The trouble happens during transitions.
This happens (image above) because Gabriella and Guillame's free legs are held at different angles, which is typical for them. He opens out of twizzle before she does, and clearly so, in real time. She's quick enough to catch up by the time they finish the turn, and their free legs hit the ice at the same time. However, him opening up before she does is very obvious. It's not because they're out of sync during the spins. It happens during the transition - she's behind, and it's because their angles don't match. Whoever has the issue, the other one should be matching it, but nobody bothers. Why should they. It's 10.0, L4 and + 3 regardless.
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| OK, this is a little obvious, but only if you look. They really do match most of the time when they're spinning (in this performance). By "match" I mean where they are in the rotation, not how they align their bodies. Because that never happens. She's got her way, he's got his way, but as long as they're both limpid and relaxed, who cares. |
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| Even some of their fans are calling on them to do a different sort of program, as if they have genius versatility they've been holding out on us. But I really don't care. I just want them to quit this shit. This is their go to move. I think it's over 50% of their choreography. Squat, squat, squat (which is, of course, a two-footed move. But they are two-footed "skaters") |
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| Ok, look at the angle of her working blade look at his. Look at her arms, look at his. Look at her free leg, look at his. Look at his carriage, look at hers. No wonder they're extolled for their unison. (And not to mention, what magnificent deep edges from both, am I right?) |
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| More twizzling. Here's what happens. He obviously catches his foot before she does. She doesn't catch her foot until she's rotated, so she pre-rotates this twizzle, not adding the feature until she's half rotated, but who's paying attention, right? These are their good twizzles. If VM had done these, it would have been yellow boxes for days. As I said, once they're spinning in this particular performance, they are as in sync as any other good team executing a strong twizzle pass, and she usually gets where she needs to be when the twizzle is underway, and when it ends. But transitioning? This keeps happening. But it's them, so let them set a WR. |
It pretty much takes any high level skill out of the equation, particularly using an inside edge, as they both do in the image further up. I once saw a grandfather on a train instructing his small granddaughter to plant her feet far apart when she wanted to stand.
Just looking at this performance called to mind Madison Hubbell saying that Virtue and Moir make "lots of little bobbles." Jesus, gaslighting is just a way of life these days, I guess, because her French friends have made a whole bunch of little bobbles their calling card.
Omg. I thought I was the only one obsessed about p/c's skating. I too have done slo-mo gif of their twizzles since they began their ascent to the top. It really bothered me then when they touted as equal level here with the shibs. Then when v/m came back.. Better yet, with all the know top ice dancers in general before their rise to the top over them. I think what disgust me most (till today) was when they won the worlds title with a mess of a FD performance. Felt like flinging my remote to their (smug) faces
ReplyDeleteYup WR record for every inconsistent performance all season. No shame
ReplyDeleteThe problem with calling them out is their scores. Their fans were "winning" just as Davis White's fans considered the argument won because the sport was on the side of the terrible skaters. DW fans succeeded in controlling the conversation, and PC fans try to set the same terms - it's ok to pick apart VM, even if you have to make stuff up or go after irrelevancies (such as music you prefer, and dance style you like). But ANY criticism of PC, as with DW before, created a toxic atmosphere and the critics would be driven off whatever forum they were on.
ReplyDeleteI actually think Gabriella hears/feels the music better than Guillame, and can make herself catch up or hit a beat when she has to, and you just pretend not to notice what she does before she gets there. She never ever acknowledges, in her body, her energy, or her face, when she's missed something. However, I think Guillame is no great shakes either, and his whole dancer posture is as pseudo as it gets. I don't know why his butt is jutting out to the other side of the rink whenever he bends his knees, I don't know why his torso is swiveled to the right when his hips and his working blade are going left. He has his arms up and his chest out, so it looks better or at least convinces some people more than a straight up and down, but he's very funky. Also any dude who likes to have his rear end six inches from the ice, choreographically, whenever possible during his program is worthy of suspicion.
My point about PC isn't that they get WR for inconsistent performances, but that their skating is fundamentally flawed, and their programs are full of filler bullshit to disguise the fact that they can't sustain. That's the problem with most fake teams - they can only do one thing at a time, and so when they need to change direction, or do any other transition, some sort of re-set or prop is necessary, and figure skating has been facilitating it. I could re-watch VM forever just going in and out of hold and changing holds, particularly when they "blindly" reconnect - they will break apart, go in different directions (Scott may twizzle while Tessa is gliding, and she goes from behind him to in front of him, facing away from him, and turns around to connect. No "reaching" no keeping in touch by having a hand on his arm - they just have that much control. They do their individual move and can reconnect without an assist.)
^Clarification - when I say any dude who likes to get into a squat whenever possible is worthy of suspicion, I mean in terms of his skating skills - his balance and control of his blades. I re-read that sentence and thought it could come off oddly.
DeleteI get what you mean :) I think your point was even more on point when you did the post on c/b. Exact replicated moves of p/c but without earning them the crazy ass scores. Yes, I also recall the d/w narrative all too well. No point bring that up with the d/w fans as they have shifted it to p/c now. Same bs. I wonder it's that whole mentality of rooting for the underdog. I'm all for that only if it merited one. (Not this one -again- in this case) Sigh I've resigned to the fact that ISU or Skating body will never ever change, even they (pretend) insist on making changes to rules. Good on paper but not good in action (which we all prefer to see)
ReplyDeleteThe only worthwhile change they made was making the names of the judges public, but otherwise they're defining difficulty down and taking skating out of figure skating. NO team can legitimately go from a legit 13th place to world champions with most of the teams ahead of them still competing at the same level and with the same quality skating. Has their skating changed? It has not. Their choreography has changed.
DeleteI was about to post the comment that I miss your skating analisis. As a non ice dance expert I need more of those, cause my untrained eye usually has a troubles picking those small details apart.
ReplyDeleteThanks. It's been a challenge to even watch skating since 2014. :( And of course, this blog has been lucky enough to have participants who can identify precisely what's supposed to be going on with the blades with a lot more specificity than I do. But, once you get the gist of what actual skating is, it's not nearly as arcane as sportswriters pretend. The ones who go "I know nothing about technique, but...." Look for edges and glide, look for two people skating at the same time (bad teams tend to take turns actually skating in non-element moves if they're even doing that and not swinging the woman around or sliding).
DeleteI remember one of the markers for Davis White was their choppy, short steps with very little - the word that describes it for me is "swing" or glide/flow. In one of their "Everything but the kitchen sink (or skating)" programs, they were facing each other "gliding" across the length of the rink in a face-to-face spiral, and dear God did their blades wobble, and wobble out of sync at that. But nobody ever really looked at their blades - it was all "impact".
One thing I always love to look at with Scott is when he is in a spread eagle, he is equally weighted on both skates and evenly balanced. Most men weight one side or the other - they're a bit lopsided and one knee and thus, skate is out of alignment. I love and adore the Shibs because they skate their programs with quality stroking, but as far as holds go they tend to do a simple side by side hold or they face each other in a waltz hold with their skates not terribly close together, whereas when Scott and Tessa are in any kind of waltz hold not only are their skates close together, but their lower bodies mirror each other's arcs. And they mix it up a whole lot more. Also, Scott's incredible efficiency when he and Tessa go in and out of lifts. This is one time when it's fun to not just watch the blades, but the hands. He's not clutching, supporting, propping, pushing - nothing. He might be a pivot point or assist, but he's not a crutch.
"Mirror" isn't the word really, more like a single piece that has been pulled slightly apart like a jigsaw puzzle, but you can still see that the entire length of each side goes together/matches and if they actually joined together, they'd fit perfectly.
DeleteI think much of the Shibs far apart skating is a choreographic reaction to the Gadbois open lyrical trend. They used to skate closer together with more complex holds prior to their last three FDs. IIRC, their 2014-15 waltz FD evolved to be more open over the course of the season, they kept tinkering with it and it appeared as if they realized P/C's style was what was getting rewarded. Also in SDs that lend themselves more to waltz hold, like 2015-2016 Coppelia, they really have some nice solid close skating. Not that they're V/M, of course, but I don't think you're giving them enough credit here.
DeleteWhen V/M had the Gadbois style of FD last season, their holds were unnaturally far apart in step sequences and it drove me bananas.
Yeah, I remember VM's FD last year, but I figure that was political, and something they had to do. "Look, we can do that shit too." Having answered that stupid question, they were able to do what they wanted to do this season.
DeleteI think the Shibs have been magnificent this entire quad, and I was so frustrated and pissed how predetermined it was that they wouldn't be considered for the podium.
You are right that it is probably feedback that has driven them to simplify their holds, but that also pisses me off. I have a darker theory than yours, which is they opened up not because PC style was getting rewarded, but because the sport didn't want another team blatantly showing up the fake teams.
Oh, it's incredibly frustrating. And I think your theory is likely correct - it's all kind of the same issue really, just hard to know to what extent things gets verbally spelled out to teams and how much they need to infer. But we know it is indeed that direct in some cases, with both V/M and H/B being open about it.
DeleteP/I were another team that got hit with the same problem - 2013-14 W.E. is one of the most "closed" FDs of the CoP era. And then they were handed three Gadbois open lyricals in a row. (Save them ditching their first one for 2015 Nats by going back to a mix of old material that showed their strengths better. But then they walked right into the arms of those who gave them a FD that was so widely trashed they had to dump it. Makes so much sense! Bizarre on its face, but P/I had reason to think SC would give them credit for moving to Canada. Of course SC had other plans and just wanted them gone, as discussed in the comments of your "Thank God" post.)
The Shibs' skating alone should have bumped them from bronze to silver, no matter the program, but I am thankful that Shibs have at least had Peter T and/or Marina & Co quality for their open lyricals. Judging by their SDs and pre-2015 FDs, however, they could be doing a lot more, and that's a shame.
"I remember one of the markers for Davis White was their choppy, short steps with very little - the word that describes it for me is "swing" or glide/flow."
DeleteI'm interested to know why you use the word "swing". I understand the glide/flow concept well, I just have never heard that term used in this context, beyond the technique of swing rolls.
So I could have sworn that P/C were in that reality show trainwreck and yeah, they made a cameo. It's actually kind of funny and metaphoric in hindsight. P/C almost crash into V/M during practice for TEB SD, Scott calls them out on their carelessness, and Marina and Scott take turns throwing shade. Then P/C skate over to apologize and they all hug it out.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBK1wr8aEwg
DeleteThe part the poster above is talking about starts around the 3:15 mark.
Speaking of Marina, I'm going to be so so so pissed off if more shade is thrown at her. She did not orchestrate Davis White's win in Sochi. She did her utmost to let the skating speak for itself with Carmen. She was always Switzerland, and that way the real skaters could win if the programs were scored properly, which is what I'm pretty sure she hoped and expected. At this point I even wonder how much she, and not the USFSA, were responsible for Davis White's programs. They did the same one every year, and at one point the USFSA nixed the music at Champs Camp (I can't say nixed the program, because it had to have been the same program). So I suspect the USFSA was all over Davis White and Marina just supervised the re-arrangement of their elements, and then she showed off VM's skating, but the sport itself, up and down the hierarchy and completely across, mandated Davis White's wins.
DeleteI also suspect that a big part of the Marina shade is more crap to promote Canada as better best and most wonderful. Yes, VM were with Marina for ten years but they were miserable and she was horrible. Look, they won another worlds and another Olympic gold with the wonderful Canadian husband and wife team, where they were loved and not abused!
That's how it reads to me. I would say that so much about the Canadian Fed sucks, with that chip on its shoulder, and its insularity, but it's not like we can look south to the USFSA and think it doesn't play in the back room.
I attempted to point out how poorly synched P/C are when it comes to their twizzles. Of course I heard all the excuses: It was the camera angle that made them seem off, it doesn't matter because they're allowed to be half a rotation off without being penalized, they're "slightly" off because of their difficult entries, etc, etc, etc (puke). It's entirely hilarious how even P/C fans admit they were slightly off but see no problem with the twizzles being scored level 4 with +3 GOEs.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, Tessa bobbles a turn in the circular step sequence (which goes unnoticed by half the panel and needs super slow-motion to detect) and they get crucified by the tech caller and get downgraded a full level.
Wardrobe malfunction at the Olympics? Full one point deduction for normal humans but it goes completely unnoticed for the gods that are P/C.
Truly, I believe V/M's win was a product of the judges not being able to add the scores fast enough to give P/C the gold.
Would you be able to link to where P/C fans talked about difficult entries? That's deja vu to an FSU poster insisting it was fine that D/W only did two twizzle because the "twists and holds" ahead of them made them more difficult than V/M's, LOL.
DeleteI thought it was the hop that made them difficult?!
DeleteLOL well yes, of course, but this was to deflect from criticism of *that*. IOW "V/M fans are stupid to think the hop isn't difficult, but anyways, it doesn't even matter because they also do this other stuff!"
Deletewatched moulin rouge a million times. just realized VM change direction going into their twizzles. i tried to give PC benefit of doubt. watched the FD again and honestly it's not even top ten. chock bates program better. DW better. they have no change of dance hold. I counted ten different dance holds in 30 seconds of VM free dance. that's what i can count. i really think that PC were slated to win of course and VM "got lucky" by getting all the attention after team program and gabriella's dress issue. in other words, all the wrong reasons resulted in VM winning but thank god they did.
DeleteSomeone on P/C uber thread at FSU:
ReplyDeleteThe best exemple being this talk about V/M having the best rhumba pattern of the field quoting "being 10 times better than anyone else's" But all year long, P/C kept proving him wrong. They clearly were superior than any other team but they are still the weakest skaters technically and can't do compulsories. If I'm not mistaken the pattern is actually what's left of the Compulsories really drilling teams on their technical abilities. P/C have always nailed the pattern whichever the SD rhythm, their Paso pattern was wonderful, both languid and sharp (yet another cliche, they can't do sharp movements, please again rewatch their Paso). Even last season when they had consistent issues with their levels, they always nailed the pattern. I'm convinced if the CD were to be back, they'd kill it.
Do you already have a post about this? If no, you should make one