
And yes, there is proof in the public domain that Tessa and Scott are liars - lying their faces off in that interview, in McLeans, and everywhere they peddled the rift. They're primitive liars, so whatever the truth is, do the opposite. The timeline of the supposed rift was the time Tessa and Scott weren't just preparing for the Olympics, but preparing for their marriage during TEB. So of course the way to go is peddle a story that during this time "Scott and Tessa didn't even know each other anymore." Put it out there that, far from being engaged/nearly married, they were estranged.
ReplyDeleteThey didn't insinuate, they didn't suggest, they didn't generalize - they spelled it out, explicitly, that they didn't see each other. Didn't text. Didn't pick pick up the phone. Didn't email. It wasn't "didn't communicate" as in "weren't on the same page" "had wires crossed". It was literal. They are up there in the Q interview acting it out. Serious faces. Emotional. Earnest tones of voice. Elaborating on the psychology behind the rift. Lying.
Lying liars lying. We know it because their togetherness during that time is in the public realm. There's video. There's photographs. And beyond what I know or anyone else knows that's not public, there's Marijane Strong (linked here on the blog) telling us that Scott and Tessa were working in her apartment every single day during her recovery.
Funny how they haven't brought that rift up again. It's like it never happened. Just like nobody seems to bring up the 4CC free dance withdrawal in 2011. It was bizarre because when they interrupted their program in 2013, fans brought it up (I think), or remembered, but the media seemed to have amnesia about 2011.
oc
12:33 forgot to link to the video where you can see the baby kicking in Tessa's stomach.
ReplyDeleteSeriously?
Deletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15i4404vg2Q
Deleteya, you seriously see her breathing deeply with her diaphragm!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_1wCZLLYDQ - Do you see how subtle an actual baby kick it is compared to her labored breathing? labored, heavy breathing which makes hers and anyones stomach rise and fall, pregnant or not.
I'm a runner. My stomach has never done that. The only time I've ever seen a stomach move like that was if it belonged to a pregnant lady.
DeleteHave you ever seen Tessa's stomach do that after a competitive skate?
Have you ever seen a baby turn a flip inside of it's mother when it's still small enough to do so? Tessa wasn't 8 months at SWDOI. At SWDOI, Fetal Moir still had room to flip.
I suggest you watch some more videos. Babies movements aren't always subtle, especially mid-pregnancy. Towards the end, they don't move as much because they're running out of room.
9:26. Having experienced more than one pregnancy I can say it's true that's what's happening. The baby is still small enough to flip and stretch. And no one's deep breathing ever resembles a baby's movements, it's ridiculous to say that.
DeleteTowards the end of the pregnancy Mom does feel the baby moving quite a lot but with the lack of room it's not so noticeable to any observer.
i didnt know babies grew in stomachs ;)
DeleteThey grow in a uterus, which grows and rises up out of the pelvis and occupies the abdomen, pushing mom's organs around.
Delete9:07 here
Deletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yjtw5Jbmlw
9:26, you claim to be a runner, then this new information should help you immensely. I have seen Tessa stomach do that after every competition that i have watched..as well as Scott and a plethora of other skaters and athletes in general because it is the most efficient way to oxygenate the body, plus it lowers the heart rate.
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGON0lPkufY
9:47 that woman has clearly earned her stripes before, as well and the video is absolutely nothing like what is going on with Tessa stomach in that video. here is another. again, it is intensely more subtle then the tessa breathing with her diaphragm video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CCLaEmUWpg
Funny, I knew absolutely nothing about this flipping thing. Just knew that sometimes babies "kicked". And the second video you linked, 11:02, looks to be exactly what is happening with Tessa's stomach. Cool!
Delete(Why didn't you link a video of a woman in profile doing this breathing thing so we can compare?)
Yeah, 1:57. I can't tell a lot from watching a video of a man from the front. Tessa's stomach wasn't a controlled, smooth breath action like you'd see from breathing (diaphragmatic and otherwise). Tessa's abdomen rose and fell in a way different from breathing.
DeleteOf course, ignoring the obvious, it doesn't matter what you think of the video. Your thoughts don't magically make Tessa unpregnant at that point in time or erase a living, breathing child from this world. There are a number of us who know this information not from video or photos, but because we've asked the right people the right questions.
11:02, I love how you linked a video shot at a completely different angle from the video of Tessa. 1:57 is right that it looks like what was happening with Tessa's abdomen.
For the person who didn't know babies flipped, really? How in the world do you think babies head up head down in utereo to be born? Older family members still talk about one of the people in my generation turning flips constantly while inside of their mother.
what if the whole breathing thing has to do with cecs?remember when tessa stopped at 4cc people were throwing a shit fit because she stopped for a "breather?" little did those asswipes know that compartment syndrome does cut off oxygen supply to the limbs and that breathing is important to tessa because it helps her deal with cecs. i remember after worlds 2011 after their fd they interviewed them and tessa was breathing so oddly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnmtwugh7w4 tbh i've never seen her do that.
Deleteand really ifthat was a baby kicking wouldnt it be more sporadic?
9:07 and 11:02 here
DeleteI thought his demonstration and explanation were wonderful. I can not control what/how people record stuff and i figured everyone has youtube and can do more research if they wanted - since that is not the case.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuMC9OxjxRg at around 8:50 they move to the side - sorry it is a man again, but he is shirtless and it is very clear to see what is happening, the principle physics are the same for both genders though.
and while i am at it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WMt_1jw47Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYu1IK71ApM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_i7JHgigy4
Now, I never said once that I didnt believe she was pregnant. I dont really know, now do I? I was never disputing that. I was disputing that it was her breathing with her diaphragm, not a baby kicking or flipping and that from the distance and clarity of the video we would not have even been able to see such a subtle moment. dont ask me for any more proof, or whatever - thats not my job. I have knowledge on the subject and it is blatant what is happening, I thought it better to share that then let it run. Believe what you want. As I do.
Yes anon 6:38, from the videos I was watching/linked and pregnant women I have known, it is more sporadic.
4:37,
DeleteYou pulled up a couple of brief youtube videos and are trying to extrapolate from that all fetal movement in all pregnant woman in the history of the world is subtle. It's not all subtle.
You can stomp your feet up and down all day, but that was Fetal Moir in that video, moving about inside of Tessa. Other people have knowledge about pregnancy and it's blatant that it's a baby moving there.
Look, the reason why people know Tessa and Scott are married and have a child isn't from video or photo. It comes from talking to real people with knowledge _offline_. What a novel thought. YOU may not know that Tessa was pregnant, but I and others do know for a fact that she was because we got answers from real people.
The pregnancy timeline blog has added another post, but seems to confuse Tessa's waist BANDS (where she's wearing the waist of her clothing) with her actual waistline.
DeleteIn all the lying googling I did, it was emphasized how important it is to understand a person's baseline behavior and mannerisms before interpreting their body language as possibly = lying. For Tessa, I think it's important to look at HER pre-pregnancy body, not the bodies of women on the web, and HER pre-pregnancy waist, and overall silhouette. Not where she hikes her waistband after she's pregnant.
While I think the exercise is fine (assembling video and scrutinizing) the reasoning fail is frustrating.
oc
6:38, but Tessa's diaphragm isn't contracting a la your video. And I've NEVER seen Tessa's pelvic area expand that way.
DeleteDeep breathing as you illustrate engages the entire diaphragm. Tessa's entire diaphragm isn't engaged, that's visible even in the medium shot video of Fetal Moir. It's an independent movement from inside her body.
The reality is she IS pregnant in the videos in question, and, as has been re-stated numerous time, this information isn't extrapolated from video. It's real information, real knowledge.
But I would be curious to see you locate another video of TESSA breathing that way with the same contour as a result. You've said it's happened many times, so it must be a simple task to gif or point to a clip, considering all the practice, warm-up and competitive video available. I'd like to see what you believe is the same thing.
oc
On flickr there is an album of photos of Tessa, Scott, and Steve Milton signing books at 2011 Skate Canada. In a couple of shots, Tessa is leaned over to sign a book and you can clearly see she was wearing what looks like a girdle of some kind underneath her jeans.
DeleteThe reasoning fail is exasperating. The person behind the pregnancy timeline blog seems hell bent on trying to use photos of how other women's pregnancies progressed as a means to prove that Tessa wasn't pregnant.
DeleteI think a lot of people trip up on not considering what Tessa's normal size in. She's normally a tiny, delicate looking person (who could probably kick the behind of anyone who tried to mess with her into next week when it comes to strength and fitness). Tessa is not normally the size of a normal woman. Most people want to say "well, she wasn't larger than a normal woman, so she couldn't have been pregnant." Well, when Tessa grew thicker and wider, she may have passed through the size of a non-athletic woman, but that was passing through to being large for her.
Not only was Tessa's pelvic expansion not controlled and smooth, there was no corresponding contraction of her diaphragm, and her posture and carriage is entirely different than the man's in the video.
DeleteBut again, as you've seen it many times, pointing out where this has happened with her before, with that much amplitude in the expansion, shouldn't be difficult.
Again I think the smartest thing people could do is really look at Tessa's pre-pregnancy body, it's proportions, etc., but people don't. Her body type is far from common. She's more than just a slender young woman. She's well put together but the proportions of her shoulders to her ribcage, waist, hips are not all that common, particularly as seen from the side or 3/4ths at that time, when it can be seen how seriously narrow she is front to back, and how deep that curve is in her "dancer's back".
oc
oc
5:59, I'm assuming you meant SC 2010.
DeleteI'm going to go search flickr now. Someone else in the know suggested the idea once that Tessa might have been wearing spanx or something similar when she appeared in public during her pregnancy to make her look smaller than she really was.
6pm - the timeline blog also uses KATE MIDDLETON as a trump card. The timeline blog apparently believes the fitness of Kate Middleton - an athletic, physically fit, 30 year old, naturally slender civilian, is comparable to the physical fitness of an lifelong 20-21 year old elite competitive athlete and Olympian in the prime of her competitive career. These two are not even in the same universe, but all the blogger apparently sees is the two are both slender. In addition, Tessa was NOT back to her pre-baby shape even by 4CC's, and her costumes (which do have stretch/compression fabric) helped. This person is talking about the length of time it took Kate Middleton to return to her pre-baby shape, instead of looking on the web for other elite athletes after pregnancy, where the story is quite different. And these women are for the most part older than Tessa, competitive athletes, but not always best in the world.
Deleteoc
Yeah, SC 2010. It's under a fangirlphotos account, although looking at it again, I don't see what I thought I did. Maybe her jeans were just really stiff. Nevertheless, the woman was pregnant.
DeleteOn 30 Rock, Tina Fey had Liz Lemon make meta jokes about wearing compression garments and other shapewear for so long it was a relief to get out of them finally. The other characters looked puzzled and Liz Lemon sort of went "Oh nothing!" Fey was joking about her second pregnancy where she wore undergarments to keep it under control for the cameras.
Deleteoc
B-level, if I'm being very generous, actress Molly Sims talked about wearing spanx during her pregnancy in order to keep things looking neat. I think Tessa wearing spanx or similar when making public appearances while pregnant would not be shocking.
DeleteThis was from November.
Deletehttp://www.flickr.com/photos/rootscanada/5143026773/in/set-72157625180538409
4:37 you seem to believe baby's movements are always subtle. Someone upthread already said they are not and I can confirm that. I well remember my baby poking her fist or foot hard enough to create a bump protruding from my abdomen. Especially one time when every time I pressed down somewhere on my abdomen, that baby would answer back with a hard poke that could be seen across the room. I was also only about 6 months pregnant.
DeleteI also only gained about 5 pounds in the first 4 months, but boy oh boy did my boobs get bigger immediately!
Don't make the mistake of thinking you can judge anyone's pregnancy based on any averages. Every woman is different and factoring in Tessa being an elite athlete with rock-hard abdominal muscles will also change any law of averages.
Tessa being an elite athlete, Tessa's normal contours being that of a woman with such a narrow rib cage (front to back) that she can cinch higher on her rib cage and still be more narrow than the waistlines of many women all contributed to her ability to finesse the appearance of pregnancy, but she's not a miracle woman. The reality is that her silhouette completely changed. It squared off. The narrow torso was gone. It all still fit under her shoulders but man, the story front to back was a major major difference.
DeleteFor those looking at breathing, etc., it's not enough to look at an isolated part of the body. It's necessary to see how the entire action is accomplished.
"Not only was Tessa's pelvic expansion not controlled and smooth, there was no corresponding contraction of her diaphragm, and her posture and carriage is entirely different than the man's in the video."
DeleteThis. Also, if you pay close enough attention, you'll notice that at the same time the baby is moving, Tessa is laughing.
I don't think you can breathe from the diaphragm while you're laughing.
Yep, she's laughing and her chest isn't open the way it is with deep breathing.
DeleteThe lightened and outlined photos on the other blog, pointing to Tessa's "waist" (BAND), fail to realize that Tessa Virtue is not a shortwaisted, high waisted woman. For a look at TESSA VIRTUE's pre-pregnancy body compared to HER pregnancy body, rather than comparing oneself to Tessa Virtue, how about comparing Tessa Virtue to Tessa Virtue. A good starting place is some of the angles in the Rick Mercer video - stills and film, especially when they do footwork. Tessa is wearing what looks like a bodysuit with tiny shorts, and in that outfit you can see how extraordinarily narrow she is through her diaphragm and small a rib cage she has, and then look at some of the photos in the rebuttal on that blog, that outline her pregnancy shape. Especially look at the back of Tessa front to back, and side to side. People only look at the projection in the front. She turned into a mini-fridge. - for her. She squared off.
BTW - hiking the waistband is a common trick to hide pregnancy.
Just for information...Miki Ando told recently that she wasn't aware of her pregnancy until the 5th month...and meanwhile she was doing shows !It's an interview for an italian figure skating magazine
ReplyDeletelike tessa
Deletehow the hell do you not know you're pregnant when its so obvious? the weight gain etc???
DeleteIf you're saying Tessa didn't know she was pregnant until her 5th month, that's not true.
DeleteLOL, 6:40. I'm wondering if you've ever been pregnant yourself. It's not always so obvious, especially if you're an elite athlete.
DeleteFirst, you don't tend to gain a lot of weight in the first trimester (usually only up to about 5 pounds). I gained 3 pounds with both of my pregnancies in the first 3 months. You're only supposed to gain 30 pounds over the course of the entire pregnancy, and most of that if after month 5. If you have great abs (and depending on the way you carry your baby, and the way your body is), you won't start to show until month 5, or even later, as well.
Second, many serious athletes have irregular periods. Miki might have just thought everything was per usual when she wasn't getting hers.
Lots of women don't realize they're pregnant, especially if they don't get morning sickness and their periods are irregular.
It's funny, if you google "pregnant and hardly showing" or a similar combination, you'll find there's a lot of people who were or are pregnant late into the pregnancy and it hardly shows.
DeleteI don't, however, believe Tessa was one of these women, simply based on a) knowing she was pregnant and b) looking at photos and video of that time. Look at her baseline silhouette, particularly in practice gear (at the Rick Mercer feature around Canadians, for instance). As the blog has said, she had one of the shallowest rib cages bestowed upon a woman. I remember looking at a photo of her with other skaters and thinking the white space behind her (below the bust line) was part of her warm-up jacket, and realized no, that was white space - her actual silhouette was extremely narrow. And this was after the baby. I don't want to deconstruct her physique, but essentially she got thick, not rounded. She's got wide, square, very straight shoulders as a frame which made everything inside that frame look smaller. Everything in her torso filled out and squared off. Her size changed but the proportions didn't distort the way a pronounced projection would.
The S-curve in back nearly disappeared, even as the whole thing increased in size.
So she showed, She wasn't one of those hardly see it. People look for a pronounced projection in front and ignore side to side and back.
oc
And, I just went over to the blog to see the rebuttal that has a more accurate, organized timeline than the "investigation" shows, a rebuttal that also shows what's obvious - Tessa's silhouette changed completely.
DeletePeople didn't pay attention to Tessa's silhouette. For them it's either she's projecting in front, in the classic slender everywhere, contour in front silhouette, or she can't be pregnant. Meantime, for Tessa, her body turned into the shape of a sturdy mini-fridge (filled out and squared off underneath her shoulders front to back and side to side, while her wardrobe finessed her pelvis area), she changed her wardrobe style (Jack and Diane at Calgary Stampede was the only time she'd worn an undershirt underneath the midriff top - great idea for July - while every other time - and I think subsequently as well - she had a bare midriff for that number). At the Gemini awards her tier skirted dress was cinched high on her (narrow) rib cage, above her actual waistline. There's also her coat with the built out shoulders - building her shoulders out even more than they already are and thick belt she wore (again, high on her rib cage, above her waist) at an award event at the arena (I can't immediately find it via googling but she read a speech and then a recognition was bestowed upon a female figure skating notable).
Also, Tessa kept her muscle tone. There's nothing saggy or - best get back to the gym. And her boobs got fuller.
Contrast to, for example, Jessica Dube, who, as we saw in BOTB, noticably put on weight since her competitive days, and the impact of what is only weight gain on her silhouette, particularly the boob area (neglibable, or looks even smaller compared to the rest), and also, in workout gear, the overall body tone compared to a pregnant Tessa.
sorry like tessa was ironic
Deletehave you seen this
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTWhyM1dBkU
Judy Blumberg (USA) on the tech panel at TEB. Joy.
ReplyDeleteSo Tessa and Scott scored 75.31. But when you look at the protocol you can see that there was a judge who clearly wanted to score them lower. He did hurt their score.
ReplyDelete75.31 is pretty incredible given that Judy Blumberg probably had trip wires every 1/32nd of an inch in a grid pattern over the entire ice surface.
DeleteETA Same happened to P/B. I find it very odd that one single judge's opinion differs so much from the rest of the panel. Wonder what his plans were ...
DeleteI thought it was a pretty good outing, considering the changes done. I kind of miss the twizzles' old position in the SD, though. The only real nitpick I have is that the beginning of the final part--that is, the section immediately after the Finnstep-- doesn't seem quite 'settled' into the program yet. I am hoping that this final section leading into the lift will get a little more polish, but I'm confident that V/M and their team will do this successfully. Overall, an outstanding performance that fully showcases a *dance*.
DeleteRe:TEB. Am I the only one concerned that the judges might give V/M hell for having the same entrance for their SD lift and the 2nd rotational FD lift?
Delete