I love the way you described Tessa and Scott's program (from a previous blog entry):
"Their program flows like a spool of thread unwinding"
A beautiful description. Even going back to their junior years, I think their programs could be described this way. VM are a once-in-a-lifetime talent. The ISU has to be deliberately ignoring their skating when it comes to judging, it's impossible they don't realize what Tessa and Scott are to the sport. For some reason, they (ISU) simply decided they weren't interested. Politics have trumped superb skating skills and delivery.
Look familiar? Love the knee slide at the end to hide the loss of speed.
So far, DW’s fantastic, best in the world level 4 twizzles have also been used by 18th place Gilles/Poirier and a guy who had never ice danced before and couldn’t podium at such prestigious events as the Golden Spin of Zagreb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Golden_Spin_of_Zagreb#Ice_dancing
During the same season, Marina gave these twizzles to her world champions Davis and White! Bwah.
I watched the FD link out of curiosity, and was surprised that it wasn't all that bad, actually. Jana has beautiful extension and positions, and some of the lifts were actually decent to look at.
4:58 -- Jana is a good ice dancer. The problem was Fedor, who in his late twenties wanted to try ice dancing and mommy found him a world-class dancer. They were also of course very fortunate to have the genius choreography of Marina and all of her political clout behind them. If it weren't for Fedor getting injured, they could have easily made it to the top 10, if not higher. Look what Marina was able to do with DW. And Jana is very good.
Although Fedor has often seemed a free spirit in terms of his skating career, Jana was the one on the hunt for a partner. I think she skated with two prospects and decided on Fedor. It was always going to be a crapshoot.
3:37 here. Jana was great (European champion and world bronze). Fedor had never ice danced before and had even been retired from singles for many years. I'm tres amused by the fact that mama knew exactly what set of twizzles would be the easiest for him to master. DW should actually be embarrassed.
"I'm tres amused by the fact that mama knew exactly what set of twizzles would be the easiest for him to master. DW should actually be embarrassed."
Ikr. Lol
And for some obscure reason, as blog pointed out and I had never realized before, those twizzles performed by DW have been deemed worth a higher value with every passing season, in spite of zero variations or improvements. Actually, haven't they gotten sloppier? But now they get more points than any twizzles done by VM. Go figure.
It was pointed out by someone in the comments that the "hop" was added after 2010, and it's the 'hop' that's allowed those twizzles to stay not just level four, but be declared the best in the world based on what exactly? The fact that the second set slows down in its travel across the ice? The fact that their 'hop' into it is sloppy? That their legs are bent and bodies out of alignment especially early in the season (despite doing them for years) and they still get monster scores? That they often - as at Worlds 2011 - do them miles apart, definitely further than the criteria for the highest GOE?
The fact that teams with a partner who struggles with skating skills grab these twizzles as their best option of what's available hasn't inspired the ISU to reconsider them as Level 4?
The fact that DW don't bother to phrase these twizzles or execute them remotely in the style of the dance they're supposedly doing, that program-to-program they're done the same way, same transition between, same arms, same rhythm (which is no rhythm, just bombast) doesn't deter from considering DW the best? W&P actually twizzled in the character of the style of their dances this year even though The Statue was the same type of lyrical adagio category DW have done themselves, yet they managed to style them very differently from the SD twizzles. DW leap and grin when the twizzles are done - and that's enough? Why do the other skaters even bother?
One of my feelings/guesses about Tarasova is she's a very clever woman. She knows VM are better. I'd bet she admired how well Marina matched Strauss to the same program DW have been doing every year. Put tails on Charlie so even more stuff is flying out there pirhouette your face off, leap and do non-waltz twizzles and lifts and voila - you should have won!
It's the type of clever I think a lot of coaches would like to pull off - great problem solving of a team's deficiencies, and I can imagine TT wishing DW had pulled it off.
My take on Tarasova these days is that she wants to remain relevant in ice dance and figure skating. Personally, I haven't found her recent contributions through choreography/coaching to be anything to write home about. I thought B/S's FD would have been better without the cut to Tosca that she suggested. I think she has weighed Asada down with programs that are too heavy for her.
Anyway, in a bid to remain relevent and have her opinion heard, I think TAT runs her mouth a lot.
She's an icon but she's also a contemporary of Marina Zoueva's and Marina is younger and more successful, or at least more relevant. Not only does she have Olympic gold medalists from two different generations and two different countries, Marina also frequently is called upon to choreograph pairs programs - something TAT used to do far more frequently in the early 1990s. (Choreographing for a pair on a for-hire basis in one's own time isn't the same as having a separate business of your own run on the same schedule as your partner business).
So one wonders how others inside the sport view Marina and her success, especially as she has become so successful while remaining her own person.
Well, because the ISU has decided that DW's twizzles will continue to merit the highest level while remaining unchanged year-to-year, while their competitors must do harder and harder twizzle passes just to keep pace with DW who are standing still, this twizzle designation has been a boon to ice dancers of questionable ability who get to adopt DW's twizzles for themselves and automatically get a Level 4.
"По моему мнению, выиграть должны были американцы, - считает Тарасова. - Их произвольная программа несравненно лучше, виртуозней, музыкальней. Она скоростная, уникальная, легкая. Я проработала много лет, имею право на свое собственное мнение. Даже хотела написать в ISU письмо. Ведь видно глазу, кто лучше и насколько. Я рада за канадцев, что они восстановились, но сегодня они не чемпионы".
"In my opinion, the Americans had to win - said Tarasova - Their free program much better, virtuosity, musicality. This speed, unique, easy. I worked for many years, I have a right to their own opinion. Even I wanted to write a letter to the ISU . it meets the eye, who is better and how much. I'm glad for the Canadians, they have recovered, but today they are the champions. "
Well, it seems that hopping and twizzling dazzled also Tarasova.. who gave this year a standing ovation to Carmen.
Well it doesn't surprise me that Tarasova didn't enjoy Funny Face. As usual - did the media bother asking what Tarasova thought of the short dance that year at Worlds? Probably not. To be honest - I'd rather have Zhulin's praise over Tarasova's..
If you ask the gymnastics/figure skating blogger who interviewed PJ Kwong, Scott can't shake his hips at all and must suck in bed.
And his latest is that VM's stroking has regressed since Mahler. Their stroking has actually become so much more powerful since Mahler that Mahler now looks like a junior program. But this is how figure skating "experts" write. All you need to be an expert is to have an interest. You don't need to become informed, or even use your eyes.
OC 7:01 That is exactly the kind of lies all the US skating media has been putting out. Dissing VM's skills - as if by saying so it's true. Then stupid bloggers (like Aunt Joyce) run with it. Clearly, "letting the skating speak for itself" has not turned out to be a good strategy against corruption.
I think that Scott can shake his hips better than some people. There are instances/parts where he looks a little stiff to me, but his Latin expression is miles ahead of his peers (coughCharliecough).
I don't think V/M's stroking has regressed. But the way that the lyrical Mahler was choreographed, in my opinion, showcased the stroking/skating skills of the V/M--how should I say it-- quite easily, more obviously. Their programs only increased in complexity since then. My private guess is that AJ probably feels that a program like Mahler would be the best fit for V/M.
Finally, while Aunt Joyce is definitely interested in skating, and is most probably rooting for D/W this quad (likely because of the prospect of a 1st American ice dance gold), I don't think I have ever seen him claim that he is an expert. He's an opinionated blogger, that's it. He has biases and blinders, just like the rest of us.
Yes he does and that's what's being noted about him.
I think the difference between the stroking in Mahler and the stroking of Virtue Moir since is so enormous that Mahler can no longer be called the better showcase for their stroking. The stroking in Carmen is miles more powerful. The stroking in their show programs after the Olympics was miles more powerful.
Ice dance is more than the free dance. It's also the short program. VM have skated a waltz that shows off their powerful stroking that gets them across the rink in three strokes. They've skated rumba patterns that show it. They skated a waltz also in 2010 that showed off their deep, powerful, fast basic stroking.
Mahler was "soft" and lyrical, a style that people associate with stroking and gliding. However I believe there was just as much stroking in their subsequent free programs and it was so notably more powerful that I don't think program style can excuse someone not noticing this.
I love the way you described Tessa and Scott's program (from a previous blog entry):
ReplyDelete"Their program flows like a spool of thread unwinding"
A beautiful description. Even going back to their junior years, I think their programs could be described this way. VM are a once-in-a-lifetime talent. The ISU has to be deliberately ignoring their skating when it comes to judging, it's impossible they don't realize what Tessa and Scott are to the sport. For some reason, they (ISU) simply decided they weren't interested. Politics have trumped superb skating skills and delivery.
I'm really worried..
ReplyDeleteI had to share this, because it made me think of OC… I was randomly watching videos the other day and came across this:
ReplyDeleteJana/Fedor twizzles SD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZsgiCc0qrAk#t=137s
FD twizzles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNaBZWr31SI&feature=player_detailpage#t=71s
Look familiar?
Love the knee slide at the end to hide the loss of speed.
So far, DW’s fantastic, best in the world level 4 twizzles have also been used by 18th place Gilles/Poirier and a guy who had never ice danced before and couldn’t podium at such prestigious events as the Golden Spin of Zagreb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Golden_Spin_of_Zagreb#Ice_dancing
During the same season, Marina gave these twizzles to her world champions Davis and White! Bwah.
I watched the FD link out of curiosity, and was surprised that it wasn't all that bad, actually. Jana has beautiful extension and positions, and some of the lifts were actually decent to look at.
Delete4:58 -- Jana is a good ice dancer. The problem was Fedor, who in his late twenties wanted to try ice dancing and mommy found him a world-class dancer. They were also of course very fortunate to have the genius choreography of Marina and all of her political clout behind them. If it weren't for Fedor getting injured, they could have easily made it to the top 10, if not higher. Look what Marina was able to do with DW. And Jana is very good.
DeleteAlthough Fedor has often seemed a free spirit in terms of his skating career, Jana was the one on the hunt for a partner. I think she skated with two prospects and decided on Fedor. It was always going to be a crapshoot.
Delete3:37 here. Jana was great (European champion and world bronze). Fedor had never ice danced before and had even been retired from singles for many years. I'm tres amused by the fact that mama knew exactly what set of twizzles would be the easiest for him to master. DW should actually be embarrassed.
ReplyDeleteCan you imagine if Jana had paired up with Devidas Stagnuinas? They would have made a lovely pair...no offense to Isabella Tobias...
Delete"I'm tres amused by the fact that mama knew exactly what set of twizzles would be the easiest for him to master. DW should actually be embarrassed."
DeleteIkr. Lol
And for some obscure reason, as blog pointed out and I had never realized before, those twizzles performed by DW have been deemed worth a higher value with every passing season, in spite of zero variations or improvements. Actually, haven't they gotten sloppier? But now they get more points than any twizzles done by VM. Go figure.
When you know huge scores are going to be thrown at you no matter what, there's no incentive to try to be clean.
Delete*headdesk*
It was pointed out by someone in the comments that the "hop" was added after 2010, and it's the 'hop' that's allowed those twizzles to stay not just level four, but be declared the best in the world based on what exactly? The fact that the second set slows down in its travel across the ice? The fact that their 'hop' into it is sloppy? That their legs are bent and bodies out of alignment especially early in the season (despite doing them for years) and they still get monster scores? That they often - as at Worlds 2011 - do them miles apart, definitely further than the criteria for the highest GOE?
DeleteThe fact that teams with a partner who struggles with skating skills grab these twizzles as their best option of what's available hasn't inspired the ISU to reconsider them as Level 4?
The fact that DW don't bother to phrase these twizzles or execute them remotely in the style of the dance they're supposedly doing, that program-to-program they're done the same way, same transition between, same arms, same rhythm (which is no rhythm, just bombast) doesn't deter from considering DW the best? W&P actually twizzled in the character of the style of their dances this year even though The Statue was the same type of lyrical adagio category DW have done themselves, yet they managed to style them very differently from the SD twizzles. DW leap and grin when the twizzles are done - and that's enough? Why do the other skaters even bother?
One of my feelings/guesses about Tarasova is she's a very clever woman. She knows VM are better. I'd bet she admired how well Marina matched Strauss to the same program DW have been doing every year. Put tails on Charlie so even more stuff is flying out there pirhouette your face off, leap and do non-waltz twizzles and lifts and voila - you should have won!
It's the type of clever I think a lot of coaches would like to pull off - great problem solving of a team's deficiencies, and I can imagine TT wishing DW had pulled it off.
My take on Tarasova these days is that she wants to remain relevant in ice dance and figure skating. Personally, I haven't found her recent contributions through choreography/coaching to be anything to write home about. I thought B/S's FD would have been better without the cut to Tosca that she suggested. I think she has weighed Asada down with programs that are too heavy for her.
DeleteAnyway, in a bid to remain relevent and have her opinion heard, I think TAT runs her mouth a lot.
She's an icon but she's also a contemporary of Marina Zoueva's and Marina is younger and more successful, or at least more relevant. Not only does she have Olympic gold medalists from two different generations and two different countries, Marina also frequently is called upon to choreograph pairs programs - something TAT used to do far more frequently in the early 1990s. (Choreographing for a pair on a for-hire basis in one's own time isn't the same as having a separate business of your own run on the same schedule as your partner business).
DeleteSo one wonders how others inside the sport view Marina and her success, especially as she has become so successful while remaining her own person.
Well, because the ISU has decided that DW's twizzles will continue to merit the highest level while remaining unchanged year-to-year, while their competitors must do harder and harder twizzle passes just to keep pace with DW who are standing still, this twizzle designation has been a boon to ice dancers of questionable ability who get to adopt DW's twizzles for themselves and automatically get a Level 4.
DeleteTarasova from last year programs:
ReplyDeletehttp://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20120401/589082464.html
"По моему мнению, выиграть должны были американцы, - считает Тарасова. - Их произвольная программа несравненно лучше, виртуозней, музыкальней. Она скоростная, уникальная, легкая. Я проработала много лет, имею право на свое собственное мнение. Даже хотела написать в ISU письмо. Ведь видно глазу, кто лучше и насколько. Я рада за канадцев, что они восстановились, но сегодня они не чемпионы".
"In my opinion, the Americans had to win - said Tarasova - Their free program much better, virtuosity, musicality. This speed, unique, easy. I worked for many years, I have a right to their own opinion. Even I wanted to write a letter to the ISU . it meets the eye, who is better and how much. I'm glad for the Canadians, they have recovered, but today they are the champions. "
Well, it seems that hopping and twizzling dazzled also Tarasova.. who gave this year a standing ovation to Carmen.
What the hell.
Well it doesn't surprise me that Tarasova didn't enjoy Funny Face. As usual - did the media bother asking what Tarasova thought of the short dance that year at Worlds? Probably not. To be honest - I'd rather have Zhulin's praise over Tarasova's..
DeleteWell it just reinforces again that people inside the skating world speak from emotion as much as understanding skating as a sport.
DeleteJust re-watched the 2012 SD...Scott Moir can shake his hips like nobody's business...smokin'!
ReplyDeleteIf you ask the gymnastics/figure skating blogger who interviewed PJ Kwong, Scott can't shake his hips at all and must suck in bed.
ReplyDeleteAnd his latest is that VM's stroking has regressed since Mahler. Their stroking has actually become so much more powerful since Mahler that Mahler now looks like a junior program. But this is how figure skating "experts" write. All you need to be an expert is to have an interest. You don't need to become informed, or even use your eyes.
OC 7:01 That is exactly the kind of lies all the US skating media has been putting out. Dissing VM's skills - as if by saying so it's true. Then stupid bloggers (like Aunt Joyce) run with it. Clearly, "letting the skating speak for itself" has not turned out to be a good strategy against corruption.
DeleteLOL Maybe someone should ask Tessa if Scott sucks in bed.
DeleteI think that Scott can shake his hips better than some people. There are instances/parts where he looks a little stiff to me, but his Latin expression is miles ahead of his peers (coughCharliecough).
DeleteI don't think V/M's stroking has regressed. But the way that the lyrical Mahler was choreographed, in my opinion, showcased the stroking/skating skills of the V/M--how should I say it-- quite easily, more obviously. Their programs only increased in complexity since then. My private guess is that AJ probably feels that a program like Mahler would be the best fit for V/M.
Finally, while Aunt Joyce is definitely interested in skating, and is most probably rooting for D/W this quad (likely because of the prospect of a 1st American ice dance gold), I don't think I have ever seen him claim that he is an expert. He's an opinionated blogger, that's it. He has biases and blinders, just like the rest of us.
Yes he does and that's what's being noted about him.
DeleteI think the difference between the stroking in Mahler and the stroking of Virtue Moir since is so enormous that Mahler can no longer be called the better showcase for their stroking. The stroking in Carmen is miles more powerful. The stroking in their show programs after the Olympics was miles more powerful.
Ice dance is more than the free dance. It's also the short program. VM have skated a waltz that shows off their powerful stroking that gets them across the rink in three strokes. They've skated rumba patterns that show it. They skated a waltz also in 2010 that showed off their deep, powerful, fast basic stroking.
Mahler was "soft" and lyrical, a style that people associate with stroking and gliding. However I believe there was just as much stroking in their subsequent free programs and it was so notably more powerful that I don't think program style can excuse someone not noticing this.