With thanks to canadablue:
You look at the comparison between these teams and it's obvious Paul/Islam didn't arrive at this level of skating yesterday. They've gotten stronger, but they had this talent and have been attentive to the fact that their discipline is ice DANCE and all the nuances of technique and bladework that that entails since their partnership began.
And yet it appeared to me at times, particularly last year, as if Skate Canada would have preferred they'd go away, or at least not do well, because they threatened Skate Canada's promotion of Gilles/Poirier. That's nuts but that's how it looked.
When Skate Canada was in the midst of its Gilles/Poirier promotional frenzy, it didn't seem as if they lifted a finger to get opportunity for Paul/Islam, a team with no reason to take a back seat to Gilles/Poirier in any respect, a team of ice dancers whose ice dance skills and multidirectional bladework done in and out of hold is substantially more developed than Gilles/Poirier's. It was as if Skate Canada wanted us to ignore them, lest anything distract from Piper & Paul.
I don't understand that thinking. Even the "error prone" knock against Paul/Islam doesn't hold water. They're a developing team. They're not going for gold. Patrick Chan fell on his ass left and right in the quad before this and he didn't have a different kind of quad (jump) either, and nobody thought well, he chokes, let him fend for himself. This (and last season, and prior seasons) is the TIME for Paul/Islam to make mistakes, to have bad competitions; that's how you learn what you need to have good competitions, so when their quad arrives, they're experienced.* But you need opportunity. Skate Canada was able to create opportunity out of thin air for Gilles Poirier (freaking TEB gala last year).
Part of the problem is the system, but, to repeat, Skate Canada prioritized opportunity for Gilles/Poirier last season and didn't lift a finger for P/I. And we can see from this comparison it certainly isn't about the skating.
I don't understand the thinking, unless one looks where it's often worthwhile to look where Skate Canada is concerned - at the directors who show every sign of being more interested in feathering their own nests than in supporting their skaters. If there's nothing in it for the directors personally, the skaters go under a bus (even Virtue Moir have experienced this it seems).
(So naturally, one wonders what IS and what WAS in it for Debbi Wilkes & Co. to fall over themselves promoting Gilles/Poirier. Paul Poirier was part of a strong team with his previous partner, but Skate Canada has eyes, and, except for when they can fake it at home, they knew damn well he couldn't skate well enough for two right off the bat.).
When we look at this comparison, clearly there is no skating reason to favor Gilles/Poirier over Paul/Islam. By "skating reason" I mean level of ability, quality of technique. Where they are as a team at this point in time, their place in the competitive picture.
I don't see the U.S. throwing pairs team Donlon Speroff under the bus. That's a gorgeous team in every way with a big gap where her jumps (and sometimes her throw landings, and sometimes his jumps) belong. Easy to write them off as beautiful no-hopers, but, lo and behold, they won Ice Challenge and she was actually in the neighborhood of clean. It's taken time (and as pairs seems more and more a sport for thirtysomethings, they have the time). When she struggled, they weren't banished to their training center.
It's always amazed me Paul/Islam don't get more attention from their fed or the skating world in general. Their skating is legit and continues to grow by leaps and bounds each season. I think the Chan comparison is apt insofar as "error prone" is concerned because Paul/Islam's skating skills are there in spades and what they're doing is far more intricate and difficult than anything Gilles/Poirier have put on the ice so far. It's not like Paul/Islam's skating skills disappear when they have a bad outing.
ReplyDeleteAs far as missed opportunities go, they were the team slated to skate at 2011 Four Continents in Tapei if Virtue/Moir decided not to skate that competition.
I think they would have been there if Virtue Moir didn't need a judges' panel feedback on the short dance before Worlds. I believe that is the only reason they went to the 4CCs. They did intend, and did compete, both programs at Worlds. They were defending World champions and this was the season the short dance was introduced. It was a cd/od hybrid with the pattern incorporated somewhat strangely. If it were the old format of cd/od/free dance, they could show up at Worlds, as other competitors have done in the past. If it were the season after the short dance was introduced, same. But it was the season it was introduced, it was the first time Virtue and Moir had done a short dance, and I don't think they felt Worlds was the place to get their first and only verdict as to if the short dance checked all the boxes, so to speak. :P
DeleteSo the 4CCs, in my opinion, was a necessary step to prepare them for Worlds in Moscow. They didn't compete there just to be dicks.
Everything around that decision - the hustle before they competed (oh the free is the AWESOME, the lifts are spectacular, the program will blow the lights out, their practice was stunning, they're competing TWO programs!!!), the fake out withdrawal (that is my firm conviction) - is as bashabale as it gets. If they'd admitted their real situation, it would be publicly known when she had the baby and nobody would believe she'd actually compete the free dance, so when they withdrew it would be absolutely transparent that they went there intending to bail after the short. IOW, they didn't go in good faith as far as that competition (the 4CCs is not a comp where you can sign up to compete only one phase) but it was "necessary" for their Worlds preparation.
I don't think Virtue/Moir were deliberately being dicks in choosing to skate at Four Continents to prepare for Worlds. But it *was* a missed opportunity for Paul/Islam. They could have benefited from that additional international exposure and they didn't get it because Virtue/Moir decided to have a baby and come back that same season.
DeleteP.S., and we all know that test panels at home aren't the same thing. This year, Scott is "excited" to go to the GPF because that's what really counts. Their programs have been received well but what really counts is competition against the presumed main rivals. Until then you don't know.
DeleteOnce they showed the short dance at the 4CCs, they had what they needed to continue preparing for Worlds. They knew they didn't need to tweak anything in the short, that it was ready, and they could focus on getting the free ready (which, as we all saw, it was not, even when Worlds was delayed until April).
So it most certainly wasn't Scott and Tessa's real intention to skate the free at the 4CCs. These skaters aren't enthusiastic, gung ho amateurs. They're a business that strategizes and calculates before making decisions. IOW, they weren't in a movie where Tessa, not prepared training wise or post-partum-wise in terms of free dance lifts and other challenges, would say to Scott "I'm pumped! The adrenalin is getting to me! I think I can do it - let's try!" only to realize she'd overestimated her capabilities. They are strategic about preparation and peaking. If something interferes, they're strategic about how to manage that challenge.
Now, everything around it, how Scott and Tessa found themselves in this situation, that's a load of rotten eggs. I'm trying to imagine that "We couldn't admit we had a baby AND get short dance feedback vis a vis Davis White at the 4CCs, so we concealed it from the public" being part of the reason for concealing her situation and that's too awful to dwell upon.
Yes, I know, but once they were going to Worlds, going to the 4CCs was justified. They were the ones competing at Worlds, not Paul/Islam. To do so, they did have to test compete the short against Davis White so they'd know where to put their focus when preparing to defend their title.
DeleteHow it all came about, how it was managed, that is shady stuff, but I think Paul/Islam's missed opportunity, in this case alone, was not the major crime here. It was the lying from Virtue Moir.
The lying when they were at 4CC? Or the lying V/M did all season long? Because if it's the latter, I have a hard time seeing how the two issues aren't at least indirectly connected.
DeletePulling back to the bigger picture, I have wondered in the past and wonder still if 2011 wasn't the year the politics backfired on Virtue and Moir. If they'd taken this opportunity to be "balanced" and let her legs heal (read, bonded as a family and taken a brief hiatus from competition), Davis White would have won Worlds and Virtue Moir and Davis White would have both returned in 2012-2013 to renew the rivalry.
DeleteInstead I think a lot of the irrational political idiocies that are obviously part of elite figure skating kicked into play. I mean if a judge can like that a team "gives 110!" (even a low level judge must be getting noise from somewhere that judges actually consider this shit even at a higher level) - a judge is going to like that a team gave 110% all year, and a judge might not like that these uppity, better-than-you Canadians decided to join the party late and steal the prize DW had earned right from under their noses. Who do they think they are? Do they have no respect for DW at all? DW have competed all season and Virtue and Moir have so little respect they think they can waltz in, not even having trained half as much as DW - and defeat them not half trying?
As it turned out, all that calculation in pursuit of defending their title was for naught, DW were given the title anyway.
VM had an on ice reputation as the nice, sweet kids - they leaned a little too hard on that point but that was the image being peddled. It was a year after the piece on the Canton bff/rivals aired, the podium scene between the North Americans in Vancouver was a love fest, everywhere you looked it was sweetness and charm.
Then came 2011 and everywhere you looked from VM it was hinky hinky hinky and they KNEW it was hinky and we knew it was hinky. Shins or no shins they played it cagey in a way that was obvious they were being cagey and people started wondering what was up with them. Then it turned out they intended to come back at the last minute and not let their best friends have the World title. They must not respect their best friends as much as they pretended if they think a wing and prayer and a few weeks training are capable of defeating a team that competed all season and pointed all season towards Worlds.
THAT, I think, was part of the noise in the sport at the time. I didn't then, but now that I've actually looked at DW's program, definitely do now, believe that Virtue and Moir ought to have won. But they didn't. And I think their return played to some people pretty much as I've outlined here - it got bad reviews in the theatre section of the "sport".
They're connected but the reality is VM were the higher ranked team, they'd earned it on the ice, and they went to the 4CCs as part of their Worlds prep, and they were entitled to first dibs on that competition. They also thought they needed short dance exposure vis a vis Davis White because of Worlds. That's not the same as needing international exposure because you're a talented, developing team, but it's still a valid rationale for competing.
DeleteIt's just that as much as I admire P/I, I can't put their missing the 4CCs (where they were alternates) as a major part of my objections to all the lying VM did all season. I guess the alternative is they get rid of the sham they'd been running for about 3 years at that point, and then P/I get to go, but on the other hand, if they hadn't had a baby P/I wouldn't have gone either. It's not like VM having a baby denied them.
And I guess the catch would be - but VM went only to compete the short - and that's against the rules. They faked the withdrawal to get around the rules. P/I would have legitimately skated the short and the long.
DeleteYes, what VM did was typically them - go big when you're going to go fake. And I guess, although it might be tempting to think this way, to endorse a team manipulating the non-skating rules and requirements of a sport that often manipulates/plays them would be bad. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all.
The rule they broke at the 4CCs wasn't on the ice, it was faking the withdrawal to get around the requirement that entrants compete both phases. I'm not sure I really endorse turn about is fair play but I'm less outraged than I would be in another sport.
If they hadn't chosen to have a baby, P/I wouldn't have gone. The opportunity was there if VM had taken the season off, but they're not obligated to take the season off. They DID go to the 4CCs and get around the rules of entry, and accomplished what they came for - competing the short against DW in front of an international panel prior to Worlds. P/I would have gotten what they came for - international exposure/experience - an accomplishment that mostly serves their own interests/career/skating, just as VM competing served THEIR interests/career skating.
To me it gets down to how you feel about the fact that Virtue and Moir never intended to compete according to the requirements of entry, which is that entrants intend to skate short and long. If you DON'T believe they faked that withdrawal, then I don't see how P/I were deprived in any way, because that means you believe VM went there with legitimate intentions.
Perhaps this is not quite on topic but I thought the comment that pairs is more and more for thirtysomethings was interesting. Pang & Tong barely jump anymore but won the TEB based on their PCS scores. A lot of people seem think IJS ruined pairs, but more and more pairs are being marked on the quality of their skating skills, lines, unison, elegancy, harmony... the stuff that used to matter in ice dance. While thirtysomething pairs can display those qualities with dangerous overhead lifts, twists, jumps and throws, apparently Virtue Moir, at 24 and 26, are too old and have "lost something technically." Carolina Kostner gets older and loses her difficult combination jumps, but she's "more mature." Virtue Moir upgrade the difficult in all their elements and transitions, skate with more power and it's "they're not the same team anymore, isn't it so sad."
ReplyDeleteWell, the people saying that don't know what they're talking about. Virtue and Moir haven't just matured their skating, they, unlike the mature pairs teams you mention, have advanced technically and athletically, leaving DW even more in the dust.
DeleteI'm almost grateful to the CoR this past weekend, because ice dance tipped its hand that it is full of shit where judging is concerned. Some DW fans may clutch their pearls, feeling that if they express outrage too, it just puts DW on the "good" side of legitimate winners, but what happened with BS is what happens with DW. This is not just something special for BS. DW get it at every outing. DW fans can't make their case for DW on the skating. They can assert that DW are better, but they can't demonstrate it. They can't provide specific examples. HERE, in this part of the skate. Here, when they do this, that's how their skating is better (not their skating, their program). DW fans would have to work pretty hard to find instances where DW skate or dance at all, let alone skate and dance better than VM. And if DW were skating exactly as they skate now, but for Russia, fsu would explode with outrage over how they're scored, and more importantly, as far as this joke of a sport is concerned, the media would get in on the act as it did in 2010.
I think Shen & Zhao's 2010 comeback and gold medal win, him at age 36, inspired today's pairs teams. S/S are 30 and 34. Skaters are used to thinking of themselves as being over the hill at a young age, but they proved skaters can maintain or recover their peak when they're older (particularly in teams).
Maybe BOTB is an influence as well - seeing 40 year old Gordeeva landing a throw she taught a hockey player (btw, I wish all pairs teams would look at her season of BOTB and notice that a hockey player threw her while maintaining glide. He wasn't yanked off the ice. That part of the show had Gordeeva being extremely specific about the mechanics. No, he couldn't throw like "this" instead or at this point in time instead. He had to follow the specific mechanics every time, she said. If a hockey player can do it, the champions of today should be able to do it without leaving the ice. The throw wasn't landed due to Gordeeva's skating skills, although of course it couldn't happen without that. It was landed because she was thrown properly, put into the air properly.).
"A lot of people seem think IJS ruined pairs, but more and more pairs are being marked on the quality of their skating skills, lines, unison, elegancy, harmony... the stuff that used to matter in ice dance."
DeleteRuined it? No way. Watch Tatiana Volosozhar exit lifts and their triple twist on a beautiful running edge. They have better speed and ice coverage than everyone else, but their elements are also huge. And by huge I mean, not only big but technically stellar down to the smallest details.
Well, I would still prefer it if Max's blades remained in a glide when he throws her in the split 3 twist and the throws triples, but nobody else's do (I think Matthew Blackmer is the only guy I've noticed keeping his blades gliding) so that's a level playing field on that score.
DeleteEverything about Tatiana's technique is textbook. Max is, needless to say, extremely strong, on his feet and also in his body. He can keep his upper body in harmony with Tatiana on things like sbs jumps where he might land forward on his blade and she, of course, lands flowing onto a gorgeous back outside edge, but his body stays still and his timing and flow is aligned with hers and of course his blade does settle into the proper edge.
Those nits aside their skating skills are stunning. I can just spend their programs watching their feet. And they come around the corner and for long stretches I can't hear their blades, they're quiet.
"Well, the people saying that don't know what they're talking about. Virtue and Moir haven't just matured their skating, they, unlike the mature pairs teams you mention, have advanced technically and athletically, leaving DW even more in the dust."
DeleteYup. I've been going back and rewatching some of VM's older programs. Watching their recent programs back-to-back with the older stuff is quite something. Current day VM would kick the asses of the VM that skated in Vancouver. There's no other way to put it. Literally everything about their skating has improved since 2010.
"I'm almost grateful to the CoR this past weekend, because ice dance tipped its hand that it is full of shit where judging is concerned. Some DW fans may clutch their pearls, feeling that if they express outrage too, it just puts DW on the "good" side of legitimate winners, but what happened with BS is what happens with DW. This is not just something special for BS. DW get it at every outing. DW fans can't make their case for DW on the skating. They can assert that DW are better, but they can't demonstrate it. They can't provide specific examples. HERE, in this part of the skate. Here, when they do this, that's how their skating is better (not their skating, their program). DW fans would have to work pretty hard to find instances where DW skate or dance at all, let alone skate and dance better than VM. And if DW were skating exactly as they skate now, but for Russia, fsu would explode with outrage over how they're scored, and more importantly, as far as this joke of a sport is concerned, the media would get in on the act as it did in 2010."
I agree that ice dance tipped it's hand this past weekend on the judging.
It's been quite interesting to see the DW uber fans howling over what happened in Russia when DW have been gifted every single time they've stepped out on the ice in the past 4 years. If DW were Russian, the outcry would be deafening.
Speaking of FSU, I didn't think it was possible for that place to get any more dumb, but then it did over the past few days. At least 95% of the people posting over there are not fans of skating. They call themselves skating fans, but what they really like is any number of superficial bs attributes, coupled with theater and drama. The actual skating going in is the last thing that gets taken into consideration. Music, costumes, looks, perceived chemistry, and pretty much everything else gets cited as why a team is better. It's never anything to do with what's happening with the blades or with other mechanics pertaining to the skating. Trying to discuss the actual skating or the scoring gets one labeled as a nut.
Well, it does when it's ice dance, especially when VM and DW are involved. There was one post where someone pointed out that the scoring is discussed and dissected when it comes to a number of other skaters and teams (Chanflation, Lysachek vs. Plushenko, etc.), but it's never acceptable to bring up DW's skating and scoring.
Why are DW such a f'ing sacred cow? That's what I want to know.
"It's been quite interesting to see the DW uber fans howling over what happened in Russia when DW have been gifted every single time they've stepped out on the ice in the past 4 years. If DW were Russian, the outcry would be deafening."
DeleteD/W fans also cried foul when W/P didn't defeat V/M at SC, or at least thought the score differential should have been smaller. I think they like jumping on the W/P train partly because they want to see them overtake V/M.
W/P overtaking VM is the wet dream of every DW uber. They're that needy. They're that threatened. They need validation that badly.
DeleteIt's interesting over there at this moment. Apparently there are fans that believe the best figure skating is "concept-driven." This is a sport. The best figure skating has great figure skating in it.
Apparently the ISU is currently busy training ice dance judges to disregard that elementary point, and also teaching its judges to score on things that aren't set down in CoP. Score high if you think you saw %110. Score mediocre if superior skaters are "loose" with their music instead of flailing at every pulse.
FSU is program-driven, they don't give two shits about skating, not when it comes to ice dance. None of them have the time for that noise.
I don't know why DW are a sacred cow. They're American maybe. They've already been scored as World Champions, the sport isn't about to say 'My bad, they're actually not that good." The sport's going to go on as it began. That's how these things operate.
DeleteThe judging at CoR for all the world looked like, fuck it, DW get massive scores no matter what's on the ice, why should they be the only team? I'm gonna do it for B/S and if you bitch at me I'll point to the scores for DW. We can do this all day.
Like suddenly people wondered why only DW get this treatment and instead of calling DW the judging for DW into account, decided to try and get a piece of it for their skaters.
Well its interesting because with both TEB (IK) and the Cup of Russia (in all disciplines) there was a push for the home country in the PCS department and it was fairly obvious (and I think that's what Jeff Buttle alluded to in his tweet - it wasn't just in ice dance..)...well let's face it - the motherland does not want to be embarrased in figure skating in Sochi...Putin wants results...remember Worlds 2011 - who came to the rescue and hosted it..Moscow...a little payback ISU...it's not only DW that can get preferential treatment...
DeleteYeah but unless V/T break their legs on the the ice, they're going to win huge for Russia in pairs, and deservedly. The pairs gold medal will go back to Russia, and, furthermore, V/T are very popular internationally, not just in Russia. There's Russia's gold medal.
Deleteoc
You are correct that VT are a lock for pairs..but I also think that Russia will want the gold at the team event. VT has stated that they will only skate the short for the team event. Thus, if I had to guess BL will be skating the long - thus we need to up these guys rep up - that's what happened in Cup of Russia - then in the ladies Lip..outPCS Kostner...and so on...it was indeed an interesting event...
DeleteExcellent post! It's time P/I stopped being overlooked, they have gorgeous programs this season and it seems they are really hitting their stride in spite of the obstacles Skate Canada has thrown at them. As a fan, it's discouraging to see G/P continue to get more notice - yes, their programs are better this year than previous seasons, and they seem to be attempting to improve their skating, but P/I are READY and G/P haven't been able to beat P/I's SB for either program yet.
ReplyDelete"They've gotten stronger, but they had this talent and have been attentive to the fact that their discipline is ice DANCE and all the nuances of technique and bladework that that entails since their partnership began."
This is a team that REALLY gets it. Note the section pertaining to them in this Skate Canada roundup by Jacquelyn Thayer. http://www.ice-dance.com/main/2013-14-events/1744-skate-canada-international-wraps-with-a-dynamic-free-dance-event
"Their free dance to selections from Abel Korzeniowski’s scores for “W.E”. and “A Single Man” emphasizes frequent change of closed holds and a variety of dance styles, deliberate choices on the part of the team and choreographers Anjelika Krylova and Pasquale Camerlengo.
“When we constructed the program, we wanted to take pieces from this movie, pieces that we knew from the past that we were really strong at in terms of performance,” Islam said. “So, we took the tango, we have the waltz, and we have kind of an epic at the end. They’re all things that we think we really excel at, performance-wise, and that’s definitely something we considered when we were putting the program together and, so far, it’s working out quite well.”"
They know exactly what they're doing when they construct a program, and from this and other things I've read, it's extremely important to them that they are ICE DANCING, and what that entails in both skating skills and dance partnering.
(Also, I know there are plenty of fans of Jacquelyn's coverage here, for those who might have missed it - she has a relatively new website covering both dance and pairs - http://www.twofortheice.com/ - great stuff there)
>>They know exactly what they're doing when they construct a program, and from this and other things I've read, it's extremely important to them that they are ICE DANCING, and what that entails in both skating skills and dance partnering.<<
DeleteYes, and why wasn't that integrity of approach, not to mention the fact that this team was committed as a team, clearly on the same page and had a stable partnership, supported more by Skate Canada? They were also new (2009) - they could only get better. Instead Skate Canada put all its eggs in Gilles/Poirier's basket, a guy who'd dumped his partner for someone of lesser skill, and a partner who didn't yet have citizenship (and still doesn't).
It's disturbing that SC treated it as a zero sum situation - as if any support/opportunity/promotion for teams not Gilles/Poirier must deprive Gilles/Poirier. Is there a tweet quota Barb must observe, so she saves it all for G/P, and for reminding us that though Scott and Tessa just posed "Young Parents" magazine sharing quotes about "The Terrible Twos", it's just #playingdressup? (J/k about the last).
I've seen/read of skaters at other Federations complain of being dumped, but these are mostly skaters or teams who have been around awhile and the Federation sees what it believes is a surer bet and leaves the old product swinging in the wind. That's not what we had here with the P/I and Skate Canada. We had a young partnership that was dedicated to delivering real ice dance and dedicated to skating their content, and skating it as one. We had clear potential and talent. Skate Canada knew/expected that Virtue Moir were gone after 2014 and here they had a team in it for the long haul.
I don't know what they thought the pay-off would be with Poirier that justified all of this energy to the exclusion of supporting other teams.
It's not valid to dismiss them as "Virtue Moir wannabes" - they weren't aping the cosmetics of that team - they were actually delivering complex content. They were long game. It was bizarre to me that not only did Skate Canada throw it all behind GP, but they behaved as this effort could produce instant gratification, which made no sense given the road his partner had to travel to reach the level he had of even his previous partner (with whom he finished, I think, seventh in the world at one point), let alone surpass those achievements. And meantime W&P were also knocking themselves out to improve as well.