This is interesting, although she fawns over Cizeron, who, IMO, is as fake a skater as ever faked (stroke stroke SQUAT. Stroke Stroke GET LOW. Stroke Stroke - TWIZZLE, then do something other than change direction or use your blades to arrest momentum. If he can change direction using his blades without some external support or non-skating assist, I haven't seen it). She doesn't address that not only do P/C's extensions not match, their angles don't match. She sees them as limited, though, and Virtue and Moir as superior, and seems to find P/C inferior mostly due to Papadakis not matching Cizeron.
BUT, then she goes deeper, and reports where the judges placed the rest of the field. It's a tire fire. One judge places a team third, the other places them ninth. It is like this all over the field, not just with placements, but GOE. Are judges even trained anymore, or is it out in the open that the skating is irrelevant when it's all about deal making? It seems to me that the belief the judges get together and review anyone who scores far outside the rest of the panel is myth. Everybody is doing what they want outside the podium, there is no standard, there's nothing.
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| Uh huh. |
Why are they taking a niche blog run by a crazy person as representative of the fan base? If I were a regular fan on the forums, I'd be insulted. I actually believe Virtue Moir/their media buddies would pretend fans doubt them even if this blog weren't around, but it sure is convenient for everyone that it is.
Did I imagine they did a 2014 reality show that Scott insisted was a documentary,? Why is he sitting there at a press conference acting like he and Tessa have kept their personal lives in a vault this whole time.
Where is the media getting the idea that fans think they're together when all fans deny they're together, and why is Scott saying he and Tessa might be able to open up their private lives if they retire, when we all saw him having his post-coital coffee at Cassandra's house, and when he told the world he was bringing two condoms to Sochi?
I think they're getting it from Scott and Tessa, who, despite their denials, obviously want fans to think they're together. They can climb down from the cross about it any time now.
Finally, please please please Scott and Tessa, RETIRE. Just for me. I don't care if you "open it up a little bit" or not. I don't care if you remain official platonic best friends for the rest of your lives. I just can't handle 2022 when it's gonna be Papadakis & Cizeron's "turn" to win gold even when you blow them out of the arena. Alternatively, I can't handle watching Tiffany Zahorski and Jonathan Guerreiro (13th place ice dance finishers in Pyeongchang) crowned world champions in 2019 after a year in Gadbois unearths the world's most superior skating skills that were heretofore invisible to the judges until Marie-France discovered how to package them. This is the first time in nearly a year I can visit my own blog w/out getting agita. Yet even though they won, I still get nauseous watching that brilliant Olympic free skate come in second to Papadakis Cizeron's load of crap - in fucking TES. I love that they won gold but the feeling is relief. It would be more joyous if the scoring weren't as sour grapes as it gets.
http://mhysaofdragons.tumblr.com/post/171121080340/steelerscdnfan-hey-mhysaofdragons-did-u-see
ReplyDeleteAt present I really couldn't care less. I know many want that fairytale ending. But in the end, I think it's their own private business. Whether they do or not, it is not like they'd share it with us anyways. I wish them luck (be it they will be with each other or with different ppl)
DeleteThey haven't kept it their private business. They have lied about the fans as a way to keep speculation front and center every Olympic cycle. They produced a reality show which they claimed showed the truth of their circumstances and it included Scott macking it up with a fake girlfriend. That's fine, but don't mock, disparage and, most of all, exploit your sincere fans for this nonsense. They also used to bait and switch. "Hey guys, it's me, Scott. Help me pick out a new profile pic?" .... Psych! "Hi guys, it's me, Tessa. . Scott and I are in Paris, a city that excites us and is close to our hearts. It's why we chose "Funny Face" as a free dance. We're going to walk the city and visit all the spots that say "Paris" to us. We're not saying there will be pictures, but maybe there will be pictures. Stay tuned!" FF to Scott in Paris taking photos of Jessica Dube posing a la Funny Face (actually the blog saw this coming, called it out, and the pictures weren't released until a year later. So Ha! on that one). And of course, "Tessa and I are going to Monaco. Just kidding, but seriously, we're going to Monaco for a romantic getaway." Cut to his mom's facebook where she's like a carnival barker telling people to come in and check out the Monaco photos, which are all Scott and Jessica. Since fans knew Tessa was there, that was plain stupid. Why not show her?
DeleteThey get off on this shit. On a lower scale, when Worlds was in London, Scott did a video promoting his uncles' restaurant, Shoeless Joes, in which he cringed from the camera lens and none of his relatives there to promote the place seemed inclined to actually face the camera and ask people to patronize their establishment.
My view is if it's their private life, don't whore it out, and don't use it for sport to fuck with fans. Nobody's up the Shibutani asses about who they are dating, because they conduct themselves like mature human beings and don't talk out of both sides of their mouths.
9:35, for the record, Scott and Tessa have been married for eight years and have kids together. Don't know about the fairy tale part, but the "together" part is a done deal.
DeleteThat said, Scott and Tessa backed off the shamming for the first time in their careers when they came back last season. Kaitlyn Lawes disappeared. I comment now, because for Scott to act as if he and Tessa have been oh so private is joke. They have squeezed every ounce of publicity they could out of the speculation, agitated it when it died down, and are constantly poking that ant hill. Social media is flooded with more talk about them, and believe it or not, that is NOT fan-driven, but PR driven, straight up astro-turfing as per the usual.
DeleteKnowing something of how the clickbait-y news sites work though, I don't think this most recent rash of Buzzfeed etc. stories about V/M's super sexy interaction is driven by V/M or Skate Canada. Stories at sites like this are chosen (either assigned by editorial or easily pitched by a freelancer) based on what's trending. V/M have been trending for the same reasons they became huge fan faves in 2010, only this time with a sexier twist because the programs are even more out there than Farrucas/Mahler were. Now, stuff like V/M's designated interview line-up with Jay & Dan and all that? Them for sure. But the online media landscape has changed so much since 2010 that I think it's important to note how much more is now outside their control, too.
DeleteAlso wanted to note that The Ringer -- where this blog, as well as Fan Forum, were linked -- is the site owned by Bill Simmons. It's pretty legit though a lot of its content is very silly.
DeleteSlate, another very well-known site, yesterday ran an incredibly embarrassing piece trying to analyze if ice dance scores were affected by whether or not partners slept together (a premise already undermined by the fact that skaters lie about crap).
There are a lot of big name outlets doing really, really stupid clickbait using V/M's names and photos and not, to my belief based on knowing this world reasonably well, with their direction AT ALL.
What I've noticed is the crap this year is completely skipping the romance part of stuff and going straight to orgasms and even more vivid descriptors. It's pretty gross.
DeleteThank you though. Relieved to have reason to believe this isn't their product. A lot of it is on repeat and could have been unearthed from archives for a re-churn recycle, only this time with a gross patina overlaying everything. One thing it's not, though, is grass roots response. Their fans are thrilled out of their minds that they prevailed to gold despite the best intentions of the judging panel.
DeleteDid I understand the Tumblr video correctly, that Scott says he has been in a committed relationship for two years, with Tessa's support? If that's true he's keeping it way more private than with Jessica, Cassandra or Kaitlyn. I think he is playing games and has been committed - to Tessa. I didn't realize a pregnancy could be not so obvious until I saw the way Kate Middleton's body reacted to pregnancies (very flat belly.) It's definitely possible. Was the crying baby in the interview background ever explained?
DeleteI haven't heard that Scott said he was in a committed relationship this time around - I did hear him say that for two years they had to focus on the Olympics (and he used the commitment word) and then mumble blah blah not sure what he was trying to say, and then at some point there was a segue into his remark that one reason to retire is to open up their lives a bit more. That's my takeaway from reading and semi-listening - my tolerance for relationship questions and answers is limited.
DeleteCrying baby was neither explained nor acknowledged.
He's been in a committed relationship to Tessa since basically puberty, and married to her since 2009.
I thought the same thing re Kate Middleton. Extremely narrow waist, no hips, just like Tessa. Tessa also has the wide shoulder line that can keep her looking slender, because we look slender if there's a straight up and down outline within our shoulder line.
And Kate Middleton, of course, doesn't use photoshop, as Tessa has extensively (there's a bunch of posts on that), and doesn't pretend an image taken months ago was taken yesterday, and still it's been very difficult to tell she's pregnant if you didn't know.
And speaking of Tessa's silhouette, I noticed at the Olympics that she was back to 2009 levels of slender - EXTREMELY slender, like a whippet, but lean and strong as well. Running up to 2014 there was all this bullshit about Tessa's weight. She had put on muscle she hadn't been able to put on before her compartment syndrome was thoroughly managed and/or overcome, and acquired much more power in her stroking. She and Scott have become a thousand times more powerful in their stroking since 2010, and I am guessing it's down to Tessa being able to use her legs as she wasn't able to when she was still challenged by CES, and also using her glutes. However, in Korea she was a reed - a very very strong one. I thought she looked otherworldly in the kiss 'n ' cry and mixed zone after the fd - not her beauty, but just the condition of her body as an athlete and as a dancer.
DeleteThat makes sense now about being committed to the Olympics, but it is obvious he is with Tessa, even more blatant with no fake girlfriend in the picture. I think having no fake girlfriend is their (messed up) way of admitting that yes, they are together. It's just understood that they are going to keep skirting it in interviews, using language like "unique relationship." It certainly is unique, because most married couples don't hide it for 8 years.
DeleteAnother difference with Kate is that the whole world knew she was pregnant and was looking for it. If you didn't know Kate was pregnant, she might look like any normal girl on the off season, until month 5 or so. If Tessa's body reacted in the same way, she would be able to be in public for several months without anyone knowing.
That's true, but she can also be in public for months with everybody knowing, but nobody publishing. When she paraded on the red carpet with Ryan Semple, this blog ran a bunch of photos where even her pregnancy was photoshopped out. i recall in particular someone going overboard and the silver chrome detail on a car in the background abruptly disappeared along the body of the car that was directly backgrounding her midsection. You could also go close and see pink pixel litter all around the area. They also liked to use paint or whatever it is that flattens a plane or makes it look flat. The tell is not just that the surface becomes very two dimensional (most pics LOOK 3 dimensional) but the color is a uniform tone. If you go close on any color that hasn't been altered, it's a mix of shadings.
DeleteThey are not hiding their pregnancies, not hiding their marriage or family. When some mainstream newspaper's online issue ran a picture of Tessa/Semple, one comment said, "Why is she on the red carpet with Semple when it's an open secret in London that she's married to her skating partner." Silence. It's all about not acknowledging, but they don't need to do anything else. She can go where she wants in whatever state she's in.
Since this is the first time since ... 2007? they've gone without a fake girlfriend or some rumor about Tessa, it's easy to guess they're just letting assumptions be made, but until they "open up a little" as Scott mentioned, assumptions aren't safe w/the two of them.
Unique relationship was always an obnoxious way to describe it. It creates mystery where mysterious don't exist, and it also sort of suggests everybody else is in a generic relationship, as one comment here once snarked. I they weren't lying, which they are, and we pretend that they were telling the truth, there are any number of dynamics that could describe their relationship, none of which are "unique". There's no such animal.
I agree for the most part in your post, OC. I think it's better for them to retire now while on high. (Not because I don't want them to but it's needed) Thier comeback has exposed a part of the judging system that needs addressing. The BS in those scores for SD as well as FD over these two seasons should get the momentum it needs to get ISU to get their asses up and do something. For me, that's the bigger legacy for v/m to leave behind.
ReplyDeleteIce Dance is the most corrupt of the figure skating disciplines.The scoring is beyond hopeless. The judging is beyond pathetic. Every Olympic cycle it is the same bullshit. In every run-up to the Olympics it is the same crap. The Grand Prix ice dance events in an Olympic year are a farce. No, there is only one solution to this charade and that is to boot ice dance out of the Olympics.
DeleteAnother 4 years of the judges holding up the inferior P/C will just kill this so called sport. The corruption and cheating is so ingrained so endemic that there is no way to clean it up.
It was in your face in the ice dance competition. Absolutely toxic.
DeleteYeah, I'm not following why people think this will be any different in terms of cleaning up ice dance judging than 2014 was. I didn't think the absence of D/W would solve things exactly, but I did think we'd get a bit of a breather - nope the fall of 2014 it was already obvious that P/C were the next juggernaut. I would love for the IOC to kick it out - I think that is more likely than the ISU reforming itself on its own - but I still think it's highly unlikely when figure skating is so big money-wise.
DeleteI thought we'd get a breather, and mostly the worst that would happen was I thought Chock & Bates would be installed as permanent National champs and maybe even contend for the world's title, since they are manufactured in a way that evokes DW. But then came PC with their small skating, two footing, crouching, swirling and squatting, and there it was.
DeleteWell, it wasn't until people started promoting the hell out of Gadbois that we could look at P/C as a consequence of the deals made to get D/W Olympic gold. I have never seen a sport behave monolithically before - there was literally nothing VM could do to win - absolutely nothing, and before long even individual skaters and unimportant coaches were on board bad mouthing VM and touting DW. The blog discusses this in greater detail in older posts, but when P/C were abruptly elevated from 13th place to World Champs, leap frogging over a dozen teams to the top, we could see what Skate Canada got out of selling Virtue Moir out, and what France got out of it as well. Canada desperately wanted their Canadian champs to be products of training by Canadians, or at least to be considered an elite ice dance coaching destination. Why the hell the success of expat Russian coaches burn their hide so much beats me, but it does, even when those coaches got Canadian teams wins.
DeleteSo if what happened from 2014 - 2018 is what it certainly looks like - the payout for putting DW on top in Sochi, was there yet another deal in place for 2018 - 2022? How long is this particular con, and how much David Dore's reach extend from the grave? This could never have been done without Dore being Canadian and his deep roots in Canadian figure skating.
I'm with you with those darn TES scores for them. Wtf? Brazen cheating, that's what it is. I hope this judging system will be broken wide open after this.
ReplyDeleteImagine that, 0.79 points was all it took that to determine who will win the gold medal. Oh indeed they plotted but not accounting to exact math. (taking away of highest & lowest marks) Still divine intervention or what? ;-P
ReplyDeleteOn paper, and despite P/C's ludicrously overscored short, it leaves the interpretation that P/C lost the gold and VM were up there by default. Mathematically, that may be what happened due to judge fuckery, but it certainly isn't what happened on the ice.
DeleteLast year, it was obvious that a clean VM were going to defeat PC every time. This year it was DW all over again - the judges were very willing to have mediocrity defeat near-perfection again.
DeleteIt is so interesting to me that the general audience narrative was obsessed with V/M and the Shibs and that's it. P/C's buzz was exclusively about her wardrobe malfunction. No one cared they skated to Ed Sheeran. No mass outcry that they were robbed losing to V/M with the magic of Moonlight Sonata. (And H/D, despite being American, despite the hard sell of their chemistry...less popular than the Shibs despite being third in the short.)
DeleteGeneral audience fans are not very good with singles or pairs. It's always the "this guy didn't fall and made good faces -- why did he finish behind to the guy who fell???" But, D/W's popularity in 2014 aside, they do seem to get ice dance a lot better than many longtimers.
It's scary in retrospect how close it was. Makes you wonder - was it intended to be a tossup that the judges were free to call as long as they gave P/C an insane FD score? Were V/M supposed to be given a little bit more of a buffer because the ISU was backed into a corner with their popularity? Or was V/M winning a mathematical accident?
DeleteThank heavens it worked out. The scores do spoil it a bit, but the gold really is something for V/M and all our sakes.
Goodness, Dick Pound and Jan Dijkema looked grumpy during the medals. I wonder if Pound was mad he had to pretend P/C were OK, and Dijkema was mad V/M had won, haha.
Yes, having the same thoughts - how did we get here, and what was really intended. For P/C to win, or to give V/M a chance, but make it just about impossible by scoring the French w/no breathing room no matter how they skated. In Sochi there was no chance. Here, the French had all the room in the world to be out of sync, off-angled, off-unison, not to mention just being the pedestrian skaters they actually are, while Virtue and Moir had to be flawless. Tired of it.
Delete1:43 - agreed about the Shibs. They're very popular. Is this something resented in the sport? I think there's a lot of resentment of VM that has nothing to do w/the subjects dealt with on this blog (non-skating subjects) and the Shibs don't have the in-sport vocal support you'd think such a decent pair of skaters would acquire. A lot of skaters pay tribute to the French. Just feels to me that a lot of people in the sport resent natural attributes because they may think there's nothing they can do to acquire them for themselves. They resent people who are gifted? Not just skating-wise, but looks, charm, MUSICALITY (that's not exactly common in ice dance actually, and the Shibs and VM have it), natural audience appeal? It's unfair somehow?
Delete@1:58pm you might be onto something there. Feels like a bit of both. They were backed at a corner after v/m's MR performance at Team Event (score was a measly 118) took by storm worldwide. Everyone was talking about and invested in them to win. If they were to skate at the IE against the French and scored hell of lot lower, pretty sure ppl would be outraged. Especially after v/m threw down heck of performance. So they fiddled with scores. Just enough to ensure that p/c took the lead. But then mathematics came into play here. So their plotting failed anyways because it turned out v/m still got ahead. And guess what too? The public is still puzzled how the hell MS won over MR. Now it's the journalists who are parroting on what's what. But not everyone is buying it. Sweet justice ...
DeleteOC, I think there are few powerful ones who are just envious of v/m because they could not produce one as great as them. Yes, they are blessed with good looks and musicality. But talent (coming from both equally) and that click is something that can't be replicated. It just comes from within and as they say, it's God-given. So, instead of celebrating in sincerity they'd rather tear it down, uglify it , push hard enough to make them go away (only v/m stood firm with forbearance and patience) It's just spite, is all.
DeletePeople also discount how much effort they put into that popularity. They do a lot of work on their social media and youtube
DeleteNot discounting it - the Shibs are very good and very consistent on social media. You could take them to a digital marketing bootcamp and use them as an example of doing everything right. Other skaters as well do a good job and don't click with the public the same way, and I think it comes down to skating and musicality as the difference.
DeleteOne more thing, if you go to news and quote archives from 1994, a lot of skaters are butt hurt about G&G's win. Of course they've all changed their tune since he died. One of their supposed biggest advocates, Paul Wylie (Just had to look up that name), made a pitch that the silver medalists skated with something very rare "abandon" and freedom, and he argued that rare feature should have been rewarded with gold. There are quite a few comments like that on the record. Now, Dmietriev was a big guy, and clutch as they come, but he had no posture, kicked up a snow plow's worth of snow when he heaved his partner in a throw (and also stopped dead to do it), they sounded like hockey players when they skated and if memory serves he had to run to catch up with his partner when he messed something up. Not dogging them, I love that team, but they were no G&G. Still at the time the air seems to have been redolent with sour grapes from people who supposedly would have gotten nothing out of M&M winning over G&G, but were just pissed to see G&G win. I think a Time or Newsweek article points out how many pairs skaters were complaining that G&G should have stayed retired and let the new blood take over, when much of the new blood was pushing 30 and G&G were still at the time only 22-26. So I really do think there is something in skating that at first admires rare talent, but then gets pissed off and resentful when it has staying power. Get off the stage and let me have my turn. Or something. Or just flat out resentment that someone not you has something you'll never have no matter what you put into the sport. Don't know what it is, but it's not a pretty look, and the sour grapes attitude is not often something displayed by people on the same plane of talent (unless their record or stature is in peril).
DeleteThe Shibs are great on social media, but I think it leads to some people unfairly dismissing them as being "too cutesy" and "not to be taken seriously." Side note - one of the things I find fascinating about VM is that they're just really smart people who are great at marketing and building a brand in addition to being brilliant skaters; the way they've played their off-ice relationship, of course, but also how Scott sometimes plays up his 'country boy/overgrown bro made good' personality and Tessa sometimes plays up her sophistication, love of fashion and her beauty (which, of course, match classic romantic comedy tropes. What a coincidence!)
DeleteI do wonder about the internal politics of the Russian federation back then, between not only M and M/G and G, but also between their two ice dance teams as well.
I don't know how much this is true among actual skaters, but many fans (including V/M ones) don't like the Shibs based on rumours from places like TSL that they're cut-throat assholes.
DeleteAnd also from back when Marina and Igor split, there were rumours that it was caused by the Shib parents, but I don't remember why.
Members of H/D's family seem to have a problem with the Shibs, but I don't think there's any other specific skaters that have shown themselves to resent them.
I've wondered if there's some resent from CB towards the Shibs. Four years ago, it appeared that CB were going to be the heirs to DW. They were for one season, but then the Shibs upset that apple cart.
DeleteAs for HD's family, I understand how they came to feel the way they do. I'm not saying it's right or rational, but people are irrational, even moreso when it's their kid. Just I understand how it happened. As a byproduct of the politics at the very top in the US and now internationally, for years now, Shibs and HD have been left to fight it out for leftovers. In 2013, after Marina and Igor split, Igor got CB as a consolation prize. Shibs and HD should have been one and two for nationals, 4CC, and worlds. Instead, once DW and CB were gifted, it left one spot. The same thing again in 2014. The fall of that season, Shibs and HD both well outscored CB internationally. I'd have to go back and look, but I think at nationals, CB's score increased by 30 points over what they'd averaged in the fall. Not so for Shibs and HD. They should have been the locks for the Olympic team. Instead, they were left to fight for the one leftover spot. HD stayed home again. Now, it's international level. VM belong on the top step, always. But there's PC, taking up a podium spot. So, again, Shibs and HD are left to fight it out for leftovers when both should have been on those podiums with VM this season.
The corrupt politics affect more than VM and more than just the very top. A held up skater effects everyone who got placed behind them who should have been in front of them. In the Sochi quad, for example, Pechalet and Bourzat were also victims of DW being held up. HD always seem to be in the position that they're the team that ends up being the one to miss out on something big because of being bumped down by an overscored team. Shibs may not get what they deserve in terms of placement, but they've still got a medal or, in the past, they still made it on to the team. HD have missed at this point 2 world championships, an Olympic games, a GPF medal, and now an Olympic medal. Instead of backing up and looking at the big picture, I think in their frustration, the family just sees what's immediately in front of them. Their resentment blame is ending up on the wrong parties because of that. There is also some resentment over the team event, with HD being the only national champions from any of the three teams that medaled who were left off their countries team. However, if what I've seen is true, then USFS handled that whole situation without any of the tact or sensitivity that should have been used in regards to telling a newly minted national champion that they were going to be the only national champions not skating in the team event. The family has a lot of valid reasons to be upset with how their team gets treated, but they're placing blame on the wrong parties.
As for VM, my read has always been that (even with the sham crap), they're well-liked as people by most of their fellow competitors, but there is a lot of jealousy for their talent. Then, there are the former competitors who are just petty. The TD's and Pasha Grishuk (well, she's going to do her, so expected on that one). I keep thinking about Steffi Graf's graciousness towards Serena Williams when Williams surpassed her old record, and this quote, ""I'm happy for her, I'm excited for her," Graf said. "It's cool that records are being broken, that's what they're there for. She's been phenomenal for the sport of tennis, it has been great to watch. I hope she does break it."" (https://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/25/tennis/steffi-graf-on-serena-williams/index.html) You don't see that kind of grace with the older retired skaters. I have half expected TD were backing PC because they didn't want to have to give up being thought of as the greatest of all time.
I don't think the Shibs cut deals and kiss ass. I do not trust a thing from TSL - they were one of the places that flogged the Tessa Virtue/David Pelletier rumor (or at least Dave Lease did on his blog) and promoted all kinds of other utter crap.
DeleteWhat I have noticed is the Shibs do their own thing and don't appear to play ball the way even Tessa and Scott play ball. When Tessa and Scott did that reality show, for God's sake even Davis White showed up for it, as did half of the skaters at Canton, and the coaching/training staff. Not the Shibs. I have wondered if the Shibs are disliked because they're not on the grift, and they don't pander to anyone who is on the grift, so there's no trickle down with them as there appeared to be when all of Skate Canada was up Piper Gilles' ass after she paired w/Poirier.
They can get the best coaching and choreographic input (ballroom dancers are expensive), go to school, travel, etc. That sort of privilege is often resented no matter how the fortunate beneficiary handles it.
I, also, thought the Shibs were thrown under the bus after they got bronze at Worlds. It was going to be Chock/Bates, and the Shibs needed to be held down in order to continue the fiction that DW were leagues beyond any other ice dancers in their country. Suddenly the points gap was 10 points or something? And never recovered after they were suppressed to forward the DW narrative.
I honestly think "Fix You" - the music, is what changed it. It was such a popular program with the twizzles at a point in the music everybody knew, the audience would get excited when it was coming. I thought their previous year's programs were great, and they were treated like crap. But along comes Fix You, and everywhere they compete it, there's a buzz and excitement. Since the teams the ISU is gifting with high scores are not appreciably better than the Shibs (and most are worse), I think the sport had to do something. It was CB that lost out.
I also think CB waited way too long to get rid of that hard ass approach to performance. Even though I hate talking about "performance". They needed something else to sell what they were doing.
Sour grapes from people you think are above that are always disappointing.
I was reading about the team event, and as I understand it, the Feds can only make two switches. When their singles skaters booted, they had others do the long programs (is that right) and so the Shibs had to continue on to do the long.
And what you say about politics fucking with placements - for example, there being only one spot for HD and the Shibs to fight for when it should have been more of a free for all- applies to VM's return. There's nothing political about their wins - all that's political is the razor thin margins when they're leagues better than everyone else - but with them in the mix it does push everyone else down, since everyone knows the French will be held up. Funny, though, that the resentment is towards VM and not the French. It might really be true what the French say - how many skaters have contacted them, encouraged by their overnight success. Well yeah, but it's a little too revealing about this so-called sport. If you jump 12 places in a year, it ain't your skating. It encourages people with mediocre abilities to think a magic program can be put together for them that will lead people to overlook what's going on from the ankles down. Whereas they'll never be VM, so let's resent them.
DeleteStefi Graf was very gracious to Serena Williams, but tennis is cut and dried. There may be the questionable line call, but replay takes care of that one. A win is a win, you can't politic yourself into it.
Figure skating is such a web of bullshit that people seem to resent when pure talent prevails. Pure talent is rarer than bullshit, anyone can bullshit, not anyone can acquire more talent. Even Marie France, while discussing Virtue and Moir's reworked ML, talked pure story. That's just nonsense, and it continues to hurt this non-sport.
When I think about it, and as much as I dislike their skating, one of the few teams that handled themselves appropriately was a pairs team, Duhamel Radford. They were not nearly as talented as many of the top pairs. Each one was as journeyman as it gets. They didn't even match well in their stroking, their body types, how they moved. But they squeezed every fucking ounce out of what they had. Duhamel re-worked her fitness, re-worked her diet, she and Radford trained shit they couldn't do until they could do it, they went for it no matter what even when it looked ugly or unorthodox - i.e., not technically pure - such as their throws. However, with their height difference I don't think they could do a proper throw (instead of an assisted jump) but they did it anyway. They knew the point system and bled it dry.
I think the fact that they took responsibility for themselves, tried everything, didn't whine, may go a long way to explaining why Duhamel seems like a happy person. They got good results, went further than either probably dreamed of ten years ago, but acted like athletes, not, I don't know, soap opera stars.
One more thing - I don't know how great Virtue and Moir's social media is. Tessa's output bores the crap out of me. I think I read an interview where she talks about the fun of mixing high end pieces with street wear - that's an observation taken straight from 1992. I think people just like her, are fascinated by her and her almost mystical level of talent, drive and beauty, and if the main way they can get access is reading her very bland social media, that's fine. The Shibs are better at synergy that is not straight up "Here's our sponsor, so here's a plug." They're much more consistent in their social media presence, while Virtue and especially more are extremely hit and miss.The Shibs are not static - and Tessa Virtue's social media is fairly static. She's got a bit of a mildly sideways sense of humor, which is nice, but that's about it as far as how she presents herself. The Shibs do what every athlete should do on social media, which the blog has talked about a lot - share experiences. Sure they touted Chibani yogurt and whatever else is sponsoring them, but they have a very clear brand and are engaged in a way that, sorry to use the word, shows a lot of integrity. (I.e., they didn't fuck it up by going on the reality show. They don't play fast and loose. Fans don't feel stupid engaging with them. Their boundaries are pretty clear but within the zone where they engage, they're extremely inclusive, and I think there's a trust factor fans appreciate.)
DeleteJust a correction -- when the Shibs won bronze the first time, Chock/Bates didn't yet exist (the third US team was Chock/Zuerlein). Then in 2011-12, C/B in their first season bombed pretty hard at Nats and Hubbell/Donohue were the #3 team and Kriengkrairut/Giulietti-Schmitt #4. There was for sure backlash in 2011 related to the Shibs and, I think, to Canton sweeping in general, but it wasn't related yet to Igor or C/B.
Delete"I think the fact that they took responsibility for themselves, tried everything, didn't whine..."
DeleteOh no, they've most definitely whined. I can't argue with how hard they worked hard to be the best version of themselves possible on the ice, but obviously that wasn't enough for them so they've definitely both had attitude problems. They have been complaining for years about how mean it is for everyone to criticize her ugly positions and their lack of matching. They've both continually patrolled Facebook shutting down any fans that dared criticize them. She's seemed like a different person here at the Olympics, maybe knowing it's the end of her career has let her stop worrying what others think of her. But a lot of their actions towards fans the last few years have been gross. And don't forget Meagan was one of the ones throwing shade when Tessa stopped at 2013 4CC.
http://www.thechronicle-online.com/2015/01/22/canadian-skating-pair-duhamel-radford-fuelled-by-naysayers
DeleteAs if criticisms of their "look" couldn't be valid and rooted in technical deficiencies.
Well, ok, the one thing I didn't know about was Meagan throwing shade at Tessa in 2013. So maybe her happy attitude has been an evolution.
DeleteHowever, I don't mind them being defensive about their own skating. Everything wrong about their skating and their technique was stuff they probably couldn't fix in the time they had. They made it work, got the points, continued to squeeze out every point. I get it. I suspect they're pushing back against that. They're not a team that, if they went to some kind of pairs intensive, could come back as a fabulously textbook team. That was never going to happen given the inherent limitations of the pairing. They were never going to be Shen Zhao, who, at the start, got on the podium being rough as hell, and ened up divine (despite the necessity of overlooking a couple of things like death spirals and sbs spins).
I wonder if some of the hard ass approach came from "What do you want us to do about it?" If the criticisms were aimed towards things they could correct, it would be different, but they had to build a Rube Goldberg contraption in order to compete.
I think the way they were going around shaming fans for criticizing them - not just via the media, literally confronting them on social media pages - was very inappropriate. And any athlete chastising fans for saying "mean and hurtful" about their athletic performance is trying to shut down discussion about them.
DeleteIf they were doing what you're describing, they wouldn't need to bring fans into it. Just be upfront about your strategy to work on the things you can work on, but don't chastise people for merely pointing out where you have weaknesses.
If fans shouldn't be criticizing things a team is incapable of correcting, then how are they supposed to be discussing who should be winning at all? P/C will never be V/M no matter how much they train, the talent isn't there. Teams shouldn't get a pass just because their baseline attributes put them at a disadvantage.
DeleteProbably a better analogy is W/P. They've worked to be the best version of themselves*, P/C haven't. But fans have every right to point out what they lack in natural ability vs V/M and even Shibs and H/D.
Delete(*Even if the best version of themselves was years ago at DSC. I think the coaching change was bad judgment, but I have no doubt they're still trying their best under the circumstances.)
Well, you are making good points. And I freaking hate "mean and hurtful." Why are so many celebrities defaulting to that one. That's an immature way to react to criticism. If the criticism is stupid, ignore it. If the criticism has validity, "mean and hurtful" seems to be the go to.
DeleteNo, I don't think Duhamel Radford should get a pass in scoring or anywhere else, I just think they played the game instead of whining about other pairs teams. That's really the gist of what I meant. Instead of whining that Volosozhar Trankov won unfairly, or bitching about whoever else was ahead of them, they had themselves in position to capitalize when other teams bit the dust. So I didn't make it clear that I am not aware (and am ready to be corrected) about Duhamel Radford throwing tons of shade at pairs teams who were and are so much better than they are. They played the hand they were dealt as far as that's concerned.
I think there was some level of public spat with V/T... might have been Max starting it by criticizing them... but I don't remember the details and could be wrong.
DeleteOh, Max completely called them out, and everything he said was spot on. What I can't recall is a clap back from Duhamel Radford.
DeleteNo formal clapback but it's pretty well assumed, based on the circumstances around this incident, that she was the one who revealed (off the record, but Dave L. doesn't draw distinctions!) that she and other skaters called Max "Maxipad." She's long been and remains one of TSL's major sources. But that's junior high level stuff, of course, rather than score/skating oriented.
DeleteCan you believe in FS forum boards ppl are actually talking about how good of technicians p/c really is? Especially justifying that poor excuse of an SD and brazenly saying if only the wardrobe malfunction didn't happen, they'd won??? Unbelievable ... At least with v/m they have the common sense and decency to work at their weaknesses year after year. Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words. If o/c work equally as hard as v/m do, probably they'd convince me that they're worthy at that level they speak of.
ReplyDeleteTabitha belbin suddenly understands again that quality of edges, musicality...are important for pcs. She was upset about ko short program score, not that she was behind Russians but because there was such a large gap in scores
DeleteI couldn't believe Tanith. She was literally reading off the criteria for skating skills and saying how Osmond had them... this would NEVER happen in ice dance commentary.
DeleteThen they took a look at her and Med's combos, freeze framed theme, looked at the edge, paused the video to actually measure the height of the jump, then posted the GOEs for both skaters. They did nothing of the sort to call out the outrageous judging of PC, especially in the SD. And fans who try are called insane on the forums.
Ice dance is the worst.
Delete@ 5:53 PM
DeleteNBC suits are responding to public opinion and advertisers' concerns. The ice dancing meme for their talking hairdos, which pushed P/C down viewers' throats, was a big fail. That's yesterday's meme. Today's meme is to go with the under rated Canadian. Hey the American figure skaters are out of the picture anyway and US corporations like Comcast-NBC need to play the anti-Ruskie card because ...well...because...Ruskies are evil and stuff. Tanith reads lines - nothing more, nothing less - and today's script calls for cheerleading the Canadian skater because the top competitors are ...shudder...the Ruskies.
I don't think the public gives two shits about the Ruskies. in days of yore, when ABC had the Olympics, both the network and the American public loved to fawn over Russian athletes like Olga Korbut and Katia Gordeeva. They could even go Romanian and get excited about Nadia Comaneci. I think NBC suits are just stupid, don't examine their assumptions, and have held and legacy-d the same assumptions for decades. They don't know anything about Olympic sports, really, especially figure skating, so they just flog the same themes.
DeleteTo OC - re: "They resent people who are gifted?"
ReplyDeleteNot sure about Canadian society but stateside USA, media and academia and public school educators have been very successful in manipulating people into thinking it's wrong to admire success and or innate smarts and or talents and or nice appearance and or a stable nuclear family unit etc etc. Individual achievement is viewed negatively these days, especially if it's a Caucasian, heterosexual, Christian male who does it. I think Western society will be irreparably damaged as a result of this upside down mindset.
A million times this. There's a lot of hate on VM for being too perfect, too beautiful, too genetically blessed, and I've even read that people are put off by how "heteronormative" they are.
DeleteWe're supposed to root for the untalented skaters who "work really hard" - as if VM don't - rather than being blessed with natural talent and who create classical shapes and forms with their bodies. DW and PC are more relatable, with their physical flaws and sloppier skating.
Then how do we account for P/C who skate as if they just rolled out of bed?
DeleteI find they fit the paradigm really well. Gabby is a beautiful woman but in unconventional way (the nose). Not the perfection of Tessa. She says she was into all kinds of naughty stuff when she was younger. She's complicated and French and loves Sartre. There's no heterosexual chemistry because he's not into girls, and I'm not bashing that (obviously can't help who he is), but there's this pansexual vibe that they have. I think it was Luca Lanotte saying in the NY Times that PC move as one being, that they don't play off the "man and woman" relationship like Tessa and Scott. VM have always been dogged for too many programs about being young and in love, and now it's that they're too sexual. PC are like these asexual, amorphous characters.
DeleteAs far as the skating goes, they were much more of a mess as juniors. So they came to Montreal and got reborn - anybody could do it! It's not natural talent, anyone can just go to Montreal and sing their programs and work with the life coach and be baptized world champions, no matter about the loose lines, the easy lifts, the bent leg (she was just born that way!), but not everyone can be born with VM's talent. If they put in the same hours at the same rink, they're just as good.
@ 8:03
DeleteFirst off, Gabby is not beautiful by any measure. I'm a female and I can express that Truth with no risk of chauvinism shaming. Naughty and Sartre and complicated have nothing to do with gold medal magic demonstrated by V/M or Torvill/Dean.
Most people do not doubt P/C's work ethic. The French Ice Skating Federation would not pick up the D/L coaching tab for deadbeats.
P/C could afford to perform in a dispassionate workman like fashion in the SD and the FD because everyone, including themselves, knew intuitively the fix was in. There would be no need for an arrangement with SR if P/C skated with wings of an eagle. Why P/C were the designated Gold Medal Chosen is the mystery.
Btw, it doesn't get easier for P/C in the next Winter Olympic Games. The Ruskies will be baaaaaaack. "Ethereal" is what the Ruskies do best.
I utterly hate how P/C were catapulted to the top and held there (undeservedly).
DeleteBut I think that Papadakis is pretty (nose and all). Her kind of pretty does not appeal to everyone, but it does appeal to some. What she looks like has no bearing on the fuckery going on in ice dance.
On a totally shallow note, I will say that Cizeron's giraffe neck and narrow-ish shoulders bothers me. But I consider that personal preference talking, because some people find him appealing (he does nothing for me).
I'm sure there are skaters who are jealous of various things coming easy to V/M, but to conflate that with the general issue of certain groups of society having easier lives and more opportunities due to privilege is really off base and kind of gross.
DeleteI think having characteristics that are most normative in Western society have actually helped many skaters popularity out of proportion with how they performed - certain USA ladies, for example. I think it helped V/M's popularity with the public the last couple weeks even though they also performed brilliantly. I don't think it's why V/M or G/G have been disliked within skating. I think it's just plain jealousy. I don't think it has to be complicated.
It would be better to focus on the fact that V/M are and G/G were objectively the best, and that people who ignore that want skating to be a pageant instead of a sport. And they should also be called out for skirting around the truth that V/M have worked as hard as any "hard workers", not to have their baseline abilities, but to push themselves to their full potential, unlike a Patrick Chan, for example.
Exactly that. Pageantry instead of figure skating sport. Tbh, v/m will go down in figure skating history (and remembered too) than the flavour-of-the-year/cycle by the judges/feds. All recorded for prosperity on how they skated and performed all those years. Nobody can take that away from them ...
DeleteIt could be just plain jealousy, agreed. G&G were in love, had once in not "a" generation, but several generations, talent and skating skills, chemistry and everything else on top of that. Scott is not "beautiful" but Tessa has movie star looks, and his more modest handsomeness sets her off beautifully, plus I think his incredible intensity, confidence and fire registers more powerfully when he's on the ice because he's not a conventional Adonis. I know when I first saw him I was checking out a video, and I was a bit disappointed when I saw him. Then he started skating and it was "Holy shit." Not just the skating, but the charisma. So it works for him - to have that burning confidence and expression in a physical package where you might not expect it.
DeleteP/C don't even skate as one, that's what kills me. They both do this limpid physical attitude thing, but they can't even get their angles to match, let alone their extensions, and she's often a beat behind.
"Caucasian, heterosexual, Christian male"
DeleteThe utter height of privilege. Who dislike people calling them out on it and are now complaining that less privileged people (minorities, LGBTQ, non-Christians) increasingly have a voice to push back. Who keep hankering for the good old days, when it was actually only good if you're at the top of the heap.
White people, especially guys, don't like it when they're not the center of attention. They feel threatened when they think the status quo is being upended. They like their position at the top.
DeleteOk, I'll amend my statement. Most white males feel threatened when their privilege is called out, questioned or taken away.
DeleteAlso, not all Christians are out to get non-believers. Christianity still has its fair share of crimes committed in its name. I can't tone down my cynicism because I've seen the damage it's caused (and is still causing) in my country, such as the erasure of native cultures, sexual abuse by its clergy, that's really happened. It's backward and patriarchal.
All cultures have sexual abuse and violence... do you really think African and Native tribes weren't raping women/children and killing each other at just as high of a rate (including ritual sacrifice)? And that people in third-world countries, no matter the religion, continue to do some of these things today? Many mass graves have been found in the US where tribes wiped each other out way before they were colonized.
DeleteThose white, Western, straight, Christian males (and females) are responsible for a lot of the good in the world, too. Western cultures are the ones that have been at the forefront of abolition, human rights, women's rights, gay rights, etc, not to mention all of the innovation in science, technology, philosophy, the arts, the printing press, modern medicine, etc. You would not be typing on your computer about figure skating if were not for them.
"Those white, Western, straight, Christian males (and females) are responsible for a lot of the good in the world, too."
DeleteTrue.
" not to mention all of the innovation in science, technology, philosophy, the arts,"
Definitely not true.
I hope we're all still alive on the day that same-sex pairs and ice dance couples become mainstream in skating, and that they share the ice with the "traditional" man-woman couples.
DeleteThere's no reason why that shouldn't happen, 11:29PM, and I also think the costuming for women in singles and in dance and pairs could use some variety. What we've got now is pretty much shorter-length pageant costumes. Sequins and beading. Many in the sport would argue that without the costumes, figure skating wouldn't be as popular. I'd argue that with those costumes, it's another thing that makes figure skating suspect as a sport - particularly as regards what is expected of women.
DeleteYou've got it! Heteronormative is a numero uno taboo in the USA/Canada/Europe. Contrast this Alice through the looking glass thinking with the "old school" reactions of Korean/ Japanese/ Russian Olympic fans to talent, beauty, artistry, heterosexual passion demonstrated in ice dancing. They were silent unmoved by P/C. They roared with delight when V/M were on the ice because they were unashamed to identify with the emotions stirred by V/M in their hearts and in their imagination. Consider that the ancient Olympic games were dedicated to the Olympian gods and the winners were revered in poems and statues. There were no pity points for costume malfunctions. On one skating forum a V/M fan was bullied for not appreciating BOTH V/M and P/C. Equivocation is now the order of the day.
ReplyDeleteAnd PC's stuff is "deep" because they don't do that. Even though they do the same FD every year.
DeleteThe VM chemistry seems to make certain fan groups deeply uncomfortable, and those fans aren't prudes. The one moderator on FSU started several play-by-play threads throughout the season with OTT titles referring to Tessa's genitals, all as a joke. And these fans, who are all sexually liberated European types, all are grossed out by the idea of the cunniliftus.
V/M's magic is based on universally understood sexual attraction between a man and a woman. It's written into our human procreative DNA. That's why their performances strike an emotional chord within all of us. V/M put primitive sensuality into a beautiful artwork with a gilded frame. It's romantic not gross.
Delete"Deep" as defined by NYTNBCMSNBCABCXYZ is a sterile clinical P/C performance. It's no wonder that DG had to strike a quid pro quo deal with SR. He knew that the general public ( outside of France and Quebec) would not buy what P/C was selling. To paraphrase Erin Brockovich: "The rubes don't know shit about shit but they know a masterpiece from a forgery!"
The funny thing about the "cunniliftus" is, IMO, it's the thing that started the ball rolling re: V/M going viral! I don't know which media outlet first came up with "they had to change the lift to a more family-friendly version", but the story picked up steam and soon enough, it was all over both social/internet and mainstream media. Sex sells, and people got very curious about the (rumored) face-sitting.
DeleteThen people got wind of the fact that they were skating to Moulin Rouge, and despite the numerous complaints by both V/M and non-V/M skating fans, a lot of the general public loved that movie, and their Nationals FD got big traction (and views!) when Baz Luhrmann himself posted about it.
Then the casual, tuning-in-only-during-Olympics viewers actually got to see them skate. First, the team event SD. It was very well received, even Keith Richards' wife tweeted about it. The casuals, clueless as they might have been about ice dance, could still see how excellent and superior V/M were. Lather, rinse and repeat for the TE free dance. Everyone (except P/C fans of course) was now obsessed.
I don't know if whoever was responsible for trying to drum up interest in V/M via the "scandalous" lift could have foreseen just how viral things would turn out. You can't easily force things to be popular on the internet. V/M went viral *genuinely*.
As for the (mostly) Korean crowd reacting to V/M, I think a big part of it is that they are familiar with V/M as being part of Vancouver Class of 2010 along with Yuna. They got invited a few times to her shows, and she has gone on record that they are among her favorite skaters. The more knowledgeable Korean skating fans would also have been familiar with the scoring shenanigans in Sochi, and might have been sympathetic to them considering that Yuna also got the short shrift there. Finally, the Korean fans are very, very familiar with Moulin Rouge via the Roxanne tango, because Yuna used it for her senior debut SP, and even resurrected it years later as an exhibition.
The French and their fed couldn't have foreseen how much skipping the team event was going to cost them. It was sound strategy (considering that TPTB were going give them gold), but V/M gained a LOT of ground/publicity/goodwill because of their exposure. So much, that when V/M gave the skate of their lives during the individual event, the judges couldn't shave off as many points as they might have had in other events, because there would have been outrage in that arena. The French fed also could not have anticipated that their country's judge would not be drawn for the free dance, TPTB's efforts weren't enough. V/M still won in spite of that panel.
I say the lift helped V/M clinch their gold. V/M even restored it for their epic final free dance (who cares if it was because it scored better than the amended version of because V/M wanted to flip the finger at the naysayers). The haters at the skating forums can bitch all they want about it being ugly and vulgar. Moulin Rouge will now be an Olympic skating routine for the ages. Suck it.
Edit:
Delete"better than the amended version *OR* because V/M wanted to flip the finger"
Also, how funny is it that while you have all sorts of risque lifts in ice dance (e.g. hand between thighs, awkward positions that end with a woman's face opposite her partner's crotch), it's V/M's lift that got the scrutiny from the skating fans. Just goes to show that lots of people have hang-ups about oral sex (and of course, another reason to hate V/M).
That lift though lol I don't understand how it could get anyone's knickers in a wad. His face was on her belly, not like she got oral sex. Also it certainly not close to c/l's infamous crotch lift. Now that rose eyebrows(oh well, probably excused because they're after all European ;-P) Looking back, I don't know where v/m heard rumors that judges will not like it. That modified lift earned them lower marks at TE. All season long that original lift has been marked high. Anyways, so glad they went back to original and ... thankfully that section was marked as it should.
DeleteTatiana Tarasova said during the FD that she advised Virtue Moir to go back to the original lift during practice before the individual event.
Delete"V/M's magic is based on universally understood sexual attraction between a man and a woman. It's written into our human procreative DNA."
DeleteI'm heterosexual and a fan of ballroom dance, so I personally love man-woman styles of dancing, but there's nothing wrong if homosexual people don't relate to that, and one can also appreciate the ying-yang aspect of dance partnerships without having to see it in a sexual light.
Commenters here don't seem to realize that they're falling into the subjective artistry bullshit themselves. If P/C in all their pansexual artsiness skated like V/M, and V/M in their heteronormative steaminess skated like P/C, P/C would unquestionably deserve to be the victors. V/M deserved to win because of their insane skating and dance ability, not some grand triumph of man-woman sexuality.
I think P/C's "art" was pretentious and of poor quality, so I don't blame the public at all for not taking to it in this case, but their actual flavour or whatever would be fine to appreciate more than V/M's if it was developed to a similar artistic level as V/M's. And the artistry doesn't matter at all when there is such a skill difference between the two teams.
I agree that the lift controversy + doing the team event alone likely had a huge impact on the outcome. I think V/M didn't have a chance without that, unless P/C fell or something.
@ 8:48 AM "but there's nothing wrong if homosexual people don't relate to that,"
DeleteThe sensuality of V/M's interpretation of Moulin Rouge was beautiful. There was no promiscuity or alternate life style choices being promoted as is the case in TV series 24/7/365. Children and teens could/did watch V/M's FD without necessitating parental control filters. 95% of the general populationI related to the artistry ( not just 1 fleeting athletic move) in V/M's performance.
The people who do not appreciate the story V/M told, missed a very special experience and it's on them - not the rest of us. Frankly I, for one, don't give a d**n. I'm soooooo tired of faceless Hollywood executives and gov't bureaucrats and SJW academics picking for the rest of us what we must think or see or like.
Can't 95% of us be allowed to enjoy 5 minutes of the happy world of our childhood dreams, where the main characters are a handsome Prince and a lovely Princess? Right now rec centers/ice rinks USA wide are being swamped with requests from parents and their children for ice dancing lessons. V/M's gave all of us gifts of joy and promise we've missed in today's tacky sordid reality - i.e. an innocent sparkly world for our children and for us adults, memories of our first love. Who could possibly see anything "wrong" with those precious gifts?
"Commenters here don't seem to realize that they're falling into the subjective artistry bullshit themselves. If P/C in all their pansexual artsiness skated like V/M, and V/M in their heteronormative steaminess skated like P/C, P/C would unquestionably deserve to be the victors. V/M deserved to win because of their insane skating and dance ability, not some grand triumph of man-woman sexuality. "
DeleteBut the original poster at 5:33 wasn't saying that VM are better or deserved to win because of these factors. They were responding to a specific comment that OC made about whether gifted people are resented. This particular thread of conversation is about how the skaters are perceived culturally and not about the skating technique, which VM have all over everyone else. I agree that if PC were better skaters than VM with more difficult content than VM, they should win, regardless of their themes (and I actually do like some of their FDs, probably more than others here).
Tarasova expressed her love for VM in last cycle too. She was one of the few fighting the dw narrative then.
DeleteI think Tarasova flip-flops on her love for V/M. Or at least she knows V/M are superior but politics comes first so sometimes she plays up rivalry. It's Averbukh who called out P/C skating to the same program no matter the music. They were once commentating and some bullshit metaphor about painting was used. Tarasova said (P/C) was like Impressionist painting (style?) or some crap like that. Averbukh said, "It's the same painting."
DeleteIt sounded like Tarasova wanted P/C to win, but after V/M short dance in the individual event she said "I don't think this will be beaten". And during the FD she said "they're not gonna give it away". In Sochi she said that V/M SD is a masterpiece and the step sequence will go down in history of figure skating. She thought they should have won the short dance, I don't know what she thought of the FD because she left before DW skated.In a recent interview Averbukh said that it's divine justice that the costume problem allowed V/M to win, and that they should have won in Sochi. In other interviews he also said that he feels no chemistry between P/C and called their dancing asexual. Also Maxim Staviski has always preferred V/M over D/W and P/C. This year he said that he prefers V/M free dance. He actually never liked P/C and in 2015 he said that he likes Ilinykh / Zhiganshin FD better.
DeleteI think a lot of the supposed aversion to VM's sexiness is just reverse snobbery from people who don't know fuck all what they're talking about, so they pretend to favor what they think is abstract, unconventional, new. These are people who would love it if every team skated a program where the guy was a clock and the girl was a frog, or some theme like that. My own theory is most skating fans aren't musical, can't tell the difference between musical skaters and none musical skaters, so they can't feel the glide when they're watching good skating, can't feel the sweep, the counter movement, etc., so they get caught up in all kinds of pseudo cerebral bullshit instead to compensate for the inability to appreciate basic rhythm.
DeleteWhile there are shippers galore on the internet, there is also a strong faction that has a default objection to romance, and they're very vocal. They see romance as cheap or a crutch. This again, IMO, is bullshit pseudo-"intellectualism" and they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
I see it on forums where TV shows are discussed. For example, a show starring a man and a woman who are at a similar level of desirability in terms of looks, who hope some day to find "the one", who are age appropriate vis a vis each other, who work together, and have fabulous chemistry. There will always be a core group bitching "Why can't men and women on these shows ever be friends." And I always think, shut up you fucking idiots and get a life. In this scenario in real damn life these people would get together. That's how it works. 1. Available. 2. Attracted. 3. Compatible. 4. Age appropriate. 5. Each hope to find romance.
While I love the programs done by VM, and the man/woman stuff is of course what they should be doing, I don't think "asexual" is a valid skating critique. There's enough to dislike about P/C without that sort of thing. Chemistry is not a critique either. But all this sort of discussion just emphasizes even more how ice dance shouldn't be an Olympic sport - or even "a" sport. It's an activity, a pursuit, like ballroom dancing. It can be competed, but not as a sport.
That said, go Averbukh because of course he's right about Sochi AND the costume.
DeleteWhile all of social media was in a frenzy over VM's team event skates, all I saw were the scores, and I could see the writing on the wall.
WTF is your problem, 10:50? Only LGTBQ-phobic people let the fact that people with "alternative lifestyles" might enjoy different romantic portrayals bother them.
DeleteI'm disappointed no one else here is calling out this person's attitude.
3:56 continued- you can think it's silly that people would be against V/M on the basis that they prefer pretentious unconventional themes, I agree. That's different than championing V/M as some example of moral wholesomeness.
DeleteBut the pretentious themes aren't unconventional. P/C's programs are conventional as hell. That's a poor man's Klimova Ponomarenko (1992). That's lyrical "contemporary" an amorphous theme incorporating ballet-like upper bodies but without the discipline of the ballet vocabulary. There's also "contemporary" with the crouching and some of the shapes. Same with "abstract" themes that skaters have been doing forever. Hell, Torvill and Dean did one where she was the cape (one of the most ego-centric ideas he ever had, IMO). The ridiculous part of all of this is the programs these people claim are avant garde and innovative have been done to death for decades. But, this type of thing makes it easier for a viewer to "see" the program if they are the sort who have trouble seeing or don't care to see the actual skating, and the musicality issue goes right past them.
DeleteThis Olympic season I have never in my life seen so much emphasis in the media and from "experts" about story and style. Watched the NBC video with Tanith's commentary on VM's fd. Maybe they cut some stuff, but literally the only comment she made was how well they are able to vary the dramatic intensity while projecting clarity with the characters and story they are telling.
With this sort of unabashed emphasis, throwing the actual skating out the window, the sport is continuing its trend towards hopeless.
3:56 here - I think this whole discussion is ridiculous tbh, I agree with you that the skating is what matters. But the topic of this thread keeps going back to people disliking V/M because they are seen as heteronormative and conventional, which is somewhat what you were saying above yourself, OC. Certain posters (not you) are framing it like heterosexuality is something that is discriminated against in society, which is a gross thing to be saying. That's all I was addressing.
Delete@5:55am I don't get where you coming from with this bashing of heterosexuality in all this. The recent topics discussed in this blog have always emphasized on the oversight of great skating skills, questionable judging and possibly the corruption of the skating Union/Feds powers that be. We've been addressing this over and over. Nothing about heteronormativity posts indicate "fans are fawning over alternative lifestyle". It's skating for goodness sake and probably one of many still conservative sports ever to exist. We do know of homosexual skaters who participate but we don't go around bashing them. Adam Rippon, Guillame Cizeron are openly gay. But It's still a man-and-woman in pairs or ice dance. For the moment, it will probably continue to be that way. Yuri on Ice is about the only thing one can find and expect figure skating to break the norm.
DeleteOH, probably not a place to say this too about this. But If one were to go on high moral principle or base a person because of his practice of religious beliefs, he or she wouldn't engage in exposing oneself to gyrating to provocative music, wear immodest clothing or display that raw sexual tension since it's clearly stated that those things are reserved to be done privately. Right? So no, figure skating isn't a place one can give a nod and say it's a moral and spiritual bound sport. It's just this - a sport where anyone do as they please within the context or regulated by the skating Union/Feds. For it is They who determine what music one can dance to, clothes style they can wear and moves they will accept in a program.
DeleteI'm not bashing heterosexuality. I love V/M's dynamic myself. I'm not saying skating should take up the cause of focusing on other types of sexual portrayals.
DeleteI'm simply saying posts like 10:50's above have disturbing undertones. That poster quoted another post that pointed out that there was nothing wrong if homosexual people don't happen to relate to the sexual chemistry of V/M, and then they proceeded to talk about how wonderful it was that V/M's performance wasn't promoting alternative lifestyles, and complaining about Hollywood executives and social justice warriors pushing that promiscuous stuff on them.
There's nothing wrong at all with preferring heternormative artistry. There is a problem pretending that it's a universal reaction, that those who don't prefer it are defective, and that those people are ruining the fun by putting out there things that cisgender heterosexuals don't relate to themselves. Which is what 10:50 (and I assume 7:17 and 12:12 above that) appears to be saying that.
7:12 is 3:56/5:55 and not 6:59, to be clear.
DeleteBut if 6:59's point is that it is odd to be so pleased that MR is suitable for children given the suggestiveness of certain moves, I agree. Another reason why I interpreted 10:50's post to have homophobic undertones.
@ 7:25 AM
Delete"homophobic undertones"
Get over yourself, pal. Homosexuality is yesterday. Trans is where it's at now. Yesterday's meme was "born this way" but today the trans meme ( which apparently is uber popular with millennials we're told) is that gender/sexuality are fluid and subject to personal choice/whim. In other words, gender is a state of mind on any given day. Woot, woot! I say give me more change - 8 years was not nearly enough. Anywho, one wonders which group will win that identity cat fight. Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen...oops, I mean it and it or is it cis and cis.
As a side note, I feel sad for African Americans, who lost their battle to LGBT. They are still smarting over the fact that LGBT had the chutzpah to compare themselves to former slaves. But hey, what do African Americans know about "phobia" and civil rights and stuff. Ditto for North American Indians. Poseurs as compared to LGBT....not....
Furthermore, on the subject of "phobia" since you inserted that shaming tool cliché into the thread and opened the doors to further discussion, did you know that according to GLAD, as of 2015, 28%+ of prime time broadcast and cable programming in the USA was devoted to LGBT themes...even though LGBT are estimated to comprise 3.4% of the population? If that shows "phobia", other identity groups want to enjoy part of that "phobia." What % of dedicated LGBT prime time TV programming would it take to stop LGBT fretting about mythical "phobia?" 50%? 75%? 99%? Inquiring minds want to know.
And fyi, MR was rated PG-13 when it was released in 2001. In the ensuing 17 years of in your face sexual messaging and manipulation in media and in public schools, by comparison MR is an innocent fairy tale love story that could easily earn a General viewing classification today.
V/M presented timeless themes of heterosexual love between a man and a woman and love lost and deep sorrow. It took up just 6 minutes of prime time programming but even with that puny amount of time, it seems noses got pushed out of joint when people around the globe and on this thread expressed their appreciation. Oh my we can't tolerate delight about heterosexual themes in ice dancing artistry. PSHAW. It's surely an expression of suppressed homophobia. No Shirley, it's unadulterated joy at being entertained by a performance with basic themes that 95% of the population identity with and which are not laden with identity politics messaging. Six minutes - just give us that small token, why don't you, without sullying our memories of that outstanding performance with bogus pretense that you're mind readers and know our " true" intent and the "hateful" reasons of we were touched by V/M's interpretation of MR music.
Data around the 27% mark is about the shows being inclusive. In other words, they include LGBTQ characters and plotlines. Not a measure of how much subject matter was devoted to those themes. Percentage of LGBTQ characters is around the 5% mark.
Delete@7:17
DeleteKorean crowd roared because they love V/M. They know V/M from association with Yuna, and Moulin Rouge. Simple as that.
Heteronormative is practically still the default in mainstream media. The people who think it's taboo are those who are uncomfortable that more and more people are asking for a more diverse representation of race and sexuality in TV and film. Real life is diverse.
DeleteI think it is pretty fair to say that relationships alone are complicated, business relationships can be complicated, and certainly if you look at the life of pairs figure skating thru the years, they are complicated. And then the politics of figure skating at all levels is complicated (I'm including training in the rink with the same coaches as your main rivals here).
ReplyDeleteStarting from there, you have two kids who have no idea where things are going, and are growing up in the manner that they did. They themselves have said, 'It's complicated' and how could anyone doubt that. What relationship isn't?
Anyways, I have no idea if what you are saying about them being together is true or not. But I could totally understand the weird situation that they have been in thru the years and the delicate balance it would take just to keep things level *internally* between themselves with all of the noise around them, never mind trying to keep the public appropriately informed about the status of things between them. Given that, I understand Scott's answer yesterday: none of your business!
Is this different than when they did the reality show? Of course! Could it be that they have learned from the past? It doesn't seem like things were champagne and roses for them after Sochi, so maybe they learned something and have tried different things.
One thing I do know for certain: my years of life in my teens thru my twenties and early thirties were the most tumultuous without being in the public eye and dedicating my life, really, to someone else over a shared Olympic dream. I can't imagine what it must have been like for them to get thru it all and to have, hopefully, a spark of what we see on the ice, between them off the ice.
It is normal for the message they give out thru the years to have changed, because it is completely natural in a process like the one they have gone thru. And while I don't say this as scientific fact, I don't think it is 'imo' either, I'm old enough to have learned that in the list of the few things we can really know is that we don't really know, and everything changes.
Scott and Tessa got married in October 2009 when she was 20 and he was 22.
DeleteSure, but that doesn't mean that things aren't and haven't been complicated.
DeleteIt really doesn't matter what they say or admit to the media, people would be all over them regardless, and if the media was all over their marriage, uff, that would be very difficult for them.
That, unfortunately, is the norm. Celebrity marriages are hard, on-ice partnerships are hard. It comes with the territory? Absolutely. Have they manipulated the public? Maybe (you would say yes). Have they come out of this together and intact? It would appear so.
What would you have fought for?
tl;dr: admitting they were married would have put the focus on their marriage and on-ice partnership. Instead they have deflected that focus to something that almost seems to have helped their bond.
The media knows they are married, as does a substantial segment of their fan base. Most fans just think it's rude to admit out loud when VM were so busy lying. I have no actual issue with their lying, since many teams do it. My issue is how they treated fans - proactive bait and switch, mocking them, setting them up. When fan speculation would die down and focus on the skating, here they came to stir the pot and get fans riled up. Furthermore they continually lied about fans, pitting themselves against fans in a phony dynamic, with the assist of a complicit press. The fans were up their ass, they claimed, when the reality is that since 2013 the fans shifted mostly to skating. They claimed fans were critical of "Carmen", when every VM fan who made their opinion known adored Carmen. It was like shooting ducks in a barrel. Why did they act that way other than to agitate fans and then point to the agitation as justification for whatever lie they were peddling? Even when fans stopped being reactive and defaulted to more of a shrug, "Oh well, that's them. Let's talk skating." they continued to crap on them. I don't like their sanctimony about privacy when they're the ones constantly lifting their skirts, while fans are like "That's ok. But can your reality show show us a little bit about what it's really like to train ice dance at your level? No? Just a lot of pop psych and VO's to the camera? Ok then."
DeleteIOW even if the truth was admitted (as opposed to "known" - it IS known. Admitted is the distinction), the focus would be where VM wanted it to be. The media would cooperate. How much can one speculate about a married couple anyway?
DeleteAnyway, that is just my opinion. My real focus is the way they've treated their supporters.
Yeah, I look at the result right now - that they seem happy and intact - and look at many other partnerships that did not end that way, and can't help but think that whatever they did, it worked; at least for them.
DeleteOn the other hand, it might have been useful for them if fans *did* focus on the skating, but we all know the judges don't. So maybe this worked in that facet too, for them.
"When fan speculation would die down and focus on the skating, here they came to stir the pot and get fans riled up."
Yeah, I don't think there are too many fans schooled in what skating really should be, to be good. Even on the so called skating forums, people do't seem to have a clue.
These two are part of a much greater machine and it is why I prefer to play sports than actually watch them on TV. Industry has taken over sports, fans bring the money. One could argue that the fan reaction helped save the day for VM at this Olympics. Did they play the fan game? Sure they did. Did they have any other choice? Not really, not if they want to compete.
Its sad that sports have come down to this, but that's what it is. I mean, there are whole newspapers in Europe that exist to stir the pot for a given soccer team, e.g. Marca and Real Madrid, AS for Barca. Full of lies, positioning and other subtle deceits. Does it suck? Yeah, but if you want to play the game, you have to play the game.
Yes, the fan reaction helped save the day, I believe, because fans understood the skating after being instructed for years to ignore the skating. Nobody in skating wants fans to understand skating, and yet VM fans persisted in becoming increasingly excited about their skating ever since they emerged from 2010 as more powerful, dynamic skaters who could now add a conspicuous athleticism to their programs (that was supposed to be DW's bailiwick. What that really was, was DW weren't refined or known for edge work, so by default, they had to be athletic and fast, right? It's always the way. "Well, this time isn't THAT, so they must be this." What if the answer is they're neither and VM were both?)
DeleteVM's shamming wasn't part of some commercial sports machine/entertainment complex. At its worst it was home grown and managed obnoxiously by their families and friends who played a mean girls game with the most gullible and earnest and self-deluding sector on earth - fans. It was shameful. Virtue and Moir became more and more part of the matrix you describe from about 2013 onward - I think what happened with Carmen was a wake-up call and subsequently they have become willing fodder, but when it was more or less managed by themselves and their fed, they were awful. Awful. And the reality show was aggressively awful in the specific ways it was pitched towards fans. There's a reason Scott bad mouths the reality show after he and Tessa promoted it looking all pinched face and insisting it was real. It wasn't necessary. You can play the game from a different angle, but they chose having it both ways, but also insulting and disparaging the people who supported them, and, at several junctures, humiliating them.
As far as the team event went, I remember hoping it would play in their favor that they participated, because for one thing, the scores would smoke out the judges' intentions, which it certainly did. While the internet went crazy over the skating, the judges low balled both programs and penalized invisible missed key points, just as they had done in 2014. Another bad sign was the whole lift bullshit - last year there was nothing about "oh this needs to be changed, it's too this or that." When noise started coalescing around the lift this season, it was a bad sign - the trip wires were being erected again. However, in some kind of collective consciousnesss way, I think it registered that Virtue and Moir performed two long programs and two short programs, while the French were precious and saved themselves for their golden moment.
DeleteAnd still, I think they tried to give it to the French. Maybe the only thing that prevented it wasn't the mistake, but the judges could not yellow box Virtue and Moir. You know they wanted to. Maybe it was the reaction to the team event that stopped them. That was the only good thing that happened in all of this.
^Some sort of auto-correct on my keyboard is turning "team" to "time" etc. I am just now noticing it's happening a lot in my comments.
DeleteI stil can't get over the scores for v/m's clean slate SD at TE. It was rated lower than the French's SD at IE. That was weird
DeletePoor kosers from Canada, I have so much laugh reading your shitt posts. IF NOT THAT DRES ISSUE, you could FORGET ABOUT GOLD.
ReplyDeleteYOu hardly won, monkeys. NO one CAN BEAT MOONLIGHT SONAYAS, EVEN CLEAN V/M GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.
They won because of a costume problem, nothing else.
GREETINGS FROM POLAND
If P/C hadn't been over-scored in the short program they wouldn't have been on the podium at all. P/C should have been deducted for their numerous errors, the errors on the twizzles, dead spots in the choreography, and their out of unision step sequences. If not for the judges propping them up they are not even a top ten team.
Deleteall the same bullshit
DeleteOFF ON THE PODIUM? ARE YOU SERIOUS??lol do be ridicoulos
They had PERFECT RHUMBA< NOT like V/T which was MUCH WEAKER, THEY GOR LESS POINTS< RIGHT LOSERS?
THEY HAD NON-T on 4L and MAXIMUM GOE !!!! just liKE V/T
They had only problem with twizzles - that one bigger mistake should cost them 4 poinrs more???and podium? You are funny
The problem with lift was not obvious - even PRO- CANADIAN jude from canada gave them 2, so what goe do you expected? lol
Dont start that bullshit with overscoring. Judges loved that program through season. You know that and it makes you furious. But I tell you one secret. JUDGES DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR OPINION OR MINE. they dont give a fuck that some psycho candians hate it.THAT people like you THINK "SHAME OF YOU" IS BAD/WEAK/boring etc etc.. You have to live with it..
For you all here that program ALWAYS IS OVERSCORED< WHEN IS CLEAN OR NOT.
IMAGINE HETER that program executed CLEAN on olympic. YOU WOULD GET HEART ATTACK. you would die nagging about being overscored. becauses judges decided to give better pcs to papadakis / cizeron even WITH NO PERFECT SKATE. So you know if not that dress, they would got MUCH BETTER PCS. Thats what irritating you AHAHAHAH
So you admited many times on those hatress websites that you are glad that papadakis had problem with that dress which fell off.BECAUSE YOU KNEW OTHERWISE TESSA AND THAT CHICKEN would lose !!!!!!!!!!!! THATS YOUR TRUE NATURE
You only won
because OF THAT DRESS. EVEN THAT HARDLY AND YOU BEHAVE LIKE YOU WON WITH 10 POINT MARGIN, morons IF YOUR PROGRAM WERE GOOD YOU WOULD WIN FD, But oh my god you didnt. French got another WR. what a loss.
Gabi deserved +5 GOEs on all elements for keeping her composure and skating that SD nearly as good as she did the entire season. If only some cunt didn't go snip snip on her dress they would have won and everyone knows it.
How can we be poor losers when our team WON?
DeleteIn fact they are the most decorated figure skaters in Olympics history now. And if you don't want to count the Team Event, still the most decorated ice dancers.
Poland, more like Pologne?
@ 10:17 AM
DeleteRight on! Btw, I initially gave P/C a #4, but after reflecting on your list of errors, I realize #4 was overly generous. It's still a head scratcher for me that the French Ice Dancing Federation pinned their gold medal hopes on P/C. Surely France must have a few charismatic ice dancing pairs in its Olympic stable. The French Federation judges better get their vision re-checked before the next Winter Olympics roll in because P/C will be facing Ruskie ice dancing pairs, unlike this time round, and the Ruskies do angst, unrequited love, romance really really well, and Ruskie attention to perfecting technical skills is well known.
@ 9:14 AM
Not only did P/C receive pity points for the costume malfunction for a lackluster SD performance, they suffered no consequences for the wardrobe malfunction. Min/Gamelin had a similar wardrobe malfunction and according to Tanith White, M/G had 1 point deducted. Why are P/C above the rules that applied to other ice dancers?
Anonymous from Poland, Have some class. The Silver Medal was a gift. There was even a marked difference between the audience responses between the two long programs. V/M blew the roof off and P/C was just meh. The only way P/C will win the next Olympics is if the judges keep propping them up. They have no incentive to improve.
Delete@ 11:06 AM "Poland, more like Pologne?"
DeleteROFL! But seriously, I doubt any Eastern Europeans would be in such an all CAPS twist over V/M vs P/C. Eastern Europe and Russia conceived romantic poetry, literature, classical music in spades. V/M 's artistry on ice would definitely appeal to them, imo, as opposed to the sterile performance of P/C. As one example when Kolydaya was asked about his favorite skaters, without hesitation he named V/M as his #1. The main cheerleaders of P/C were the NBC talking hairdos and that was only because they were told to do so. TW may have had a personal interest in promoting the P/C meme because if V/M won a silver medal, she and hubby could put to bed the doubts that had plagued them since Sochi.
I am Polish. Jestem polką , jaki masz problem?
DeleteYou are LOSERS BECAUSE YOUR PERFECT FD WASNT ABLE TO BEAT CLEAN MOONLIGH SONATA haaha AND YOU WERE SO SURE ABOUT THAT.. YOU WON 0.70 POINT!!!!STOP AVOID FACTS ONLY BECAUSE OF THAT DIFFERENCE YOU WON. WHO WAS CAUSED WARDROBE MALFUNCTION
AND stop whining about french sd. YU WOULD GAVE 4th PLACE???Hilarious JHAHAAH WHO ARE YOU to say that?? canadian fat ass like tessa with fake nose? you are nobody
JUDGES WERE READY TO GIVE BETTER SCORE THEN CANADIAN ONE, BETTER PCS FOR SURE.IT doesnt matter WHICH PLACE you would put them. YOu are JUST JEALOUS. YOUR OPINION ON WHAT PLACE YOU D LOVE TO SEE THEM IS NOT IMPORTANT.YOu will see on words
THe most impoirtan thing is v/M hardly won, they won yes but HOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
they almost lost. The fallen dress gave him a win.NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE BETTER.
They lost in sochi because they were much worse, here they wouldnt won if not that papadakis dress. they had luck
and DO you know that coward Scott gonna go to worlds? Because i saw on twitter that he is scared to go against french again. HE is afraid to lose again , because he knows that dress strap wont fall off again HAHAHAHAHAHA
You're trying too hard, too many tell signs. You should have left it at a few mis-spelled words and 1 CAP phrase. "Monkeys" blew your cover. So where are you from? For real? NYC, LA, Montreal, Paris? If you want to stay in your Pole character, pls. don't insult our intelligence. Go easy on caps and colloquialisms is all we ask.
DeleteMoonlight Sonata is a great piece of music. It was not V/M who beat it, it was P/C themselves with their boring and reused movements (seriously, I liked their Beethoven and To Build a Home performances, but, since then it seem like they do the same perfomance over and over again, just with different music).
DeleteThe waldrobe malfunction was indifferent for the judges, since P/C many mistakes during the short dance were not reflected in their scores. They should had score lower, because other skater who made the same mistakes were penalized and P/C were not.
Tessa and Scott have been saying in interviews that they came back with complete control of their own narrative. I think that is a subtle way to say that they knew what they were getting themselves into (the overscoring of some teams in spite of others, the judges corruption) but they were willing to do everything in their power to make this corruption schemes a lot more difficult to be done. You can see that in the olympics. Despite some saying the judges were in their favor, you just have to check the score boards to realize it was the other way around.They barely won because the judges could not take too many points out of them. The fraud would be too obvious if they took more than a few decimals, given V/M almost perfect performances.
Are you one of those people who get paid to "stir up the pot"? How much do you make?
DeleteThis person is obviously an internet troll, probably not even from Poland. Must hate Poland and want others to hate polish people too. Or is using Poland as a decoy because the situation there is already controversial.
Anyway, judging by the way you write your sentences, you're not as smart as you think, so who cares about your opinion? Pretty obvious you don't know what you're talking about!
I like P/C and they won a fair silver medal and a record score, so they shoul be pretty happy with the outcome of their first Olympic games. You're not doing them any favors by writing this kind of things.
Or maybe you actually hate P/C and want others to hate them too...? Not very clever too, because you're still the only one looking like a sore loser!
Ignore the troll. Nothing will make him/her happier by us responding to their rants
DeleteHmmm sounds like that hater poser from YouTube (I.e Christian margeric or Marie m.) They’ve been known to dally in this blog recently just to stir s***. V/M won. Get over it, troll.
Delete@ 12: 46 Bravo! Well said.
DeleteI have a few questions for you because you seem familiar with P/C's ice dance repertoire at various competitions
1. are P/C truly the best ice dance pair that France has to offer? For the life of me, I just can't believe that's true. France used to have highly regarded ice skate coaches and facilities. Surely these French coaches must have had other outstanding quality pairs at their facilities that would have challenged and beaten P/C.
2. if P/C are the best in France/Europe bar none, why did DG have doubts? A confident French Ice Skating Federation President would not find it necessary to strike a quid pro quo deal with the USA.
3. none of this makes sense to me. I suspect there's another layer of corruption outside the French Federation that brought pressure to bear on DG to use all the tricks in his toolbox to propel P/C to the top in France, above more deserving French ice skaters. The fix in these Olympics was Part 2 of the web that originated in Paris.
@ 2: 47 Well, I am not a specialist on figure skating, but I am a huge fan of ice dance and have been following it for a long time! I dont't know if I can answer all your questions, but I'll try!
Delete1. Since Pechalat/Bourzat retired P/C completely dominated the scene in France ice dance. I think is because most ice dancers in France right now are fresh out of the junior level (I don't mean to say they are bad because of that. Virtue and Moir were really good from a young age. Is not for nothing that they were 4th in their first senior world championship). Some of them have great potential. Lauriault/ LeGac improved a lot and put out a great FD performance this season, but, in my opinion, they are not a good match for each other. I guess because of their height difference, they struggle to skate in unison and she, sometimes, has to do some running to keep up with him. If they can work that out, they will do great in the years to come. Their skating skills are on par with P/C. Abachkina/Thauron have some artistic skills, they remind me a little bit of P/C, but their technique needs a lot of work (bad transitions, can't generate speed), just like most of the other teams (Ojardias/Bramantis showed some promise too, but I haven't seen them skate in the last seasons. I wonder what happened to them...?). I don't really know what is the situation with French coaches and facilities, but some retired skaters who became coaches are working in USA alongside Marina Zueva or Igor Shpilband. So, answering your question, I think yes, at the moment, P/C stand out among French ice dance teams, but Lauriault/ LeGac are very close to them.
2. You hit a sensitive spot here. They may be the best in France/Europe (I have my doubts about Europe. The Russians are not in a good momentum, but the Italians are fabulous. I particularly like Guignard/Fabbri), but they are definitely not the best in the world, especially when compared to Americans and Canadians. P/C are really good skaters, no doubt they should be among the top 10 in the world. But when you put them side by side with Virtue/Moir or the Shibutanis, which strive for perfection in every single movement, the flaws are pretty obvious. They disguise their errors as "artistic" movements and get away with it, which I really don't like because it's not fair to the other teams who are penalized if they do anything like that (P/C prefer to sell it as part of their style instead of correting those mistakes and prove they are as talented as everyone thinks they are). DG is very aware that P/C would not place at the top as frequently as they do if the judges had not decided to overlook their flaws. And even if they were the best in the world (which I really think they have potential to be), DG is a known corrupt man and, probably, thinks everyone is like him. So I don't think he believes pure talent can get someone on the top of the podium. I think he sees schemes everywhere an makes schemes as much as he can in order to get what he wants.
Delete3. If you dive deep into the conspiracies about all the corruption in figure skating, you'll end up with a really bad headache! Only a few schemes have been proven, but if you believe the talks, there is a lot going on behind the scenes and the actual skaters are manipulated beyond their imaginations. Bear in mind that the ISU 2018 elections are coming up soon, and DG is probably going to want a position in there. Some french skaters in the podium could boost his chances...
P/C are not undeserving of what they got, they are talented, but it seems to me in the last couple years they just rest on their laurels and stopped improving, because they get high scores no matter what. They don't really have to prove themselves as other skater do and, because of that, they stagnated. This attitude almost paid off again in the olympics, but I'm glad they did not win this time. Maybe this will teach them to bring something different in the next seasons and really showcase their skating skills, not just upper body movement.
Would you care to talk about skating and justify your belie that they would have won based on their abilities, which of course you will be able to support based upon your knowledge of the fundamentals of skating skills? If not, you're leaving.
DeleteAll right, when I posted, I had failed to scroll down and see the rest of it. One more in that vein and the whole thing goes. Back it up with the SKATING, not the scoring, or go.
DeleteIf p/c is smart, they'd take a real close look to what ppl are saying. Yes, truth hurts. But some truths are just that - truth. Some of us know that they can skate but not at the levels they pretend they're at. Judges are doing them a disservice by doing this. In the end, they will the ones taken over by another who will be regarded "superior" to their "skating skills" and "artistry". At least with v/m, they can argue till they blue in the face, but if they watch the videos they can't argue their skating skills, they can't argue that they too sell their programs. Yeah yeah fans make insulting comments about how ott they are or nitpick over their looks. But their skating skills DO speak for themselves.
Delete@ 6:06 PM and 6:07 PM 02/22/18
DeleteThanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I appreciate it. I didn't know much about what's happening on the Continent in terms of ice dancing. But based on what I've seen in women's figure skating and using that as an "indicator" which might apply to emerging Russian talent in pairs and ice dancing, I would be tempted to quibble about your comment: "The Russians are not in a good momentum, but the Italians are fabulous." Time will tell 4 years henceforth. Thanks again for your perspectives.
OC, I'm a bit surprised that you think this thread might become worthy of banning, but the one above isn't worth even addressing, given that you've been open about your general political leanings. Not that I think you should ban it necessarily, but just that you tend to set the tone on here by your responses.
DeleteSorry, my comment was actually directed to the random ALL CAPs troll. I first responded after reading just one of their posts, before I scrolled down and realized there were a bunch from this person. (That should teach me to jump in before I see the full picture). I was telling this troll to start talking about skating, not the scores, and not taunting, or I'd take his/her posts off the board. Sorry to be unclear.
DeleteWas talking to the troll, IOW, not commenting on the conversation thread in general.
So is it 100% certain that V/M will skate to Gord Downey music at the gala? I sure hope not. Maybe you need to be a born and raised Canadian to appreciate GD's music. I don't get the adoration otherwise. Whatever...just my 2 cents...I'd much prefer V/M dancing to Ed Sheerdan's "Perfect" because the lyrics are "perfectly" suited to them. Sheerdan is a Brit - doesn't the Mothership warrant some love from Canadians?
ReplyDeleteSomebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought "Stay" was brought up in the V/M thread at one of the skating forums. If true, it's an old program, but I'd prefer it to Ed Sheeran (eww, that plagiarizing troll).
DeleteHonestly, I'd prefer the EX version of the Prince SD.
The US has the highest number of lawyers per capita in the world ( 1 per 300 people). Anyone can sue anyone here and lotsa motsa Americans do. 30% contingency fees along with the fact that court fees are rarely assessed to plaintiffs who lose the case feeds that type of slimy self-serving greed. Sheeran being sued in US court does not mean he is a plagiarist. It's more likely that the other players are opportunists looking for a nuisance payout. Non-American residents view nuisance payouts as proof of guilt. Wrong. It's a common solution used stateside to be rid of annoying baseless lawsuits because it's quick and it works. Auto insurance companies use it all the time even if their clients are not at fault - $10,000 for a rear end owie received at a speed of 15 miles per hour - no worries, let's cut you a check to make that phantom booboo feel better. Then the auto insurance companies turn around and jack up the premiums on their clients - win/win for everyone except "the marks." Nuisance payouts are so common here, even illegals use it against US citizens. Once there was a pack of foreign "entrepreneurs" staging rear end accidents all over California to collect insurance nuisance money. It took quite a while for them to finally get busted, because nuisance payouts kept them off the radar of LEO's.
DeleteAnyhow, now that I've given you an overview of the litigious cons that happen daily in the USA, have you listened to "When I found you?" There's no there there of "willful copyright infringement." But it doesn't mean the plaintiffs won't make some bank or that their attorney won't get a 30% fee. America is Heaven on Earth for lawyers. That's why lawyer jokes are so popular here and why lawyers fall below used car salesmen in "trust and respect" polls.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/ed-sheeran-plagiarism-tim-mcgraw-faith-hill-jasmine-rae-song-a8161566.html
God bless anyone still interested in what VM skate at a gala. If I ever have sleep issues I'll make a playlist of their gala music, except I'm afraid it will turn on me and I'll jump out a window instead.
DeleteI actually really like "Long Time Running" (they've been doing it since Skate Canada). They choreographed it themselves the morning of the gala there and yet it shows more natural musicality than the more Marie-France heavy products they've been given since 2014.
DeleteI don't think they listen all that much to Marie-France. I haven't seen "Long Time Running", but I pretty much haven't liked any of their exhibitions in 8 years or more.
DeleteSheeran is a derivative artist who got lucky that Taylor Swift promoted him to her fans. He gives me "nice guy" vibes and like Taylor, is perfect for the age of Trump because of his whitebread mediocrity. I laughed at his tactic to time his album release to when he thought no other "big" artists were releasing albums, and then he later got overshadowed. He is utterly basic and I hope V/M avoids skating to him. The Bieber EX was enough.
DeleteTragically Hip, even one of their slow songs, is hardly the sleepy angsty stuff they've made a habit of doing exs too. Interesting voice, beautiful melody, nuanced lyrics. This song fits the end of their career perfectly and it's a lovely choice to honour such a talented, cherished Canadian who passed too soon. Why is it relevant if other people don't get his music? He's important to Canada and it's the Olympics where we can be patriotic unashamedly - if he matters to V/M, that's enough. He wasn't just a musician, but a humanitarian - in the true sense, not just a celebrity thing. He devoted so much of his energy, even in his final days, to the cause of indigenous reconciliation. I don't remember how Scott put it,"weirdly wonderful" maybe - he was a unique off the wall artist, but stories abound of how utterly genuine he was. An example from Rick Mercer's tribute to him - Downie wanted to know how to pronounce the name of a village in Newfoundland, Mercer helped him but then joked that if he wanted to be completely sure, he should call his dad. Downie did just that, because he cared so much about detail, and then talked for three hours with this old dude in Newfoundland, just because he was that interested in people. Zero pretension. It's fine to not get it if you're not Canadian, (and even fine to be a Canadian and not like the Hip), but there's no need to be dismissive.
DeleteTotally agree, 9:08. So musical, blows anything Marie-France has done herself out of the water. A lot of the moves are from their Gadbois programs but they've strung them together so incredibly effectively.
I may be in the minority when it comes to the Tragically Hip Ex. I’ve enjoyed many of their EX but not this one. I know they choreographed it themselves and understand the significance of it (as it revolves around their yrs of skating partnership)but I couldn’t get in it as much as the others. As much as ppl mock them for dancing to JB Sorry EX, I find it to be quite entertaining. If anything, I really like their routine from one ice show they did yrs ago. Bad Kisser? It has that hip hop and lyrical moves and lifts that’s so them.
Delete@ 3:08 AM
DeleteV/M chose GD because the singer and his song was meaningful to them and I agree with you, that's all that counts. Moir said GD was one of his heroes. So good on them for choosing music that is dear to their hearts in what may be their farewell performance.
However, I don't agree with your attack on other people's opinions on GD's music that do not align with yours. Your opinion is no more "relevant" than other people's opinions. And btw differences in opinion about GD's music, which you claim Moir himself described as being "weirdly wonderful," are probably more common than you may think. GD is obviously very important to you and to V/M, but whether GD is important "to Canada" is debatable. Ontario is not Canada.
As to your comment about GD's " zero pretension", this CBC interview clip with GD seems to challenge your glowing view:
"The last 150 years aren't as much worth celebrating as we think," Downie said. "But the new 150 years can be years of building an actual nation. Imagine if they were part of us and we them, how incredibly cool it would make us? That's what's missing as we celebrate doughnuts and hockey. Over and over and over and over again."
In any event, GD seemed to be a fine individual with strong personal views about Canada and it's sad his life was cut short.
As a Canadian, I can attest to the fact that Gord and The Hip (as we affectionately call them) were and are very very important to people across the country. Not just Ontario. After he was diagnosed with a brain tumour, the went on a "farewell" concert tour across the country. The last concert was broadcasted live to the entire country. Scott attended that concert. Gord Downie was a known social justice warrior here, especially regarding Indigenous rights and felt strongly about reconciliation. As a Canadian, their EX to Long Time Running means the world to me and many others.
Delete"It's fine to not get it if you're not Canadian, (and even fine to be a Canadian and not like the Hip)"
Delete10:19, what part of this is "attacking" people for not liking The Hip's music? At most the post was saying that LTR is slow but not of the same kind of slow music as many of their previous exs, not that everyone has to love the song.
Also Scott said the thing about Downie himself, not the music.
"It’s special for us that we get to skate to the Hip, and it’s our tribute to one of my heroes and a guy who was so wonderfully weird, and just how he embraced life.”
www.thestar.com/amp/sports/olympics/2018/02/21/tessa-virtue-and-scott-moir-to-pay-tribute-to-gord-downie-in-olympic-gala-skate.html
Also a third (11.7 million) of the Canadian population watched or listened to the final concert. The all time record is the Vancouver Olympic gold medal game which was half (16.6 million)..I don't think it is "debatable" whether he is "important to Canada". Not every Canadian cares about the band, but not every Canadian cares about hockey either.
DeleteAh correction, the first stat is tuned in at some point, the second an average.
Delete4 million was the average for the concert. But the Sochi gold medal game was an average of 8.5 million. To be almost half as popular as hockey in Canada is still pretty damn popular.
@ 12:26 PM " Not just Ontario. ...The last concert was broadcasted live to the entire country...Gord Downie was a known social justice warrior here."
DeleteWhoa, whoah. Now for some reality speak push back. I've been more than happy to acknowledge that GD's music is very special to V/M and to you and perhaps even to Justin Trudeau who held a rather embarrassing boohoo presser when told of GD's passing. Furthermore I said GD seemed like fine man with strong personal opinions. SJW? Whatever. Did GD leave his white boy alt. rock estate of multi-millions to impoverished Canadian Indian tribes? No. SJW rhetoric without action is...ummm....at best dreamy talk at worst hot air. Not claiming I know which camp GD falls into. I simply point out SJW is very trendy now and rich white folks are masters at lecturing the rubes about their multiple failings and what they should do to make amends but the same SJW's do squat all themselves except throw some $ ( which they have lots of) at designated feel good causes.
But I do draw the line when you try to promote GD as Canadian icon who was beloved and cherished by Canadians from sea to sea. Your schtick may sound convincing to Americans in Arkansas or to Auzzies in Melbourne who don't know any better, but I'm not fooled. Ever heard of dual citizenship? It's a wonderful concept and there's lots of ex-patriate Canadians here there and everywhere.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that CBC broadcast GD's last concert. And as we all know, CBC is hardly representative of all or most or even many Canadians or their interests. CBC represents the interests of Torontonian inbred elites as well as those of federal gov't bureaucrats in CBC and last but not least, Liberal Party interests. In fact CBC would not survive if Cdn. taxpayers were given a choice about whether or not to continue floating CBC's bloated annual budget of over $1 BILLION. Yikes! But lucky for CBC bureaucrats, Canadian taxpayers have no choice.
So spare me the "as a Canadian" pompous testimony from on high about what's important to most Canadians. How would you know? I suspect you live in the Southern Triangle bubble of "we know better than all other Canadians especially the ones living in the boon docks of Nfld. or God forbid, Alberta. CBC is so clueless/uncaring about Canadians' interests outside of Toronto metro, here's a revealing statistic for you to consider - Vancouver has 1 dedicated anchor, Ottawa has another and Hogtown all by itself gets 2. Montreal, Halifax and St. John’s get guest anchors who rotate through. Furthermore, as to CBC's taste being representative of anything outside CBC's bubble of mirrors - a couple of years ago, CTV's shows attracted an audience that was over 65% larger than what's presented on CBC. Last summer even CBC's highly touted "flagship" nightly newscast was notably dead last behind CTV National News (976,000 viewers) and Global National (686,000 viewers). The National had 621,000 viewers and that audience number nose dived a few weeks after the TV rankings were disclosed, much to the chagrin of overpaid CBC executives.
While V/M's fans are happy with whatever music they choose for their gala exhibition swan song, in terms of music that is widely known as being a Canadian composition that is memorable and which has with stood the test of time, what comes to my mind are titles like Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah or Joni Mitchell's Both Sides Now or Gordon Lightfoot's If you could read my mind or Celine Dion's Beauty and the Beast or Dan Hill's Sometimes when we touch or Bryan Adam's Everything I do or Neil Young's 4 strong winds or Sarah McLaughlin's I will remember you...to name of few.
But GD is V/M's personal choice and I respect their choice and I look forward to seeing them dance to Long Time Running on Saturday. No doubt it will be a magical performance.
They've already skated to Hallelujah.
DeleteGod forbid Canada ever designates music from later generations as classics, soiled as they are by the mere presence of concurrent pop culture recognizing alternative lifestyles.
DeleteI can't seem to find the article, but I think I read at one point that, similar to Bruce Springsteen in the US, the Hip had a lot of working class conservatives as fans early on, who then felt alienated when the band showed their political leanings.
@ 6:14 PM
DeleteSo what has pop culture and alternative lifestyles brought as value to the greater good? Have they won wars against totalitarianism? Have they put men on the moon? How's about medical milestones? Science and technology? Music - Mozart? the Beatles? Art? Oh sorry, graffiti doesn't count. Tick tock.... I'm waiting for your list...
I was born in Winnipeg, went to junior high school in St Albert, high school in Vancouver, UBC then worked in northern Canada for 8 years.
DeleteThe Hip had fans *everywhere*.
@8:16 PM
DeleteAre you assuming that *all* the people who have contributed to the progress of science, technology, art and music are straight? That queer people are incapable of scientific breakthroughs, thought-provoking literature, artistic and musical masterpieces? Are you discounting the work of people like Alan Turing, Sara Mead, Pyotr Tchaikovsky, Tennessee Williams, Sally Ride, Noel Coward, Sara Jospehine Baker, Elton John, Stephen Sondheim, Jerome Robbins, Lynn Conway, Howard Ashman, and many more? Are you discounting the work of both people who are "out" and people who are not (for various reasons) in different fields today (both groups whom you are probably not aware of), working as scientists, serving in the army, creating art, basically being fruitful contributors to society?
Bigot.
Omg. Why does everything have to fall into this "are you for or against alternative lifestyle" trap. All humans contributed to something big or small. Just because we are straight, we don't claim to be the only ones who accomplished everything and ppl in the past (who are homosexual but hide it) contributed as well. We certainly know that now. Have they ever been bashed or mocked in that circle of accomplishments by straight ppl? I get what's bothering some of ppl in society is the constant pushing and expecting of complete acknowledgement and acceptance when in their minds it really an act against nature. Try explaining to a child where they come from is good enough point for them to say why humans are created for. Because without the opposite, you can't create a human being. Just let it/them alone with their beliefs. You will never and can never change their mind. Let you or us accept it and move on.
Delete@9:01
Delete"Just because we are straight, we don't claim to be the only ones who accomplished everything and ppl in the past (who are homosexual but hide it) contributed as well."
Are you the same user at 8:16 PM? Because if not, I will re-post what s/he said:
"So what has pop culture and alternative lifestyles brought as value to the greater good? Have they won wars against totalitarianism? Have they put men on the moon? How's about medical milestones? Science and technology? Music - Mozart? the Beatles? Art? Oh sorry, graffiti doesn't count. Tick tock.... I'm waiting for your list..."
While not saying that straight people "accomplish everything, the implication in this statement is that queer people had/have nothing useful/worthwhile to contribute (or have contributed) due to their "alternative lifestyles".
Also, you said, "Have they ever been bashed or mocked in that circle of accomplishments by straight ppl?"
Uh, yeah. And in some cases, persecuted as well. (Although some of them they must've had some straight allies too.) Remember Alan Turing? Subjected to chemical castration? It was only decades after his death that the UK government apologized for its treatment of him and the Queen granted him a posthumous pardon. Many people were in the closet/hiding their sexual orientation because being out risked a lot -- career, reputation, life.
Gender is a social construct. As for explaining to a child where they come from, then talk about the biology. But also talk about how different kids can have different kinds of families. Because that is reality. People really do have different kinds of families. Some have a mom or a dad, some have single parents, and some have two dads/moms. The important thing is that these parents love them.
There have been too many accounts by gay people who have tried and failed to be attracted to the opposite sex. Some of them have been raised to be as heteronormative as possible and still ended up being gay. So IMO, it can't be all a "nurture" thing. That leaves biology.
I do understand that I will never ever change these people's minds. But I couldn't leave some things unchallenged.
I love "If you could read my mind" by Gordon Lightfoot.
DeleteI gave a re-listen to Long Time Running and, considering it as music only, without the weight of everything else, it's more contemplative-ish singer songwriter product that they've done unto death. This may have a better pedigree that some of the other music they've used. They're also completely entitled, it goes without saying, to skate to whatever they want, and for it to mean whatever it means to them. What it means to me is good God, wake me when it's over. I hope I'm wrong when I see it.
Kind of OT, but when the discussion was about Duhamel Radford, I put myself in her shoes with a partner announcing he wants to skate their short to his own composition. No matter what season we were in, I would not be excited.
The EX is comprised of a bunch of their current and previous lifts and transitions. It's nice but dare I say, kind of vanilla compared to their few exhibitions :)
DeleteBut there's also a lot more skating than something like Good Kisser. I'll take vanilla over vamping.
DeleteI don't mind recycling when it's arranged so musically.
I really did enjoy it because there was more skating. Every nuance showed the kind of shape they're in as skaters and athletes. They expressed themselves more through movement than acting - or at least as much, which was a plus.
DeleteI stumbled upon this site sleuthing trying to demystify whole Tessa and Scott thing. But how did you find out that they were married? Is there some proof to that aside from speculating based on actions? I find it hard to believe. That's something you can't hide from other competitors. Especially the Russians.
ReplyDeleteI think the same. How would you know that they are married? But more importantly, there was a speculation on this blog (presented as a fact) that they have one, two or three kids. How would they find time for that? They were always competing or doing ice shows and the idea that Tessa was pregnant and hiding it is very unlikely. I don't know, but this idea seems like something taken from a fanfic about them (which they are many lol).
DeleteWell, the only ppl that would know for sure is them, their close knit friends and family. They must be really masterful to hide it all these years even from their competitors too. I know there are a few of them who are quite loose lips.
DeleteOC (the owner of this blog) claims the marriage and children are not a secret within the skating community. At least I think that is the claim.
DeleteThey are not hiding it from anybody in the skating community and very few outside the skating community. They do not acknowledge it in the media and the media cooperates. You can scroll through the blog for answers but I'll just sum it up, no, it is not speculation.
DeleteFurthermore, people do talk and gossip left, right, sideways, and all over the place, and not always with good will. What they don't do is give interviews or contradict VM on the record. Nobody's a vault here. There used to be a couple of participants on this blog who found out after I did, independently, through their own sources.
DeleteWe talked in a a previous post about how dancers/people with a dance background would bot be good at judging because of valuing different things, might lack inherent musicality, etc. I say right now that unless that dancer/critic/person with a dance background has *actual* experience in (competitive) skating (or at least followed competitive skating for years and not just every Olympics), they would be piss-poor judges of ice dancing. Because they are not looking at the blade level. They also seem to forget that this is a *competition*. Certainly, a lot of programs are constructed to squeeze every point you could possibly have according to the ISU ice dancing guidelines. Unless of course, you're P/C and could afford less intricate/difficult programs because your fed president is making backroom deals so you could have the cushion to be innovative "artistes". Other teams can't do this, they'd be dinged by the judging.
ReplyDeleteBefore the rise of the YAGP-type competitions in the ballet world, a lot of old-timers used to frown at the idea of competitions (I think I read somewhere that the students of SAB were discouraged from doing them), because ballet is "art", and therefore subjective. Also, you are focusing on perfecting just a couple of routines when you could be in ballet school/training to hone your craft and develop your artistry. In addition, there are ballet/dance fans who bemoan the increasingly technical/acrobatic bent of the dancing in different companies today. I wonder if some of that abhorrence carries over when they watch ice dance. Because ice dance today certainly has a lot of very athletic/intricate lifts/"tricks". Unless, again, you're P/C and can do junior-type lifts that are certainly lovely but nowhere near the level of difficulty that your peers are doing. There is also a vein of snobbery that runs through ballet fans, who probably think of it as Art (with a capital A, of course), and might look down at other forms of dance.
These people praise P/C to the skies and are probably distracted by the "floaty arms" and flow-y, flowery, poetic programs. They are completely ignorant that you also have to take into account what is happening at the blade level, the edging and the stroking, etc. They just focus on the shapes and impressions. They leave out the actual *skating*. They don't know what great skating looks like. Which is why I can't trust their judgment.
It doesn't matter what we think of p/c's skating skills. Their fans see them as the epitome of what a refine skating program is (or should be) That's why they're constantly throwing shade at v/m. Ohhh we don't need acrobatic lifts, ohhh we don't need angst emotions, etc. It's always something wrong with v/m. First they say v/m are just technician type skaters and theirs are like artists. Now it's them who are technicians because the judges gave them higher TES over v/m. Unbelievable... The funny thing is it's not like v/m hasn't done lyrical style before countless times and no matter how much p/c fans (and sport journalists)want to tell and convince others about how they innovate ice dance. They haven't. Sorry ... There are other dancers before them had done what they did. For v/m, they brought out the mastering of skating skills first before incorporating artistry to that. They pick away at their weak points every season and try new styles just because ... to me, that what makes one greater and yes, better than the others.
DeleteDo P/C fans really say they don't need to be emotional? Because P/C themselves are sure obsessed with portraying emotions, if you read their interviews.
Delete10:45 I think that the people watching figure skating can be distinguished into certain categories. It can be seen in the way they watch the skating competitions. The casual viewers or people who don't know anything about ice skating are looking mainly on the upper body, arms, face and the "feel" and emotion of the program. The fans who are following ice dance know the key elements and focus more on the blades and the footwork, knees etc. The figure skaters see even more nuances I'm sure.
Delete@4:26am I guess not the kinds of emotions that v/m does. It’s always all wrong, right? Last season they all but accused v/m outright of copying p/c. I’m like what? It only looks to me like an upgraded version of what they did in their old lyrical style programs. They were dancing to a Music with lyrics not classical pieces p/c seem to go for. Yes, v/m’s outfits for one is different, skating skills (ie lifts) is stronger and well, expressions is quite subdued but within lines with what they envisioned for the Latch program. I’m like, Isn’t there own doing their thing & style? What about the coaches who approved of the program? Why not be confident on p/c’s work/piece of program? (Btw, it’s the same kind for 4yrs straight)..to me) I say, they don’t like v/m but won’t admit it. Period.
DeleteAll I have to do is read the comments on the forums. People claim to be dancers. Musicians. Their child is a piano prodigy. Whatever. Who we don't hear from are people who understand skating skills and blade work.
DeleteIMO criteria for the highest level should be changes of direction achieved with the blade that use no props, no lowering the enter of gravity, no arresting momentum with a spin so you can re-set and come out of it skating another way, no grabbing your partner and yanking her or pulling her towards where you're going to skate.
One single poster on one of the forums said it might be time to re-look at GOE and BV, get some specialists together who will determine what is actually difficult and what isn't. At the moment there are teams getting high base value for adding features to their elements that actually make execution of the element easier. But the sport knows it. They wouldn't have added a permitted stop in the step sequence if they didn't know it. God forbid a magical team fall on their ass if they have to sustain actual skating the length of the rink.
There's a whole world of catch foot, hops, skips, jumps, leaps, crouches, arm waving, etc. that provide a break from using your edges, and skaters win points for this. IMO the problem now is how difficulty is defined, and the incredible dumbing down of the content to level the skating field.
I am also curious why only certain teams appear to have permission to truly go lowest common denominator with the dumbing down, while other teams seem to be compelled to go with truly difficult variations on an element. Is this the notorious grapevine with which this oh so legitimate sport communicates issues to its athletes?
Carol Lane said a lot of crap in her commentary, but one thing she pointed out, which I hadn't thought of and seems valid to me, is that with a stop in the not touching step sequence it's a challenge to regain your speed quickly enough.
DeleteEh. Considering all the crutches so many skates use to sustain a sequence of actual skating, I'm side eyeing the regaining their speed. That's less of a challenge than staying on your feet, staying in sync, and having clean feet. Last year when they had to do an uninterrupted step sequence, Gabriella completely missed the counter one time. It's not like the judges are paying attention to nuances like speed, and it is a nuance at this point. They're paying attention to how it looks to civilians who don't know much about skating, IMO, and having a stop helps insure that skaters less solid on their edges don't blow it in an obvious way.
DeleteI was just reading on datalounge, of all places, that they're eliminating one jumping pass in mens'. If true, the sport continues to trend towards pageantry and dumb assery.
DeleteMore on 9:18 comment - Lane's remark presumes ice dance teams have speed to sustain. That a bunch of ice dance teams are capable of skating clean step sequences at speed, uninterrupted. Given a choice between having to regain speed, and getting a re-set/breather from edge work, most teams would take the stop every time, particularly since it's clear the judges don't care.
DeleteFair enough. She mentioned it with Min/Gamelin during the team event, and you could see them having trouble getting going again, but your points overall are valid.
DeleteOC, how are you at deciphering skating rules and marks? There's talk on forum boards about some changes to be made to scoring next season. Some express worry there's more open to manipulation. Any thoughts?
ReplyDeleteI've been reading how changes need to be made. At the moment I think ice dance and figure skating in general is more blatantly, in your face corrupt than it has ever been. The scoring system that ostensibly was intended to record what happened on the ice does no such thing. Skating quickly realized most fans, and that includes sportswriters who cover the sport, and even includes skating-centric journalists, know fuck all about what's going on at blade level, and probably think a choctaw is an exotic bird. So they can throw +3's and 10.00 out there that has no correlation whatsoever with what happened on the ice, because sportswriters and fans both tend to point to the protocols to prove their case. "No, I'm right, they were better. They got blah blah blah on their lift." Nobody is looking at the SKATING to see if the protocols are justifed, and they're not.
DeleteI know you know this, but that's one component of the problem - corrupton. The other is that they've dumbed down the sport so that the stuff a P/C does is weighted as heavily as the stuff VM does, even though what VM do is more difficult by a megaton.
The mystery to me is why every ice dance team doesn't just go lowest common denominator like P/C, since the rules now permit it. I can only think they're discouraged from doing so by the infamous "grapevine."
I don't know what's going to happen. Just as I gnash my teeth over ice dance, I go to a pairs forum and see fans bitching that Russia (of course, Russia) argues to upgrade the BV of toes and salchows, while of course not upgrading the value of a lutz (the jump Duhamel Radford did), and are basically trying to up the BV of stuff their skaters do well, even if it's easier.
I really don't see how the sport can be more open to manipulation than it is already. It is beyond a travesty now.
I don't see any cleaning up of the rules and judging, since more than ever this year, the emphasis was on fucking "style" and "story"; proactively steering the conversation away from the part that's actual sport and skill. Even the fan boards are full of performance discussion versus skating discussion, and we all know that's a critical distinction.
Delete^I am glad that V/M are finally getting out, then, before even more scoring f*ckery happens. I feel sorry for the good teams that are staying in. Like maybe the Shibs (I don't think they're gonna retire yet), whom the judges will probably never allow to get gold in Worlds or Olympics.
DeleteAs someone who is new to all of this (and has legit spent hours over the past 2 days reading this AMAZING blog),
ReplyDeleteCan someone break down the VM relationship? Kids/Married, etc.
Married since 2009, in Europe, directly after the Trophy Eric Bompard Grand Prix. Got pregnant with their daughter almost immediately after worlds. If you go through the blog and look at their slapdash photoshop output during the two years they were out of competition during Sochi, you can see Tessa's subsequent pregnancies. When fans learn she not only did what she did, but did it after having kids, they'll be stunned.
DeleteThe marriage and first kid part is not speculation; it's solid fact, and I started this blog because I knew it for a fact and found their treatment of fans nasty, mocking and unnecessarily cruel. I didn't care about them lying, I cared about how they and their family got off on mocking fans and jerking their chains.
"After" Sochi, not during Sochi.
DeleteHow do you know that? Which solid proof do you have for this solid fact? Can you show us?
DeleteI don't think you are lying, I actually want this to be true! But I've seen yor posts about that and, despite fueling speculations, they don't really prove anything. So do you have other information that was not shared on this blog? How did you get that information? Do you know someone close to them that told you all this?
I've been a fan of Tessa and Scott since 2012 and I've been reading this blog for some time now. I don't know if they are together or not, they have been very careful to keep their personal lives personal and they are careful about what they say in interviews. I think that maybe they are together now and have been in the past too. I don't know if Scott's girlfriends that we know of were fake or not (Jessica, Cassandra, Kaitlyn Lawes), but the idea that they have kids together is just... I don't know. It seems like a very f***** up and schizophrenic thing to do, be together all these years, have chidren together and hide it from everybody just that it doesn't ruin their skating or their image they have created.
DeleteHow would they explain that they have children in the future, when the kid is 15 or 20 years old? Are their kids raised by Scott's brother Danny, Charlie or the grandparents? In the birth certificate of the children there must be written who is the father or mother of the children, no? I just don't know what to think about this theory. In some recent interview from Pyeongchang, Tessa and Scott were asked what's the first thing they would do when they get on the home Canada soil and Scott said that he will get together with his family and hug his niece and nephew. So it's possibly his children with Tessa according to this children theory.
The theory is that they got married in October 2009 and Tessa got pregnant after 2010 Worlds. They didn't compete after that, Tessa underwent leg surgery in October 2010 and the first competition in the 2010/2011 season was in February 2011 at Four Continents, where they withdrew from the free dance because Tessa "felt tightness in her left quad muscle" which was a result of the compartment syndrome. So do you think they would lie and say Tessa had compartment syndrome in 2010-2011 when in reality she was pregnant? I am asking: What proof do you have that they are married and have kids other than you know some friend of the family who told you this?
I don't know how they plan to explain it if they ever do, but the kids aren't being kept hidden away in an attic somewhere. VM are raising their kids. The kids live with them. I don't know why people get so hung up on the birth certificates since those are not of public record and only immediate family can acquire them, but would bet all of the money and everything I own that of course their VM's names are on the birth certificates because that is how things work when a kid is born. People know they have kids. The oldest child as certainly been in attendance at skating competitions and events both before and after the comeback. She's 7 now. She participates in the world.
DeleteIn my case, I know for fact about the marriage and the first child. As with everyone else who knows for fact, I'm not going to reveal or explain how I came to have this information. If you've been reading this blog for sometime now, I think you're bound to have seen discussions in the past about why no one is going to give away your sources. Protecting your source is a golden rule. Skating is a small, insular world. Even if you're not naming names, it's easy to figure out for those on the inside who said what and that could have repercussions for people.
As for 2010-2011, Tessa was also still dealing with compartment syndrome while being pregnant. The surgical procedure for compartment syndrome does not require general anesthesia and it was safe in terms of the pregnancy for her to have the surgery when she did during the very late part of her second trimester.
Also, I want to point out that it's largely fan lore driven with an assist from movies and pop culture that fans the idea that skaters are going to blabbing each other's secrets to the public or that the media is going to blab something a skater doesn't want told to the public.
Thanks 4:47pm.
DeleteThe other two (haven't checked the ISPs to see if it's one or more), please read the rest of the blog where this has been addressed over and over. Also, please check your assumptions - the idea that it's under dark cover and they have to keep it secret is wrong.
One point - I do not care if you believe it or not, so I couldn't be less motivated to "prove" how I know, for obvious reasons.
The media doesn't blab, meaning the media doesn't publish or announce what Scott and Tessa don't want to deal with in public, and the same with the skaters. Do you believe that there aren't other skaters with issues that are widely known but not blabbed about for attribution? Of course you know there are. This doesn't just apply to figure skating, but to most enterprises.
Oh, neglected to add - if you try to line up what the blog says with Virtue and Moir's public explanations you will run into trouble. The reason they cut short their long program at 4CCs in 2011, for instance, isn't because she got a cramp, but because she had given birth in the not distant past and her body literally was not yet recovered enough to stretch where and how it needed to in that program. Tessa does not move just from her joints, she moves from her core - that is what sustains every move she makes.
DeleteIOW they planned to cut it short before they ever took the ice. I remember wondering seriously what they were going to do, because I knew they couldn't compete the full program. When and where they stopped, I thought Oh my God. They got the feedback on the short that they wanted and then just went through the motions with the long until they hit where they intended to stop.
DeleteFor fun, I would look up a video where Alex Shibutani gets a cramp in the middle of the performance. His face is agonized. He's white as a ghost, Maia is distraught, and he can't weight or stretch the leg that is cramped. There's also an episode of Dancing with the Stars where the pro Maks Chermikovsky gets a cramp and is in agony. Now, he's a showman, so I wouldn't put it past him to play it up, but at least he knows what a performance-stopping cramp looks and feels like. Then look at Tessa. Her face, Scott's face, her stroking perfectly evenly to the boards, and best of all, her and Scott taking center ice to bow to the crowd after withdrawing. She bends at the knee the damn leg that is "cramped". They're not the greatest actors, and I'm only bringing this up as a way of suggesting you check out that 4CC's aborted long program and see how convincing you find it before and as they stopped.
They never said she got a cramp. In the post-interviews, she said she was feeling pain in her quad muscle even before the performance.
Delete7:10 I think so too, it wasn't a cramp, but pain. Watch the video when Tessa got a leg cramp during free dance at 2013 4CC (Carmen FD). It was different, she couldn't even step on the leg, that was a cramp.
DeleteI agree, 7:10. The stop at 2013 4CC from actual pain from an actual leg cramp was completely different than the pre-planned stop in 2011 after she'd had the baby and wasn't ready to compete a whole FD in one go. You could tell she was hurting in 2013. In 2011, they were just acting weird and sheepish.
DeleteSorry, had inadvertantly posted a comment using another pseudonym, so deleted and starting again.
DeleteI am not deducing that she had had a baby recently - she'd had a baby recently, such a short time prior that unless she was a medical marvel she simply would not be able to stretch as she needed in that program, no matter what brilliant shape she was in. I still have much appreciation for their lift in the short dance, with her pelvis pressed against/supported by Scott while she arches her chest and neck. Not every ice dancer out there can keep their pelvic girdle securely supported/unchallenged while opening the chest, shoulders and neck enough to create the impression of a big arc.
None of what I point out in their public behavior and none of their countless lies causes me to deduce that they are married parents. I don't deduce it, I know it. It starts there. I know that fact, so then it's blatant when they are lying in contradiction to the facts.
What "it" at the 4CC's 2011 was "was" was nothing. What she actually had was neither cramp nor pain. She'd had a baby, but they wanted to road test the short dance, since it was the first year it had replaced the od. So they did the short and planned a withdrawal from the fd. I will dig up the "cramp" origin for 2011, but it remains that she stroked evenly, showed no pain in her lower back or upper leg, and bowed bending the afflicted leg. There was no tightness, no tension. She's a rock star, there is no doubt, but batting your eyes and looking sheepish/bad acting is not the customary way someone responds to pain. You can see more of this type of incredible acting skill in the reality show.
2:36 again. That should have been I agree with 11:13 not 7:10.
DeleteThere were two separate 4CC stops over the years, and it's important to keep the events separate and not mix up the events of each one. 2011--planned stop because she wasn't ready to skate a whole fd straight through after giving birth. 2013--unplanned stop because of real pain from a real leg cramp.
BTW, although I have gotten into it here, I'm not going to carry on. Use your search tool and look at the thousand ways this exact, word for word conversation has been conducted a thousand times in dozens of comments sections since the blog began. The points people think they are making and the assumptions they hold are nothing new, they are to every detail the same old same old. I do not care who believes it or doesn't believe it. THAT appears to be a huge misconception by some visitors. "Sorry - I don't believe it!"
DeleteI don't care.
2:47, thanks. There is a lot of confusion because it's getting to be a long time ago now, and I paid a lot less attention to 2013 than to 2011, as 2013 was a concerning year, period, on the ice, with the judging, with the destruction and disparagement of Virtue and Moir's truly innovative Carmen program. It was a nightmare, and the 2013 stop was something I'd all but forgotten until reminded just now.
DeleteYes, I am also curious as to how you know that this is 'solid fact'? Do you have a copy of a marriage license? Do you have pictures of children? It's kind of hard to hide children. Even if others are caring for them, there would be pictures. So where are the 'facts' to substantiate your claim that 'the marriage and first kid part is not speculation."?
ReplyDeleteYou have a copy of the marriage licenses of everyone you know who is married? Because that's kind of creepy.
DeleteNo - but I also don't write a blog about people that I don't know personally and state information as 'fact' without back-up/evidence. Saying 'the ice skating community knows" and neither the media nor the skaters 'blab'. I am sure that is true to an extent. But deflecting by the author saying they are not motivated to prove it and doesn't care what the reader thinks just smacks of propaganda. If you do not want to/cannot provide factual information, then what you are writing is nothing but hearsay/unsubstantiated gossip. And out of curiosity (which is what brought me to this blog), what's your 'dog in the fight"? (this to the blog author)? Why do you care so much about these people and their private lives? Do you know them personally? It's interesting to know if they are together or not given the intimacy that they can portray on the ice. But beyond that, it's really none of anyone's business other than their own. Fans don't have a right to celebrities' private lives. They only have a right to their 'product'. The other is just human curiosity (which is why gossip mags exist).
DeleteLook at all the assumptions in your post that you don't even know are assumptions. Back up and get familiar with what the blog is actually saying or don't post. I'm not into straw men.
DeleteNot OC here, but my position as a fan is that the minute VM decided to lie to fans (which includes myself), it became my business because they were lying to me.
DeleteIf VM had not actively lied, if they had not had fake significant others, etc., and simply said all of these years "it's none of your business", then I would feel differently.
2:44pm, my position is more moderate. When you have a couple of young ice dancers with incredible on ice chemistry and skill, attributes that of course they are going to use in their performances, it's going to attract curious fans and it is, in fact, nobody's business, although in a sport like figure skating, so grass rootsy where the celebs get much more face time with their fans than other celebrities experience, "None of your business" might not seem quite nice. Leaving it ambiguous might also open it up for other people to fill in the details and gossip.
DeleteStill, IMO, "Brother and sister" or whatever it is that Weaver and Poje and their platonic Xmas tree keep throwing out there is, IMO, fine. There's a long tradition of that.
Virtue and Moir wanted to commodify their chemistry on the ice and off the ice, that was an issue. They and their family and friends used, mocked, and exploited fans for shits and grins on their facebooks. Their use of facebook was full of lies, baits and switches, and unnecessarily hurt the feelings of thousands of fans when Scott announced he was leaving his personal facebook and going to a "page", but despite him claiming he was shutting down his personal facebook, he didn't. He deleted countless fans as friends, fans who heard from other fans that "they" were still friends in good standing on his facebook. "I guess he trusts me."
They made up this elaborate story, complete with tear filled eyes when Tessa told it, about not seeing or speaking to each other the entire time she was first dealing with CES, and how this created tension in their relationship for a full year, even continuing into the start of the Olympic season. Even though the very fundamentals of this story could be contradicted with a basic youtube or google image search, it did not matter, fans went along cause that's what fans do. Shit, it went into a book they marketed after they won gold, a book that was 99 percent lies and bullshit but still cost 29.99 or whatever it cost.
They didn't just lie and then do a few sub-lies to back it up, they made up elaborate narratives. And then they'd totally change the narrative, absolutely contradict it, when it no longer suited them, and make an entirely different set of claims. At the root of it was, well, our marriage and kids is nobody's business, but our chemistry is a draw, so lets fuck with people! If your private life is so fucking precious, don't use it as a weapon. That's what they did. They weaponized their chemistry and used it to demean and mock their fans, not least during the reality show (which was, not surprisingly, one of the most misogynistic and sexist pieces of bullshit ever put out by a couple of modern athletes).
They started out using social media - facebook - in a hierachal sense. It's not a hierarchy though. It's democratic. If they're going to feed a lot of crap to gullible fans, lead them on just to laugh when fans fall for something, then someone can start a blog and call them out. That's how it works.