I thought the Worlds 2013 short dance comparison would be more about questioning what Davis White did to earn 77 points and not so much that Virtue Moir should have kicked their ass.
But after cutting up Giselle into 20+ segments (that will become gifs) because the program is just that choppy (and sloppy, especially at the end), and after breaking up Virtue and Moir's waltz into segments numbering in the teens, both are at issue. WTF with Giselle's 77 points and Virtue Moir, as skated, should have kicked their ass.
As an admirer of Virtue and Moir's skating, it's really an experience to cut the program up into easy viewing segments and therefore see what Tessa Virtue is doing out there. She can outskate Meryl Davis and Charlie White every day of the week and twice on Sunday - her blade run is stunning.
Even in a performance they felt was not their best, Virtue and Moir's feet and blades were obviously cleaner, their moves were sharper and better articulated, but most of all, the sustained edges and run of blade compared to Davis White puts them in a class apart. This should have been no contest - as skated.
When the short dance comparison is posted, I'll with start with Virtue and Moir's waltz so everyone can scrutinize that disappointing showing, and then it will be the turn of that 77 point wonder program, skated clean, so clearly Davis White partisans have nothing to bitch about. Surely Davis White's skating will prove itself to have clearly been the best.
For now in this pause post, I want to show a gif from Weaver & Poje's short program for future reference, especially when Davis White's program is gifed later. It's a nice piece of edge work and got a shout out from the Eurosport guys.
Here's Tessa with a throwaway move:
There is something Davis White's program had (and Weaver & Poje's program also had) that Virtue Moir's did not:
A big honking rest stop right in the middle of the program.
Tessa and Scott don't have one. Their program flows like a spool of thread unwinding.
The more you delve into this, the more I delve into this, and the more others delve into this, the more convinced I am that hysterical ugly crying is the only appropriate reaction to what was done to V/M.
ReplyDeleteIt's not even that - fine, them being not perfect earns 74 plus points. Okay. Let's not mind that what are perceived as glitches by Virtue Moir is considered style in Davis White.
DeleteIt's the fucking 77 points in a program full of skids, more choreographed WTF sloppiness a la tango, skating miles apart, repeating the same 2 basic moves throughout the program and pretending it is choreography. It's the two-footedness throughout. It's the extra rowing steps. It's doing little walking moves in between pieces of choreo. It's zero sustained edge coming out of the twizzles, and into them the hop isn't even a hop - it's more like a knee bend that they jerk a little. It's Charlie shoving and yanking Meryl in at least two places to get her from point A to point B (as separate from the pulling and lifting that's SOP for them - I mean a conspicuous shove and a conspicuous pull). It's the b.s. of doing something that repeats on an edge the first time, then switching immediately to two feet for the next. It's Charlie doing some big leap turn and lunge that has nothing to do with his blades because he starts on two feet and ends on a two foot lunge slide. It's the last beats of the Yankee Polka when Charlie's feet begin to remain on the ice a la snow plow instead of actually stepping. It's Meryl getting set down on two feet. It's the lift when I'm all - well, pretty basic but at least she is only supporting herself with one arm on Charlie when I realize it's the last move of the program and she doesn't have to control her exit - she just slides out of the lift and whenever she stops the program's over.
77 freaking points. And for what.
I know where you're coming from. For me, it's that the overscoring of D/W is part of the larger issue of "what is being done to V/M". But, ITA that the fact in and of itself that D/W's SD got 77 points is nothing short of fucking ridiculous and a huge problem all on its own. There were not 77 points worth of skating and dancing in that SD. Nevermind that there really wasn't much in the way of skating and dancing period.
DeleteAnother V/M fan and I are actually having a conversation right now trying to figure out what in the hell it is that D/W are doing on the ice. It's sure as hell isn't ice dancing and there's not much in the way of skating. The OD/SD sort of forcing some sort of attempt at dancing, but the FD's? Why is there no recognizable style or form of dance there? There is no dancing being done.
Funny you mention "what in the hell it is that D/W are doing on the ice" because I want somebody to answer that question about the moves leading up to the twizzles. There is a big flurry. They're doing a lot of stuff - a LOT of stuff. But is it actually skating? What kind of skating? How do you define the specific moves they're doing at blade level? It's a fucking clusterfuck of activity but when you break it down it's really hard to see where the actual skating is.
DeleteThe reality is, Davis and White are NOT being judged. They're simply not. Unless either one of them literally falls on their ass or wobbles so perceptibly the audience can see it, they're going to get monster scores. And then Virtue Moir WILL be judged, as they were this past season, and Davis White were not. The Davis White scores exist to pressure VM into doing God knows what - STOP ADVANCING THE SPORT SO MUCH! is what I suspect. Take out that absolutely beautiful Carmen spin and throw in Mahler so people can say you recycle shit too. Never mind if was level 4 during the GPS - we changed our mind - as we ALWAYS DO if it seems as if Virtue Moir might pull too far ahead. That Carmen program was evolving - acquiring speed and power, so start throwing tripwires out there and say you can't do this and you can't do that.
Meantime, if one fucking judge can say with specificity exactly what it is Meryl and Charlie are doing at various points in the program, I'd be all ears.
LOL. That is not a "rest stop." Rethink some of your assumptions before you claim this is an "analysis."
DeleteThey stop. They pose. They link arms. They hop in place.
DeleteIt's a rest stop. They're resting. They take a breather. It has a technical term? It's a rest stop. It takes a whole lot more to skate your program as a whole. Most long programs have a transitional pause/posing section - in the short Davis White do Weaver Poje do, Virtue Moir don't.
Fascinating that the only DW comments here are "it's not a rest stop!" Or "the rules say they're allowed to do twizzles' and not a single relevant pro-DW argument for their skating.
We all know it's not called a rest stop, but good luck jumping on semantics. We also all know it IS a rest stop, a big ass breather they built into the program, and Virtue Moir didn't.
A variation of the 'rest stop' is what Dick Button calls 'the posing section' (See: Katarina Witt's 1988 Carmen). No hopping/skipping in place, though. :)
DeletePerhaps the more popular cousin is the 'slow section'. A lot of programs have this. Marina did/does it for her teams--fast/energetic opening, lyrical/slow middle, grand finish. It's necessary for a lot of skaters so that they could get to the end of the program. It's probably a matter of degrees as to which skaters utilize the middle better (i.e. making it look like they're not obviously taking a breathe, better use of skating skills, maintaining interest).
I wouldn't have an issue with the rest stop in D/W's short dance if it actually added something to the program and they didn't look like two five year olds at a ballet class.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't either if:
Deletetheir chief competitors had one- they don't. Scott and Tessa's program is one unbroken weaving and flowing nonstop. Why isn't this reflected in a score differential?
DW's entire Giselle program wasn't hopping, skipping and jumping. The rest stop is a dead stop, link arms, and more hopping, skipping and jumping side by side of course - wide open.
I have never EVER seen a team go this far out of their way to avoid actually skating. Credit to them they manage to do the footwork and the pattern, and how fortunate the pattern is UP and SKIPPY and OPEN this year and next year, and next year even has SKIPPING IN PLACE (oh joy for DW). But other than that, the TIME KILLING SHIT they do in Giselle as well as their other programs is unbelieveable. They are all about great flurries of running out the clock. When you look at the big fuss and flurry of activity that breaks out so often in their programs - where the fuck is the skating? Is this a dog fight or ice dance? It looks like the dog run when a bunch of dogs start scrambling around together and when they separate suddenly there's twizzles. Or, as in the case of other spots in their programs - the flurry IS the thing and when they come out of it there's nothing.
I am not as offended by the hopping and skipping in place, because I think it's a choreographic nod to the original Giselle choreography. Marina's singles program for Katia Gordeeva has such a stop, where Katia hops on toepick, referencing Giselle's hops en pointe in the Act 1 solo.
DeleteBut under the current scoring system, I think that yes, V/M and other teams should be rewarded accordingly for the flowing, non-stop movement.
Eh, but why did they choose Giselle? They use Giselle BECAUSE it has hopping and skipping and they can say "But it's Giselle!"
DeleteIt's bullshit. That section doesn't show anything of their skating skills, and how remarkable they felt the need to build that into Giselle when the rest of the program avoids showing skating skills as well. It's typical of DW to use every trick in the book including program selection in the first place. If your program selection inspires you to choose movement that doesn't employ quality blade work and and strong skating skills - if the entire program is a workaround, it doesn't matter if it's in the character of the ballet - it's skating first and you didn't show your skating. It's not 77 points.
Furthermore, Katia Gordeeva's "Giselle" was in her pro career. She and Sergei didn't run around hopping on their toe picks in their Worlds short programs. And needless to say, Gordeeva showed more blade run in that relatively empty show program than DW have shown most of their career. When you do that, you can afford to hop as a 'nod' to Giselle. When everything in between is hops and skips and pirhouettes when you're not running, leaping, grabbing, jerking upwards, walking and two-footing, putting a pose section plus sbs hopping in the middle of your program becomes overkill - you're hiding behind that homage. Hell, you've chosen the program because it allows you to finesse sustained edges. But if you do, the judges aren't supposed to say - oh well, it's Giselle. The relative lack of glide is appropriate! The judges are supposed to say "Unfortunate choice - it didn't show your skating."
DeleteEr, I didn't mention Sergei at all. I just mentioned the toe-hopping as an isolated incident. I suppose that I should have clarified that that part of D/W's program didn't bother me much--it's the *rest* that I'm, well, not in awe of, to put it lightly.
DeleteBut yes, I do agree with your points re:Gordeeva's blade run (she's among the very best, IMO) and the ratio of *skating* to the hopping/skipping. Which is why I maintain that V/M would have been superb with Giselle, if only Marina had given it to them.
I actually see more of Giselle and Albrecht in V/M's 'The Waltz Goes On' than in D/W's SD, especially in the first few outings. The lightness of the movements, the upright carriage, the beautiful arms and gorgeous lines. Tessa's shy demeanor in parts of the SD. These were more 'Giselle' than what their rinkmates showed. D/W's performance was more of Giselle's village friends at the festival than the lead characters.
I would also like to add that the more you analyze D/W's skating the more you realize the lack of edges. Seriously I've seen more edges from hockey players. Where is the glide? Seriously Jason Brown displays more dance qualities in his skating than D/W at this point..
ReplyDeleteI guess why work on edges, DW are getting plenty rewarded for all the exciting and showy flourishes.
DeleteThere's no glide.
DeleteThat was my issue with the run up to the twizzles - and there's a big frenzy and flurry but what are they doing?
And coming out of the twizzles in Giselle I'm like - oh really? Because they just stop. No blade run out of the twizzles - none. The twizzle ends with a STOP on the twizzle foot (they love to sort of bounce UP in place, also - just sort of flex their knees and jerk their bodies UP without anything really going on with the skates and the ice). After they STOP that twizzle and sort of push their body UP like "ta da!" they go directly onto the other foot. No maintaining an edge out of the element. No blade run.
Coming in - the scurrying and rushing and turning and reaching, the bending at the waist and rising - the head action! The arms alone! There's a ton of Charlie doing arm waving in Meryl's direction as if he's somehow connected to something she's doing, as if they're doing it together, but all he's doing is trying to "relate" to what she's doing with gesture, not skating. But sustained edges? Where the hell are they?
I really really really want to see if they got that GOE on the exit of the twizzles - "the maintain a sustained edge" GOE. Because you know what - TESSA did. The more you look at her twizzle wobble the better the whole thing looks - she didn't lose her line or her unison with Scott and she gets out of the element maintaining an edge. So does Scott.
I can't wait to see new ISU updates that make certain criteria more conveniently vague.
DeleteOy Canada - do you think that for the other disciplines singles and pairs rules will be "tightened" up while ice dance gets muttled? I hope not. The next 2 winter Olympics are basically in Asia (Russia and Korea). These are huge markets for Russia, China and Japan. I am hoping that these federations will put some pressure for the upcoming year. Yes, perhaps I am being naive...I have another thought about if D/W do win Sochi...what does that say about technique and coaching schools...when video-breakdown analysis happens...
DeleteWhat video-breakdown analysis do you mean?
DeleteIf it's the replay on TV that happens now and nobody calls out Davis White that I can see. The commentators get all non-specific.
I wonder if the amendments to CoP will get even vaguer for the Olympic year just because when I read some of the standards for specific elements NOW one can go - what do you mean by that? I wonder if the ice dance amendments will leave things even more general and open to interpretetation.
With Meryl and Charlie it's all about "I meant to do that!" The ISU judges don't seem to care WHAT they're doing out there as long as the team communicates that they did whatever it is on purpose, and as long as Davis and White communicate constant busy-ness.
I just remain mystified how they can do whatever the hell it is they're doing going into the Giselle twizzles and not a single commentator takes it upon themselves to tell us what it is.
I even find myself giving Davis White points if they're on an actual edge, even if they don't get any glide or run on it. Because they're on two feet, on their toes, or doing that weird flex knees and jerk UP thing they do all the time - making it seem like something's going on when all they're doing is flexing their knees and then jerking their bodies up.
There are more than a few regulars on FSU and GoldenSkate who consider themselves ice-dance experts, and for a long time now they have been aggressively proclaiming DW's "magnificent" skating, their improvement, their skills, yadda yadda yadda.... They have to be in serious denial, or did they just decide they personally like Meryl and Charlie more than Tessa and Scott, so to hell with actual skating skills and standards.
DeleteIt quite blows my mind how successful these posters have been in belligerantly shutting down any attempts at any substantive conversation that would show deficiencies in DW's skating. They've managed to get many to agree that criticism of DW is not only sour grapes, but the domain of dumb VM ubers who live in a fanatsy but who don't *really know* anything about ice-dance. The PTB who decided DW should win everything also got these message-boards, self-proclaimed "experts" to say DW are better than VM!!
12:53, it drives me batty just how successful these people are at shutting down any sort of critical skating discussion. It's been going on for nearly four years now. Don't dare point out anything about D/W's actual skating, heaven forbid. I think a lot of the V/M ubers/fans just want to keep the peace, so they keep quiet, save a few notable exceptions.
DeleteOne of the current proclamations from the D/W ubers is that D/W's twizzles are so unique and special that only D/W can do them.
I was just thinking that the knee bend and jerking UP thing they do that reminds me of a kid "jumping" without their feet actually leaving the ground - is a way to channel the momentum without having to channel it into a controlled edge. They're looking for ways to stablize themselves without using edges. An example that occurs to me is if you're riding a horse that's going at a canter and you're not that great, but you don't want to jerk forward in the saddle when the horse stops, driving your feet into the stirrups and standing UP helps stablize you. What you're meant to do when figure skating or ice dancing is use your edges, your blade run, your glide. You're not supposed to do some huge move and then drive your body into a stationery verticle upward jerk to exhaust/channel some of the momentum and only THEN stroke on the ice (if you do it even then). There are only two things they can do comfortably on the ice IMO, rotate (not necessarily with finesse, but with furious energy) and push UP on their skates.
Delete1:47
DeleteIsn't another of the DW ubers' current proclamations that Tessa's lines really aren't *that* good. LOL
Are they desperate are what. And they still cannot show a single area where DW have deservedly received higher scores than VM, so they must rely on invented issues, such as DW's twizzles are better or Tessa's lines not that good. Really - in what universe. I want them to prove that in slow motion, the teams side-by-side. They can't.
However, I'll concede the judging has implied these things. That still didn't make it true, no matter how much they wished it.
Really? HOW are DW's twizzles unique and special? And why are their fans harping on twizzles when one of them came here bitching that skating isn't only spins and twizzles? DW fans better damn well hope so - that's the best card DW have to play.
DeleteAre DW's twizzles unique and special according to how points are awarded in CoP? Are they two arm lengths or closer? Do they maintain a running edge when they exit? Do their body lines match? Are their body lines GOOD (not, for instance, hunched like a crab with bent knees?). Do they cover as much ice when the twizzle travels as, say, Virtue and Moir? Is their unison? When they contract their arms in the second set does their rotational speed and traveling speed pick up or slow down - a LOT?
Is the "hop" into the twizzles clearly defined, and is the ISU correct in categorizing a "hop" feature as added difficulty?
There are many skaters who disagree with what the ISU considers difficult and with levels of difficulty the ISU chooses to ignore.
I'm sure this idea will be resisted by DW fans whom I expect are about to become the biggest defenders of ISU integrity the sport's ever seen.
I haven't been able to work out the special and unique about D/W's twizzles. I'm just not seeing it in any of the 10 programs they've used them in.
DeleteI'm pretty sure they're not the only skaters who can do those twizzles either. G/P hop into their twizzles as well, after all.
I was lucky enough to be in London for the SD and FD, and even in the warm-up, it is evident how V/M's skating is head and shoulders above D/W. They basically take three strokes and they have covered half the ice. It was sooooo evident to me how D/W pick their way over the ice. And even with V/M's mistake on the twizzles, they did three and not two, and again, covered most of the length of the ice. D/W's SD lift was totally underwhelming when I saw it live, but seeing it again, it is not only easier, but is so ugly from all angles.
ReplyDeleteV/M doing 3 twizzles does not automatically trump D/W doing 2.
DeletePlease learn the rules.
Yeah, the blog has talked about the rules that so conveniently assign level 4 to a supposed hop that DW do into their twizzles, sparing them from the third set others must do without a hop. You'd think then, that DW would have an actual discernible hop into their twizzles instead of just slightly jerking their leg into it, but that's plenty good enough for the ISU.
DeleteDo you have anything else to contribute to the discussion of the quality of DW's actual skating including if the rules about Level 4 actually reflect the actual difficulty of a given element?
anon 2:01 - blatantly obvious you are one of the judges or ISU big wig pricks and not just a d/w fan.
DeleteWe are learning the ever changing, loop hole riddled, vague rules and it is making us more and more mad as we learn more and more because we see the deception so crystal clear now.
You may have the media on your side ISU, but the spectators know, and we're overripe with anger.
So you believe you know more than the entirety of ISU officials, coaches, and skaters?
DeleteWhere was all this dissection of D/W last year? Only when your favorite team loses, apparently.
The whole contention is that the ISU, etc. are corrupt and the judging is not correct on purpose. This sport has a LONG history of corruption and dealmaking, epecially in ice dance. COP did nothing to do away with that.
DeleteIf you like, we'd be glad to go back and dissect D/W's programs from last year's worlds as well. We've got 7 months until skating season starts again. Plenty of time.
The "entirety of ISU judges, coaches and skaters all believe DW are better?"
DeleteThe "entirety" of COACHES and SKATERS believe DW are better? Do tell.
Of course you're not going to point out how yourself - you'll just hide behind - ice dance judges? The most honorable in the sport? The ones who thought bungee cords were fine? The ones who placed DS and B&A 1 and 2 in 2009? The ones who "robbed" DW last year?
The blog has made it clear from the beginning that DW are a lesser team. However, this year the corruption became egregious because of how the judges went after Carmen hammer and tong, and because of the absurd scoring of DW for a program that was a non-skating pastiche. It was such a steamroller you'd have to be blind not to see the disconnect between the scoring, the chatter, and what was on the ice.
But good on you for standing up for ice dance judges.
I think you might be a little off about believing the "entirety of skaters and coaches" agree with the results. Maybe ask outside Team USA and maybe come back and defend what DW are doing on the ice, not what the judges pretend they've done on the ice. If YOU know anything about skating you won't need the judges - you'll be able to look at the skate and specify where they are showing better skating than VM.
More and more it's obvious many DW fans know this is phony and they don't care. They can't take step one pointing out for themselves where DW are superior. If they can't then how do they know the results are proper? Oh, when DW win, they're proper.
OTOH, VM fans are able to actually look at the skating. Of course that's easy for VM fans because their favorites actually are the best ice dancers in the world. I understand why DW fans call the blog names. It's the old rule - when all else fails, call the opposition names. Anything but actually look at the skating.
Furthermore is the person who shows up here only to instruct others to learn the rules interested in rewarding the best skating, or is this person most interested in defending rules set up so that the best skaters can routinely be defeated by non-skating show skaters?
DeleteActually, the rules have actually not reached that horrible pass as yet, hop into twizzles ridiculousness notwithstanding, but they are being selectively applied. Virtue Moir are not rewarded for what they do under the rules compared to what Davis and White are rewarded for not doing under the rules that the judges pretend they have.
6:34 - as tedious as the gif making can be, you're right - we have plenty of time. I'm especially interested in Die Fleudermaus.
DeleteSeeing V/M skating live in London confirmed what I've always thought: they are two ballet dancers with skates strapped to their feet. Simply stunning!
ReplyDeleteThey're not ballet dancers with skates strapped to their feet. They're the best figure skaters in the discipline of ice dance in the world. They're not dancing so well in spite of skates strapped to their feet, they're dancing so well because of skates strapped to their feet - they're using their skates to dance, not dancing in spite of the skates - that's what makes them great, it's what makes them perfect CoP skaters and great under any rule system, and it makes what's happened since the Olympics absolutely dirty and corrupt.
DeleteEh, I wouldn't call Scott Moir balletic, but he's such a darned good ice dancer with beautiful lines and works so magnificently with Tessa (who I will totally agree *is* balletic) that you don't even notice. I can't find the source right now, but Evgeny Platov singled Scott out in an interview, acknowledging his skill. Honestly, in terms of overall skill, I think Scott's the best male ice *dancer* in the amateur ranks right now.
DeleteI did not appreciate how refined Scott has become, how he has learned to hold his limbs in such a way to match tessa until I saw them live at skate canada this past year. I am aware from reading the internet chatter that many did not like their shortdance, but I thought it was divine and showed scott off as much as tessa. I really wish they had not been forced to make so many changes because it had such a striking effect, and as you have so aptly pointed out in these recent posts, highlighted just how much better they are than everyone else. Their ice coverage, the flow, the speed, the lines - the combination of all these things is just incredible.
DeleteAnon at 6:39, thanks for articulating something that I have struggled to put words to:"...he has learned to hold his limbs in such a way to match tessa..."
DeleteLike I said above, I wouldn't call Scott balletic-not his style. For me, that's a whole other level--Marcelo Gomes/Joaquin de Luz/Julio Bocca-type levels. But indeed Scott has worked hard and has come so far-unison, connection, expression. An excellent partner belonging to the greats in ice dance. No wonder he has won kudos from Platov. He and his partner have garnered a standing ovation from Tarasova. Zhulin has been highly complimentary of them. People may say (or sneer) all they like at the opinions of these (controversial) figures, but their insights are not to be taken lightly.
even when d/w are perfect they are still sloppy
ReplyDeleteOh, my God. Is that ever true.
DeleteAnd even when VM are imperfect; they're still beautifully clean, clear and powerful. That's what allows an imperfection to SHOW. It's difficult enough to even tell what DW are actually DOING with all the visual noise they spew out there, let alone if there's an imperfection in whatever exactly it is.