I was going to do the waltz first, then Giselle, but I've decided to alternate. There are more Giselle gifs than waltz gifs, because VM sustain their moves and DW don't. In order to properly look at DW, the skate needs to be deconstructed, and their moves are shorter and busier - hence, more gifs.
As I type this the gifs aren't loaded yet, but the idea now is to do VM gif, then DW gif (or gifs) showing the comparable point in their program, and then VM, and back to DW. And I may comment on some gifs as I go but most of the comments will be plugged in later.
I'm alternating because I see in the comments section that some DW fans claim Tessa's lines aren't THAT good. That's some uppity judgment from fans of the skating of Meryl Davis, I'll say that much. However, as wonderful as Tessa's lines are, it's where her blade meets the ice that she buries both Meryl and Charlie, and as wonderful as that is her body in space is a thing of beauty - her control, her timing, her awareness, her stretch through her core and to the tips of her fingers, and her musicality.
Just watch the feet - not on the big moves but the in betweens.
Everybody does a little toe pick scampering and two footing but these two are in a class by themselves. After the full program gif comparison is uploaded, there will be smaller gifs of a number of intersticials in DW's program where it's like they just fucking forget to stay on one foot. They're the only ice dancers I've seen who actually randomly walk.
Continuing tomorrow.
Isn't walking on ice a skill taught in the Snowplow Sam classes?
ReplyDeleteYou're using choppy gifs are your unit of analysis. Have you ever seen these two teams live?
ReplyDeleteSorry, the "gifs" aren't choppy in DW's skating, the skating is. I can chop up Michelle Kwan into 25 gifs and she'll never look choppy. VM don't look choppy.
DeleteThe judges aren't supposed to judge on the sweeping impression, they're supposed to analyze and breakdown the components and elements and they even use replay (gifs).
I'm using the equivalent of replay, same as the judges. I'm looking to see where the feet are, where the edges actually are.
The judges use technology in training. They use clips so they get used to seeing what a properly done move looks like so they can recognize it live.
What exactly in the gifs do you think is misrepresenting DW? What judged component or element do you think is distorted? CoP is very specific. Maintain an edge out of a twizzle. Does the live performance miraculously make that appear? Does live miraculously keep Meryl off both her feet? Does live make Tessa Virtue look like she sucks?
What's being misrepresented in gifs.
Gifs are slices. They're not chopping up the actual skating. The skating in the gifs isn't distorted. It just allows you to focus on each part of the program and how it was skated. That's how the sport is judged.
She's actually using video for her analysis. The gifs are only to illustrate, and it's not like the video isn't out there on youtube. It's not like she can fake what's going on when it can be referenced back against the video. Just once, watch a D/W program and just watch what they're feet are doing. Lot's of two-footed skating and flats there amongst other things.
DeleteLive, the differences between V/M and D/W are even more apparant, IMO. You also get a sense of things like pattern, ice coverage, and amplitude.
Yeah, it's weird they're asking about "live" like somehow a gif is putting DW's feet where they're not supposed to be and chopping up their run of blade.
DeleteI guess the important thing of "live" is being bowled over with sensory impressions and that's what DW fans prefer to be judged. It can't be real speed, run of blade and sustained edges, as live, those show up VM as superior.
But instead of "turning it around" which is a feeble defense - it's a non-defense, actually, which of course reveals that there's no argument for DW over VM - how about you specifically take up the case of your favorites.
So far its "learn the rules - three twizzles don't automatically beat two!' Yeah, we know. Let's look at what about these "two twizzles" and the hop intro is earning level 4. Is there a problem with looking at the validity of the rating?
And it's - OMG the judges are judging right because they're the judges!!
And - oh that marching section in Funny Face was much worse than Charlie and Meryl dropping their free leg's toe pick onto the ice all the time in between stroking and it was a billion times worse than Charlie always lunging on two feet or Meryl forgetting she's not backstage wearing her trainers so both feet are doing a move meant for one.
The Funny Face slam reveals contempt for VM period. It doesn't support DW at all. And it also displays something rampant on the other side of this discussion - entitled ignorance.
One more note on V/M and D/W live. Where things REALLY get apparent that V/M are leagues ahead of D/W is when you're watching both teams on the ice at the same time in a warm up or practice situation. D/W just pale in comparison.
DeleteThe V/M gifs are choppy as well. You can still see the difference.
DeleteThe most obvious difference is in the skating between the two teams, which is the point. The gifs don't distort where the blade is, what the feet are doing, the mechanics of a transition, the technique of the skaters.
DeleteSince the choppy issue was brought up though, why are they so much blurrier than the gifs you see on tumblr? Is it a blogspot issue? or the quality of the source video? Obviously not a huge issue when the video is available for anyone who wants to see, but I'm thinking DW ubers don't have the patience to really watch what is happening in these. That is if they have eyes at all, which is questionable.
Delete^Not meant as criticism - it's so awesome what you're doing here OC.
DeleteIt could be the quality of the on-line gif creator I'm using.
DeleteAlso, "they're the only ice dancers I've seen who actually randomly walk." Sorry, that award goes to the fake marching section of Funny Face. Which Marina and D/W lampooned in Ice, Sweat, and Tears.
ReplyDeleteOh really? The marching piece was "random"? It wasn't specific choreoraphy?
DeleteWould you like to look at a ratio of who does more two-foot moves when they're supposed to be skating - VM or DW? Really? Would you like to penalize VM for marching for a second and a half of specific choreography, in unison, in a year DW did Die Fleudermaus and pirhouetted and lunged through the whole thing?
And you see that as on par with constantly putting a foot down, walking through turns, keeping your skates in the ice while jerking your body up? So IOW to you, choreography is the same as doing a flawed skating move? That's really a great scam DW is working. Any time they do it wrong it's choreography.
When VM are stroking they don't start rowing, pushing, doing two-foot hops. That's what "random" means. Is that entry to the twizzles a 'marching' section? How come it's just thrown in there amidst the rest of the hurly burly turning and flailing.
Furthermore the difference with VM is they skate their programs. They can afford a second of marching. This is quite different than DW who use every trick under the sun to avoid skating their programs, whether it's through actual choreography (let's compare the Giselle in place hopping to the VM 'marching' that actually travels - in fact I'm going to find that segment and compare it to what DW do - see how often they've got two feet on the ice in that - if you saw DW imitate VM I can understand your thinking it was fake and bad, so it's probably clearer to show real skaters doing it). Giselle did the iconic "in place" hopping on top of a program that was all hopping skipping and jumping. VM "marched" in a program they otherwise skated.
I can see you not appreciating these distinctions. DW fans don't want to discuss how DW skate - AT ALL.
Oh choppy gifs that unfairly only make DW look choppy! But not WP and VM! "Live" Meryl and Charlie have sustained blade run and great edges! It's the gifs that put Meryl's both feet on the ice! It's the gifs that make DW look sloppy! It's the gifs that make them look like they're hopping, pulling and flailing all the time.
That's what DW fans want to talk about. The unfairness of replay. How VM suck. How VM suck some more. How the rules make two twizzles just as good as three as long as you hop first. How someone used the semantics wrong - even though people coming in here refuse to deal with the substance of the issue.
Around and around and around. Tell me what DW are like to you LIVE that these gifs don't show. Relate it to CoP.
9:04 I'm going to guess that you've reblogged that charming gifset that is making the rounds of Tumblr. The Scott Moir Hates Everything meme is old. Time to move on. We have.
DeleteAside from one fan (and trust me, we'd like to duct tape her fingers as well), I don't see Virtue/Moir fans personally attacking Meryl and Charlie. We're not fans of their SKATING. The purpose of the posts here it to point out the weaknesses and flaws in their SKATING.
Let's not make it personal.
Yes 9:33, the gifs aren't my "unit of analysis" the video is. In a real competition a video replay in an even smaller, more targeted unit will be referred to to check an edge in a jump or footwork. That's in the actual sport. The result of that scrutiny goes into the protocol.
DeleteBut I can see DW fans feeling that scrutiny of DW's skating via replay and targeted focus is so unfair, since this isn't something DW are subject to when they compete. Only VM.
Delete9:54 Why can't we critique Meryl and Charlie's ugly personalities as well?
Delete"Also, "they're the only ice dancers I've seen who actually randomly walk." Sorry, that award goes to the fake marching section of Funny Face. Which Marina and D/W lampooned in Ice, Sweat, and Tears. "
DeleteHow do you know they weren't lampooning Audrey? She's so lame.
"Tessa's lines aren't THAT good." Ahahahahaha. In this instance, I think people (D/W fans or not) are deluding themselves. Certain aspects of skating I might be willing to concede to Meryl and Charlie, but lines? No way. Virtue ranks up there with Gordeeva and Klimova when it comes to lines. Aren't that good? In comparison to whom, a real ballerina? Because that's the only person who will be better than Tessa Virtue today re: lines.
ReplyDelete"Multiple unsupported pirhouettes perfectly tracking Scott's (one foot) glide into a running edge."
ReplyDeleteI keep coming back to this part of the program over and over because Tessa does it so well. <3
I honestly think that some people like to tear down this team because a) they're naturally talented people who worked hard to hone that talent and b) Scott pisses people off with his off-the-cuff remarks. I think that some people resent that the connection, expression, presentation (that comes so easily to V/M) + hard work trumps D/W's efforts. And D/W work very hard. Some people don't like the ease V/M have with ice dance, and they don't like V/M's good fortune.
I think that's a lot of it both outside skating and inside. Over the years there have been skaters who've been pissed off by the success of other skaters for whom things appeared to come easily, even when the skaters are in different disciplines.
DeleteSomething just occurred to me--your blog suits the purposes of the sham. Because if it didn't, the V/M camp could take you down because of breach of copyright, not defamation. Because you didn't take those pictures of Jessica/Scott/Tessa/Cassandra that's on display.
ReplyDeleteWow - good to know the stuff that just pops into your brain is fact to you without even bothering to google. Something to bear in mind with any further comments you make.
DeleteFacebook is public domain. Jesus Christ. How out of it do you have to be not to know that? If I can see it, I can publish it. Furthermore, if I can't see it, but someone ELSE can see it, and that someone shows me, I can publish it.
What else don't you know if something that basic not only escaped your attention, but you didn't even bother to check it after you thought of it?
"Furthermore, if I can't see it, but someone ELSE can see it, and that someone shows me, I can publish it."
DeleteThis is exactly what the sham has depended on from the beginning. Yeah, they all had open facebooks for a while, but a "closed" facebook (or any other social media) is still public domain. They sure as hell know that and they want all their stuff shared around, which it always has been and way before this blog existed. If they were really and truly concerned with privacy issues regarding their "romances" they wouldn't be posing and posting anything anywhere ever.
I just love their little performances they put on for the public. Is it private or real? Hell no.
OC, I'm the anon at 3:21 AM. I didn't mean the comment as an attack on you. I was honestly just thinking out loud. I will have to bow to your superior Facebook knowledge, because I'm not familiar with Facebook at all. No need to swear at me, okay? (This is what bothers me sometimes about online posts--you lose the nuance of voice and tone.)
DeleteI should have worded my initial post better, as I certainly didn't intend it as fact. I was aiming to speak of it as possibilities. Obviously, I failed spectacularly...
DeleteI understand and don't want to preach at you but it's so easy to CHECK something like that. That's something I find frustrating, that's all.
DeleteThe owners of facebook don't want anything to be private. They want every single thing to be public and then of course, as everything on the web works, they want to monetize all of it in obvious ways and less obvious ways. Of course there is pushback from facebook users who don't want default settings to be public, so the main thing facebook does for those people is to make them aware of what they need to do if they really want to restrict access to facebook.
The ground zero of facebook is everything on it is public domain. Unless someone has a facebook that only they can see, everything on their facebook has a chance of getting seen by strangers because anybody who has access to their facebook is perfectly entitled to repost it or publish it or send it to anyone else. So if they want privacy people absolutely have to trust every single person on their friends list not to show anything to anyone not also on the friends list. This is well known. I think even people with only a few dozen friends and family on their friends list can be sure their stuff isn't getting around.
And then consider being a public figure - a celebrity even among your friends and family and you choose to have fans among your facebook friends. You know exactly what they'll do with the "private" photos you display - they'll share them "privately" with other fans via email or private image hosting, thus having it both ways. Protecting, they think, their friend status with the celeb, but also enjoying the status among other fans as the person with access to photos. The celeb knows exactly what they're doing when they keep fans as friends on facebook.
I believe the sham has used the blog. As long as the blog is out there, may as well make sure certain photos get to the blog and then fake react like - OMG, look how our privacy is violated - no wonder we need to sham. It's happened very obviously at least twice.
The sticking point, though, is there's no copyright issue, and even if they didn't want the photos published here they couldn't do anything about it.
Above should read 'can't' be sure their stuff isn't getting around.
DeleteI see the D/W fans are here as well. LMAO at people saying Tessa's lines aren't good. What do you call Meryl's lines then? If Tessa's lines aren't good, Meryl's are out-of-this-world ugly. Tessa is second to Usova for having the best lines in history imo. People who are saying the opposite are just blind or delusional. Don't even get me started on posture, carriage & edges between the two ladies. Tessa is currently the best female ice dancer in the world & one of the all-time bests. End of story.
ReplyDelete8:17, I was also going to point out what you did about Tessa and Maya Usova. Maya Usova, who was a Bolshoi-trained ballerina, is to this day considered to be the holy grail when it comes to lines, toe point, and extension among other things. When it comes to these areas, Tessa is considered to be second only to Usova by a lot of people.
DeleteAnother note on Tessa and her ability. Last year at worlds, a group of judges were overheard discussing V/M and D/W. You know which one is considered to be the best one out of the four? Tessa.
Good points anon at 8:48 am. I agree that Tessa is the most talented dancer out of the four. In terms of skating, I don't doubt that Tessa is the one out of the 4 that can hold positions the longest because of her uncanny balance abilities but I also think that Scott is underestimated. Post 2010 - all of the FDs have focused on Tessa and I think Scott has done a wonderful job in showing off his partner. Another trait that I admire from Scott is the ability to be coached and to improve. My two cents...
DeleteScott is wonderful at blade level and as far as his ability to vary momentum and tempo inside the phrasing of a segment of choreoraphy, he can do almost anything with any part of his body - a big move or a small gesture, and in the character of the style of the dance. He is the polar opposite of Charlie White, who struggles with control. A lot of DW choreoraphy works around that issue of Charlie's.
DeleteI do though, think that Tessa's technique might be underestimated. There's a tumblr of her doing a single axel in a show and even that is spot on. Perfect placement of the shoulders and torso, perfect movement of the arms, straight off a clean forward outside edge, complete rotation and down on a clean back outside edge. Scott is so unusually dynamic for a guy - he has great flexibility himself and handles his body fluidly while maintaining a beautiful run of blade - that people might believe he's better than Tessa. I think they're perfectly matched as skaters too.
Anon at 8:48 AM, I'm curious about what you posted re: Usova. It's normal for the Soviet/Russian skaters to have ballet as part of training, but this is the first I've heard that she was Bolshoi-trained. Wow.
DeleteAlso, this is more of a semantics issue, but did you mean that Maya was a student at the Bolshoi (instead of 'ballerina')? Because I think the term implies (in general) someone who's made it professionally as a ballet dancer. And I think that some ballet purists only use the term for exceptional dancers, like Fonteyn, Makarova etc.
@3:56--I was using ballerina more in the colloquial, looser sense of the word.
DeleteIt was mentioned many, many moons ago in an interview or during a competition that Usova had trained with the Bolshoi. Sasha Zhulin started off as a singles skater, but after a bad knee injury, wasn't able to do the jumps anymore. Either he quit skating or switched to ice dance. I think they may have tried him with several partners, but nothing really clicked. Usova was training with the Bolshoi at the time, but had done figure skating when she was younger. Fortunately, someone had the absolutely brilliant idea for them to try out together. What a lucky, fortunate day for ice dancing and ice dance fans. I think Usova was 15 and Zhulin 16 at the time, although it may have been 16/17.
Wow. I am always very curious whenever ballet and skating more fully intersect. I remember reading that Nina Ananiashvili used to skate singles when she was younger, but gave it up because she already had a lot on her plate with ballet and school.
DeleteWho is holding down V/M and why? Is the USFS paying the ISU for high D/W scores?
ReplyDeleteIt's more subtle than that. Politicking is going on in every moment of practice, every judges meeting, every article written (USFS owns icenetwork), the choice of skaters to use in ISU training videos, the rhythms selected for compulsory patterns. Dropping CDs was a huge benefit to American ice dancers and hurt European dancers (and VM, probably as collateral, not intentionally). Including hip hop as an option for juniors in 2013? Using So You Think You Can Dance as an example of the hip hop they want to see? Whom would that be intended to benefit, if not American ice dancers? When the ISU talked about wanting uplifting programs whose storylines didn't need to be explained to the audience (whether that became a rule or not), that was clearly a move against the Russian style.
DeleteThe focus right now is: DW get better PCS in the SD because they carried the polka feeling throughout the dance (nevermind I don't remember anyone getting dinged for not carrying a rhumba feeling throughout last year). DW are getting high marks in the FD because doing clean elements with good speed is the most important thing. When the Russians were winning, having good lines and extension was the most important thing and it didn't matter if they spent half the program posing.
The skating establishment could just as easily flip the script and decide the most important components were choreography and performance/execution. That creative new elements that interpreted the music were the most important, but only if you have great lines and posture. Put VM in all the instructional videos, and focus the judges' meetings on how innovative they are.
Why is it the way it is? Probably because US has no medal contenders anywhere else, realistically. I understand DW fans believe Wagner is still preferred over DW, and they'd drop DW in a hot second if she won Worlds. That's probably so. But with no pairs or singles skaters on the World podium for several years now, and Lysacek not likely to come back, DW are IT as far as gold medal contenders, so USFS will focus on ice dance, while Canada will spread its support around.
Dance used to be a joke in the US. Girls only signed up if they couldn't jump, and guys were so not interested that they all had to buy partners from Europe. As Asia took over singles and pairs, and Russia was on an overall decline, USA's considerable resources took greater interest in dance, first on the junior circuit, now at the highest level. That means everything from good skaters wanting to do ice dance, to increased funding, to increasing their voice within ice dance discussions in the ISU.
i wouldn't be surprised if they are. im not saying its true im just saying its possible :P
Delete"DW are getting high marks in the FD because doing clean elements with good speed is the most important thing."
DeleteHere's what's so frustrating: D/W aren't doing the actual elements as fast or as clean as V/M are. It's especially evident if you have fancam versions of performances that were shot from a fixed perspective. D/W have their flurry of activity that makes them look faster and busier out there, but when they hit an element--footwork, lifts, the damned recycled twizzles--they lose speed in the element. As soon as the element is done, they're off in another flurry of activity. V/M maintain their speed in their elements. It's evident in all of the elements, but IMO, especially so in footwork sequences. V/M execute so much more cleanly as well. Pay close attention to D/W's elements--they have a tendency to be sloppy. It's a million and one tiny errors in execution that should be adding up but never seem to because the judges just ignore them all.
9:54pm - you took the words right off my keyboard - DW aren't doing the elements as fast and clean as VM are so why are they rewarded as if they're faster and cleaner? As for carrying the polka feeling throughout Giselle, God in heaven, what is 'polka' about that choreo mess leading into the twizzles, what the hell is polka about the twizzles themselves in any way whatsoever, and what is remotely polka feeling about that final lift? Furthermore, it's easier to do "clean and fast" elements if juniors can also do them, which is the case with DW's lifts, it's easy to do something that builds off a leap or a pull versus a blade, and if a 18th Worlds place finisher can do the hop into a two-set twizzle pass maybe the ISU should rethink the level of difficulty, especially when the 18th finishing team using that entrance uses a lot of other non-skating tricks to finesse the undeveloped skating skills of the female half of the team.
DeleteThere are, indeed, a million and one sloppy, unfinished components to what DW do - balance checks, two-foots and steadying themselves - some built into the choreoraphy and some not. When I see Charlie and Meryl with both feet flat on the ice in between stroking, just to push themselves along, when Meryl is constantly doing running steps and at other times she'll transition from one move to another with walking steps - how is this not reflected in the protocols? There is no way their pcs should be even in the ballpark of VM'S. VM are skating exactly as CoP demands ice dance be skated, and the judges are simply ignoring it. I believe the ISU is definitely complicit in favoring the US because of the pattern dances this past season and next - check out the amount of skipping in place in the Finn step - and how the polka "hold" is side by side -this isn't an accident.
Even with the huge helping hand given the American team by the ISU both programs contained very little skating and a whole lot that ignored the style of the dance. And where they did have the style of the dance, the style of the dance should be SKATED, not hopped and skipped.
Another great piece from Jacquelyn Thayer, yay!
ReplyDeletehttp://stepsequences.blogspot.ca/2013/03/modern-and-contemporary-dance-2012-13.html