Eta: Here they are, thanks to 6:23 a.m. from the comments below:
The above were gifed by neverendingdream.tumblr.com. If you're in the mood for a good ice dance-related cry, head on over there. Lots and lots of VM to DW comparison gifs.
Below are my gifs from the individual event, and the wtf-ery in Scheherazade continues to impress. Look at whatever the fuck this is below.*
This is junk. It's okay in small doses, as a final accent or flourish, but every time we break down one of Davis White's programs we get nothing but dumbed down elements and filler crap like this. Meryl switches legs as she's dragging on the side of her boot, and my favorite part is how after she lifts that right leg, it dead weights on back down. Why bother with control when gravity can do all the work? Of course Charlie's bent over so Meryl's arm can do that reach back hook around his neck. There certainly aren't any more efficient holds for this move, right? But don't let Meryl's mess distract you from Charlie - he's FUBAR too. When he assists her back up, his posture is ass and he's moving as if he's got his head/hair stuck caught in her costume, even though he doesn't. That's just how he rolls with posture any time he's not standing straight up.
10:57 AM in the comments section under this post directed the blog's attention to this gif below. (Thanks very much, 10:57 AM) It's Hubbell/Donohue doing a move that, in its contours, is somewhat similar to DW's above, except not similar at all because Maddy is skating. Compare her edge to Meryl's, and stay tuned for Doris & Co. to explain why sliding around on your boot after half-assing a short, wobbly flat off a cursory, half-assed inside edge is a whole lot more difficult than doing the nice clear, clean edge change H&D execute below. And of course, those wizards of physics will explain why reaching back and hooking your arm around your partner's neck so he has to make like a hunchback when you pull this off is more impressive than neatly balancing yourself on his leg while he skates as well. Why doesn't Zach snow plow like Charlie? Don't they want to win Olympic gold? Please also note, as also emphasized in the comments section beneath this post, that Zachary is tracking her change edge with his own change edge, while, mind you, changing the orientation of his upper body mid-move. Please, Doris Pulaski, explain why, according to the standards and criteria spelled out the rules by which this "sport" is judged, Davis White's junkyard piece of claptrap is more difficult and demonstrates skating skill superior to the version executed by Hubbell Donohue. Is it because Charlie, albeit on two wide-planted feet, risks getting his windpipe strangled by Meryl's arm?
Here are the Sochi fd twizzles from the ice dance competition.
Some twizzle snapshots:
 |
| The Entrance |
 |
| The entrance |
 |
| After first set, prior to second set. |
 |
| Look at them. Can you blame VM fans for being so jealous? |
Here's something I like very much from Seasons:
Here's the famous rotational where the level is decided by whether or not it's Meryl and Charlie on the ice.
Bonus:
*The comments section says this is the individual competition. God are DW desultory.
^It's the individual, not the team event.
ReplyDelete"Here's the famous rotational where the Level is decided by whether or not it's Meryl and Charlie on the ice."
Also, I made a comment on one of the posts below about the team event, but it applies here as well - D/W did meet the criteria for a L4, because the part where Charlie stops rotating is after the required number of rotations for the second half of a combination, and Meryl is exiting the difficult pose before he stops rotating (a close call, but I checked it in slow-mo). The creative/difficult entrance was fulfilled by him in spread eagle position before she leaves the ice - the rules say a split second is all that is needed as long as it's established. But the exit is certainly an eyesore, I cringe every single time I see it, as well as a perfect example of their limitations as a team. And I wish it was more difficult to get a L4.
Well what gets ridiculous is the GOEs...but your right the level of wtf with assigning levels to lifts, twizzles and step sequences has been so arbitrary that literally there is no thought into it. And to think that DW got their highest scores at the Olympics with their worst performances...
DeleteI wasn't certain because I used a video already in my files and the file name didn't specify. But that lift is the biggest wtf. When I was cutting it, it struck me again how labored, how slow, DW were in Sochi. I know they've been faster. They've never been as fast as VM, but in Sochi they were crawling.
DeleteI believe it was in the Team Event that D/W did 5 rotations instead of the required 6 for that ridiclious lift. That, plus out-of-synch twizzles, was worthy of a world record score. WHAT.THE.HELL.
Deletedoes the turn he does during the exit count?
Delete6:38, they only need 5 rotations when it's in the second half of a combination. The level 4 is taken care of by the "creative/difficult entry" of the SlLi - Charlie's spread eagle, so it only needs level 3 requirements which is 5 rotations, 4 with the women in the difficult pose. Both the team event and the individual event had them meet this requirement. The 6th rotation after Charlie stops rotating for a second is the exit only and doesn't count. There are countless ways in which D/W didn't *earn* a WR score, but this particular level isn't one of them. I think Ice Dance Analysts is doing a useful service, but their information regarding lift levels wasn't accurate in that post.
DeleteOC, you can tell by the costumes. Meryl wore blue in the team, Tessa red. Here they wore purple and pink, respectively.
DeleteThanks 1:25pm.
DeleteAnd don't forget the creative difficulty of Meryl bending into a crouch and curling into a fetal position while she's got Charlie in a headlock and he's got her entire trunk pasted to his chest and girdled.
DeleteThe ISU definition of "difficulty" is laughable.
The ISU's solution for ice dance is to just not define difficulty at all.
DeleteIn contrast, they go into a lot more detail for pairs: http://static.isu.org/media/108107/1790-sptc-sov_levdiff_2013-2014.pdf
Assigning levels and GOE for pairs elements starts on page 10.
All of it is interesting compared to the absolute vagueness of what they put down for ice dance, but they get very specific on some of the lift requirements.
1:22 pm: Thanks for clarifying. I guess I'm just pissed off that Meryl is essentially doing a sloppy piggy-back, her right thigh pinned by Charlie, OF COURSE, and that merits a freaking level four. Disgusting.
Deletehttp://static.isu.org/media/104330/handbook-for-technical-panels-2013-final.pdf
Delete2:01, how is the pairs document more specific than what they put down for dance? Both just list examples of what's difficult. There are 27 pages of details on lift levels in the ice dance tech handbook, 5 pages of which are examples of what's difficult. (Or were you saying ice dance gets specific for only lifts?)
The difficulty entry is Charlie's spread eagle. A difficult feature being necessary for both the man and woman could be an interesting improvement - either a difficult position itself or one of the other options (significant transitional movement, unexpected entrance like a jump). The potato sack hauling would no longer be an option.
6:21, the document you linked for ice dance isn't the "sister" document to the one on pairs. The dance document is the entire 101 page handbook for technical callers in ice dance. The one with the pairs is a much shorter communication, 15 pages, with just the scale of values and guidelines for levels. One is the holy grail for its discipline, the other is a few pages of cliffnotes. The appropriate longer sister document for pairs is out there somewhere though.
DeleteMaybe I'm missing something, but I still think there's more detail there. Look at the level guidelines for the pairs twist lifts. They define the angle of the split, say that the mans arms have to be at a certain level and position, that the lady must be caught at the waist without her arms touching the man, etc. Or, another example from page 11: "TWIST LIFTS Feature (n° 5): after the man releases the lady, his arms must change position going to the side of his body at least as low as his shoulders before he catches the lady. The arms of the man must be straight or almost straight"
If twist lifts were an option in ice dance, they would never include anything about exactly how the arms mans have to move after the lady is released.
This is the sister document here. It's only 27 pages in total.
Deletehttp://static.isu.org/media/104201/tp_handbook_pairs_2013-14_version_13-08-03.pdf
There's also no judges handbook with a PCS rubric. I think there are many things that could and should be further defined in ice dance, but I think overall the criteria for dance is more specific than in pairs. Yes, there may be certain elements in pairs that are better, but I was specifically talking about lift entrances - it lists a paragraph of examples that are no more specific than the dance examples, at least not when you read through the whole q&a sections available in the handbook.
I'm definitely in favour of the critiera for levels being tightened, but levels are only worth about 36% of the FD. The criteria for GOE and PCS was completely ignored by the judges and that's the biggest part of the problem of what happened. I think a very strong case can be built that D/W didn't deserve to win *under CoP* - V/M were CoP skaters incarnate - they just pushed it as far as it could go, but they also embraced the underlying spirit of what it says. So while "what D/W were able to get away with levels" is an interesting discussion, if we're making a case for why D/W shouldn't have won in Sochi, it's not necessary at best and unhelpful at worst - are we saying D/W shouldn't have won in Sochi because they didn't meet existing criteria, or that the system is wrong but they won fairly under that system? We don't need to resort to the second, because the first is clearly true. D/W tended to meet levels, and didn't meet GOE and PCS criteria in spades.
(Of course, this IS an interesting side issue, so I'm not trying to say the discussion isn't one worth having, it's definitely relevant to deconstructing D/W's problems. I'm just pointing out that who should have won in Sochi under *existing* CoP criteria is still as clear as day because levels aren't everything.)
Thanks for the link to the sister document. I'm not into pairs and singles the way I am into ice dance, so I don't faithfully keep up with all of the communications, etc. However, sometime in the last 3-5 years, or at least some point in the not-as-recent past, I remember reading the handbook at the time and noting that there was a lot of detail on how the pairs lifts needed to be performed. There was certainly more detail than there is now.
Delete"I'm definitely in favour of the critiera for levels being tightened, but levels are only worth about 36% of the FD. The criteria for GOE and PCS was completely ignored by the judges and that's the biggest part of the problem of what happened. I think a very strong case can be built that D/W didn't deserve to win *under CoP* - V/M were CoP skaters incarnate - they just pushed it as far as it could go, but they also embraced the underlying spirit of what it says. So while "what D/W were able to get away with levels" is an interesting discussion, if we're making a case for why D/W shouldn't have won in Sochi, it's not necessary at best and unhelpful at worst - are we saying D/W shouldn't have won in Sochi because they didn't meet existing criteria, or that the system is wrong but they won fairly under that system? We don't need to resort to the second, because the first is clearly true. D/W tended to meet levels, and didn't meet GOE and PCS criteria in spades. "
I agree with this. Levels aren't everything or even the majority of what goes into the total score for a program.
There are two things at play here. One is the discussion that the criteria for levels itself needs overhaul. The other is that even going by how the CoP criteria is written at present and even if DW crudely managed to check the boxes for the level features, they still should have been smoked by VM on GOE and PCS.
We have established that DW were ok with 5 revolutions on the second half of the combo lift, but there are still examples of times when they got credit when they shouldn't have for levels. The dance jump (hop) is supposed to involve leaving the ice in order for it to count as a feature. There have been times when one or both did not leave the ice. There have also been problems with continuous rotation in the twizzles where there was a break in the rotation before the required number of rotations were in to count for levels. There was the Finnstep key point where Meryl came down on the flat instead of the correct, clear edge. In step sequences, 100% of the turns and steps have to be clean and correct. There are videos and screencaps showing them definitely not clean and correct at some point in step sequences for which they received level 4. Still, at the end of the day, the levels aren't as big of a problem as GOE and PCS. Those two categories were where the worst of the overscoring happened.
"There are two things at play here. One is the discussion that the criteria for levels itself needs overhaul. The other is that even going by how the CoP criteria is written at present and even if DW crudely managed to check the boxes for the level features, they still should have been smoked by VM on GOE and PCS. "
DeleteAbsolutely, and I appreciate you breaking it down.
There is also the quality of the basic stroking in the program as a whole and in step sequences. DW have crabbed blade run that doesn't flow - the edge changes are forced in, they don't flow from one edge to the next. Just looking at the gifs that have been created of DW doing steps and turns vis a vis other top teams, the inferior quality of DW's basic skating is manifest. They get tens. They get +3's for doing what requires foundationally superior basic skating and they're not even competitive with some teams off the podium, let alone with the best in the world - VM.
holy D/W really werent synchronized during the twizzles and i thought i was imagining things
ReplyDeleteIt's the details were they suck suck suck. They can be "roughly" turning in synch, which is the best that can be said since they never approach unison, but then look at the details - the exit and prep from the first twizzle to the second, what happens to their bodies as they exit (and those free legs), what happens to their bodies during the first turn. Look at that up there. DW partisans have no business EVER pointing out any slip VM have ever done ever, because first of all, DW aren't doing it at all, so it doesn't matter what VM do, and secondly, DW constantly fuck up, and it's built into their program as a style, or blatantly, flagrantly disregarded by the judging panel and tech callers. Up there in DW's rotational, getting into the rotation is labored. The exit is labored. Charlie is bent and not just bent, twisted like a pretzel. And Meryl clearly can't do anything without clutching, pressing and hooking. This shit got 10s and +3s. As to that shoveling Meryl along move at the top of the post, their program is full of non-skating stuff like that. All of their programs. Go back during this quad - even look at Phantom. It's a move. It's not skating. And it's junk.
DeleteSide by side twizzles from the team event here but not sure this helps you at all
ReplyDeletehttp://never-endingdream.tumblr.com/post/76148798774
That's one one. Thanks very much.
Deleteanother gifset that proves the scoring of the SD was actual bs http://never-endingdream.tumblr.com/post/82024423043
DeleteThat circular footwork sequence from Seasons should have been a level 5. It was unreal. And I dont' think most people picked up on the fact that they did the whole thing counter-clockwise. They are beyond awesome.
ReplyDeletethe circular step sequence alone should've put them in first place during the FD, as they are the element worth the most points and v/m do it way better and with much more difficulty than d/w. d/w step sequences are awkward and sloppy and laborious.
DeleteI've heard the counter-clockwise thing before, but is that just because they used to do them clockwise? Chock/Bates do them counter-clockwise too, so I assume there's nothing inherently difficult about them. V/M's step sequences were certainly incredible besides though.
DeleteAnon 8:14: Exactly; all of V/M's past circular sequences were clockwise.
DeleteThe diagonal is also spectacular, especially the second half. I hope OC gifs it to marvel at all the gorgeous edges.
I believe this was the first year the ISU deemed counter-clockwise as acceptable. What makes this difficult for the skaters, at least at first, is that their bodies have been doing clockwise circular step sequences all these years, so they not only have to master new choreography, but in the opposite direction to their comfort zone.
DeleteNo, it's been an option since at least the 2009-10 season (that's as far back as the documents I have at hand go). But yes, it was certainly a new challenge for V/M.
DeleteIt's a really big deal. In the early days of CoP, commentators would mention it when a skater was doing a spin in the opposite direction to gain levels - it was this big wow thing (Ilia Klimkin used to do it even prior to CoP, not sure about anyone else). When Kwan finally competed under the new system, she did an opposite direction spin, and it s-l-o-w.
DeleteTurning in a new direction is very difficult. A skater typically jumps and spins in one direction. Rohene Ward used to be able to jump in both directions and that pretty much made him a prodigy.
To do a step sequence in what's not your natural direction, at the end of a program, and fly through it is AMAZING - even meeting one of those criteria is amazing, but all three together is basically impossible. You won't see another dance team do that for probably 20 years. And yet what did they get? Nothing. It's stomach-churning.
I think it would have been interesting if they had changed things up with the ice dance CoP. It's obvious that the elements that DW are doing are much easier - the twizzles, the lifts, the steps - but somehow they meet level 4. Part of that might be fluffing, but even if we awesome that what's been choreographed does meet the level and the corruption is only with the PCS and GOE, that's outrageous. In singles and pairs you can always add difficulty and increase base value.
I would take the ceiling out of ice dance. So, in a lift like VM's straightline from their FD, since they had two additional difficult features that weren't necessary for L4 (Scott going on one foot, and then making his foot parallel to Tessa's), give them two extra points in base value. Since VM and DW both did that candle lift, but VM's was harder, they should have had extra base value. Basically for every additional feature that the skater does above what's worth a level 4, give another point in BV.
You just know VM would stack their program with outrageously difficult lifts. They'd probably do sets of 4, 5, or 6 twizzles to show they could. Add extra positions to spins. Do their footwork sequences counter-clockwise, adding in one foot sections. Just all this stuff that DW couldn't possibly do and get a 5-10 point advantage on BV alone.
It would have been really interesting to see if the ISU would have been able to hold DW up then.
*assume, not awesome - what a typo!
DeleteAnon 10:17: excellent points. Why is there a ceiling in ice dance and not the other disciplines? It never made sense to me.
Delete"To do a step sequence in what's not your natural direction, at the end of a program, and fly through it is AMAZING - even meeting one of those criteria is amazing, but all three together is basically impossible. You won't see another dance team do that for probably 20 years."
DeleteIt wasn't at the end of their program, it was their second element! And Chock/Bates do it in counter-clockwise, but used to be it in clockwise, and I am certainly not prepared to say they're an amazing team. I also considered the idea that C/B have an opposite rotation direction to others like many pairs teams, but they spin and do rotational lifts in the same direction as everyone else. They did a change of direction spin last season, but so do G/P, so...
To do the step sequence in a new direction with the perfection that V/M did it at the Olympics is really incredible, but I think V/M fans are having a tendency to say things that they haven't fact-checked to make sound V/M sound even better. It's not necessary, V/M are that much better that sticking to the stone cold facts is enough. When people here snerk about D/W fans who make things up, it would serve us well to make sure the claims we make here are indeed accurate.
I am going to gif that as soon as I can, and it's just the past quad all over. VM do that and the sport pretends it's not happening. VM does Carmen and the sport retaliates - yep, retaliates - by monster scoring DW for bullshit and authorizing a Letter of Inquiry after the 4CC's. It's a disgrace and everybody who enabled it, particularly in Canada, is a disgrace. The enthusiasm with which the so-called Canadian skating comment class tried to bully and shame the fans into endorsing DW as on par with VM or EVER deserving a placement above them is shameful and won't be forgotten. Their crediblity is garbaged.
Deleteoc
The more that DW's FD is broken down and compared to VM's, the more furious I get, especially considering that DW shouldn't have even made it out of US Nationals.
ReplyDeleteThat first gif of DW at the top of this post is sort of reminiscent of a transition that HD did in their FD this past season. Madison had a hip injury. You didn't see her leg just flop down on to the ice. She holds her position, has a change of edge, and transitions out on an edge. Meryl doesn't hold that first position, instead going into that whatever, but she couldn't have held that position and done a change of edge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3483XHc_z50#t=177
For all the horror in that program, their slowness stands out the most. They are glacial. Just look at the boards behind them. They're covering no ice. It's as if they're trying to sprint underwater. Their movements are small. The clarity of everything they do has flattened out.
DeleteOh, I have watched the boards behind them. They're crawling along like snails out there.
Delete"The clarity of everything they do has flattened out."
It's what happened every single season with them. Not that they ever debuted strong, but while almost every other team out there was growing their programs along--especially VM-- DW's always regressed and flattened. It was predictable as the use of the magical all-purpose twizzles.
What is so freaking "Them" in that move is Meryl is hooked onto Charlie in some bastardized shoot-the-duckish crouch, her working leg is on a wobbly inside edge that immediately transitions into a wobbly flat before she straight up slaps the side of the boot of her left leg on the ice and kicks her right leg in the air. That's Meryl. Didn't Anna Pavlova have the exact same exquisite control? Just throw that leg up and let it flop down and swing past you. Unbelieveable. What IS it? It's junk. It's not skating. It's not dance.
DeleteYou know what else that H/D transition is a good comparison for? D/W's sad "change-edge" spiral in NDP.
DeleteA couple DW ubers on Goldenshit, er I mean, GoldenSkate, including the you-know-who master of made up physics, are now saying that the Ice Dance Analysts Blog is not accurate because it is somehow affiliated to this blog and secretly biased towards V/M, like they have some kind of agenda to promote them.
ReplyDeleteThese ubers are also mad at the blog picking apart D/W's weaknesses that they keep saying it's just the one same person making all these thousands of comments and that the opinions are not actually universal.
If the DW ubers feel that the Ice Dance Analysts blog is inaccurate, they should start their own blog to look at ice dance. They should also point out how others are getting it wrong when it comes to the break downs of DW's skating.
DeleteOh, wait. They can't.
is buttermilk on Goldenskate = Susan M "Tessa is too fat for Scott to lift" on FSU?
DeleteI love how they keep lying to themselves about "it's just one person making all these comments". No. These are all the people (like some skaters and coaches) who aren't afraid to speak out against D/W.
Delete"Opinions"? Skating can be looked at objectively. A proper edge is a proper edge. Mechanics are either efficient or they're not. A skater is on two feet or describing a curve with an edge. A partner has their arm hooked around his/her partner's neck or not.
Fans are the only ones who can speak up. Apparently if anybody in the sport speaks up they paint a target on their back.
Ice dance analysts blog is accurate or not based on the SKATING, not its affiliations. This blog (dubemoir) is a fan of icedancealyasts blog; there is zero evidence - and I'd know - that vice versa is correct. But this sounds exactly like the reasoning Doris & Co. would use - irrelevant factors. The skating is what it is. Agenda is irrelevant, other blogs are irrelevant, fandom is irrelevant. What's on the ice? What's in the rules? Do they match so the points awarded are justified?
DeleteDW's skating doesn't match the rules doesn't match the points they received; not just this season, but going back pre-Vancouver. That's an objective fact that no DW fan has been able to even begin to disprove.
It's ridiculous how those DW ubers keep whining about those who dare analyze and break down the skating. So what if a person analyzing prefers any team that's not DW? So long as ANYONE can objectively and accurately point out what's happening and/or not happening on the ice, I don't care which team they prefer.
DeleteIt comes down to the integrity of the ice-dancing. Stupid Doris can pretend all she wants DW are getting it done. She's fantasizing. Objective breakdown of the established criteria (not made-up criteria) speaks for itself.
DW have been foisted on us and the fans have been instructed to fawn over them and call them great. I refuse. And you know what, history shows these kinds of hoaxes or corrupt results in a sporting event will see the light of day sooner or later. In the long run the ISU nor DW will get away with this farce.
I actually don't think the creator of the ice dance analysts blog IS a VM uber - I think they love P/B. I might have gotten that impression from somebody else who is also breaking down the skating. Any fan of skaters that actually do it have to be furious at what happened, or at the very least it made them far more cynical than they were before; and it's a cynical sport. Nothing on this magnitude has been done before, IMO.
Delete12:54 PM ikr the ones on youtube are particularly insufferable as they cant even back their shit up!
DeleteI've never commented here, because I'm more of a lurker, and I don't know a thing about ice dancing, but this post... it's amazing how unsynchronised DW are, and how graceless. I actually bursted out laughing with a couple of pics here. She's like a wooden doll. It's amazing.
ReplyDeleteOC, please gif the hopping Meryl just did in her perfectly scored tango. Seriously, she hopped through some of the steps, and her timing was off.
ReplyDeleteCharlie was really cute. He is not a great dancer by any stretch of the imagination, but I get the feeling that he is really trying to learn something new. He makes me smile.
I can't do it today (the DWTs gifing) but I'll get it done this week.
DeleteIt is a travesty that DW finished seven points ahead of VM at the Olympics. I guess when a sport, in advance, determines it's going to be corrupt, it goes big. The "sport" is also demonstrating what we already know - that it's not accountable to the public and likes it that way, and even flaunts it.
I started cutting up the tango last night and something is rotten for sure. I'm not even halfway through the dance and already they've broken hold twice - not briefly, but actually separated yards apart. Didn't Charlie get docked for breaking hold in tango - brief holds where Sharma spun and he caught her, and they still occupied essentially the same shared working space? Meryl trots and walks through this thing, poses and face twists, does the same all purpose leg swing out and turns that have been a feature in every prior dance, and there's no tango here at all. They take fourteen seconds to begin.
DeleteThis seems to be about Maks, not Meryl. Unfortunately, in Meryl, Maks doesn't have the ringer he thought he did. She has a very restricted - constricted actually - movement vocabulary, and clearly can't learn anything new. Ergo, the same limited movement vocabulary has to be repurposed for every dance they do. Familiar, right? In the rehearsal packages he's bitching that she can't pick up simple steps, that her short term memory is poor, and as a mover, she's timid. Well, yes she is. There's nobody out there more self-protective than Meryl. She works within an extremely tiny space, not just on the ice or floor, but within her own body. Of course that rehearsal narrative was spun as Maks stressing over his history with the show and the expectations of this partnerships, but that's not the problem. The problem is she's not a ringer, and anybody who expects more from her than what we've seen so far doesn't know Meryl as a mover/dancer/skater. This is it. It's her.
I did not think her stated disappointment over not receiving tens for the crap ass samba looked good on her. Tens is a baseline? I guess so - she gets tens for crap in skating; why not 'dance'.
Normally, I'd say she and Maks are obviously being set up for a reversal. But, the show could only manage a minor "reversal" last week with the 9s. After that, straight tens. This, like most things to do related to DW, could be an outlier, where they simply have to score inflate her to a win, against all prior storyboard patterns where the overscored team ends up second or third.
And frankly, and sadly, she doesn't work through her feet any more than Amy Purdy, and Meryl doesn't have prosthetics.
DeleteWtf is with meryls pants? Just makes it more obvious that she is trying to hide something
ReplyDeleteThey're doing a good job with costuming. HIDE HER LEGS AND FEET!
DeleteOf course. That's what you want when you have a contestant who had a gold medal hanging around her neck in Sochi. Hide her legs and feet. Generally the weak points of somebody whose speciality is dance.
As with all dancers/choreographers, the pro partners are constantly looking in the mirror while setting choreography. Meryl is working in leggings that show every line of her body. Since the third episode of DWTs, what the pros see in the mirror has obviously driven her costume styles. Argentine tango generally uses a short skirt - since they couldn't go floor length, Meryl's Argentine tango costume covered the entire left side of her body down to the ankle. They're hiding that she's not doing it, and there's a blatant double standard for how she's scored, the rules that can be broken when she dances, the actual rhythms of the dance, and the actual character of the dance are all thrown out the window for her and we're told her baseline in ten. Every since the third episode, which is when he scores blew up. This supports one of two narratives and I suspect both narratives have one thing in common, which is she's not getting the votes. If she were getting the votes, then they could storyboard her to a win, grow her scores. If she's not, then they're inflating her scores to get her to the final, where an underdog will surge to take the trophy, or they don't want to take any chances and are going to inflate her nonstop TO the trophy, which is how it worked in ice dance, no growth arc, just bulldoze it through.
Delete"Please, Doris Pulaski, explain why, according to the standards and criteria spelled out the rules by which this "sport" is judged, Davis White's junkyard piece of claptrap is more difficult and demonstrates skating skill superior to the version executed by Hubbell Donohue."
ReplyDeleteI'm sure she'll be on it soon. I made a rare venture into a Goldenskate thread tonight and found a reference in a post to Doris having criticized HD's skating skills.
"Please, Doris Pulaski, explain why, according to the standards and criteria spelled out the rules by which this "sport" is judged, Davis White's junkyard piece of claptrap is more difficult and demonstrates skating skill superior to the version executed by Hubbell Donohue."
DeleteApril 22, 2014 at 8:02 PM said: "I'm sure she'll be on it soon. I made a rare venture into a Goldenskate thread tonight and found a reference in a post to Doris having criticized HD's skating skills."
H/D is to C/B as V/M is to D/W in Doris' convoluted rationale. To prop up her favorites, she has to talk down their rivals, so she's always sharing some unsolicited, nonsensical bull about H/D having poor timing, being prone to making mistakes, or being slow. Whateva. Best to leave her and her delusions alone.
O/T and don't know how legit this is but....https://twitter.com/meganmontinola/status/458486202778140672/photo/1
ReplyDeleteB.S. What happened in Sochi - and the entire quad - had absolutely nothing to do with VM not getting the attention they needed. We are constantly looking at DW's skating - look at VM's skating. They couldn't possibly have done more.
DeleteIf there's any legitimacy to what the judge said, sounds like Igor is spreading gossip among the judges whose asses he kisses. Since all of the top teams at Canton stayed with Marina, that doesn't make him look good, especially that DW stayed (and lord knows he put in the spadework with DW).
Is that judge implying that VM didn't get enough attention? What does that mean, exactly? That if they'd received more attention their skating wouldn't have fallen behind DW's? See the bullshit?
ANY narrative that focuses on VM, instead of focusing on DW and how DW were scored, is just propoganda attempting to legitimize DW's win by turning the attention away from DW's skating. Something nobody in the sport appears to want to talk about, because it's a clear no win. When we look at what DW did and didn't do on the ice, DW shouldn't have been on the podium. The End. It's about THEM and their scores, not VM and their coaching.
DeleteI think there's zero legitimacy to the claims that Igor and Pasquale approached VM about coaching. If you look through some of the other tweets from the twitter user who shared the screen cap posted by 2:07 am, she says that the tumblr user who told her about the Igor/Pasquale thing also filled her in about the David Pelltier/Tessa thing and how it was the cause of Tessa's parents splitting up. That information was said to have come from SC physiotherapists who said that DP was present for Tessa's therapy sessions in 2009.
DeleteI think it's safe to say that once someone props up the DP rumor like that, odds are their other pieces of skating gossip are made up bs. What the tumblr user told the twitter user looks a lot like the vista of Bullshit Mountain to me.
Well, there you go. I didn't hunt through the history but the falsity was pretty blatant in just that one tweet. Thanks for digging back.
DeleteAnon @ 8.07 - I noticed that too after I posted @2.07 and my immediate thought was - propping the sham or not as in the loop as you think you are therefore, as the blogger says, BS. That'll teach me to only read one tweet :-D
DeleteThe DP rumor did not originate with Moirville--it came from FSU. It's not propping up the sham. It's just plain fan-invented bs.
DeleteIt's interesting that the DP rumor is based on TEB 2009. It's entirely possible he was seen around Tessa at the time of her physios. Let's not forget at that time Scott and Jessica were producing lots of sham photos around Paris and DP was cast in the role (by Skate Canada, no less) of advisor to VM.
DeleteI've always suspected DP was very involved in helping craft the sham. I could see him attending to Tessa while Scott was taking care of sham business. The problem is the gossip mill interpreted any sightings of DP around Tessa as "dating" when it was nothing of the sort. The guy was helping them sham.
The important thing to keep in mind about this iteration of the rumor is that there's a very big hole in it that even the dimmest of bulbs should pick up on. By 2009, Tessa wasn't using SC's physiotherapist. Mary Brannigan was traveling with Tessa to all competitions. There was a very big deal made about this as it was used a lot as an example of the good that the Own the Podium program funding was doing for Canadian athletes in the run up to Vancouver.
DeleteIt never crossed my mind DP was helping sham - I just assumed that he was hanging around alot in his capacity as "business adviser" and it got (willfully) misinterpreted. I'm guessing things like the Roots deal, the groundwork would have been laid well before the Olympics (but I stand to be corrected)
DeleteBTW - when did Virtue mere and pere split up?
DeleteI remember seeing a comment ages ago on a news article that said that Tessa's skating had destroyed her family. It probably had something to do with Kate's desire to be close to her daughter (or Tessa's desire to have Kate as a constant presence in her life). I think Mama and Papa Virtue are very good at putting on appearances and being civil for the shared interest in their daughter but who knows whether or not they've had much of a relationship for years.
DeleteThe rumors about Tessa's parents seem to pop up from time-to-time, but I'm unaware myself whether they're true or not. If the Virtue parents are split up, I sincerely home that the blame isn't placed on Tessa's skating (and thus Tessa) because Jim and Kate's marriage/relationship and working through their own marital problems is/was on them, regardless of what was going on with their children. If Jim and Kate are indeed split, I hope that they're able to be civil to each other for the sake of all four of their kids, their granddaughter, and any other grandkids they have or will have in the future, and not just for appearance purposes for Tessa's skating.
DeleteYes, I also recall that comment in the newspaper article from years ago. I think it was after the 2010 Olympics, and the author said something to the effect of being tired of V/M being shoved down London's throat and that things were not as they seemed; mentioned something about Tessa barely speaking to her father even though he bankrolled her entire career.
DeleteYeah...I sat next to her dad last year at a competition and I find it hard to believe they are barely speaking. Her mom was in the seat behind him talking to Scotts cousin. The parents were warm with each other and spoke quietly several times.
Delete"The important thing to keep in mind about this iteration of the rumor is that there's a very big hole in it that even the dimmest of bulbs should pick up on. By 2009, Tessa wasn't using SC's physiotherapist. Mary Brannigan was traveling with Tessa to all competitions. There was a very big deal made about this as it was used a lot as an example of the good that the Own the Podium program funding was doing for Canadian athletes in the run up to Vancouver."
DeleteYes. Mary Brannagan was named as the official physiotherapist for the TEB event, so that she could be with Tessa. There were no other SC physios in Paris.
You'd think people making up stories would do a little research beforehand...
"B.S. What happened in Sochi - and the entire quad - had absolutely nothing to do with VM not getting the attention they needed."
It could have been a contributing factor. By the time Sochi came along, the judges and skating community had already decided the outcome. V/M needed better skates in Finland and on the Grand Prix to stand a chance and maybe more attention from Marina would have helped. Making changes to a very flawed FD program before nationals would also have been useful (according to Scott, she was very reluctant to do so and they basically had to twist her arm).
It's not fair that they were held to a much higher standard than D/W this quad, but if they'd skated more consistently over the last few years, and especially this year, they might have won in Sochi. Maybe more attention from Marina would have helped, maybe not choosing to be distracted by a dumb sham and reality show would have been a good idea. The bottom line is we aren't in their heads and we don't know how V/M were affected by all of these factors.
@9:42
DeleteI don't believe in the Tessa-DP rumours at all. However, it is possible that Tessa's own physio was using the same room/facilities as the other physios at TEB and DP might have been talking to Tessa during one of her sessions.
I think many times these rumours might have a grain of truth, such as, Tessa and DP were standing next to each other and talking. That's all it takes for some people to blow it up into an affair.
It's such a ridiculous rumour. There has never been a single shred of evidence to back it up except gossip on the internet, but many fans accept this story without question. And yet the evidence for VM being a couple of long-standing is always in our face but fans say it cannot possibly be true. Go figure.
12:54
DeleteI don't think there's anything VM could have done to change the outcome in Sochi. There is no coaching change, no different program, no amount of cleaner early season skates that would have changed the outcome. The ISU dictated this and the wheels were set in motion for DW to win in Sochi well prior to even Vancouver. By the time the 2013-14 season started, there was no stopping that train.
12:54 here
DeleteI could have sworn Mary Brannagan had been named official SC physiotherapist for TEB (there's one per event), I remember thinking it was weird that Tessa had the power to impose her personal physio on the other skaters. And yet, I can't find any evidence of this. Weird. Maybe I should do my own research...
@ 1:28
DeleteThat's an assumption. We don't know what would have happened.
1:37
DeleteBased on all the evidence from all of this last quad, it's not a mere assumption. Every way of looking at the scores' trajectory for VM and DW, their programs and how they were judged plus all the skating media and commentators narratives, it can be factually established that the ISU decided years ago to put DW at the top of the icedance world.
Anon 12:54: even less than their best, V/M were head and shoulders above D/W and the rest of the competition. And this inconsistency issue is nonsense; the judges are supposed to mark on what they see on the day, not pre-determine the scores on what happened earlier in the season. V/M skated clean when it mattered most, the GPF and the individual event, and it didn't matter. The judges had their orders to give D/W V/M's scores + bonus. So not only do D/W have an undeserved OGM, they have an undeserved world record score. Doubly disgusting.
DeleteAlso, explain what was flawed with V/M's freedance? The most flawed freedance was D/W's, because there was no skating or dancing in it, all posing, skipping, lunging, and shit for lifts.
Delete12:55, it is a ridiculous rumor but some people ran with it because they liked sticking it to VM fans, and let's face facts, VM and DP both let it stay out there. It would have been the easiest thing in the world for DP to show up somewhere in the company of some woman, just once. Or for VM to recruit someone like Semple in the middle of the rumors (which were largely created by one person and picked up by other shit stirrers and liars) and redirect that way. They didn't. If they cared about the rumor, they'd have redirected. The rumor was obviously useful to them. I don't know why they had that entertainment outlet elliptically deny it (raising the issue in the bumper, then having Tessa vaguely say some rumors were hurtful). While the rumor is ridiculous, it was enabled by VM and had to have served their purposes, even if they didn't create it, or they could have done something about it.
DeleteI, also, don't agree that Seasons was "very flawed" and would like support for that opinion that relates to how the sport is supposedly judged. As ever, they took the standards in CoP and elevated them.
DeleteWhen it comes to rumors, I used to think "grain of truth" or game of telephone, or embellishment, but I've learned these things are just as likely to be completely made up. It's not some small inoccuous thing that is blown up to something huge. It's 100% invention. That happens more often than something being exaggerated.
DeleteThe stories about Jim and Kate stem a great deal from Tessa claiming to live with her mother without accounting for where her dad fits into the picture. So Tessa herself enables those stories. They made up that her mom moved with her to Kitchener-Waterloo (I guess to head off people thinking about adolescent Scott and Tessa on their own together away from home, even though Scott has said many times before Vancouver that the situation was exactly that, host families or no host families.) And then the lie that Mom moved to Michigan. And where was dad? No comments about mom commuting between her marriage and pitching in with her daughter. Most of it came from Tessa's presentation of her own living situation, and nobody bothered to cover the piece about her dad and mom's marriage, so if it's out there, they knew it would be interpreted that way and didn't care. And I don't think that in itself suggests anything about Jim and Kate's marriage. It just means that lying liars lie.
Delete12:54 - I'd be interested if you'd share what was seriously flawed about Carmen, as Carmen was pissed on by the ISU and the judges, and Notre Dame got the scores Carmen deserved. What attention did Marina fail to pay that Carmen was such a disappointing effort?
Delete1:34, there was a pre-Vancouver Olympic interview where Tessa discussed some of the (CES issue) things she had asked for and been given from Skate Canada (or Own the Podium) - things she needed and her Fed (or Own the Podium) paid for. Chief among these was Mary Branagan's presence during Tessa's GP events. It sounds like an extra that they gave the their gold medal prospects, not something they imposed on the other skaters. SC isn't open sesame with the purse strings, but I don't think Branagan's travel, lodging and session cost during the GP (and all Tessa said was the GP) would have broken the bank.
DeleteGiven the amount of PT Tessa was getting daily, Branagan couldn't have really functioned as the event PT. As Tessa expressed it, they found the room in the budget for Branagan for the GP - for her (Tessa). If there's a designated PT for every competition, there would already have been room in the budget. Since we're talking a skater who was going to monopolize the time of her PT, have a PT dedicated to her, that was an extra-budget item.
At the time of Carmen, I'm not sure even Marina knew the dye was cast. After that season, I'm sure she knew, as did VM. But when the season launched, she described Carmen as a program that could get 200 points. And that's exactly what it was, a program that could get 200 points. The ISU instead stripped points from it and piled the points on Notre Dame. It was a scary program that threatened the narrative of DW's ascendancy - it was a program that appeared designed to stop that DW narrative in its tracks, and clearly the ISU had to squash it. Death by a thousand cuts.
Delete1:34
DeleteRe Mary Brannan
Mary has traveled to ALL important competitions with tessa since 2009. She is an integral part of their team and they treat her as though she is family. During the regular training for the competitive season she sees tessa at least once a week.
As for being imposed on the other skaters... mary sees plenty of the detroit skaters at the windsor clinic and therefore is a known entity, rather than just some random physio working the event for sc. She is considered to be a magician by many of the skaters and her clients in the community
10:06 - I know that in the interview I mentioned, Tessa specifically talked about requesting Mary Branagan for the 2009 GP series. My takeaway was that for that phase of the season (GP), SC picked up the tab. I believe Mary worked with her right through Vancouver. My only question is did SC underwrite the post-GP phase or was that picked up by the Virtue Moir, or other supporters/funding/sponsor. Branagan now works with Scott as well, at least going by the reality show. Although the reality show had tons of lies, I do believe that in some respects it was accurate - that Scott uses Mary Branagan, and Tessa has also been working with Maria Mountain, ever since she got the all clear to return to that type of intensive training. I think both Branagan and Mountain are brilliant.
Deleteoc
Scott works with her on an as needed basis as far as I know and has used her whenever necessary all along. Mary is very much about addressing problems before they get out of hand. Tessa has a very regular schedule with her in the clinic after hours. During regular hours many of the other detroit skaters come through.
DeleteIt depends on the competition for whom picks up the bill. I am not sure how it works at other competitions, but at Canadians and skate Canada there are official event physios that are provided whom anyone can use. These are volunteer positions. Mary's colleagues from the clinic have worked at these events which they can add to their resume.
Maybe if you gif and rant and bitch about the competition enough, it will change everyone's minds and thus, the competition result! Go get a life! This is a weird hobby!
ReplyDelete10:31 What, are you afraid of the truth?
DeleteWhat are you upset about 10:31? They ISU handed DW a gold medal. That's all you care about, not the skating or anything else.
DeleteThere is no need to change everybody's minds, as everybody who knows anything about skating, including those who handed the gold medal over to DW, know DW didn't earn it on the ice. The blog is just one of several pages on the web pointing out what DW didn't do on the ice, and what they did do. There are no minds to be changed. And certainly nobody can change the ISU's mind about handing off the win to a team that didn't earn it. They decided to do that years ago.
However, if you believe there exists informed people who believe DW earned it on the ice according to the rules that govern how points are awarded, and not for any other reason like "Their turn" and "nice people", there are no such people. Anybody who looks at DW and concludes that they earned it on the ice according to the rules is clearly not informed. This isn't "subjective" with DW. They're not doing it, no subjectivity or value weighing involved. It's that blatant.
Anon at 1:47 - also over the last two years - have VM ever skated after DW? If so it was a rarity and at the Olympics DW skating last I believe in all 4 segments was ridiculous...
ReplyDeleteEvery single time I see gifs of DW, no matter which program or which year, I can't get over how fugly and clunky they look. I don't think they're capable of hitting a good pose for more than a fraction of a second.
ReplyDeleteDW and their people, together with the ISU, have sold the public a lie and OC, you're right in saying it's blatant. The idiots are the public who sees these performances and calls them art. DW don't have an artistic bone in their bodies. Their icedancing is a farce.
It's also hilariously ironic that VM have hoaxed the public in regards to their personal status and DW have hoaxed the public in regards to their skating.
Now that I'm watching DWTs it's even more striking how limited Meryl's movement vocabulary is. Charle actually has a decent range. His issue is transitions, some sloppiness at feet level, some tendency not to carry a movement through his entire body, and transitions. All of these are common to even the most talented DWTS celebs. Meryl can turn rapidly. Not precisely, not with control of her upper body and arms, not with precision, but she can turn rapidly. She can swing her leg out behind her. She can kick her leg up and let it drop like a rock. If girdled and locked in and straightened out by her partner, she can be an element in a lift. And she can walk around the dance floor. That's it.
DeleteIf we look at the ice, that's it, too. Everything else on the ice is her being dragged around, or hopping, running, walking and two-footing in between crabbed little steps.
oc
Well it appears that according to the VM interview this morning on a Halifax TV station, that they will not compete in the upcoming GP season. So no official retirement yet. And honestly - I can't blame them for taking some time off to re-assess. Mao Asada, Carolina Kostner and even Daisuke Takahashi have indicated that they are not officially retired. So I think we can afford the same reasoning to VM. And if we are to believe that VM have moved out of Michigan - well I think we can assume that they are done with Canton. I don't think this is a bad thing - they have had a very stressful 4 years in terms of being jerked around by the ISU and their own federation. You might as well - take a step back a la Joannie Rochette and see where the cookie crumbles...I think by June 2015 we will know whether VM are officially retired or not - I don't think they will drag it out like Joannie or Evan Lysacek...my two cents...
ReplyDeleteIf you've taken a gander at Tessa lately I wouldn't have expected her to be competing in the GP season. Next they won't compete in Canadians and I don't think this time they'll hustle back for Worlds. I don't know anything, but I'd just compare Tessa from summer 2010 to Tessa now (particularly Calgary Stampede and beyond) and she sure seems to be following the same template, so to speak.
Deleteoc
Can someone please enlighten me as to why everyone seems to think that Tessa is expecting? I've seen nothing that points to this conclusion.
DeleteMaybe this photo? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BllsnqoCcAApxj8.jpg Why is she holding her stomach in so desperately?
Deletetessa and scott are doing a show in china at the end of july. she cant be expecting unless she is further along they we thought meaning she was pregnant when she competed at sochi. and before people say they are going to pull out of the show (pun intended lololol) v/m were invited to perform at a show they always wanted to perform in so its highly unlikely they will pull out
Delete9:41, well, Tessa did warn everyone that her body wouldn't look like it did in that SportsNet photo shoot for long. :p Tessa's weight has a tendency to fluctuate, so I wouldn't read too much into her putting on a few pounds and maybe feeling a bit self-conscious about it.
Delete10:11. No, Tessa's weight does not have a tendency to fluctuate. Except for 2010 where she gained slowly over a period of time (exactly like a pregnancy) there are no times of weight fluctuations. This is a narrative made up by fans trying to explain 2010. There is no evidence to support that view. Tessa is an elite athlete who has always shown she is disciplined about these things.
DeleteApart from the time of the previous pregnancy, the only time there was a noticeable weight change was right after her first surgery in the Fall of 2008, when she looked frail and extremely thin.
10:04 Tessa did a show in October 2010 when she was about 6 months pregnant. July is certainly doable.
DeleteMaybe Tessa is having twins this time? Who is the baby daddy??
DeleteI was the person who posted at 9:41. I''m not saying she is pregnant (in fact, commenting on another post, I said I thought they'd be crazy to get pregnant just now), it's just that it was very noticeable to me that she was sucking her stomach in like crazy - and I know, because I do that in the mirror nearly every morning, imagining what I'll look like when I lose a stone :-) We know Tessa likes her chocolate but she's been skating a fair bit since Sochi and shouldn't have too much to worry about on that score - but she obviously is.
Delete3:04--Not to pick on you. You don't seem to be part of the fan group that likes to pretend Tessa struggles with her weight.
DeleteI feel indignant on Tessa's behalf when statements like "she likes her chocolate" are thrown around. I've seen VM haters use that to justify the "Tessa is fat" posts. Most people like chocolate. Just because Tessa has said in interviews that she happens to like chocolate is not the same thing as saying "I gain weight easily" or "chocolate makes me fat."
Like it was said in another post. Tessa is a disciplined, very hard-working elite athlete. That alone gives her permission to indulge in some chocolate once in a while with no weight-gain repercussions. VM have been in the public eye now for about 10 years and except for the time period when it looks like she was pregnant, there is ZERO evidence of her being a person who has weight-fluctuation issues.
Sorry for the rant (not directed at you personally, 3:04). I'm just so fed up with these statements.
4:16 - don't worry about the rant, I understand what you mean. When I said "Tessa likes her chocolate", I should have qualified it with "so she keeps telling us". For me, the alarm bells rang with regards to the 2010 weight gain were because it wasn't something that has happened before or since during a close season. I never understood why people ever said that Tessa's weight fluctuated - I wonder if her references to how much she likes chocolate was some form of planting the idea in people's minds? IOW, if you see/saw me put on a bit of weight, that's just my sweet tooth...not a baby, no sir.
Delete4:26
DeleteI think so too - that Tessa says things in an attempt to plant ideas. Just like saying she won't have her athlete's body in the future. It's ridiculous.
Good lord. Olympic-level athletes almost ALWAYS put on weight after the Olympics. Shawn Johnson, Nastia Liukin, Sasha Cohen, just to name a few. Did they all have babies too?
DeleteThe funny thing is Tessa was putting on all that weight while supposedly training super hard for nationals! How anyone can look at Tessa in December and think she was "totally ready" to compete a month later is beyond me.
DeleteI don't understand why they would choose to become pregnant now but it certainly looks like the same scenario is repeating itself. I'm a fan of all the loose clothing Tessa's been wearing these days :)
5:17
DeleteIt isn't the weight gain but how it's distributed. It's possible we're wrong of course, we'll get a clearer picture soon enough.
5:17
DeleteIt's not true across the board that after the Olympics athletes will put on weight. Gymnasts are notorious for this but it's more due to the way they'll keep themselves underweight for their age.
Tessa already has a woman's body. She's not likely to put on any extra weight from what is normal for her right now. BTW, Joannie and Marie France have not put on weight and they're way past their Olympic years.
It definitely isn't true that after the Olympics figure skaters will put on weight. Look at the skaters from Vancouver 2010. Did Yuna Kim gain weight? Mao? Aliona Savchenco? Anabel Langlois?
DeleteTessa put on weight once, in 2010-2011, because she was expecting a baby and then had just had a baby. She skated the entire spring, summer and fall and was able to return to weigh training, and during the time she was supposedly aiming for Canadians she was heavier than she'd been mid-summer. This was because she was pregnant.
She didn't gain weight after Worlds 2012 or after Worlds 2013. Tanith retired in 2010 and didn't pack on pounds.
Furthermore, nobody is saying every time somebody gains weight they're pregnant. People and the blog, are saying the ONE time Tessa gained weight, she WAS pregnant. She maintained an even weight every season after that, and suddenly close on the heels of the end of these past Olympics, she's glowy and healthy but acquiring the same body changes that happened last time she was pregnant. She's also a married woman with a three year old daughter that she and Scott don't intend to be an only child. Whatever their competitive future, this is the time to add to the family. As I said, last time I knew, this time I don't KNOW but a) Tessa's weight does NOT fluctuate; she gained weight when pregnant, the end; and b) she looks just like she did last time she was pregnant, and is starting to use some of the same wardrobe tricks - huge scarf, wide shoulders.
Wow. FSU is such a shithole at times these days. They way D/W ubers are getting their panties in a bunch over the number of votes V/M are getting in the "Best ice dance team" thread is just too funny. It's hilarious. Xela M bullying people for putting V/M in the same sentence as the 'greats', then comparing Davis to Grishuk in another thread is dumbshittingly idiotic and amusing.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing similar about Oksana Grishuk and Meryl Davis is their gender. Xela M is a turd.
Deletei thought xela was a grishuk fan? comparing meryl to grishuk is an insult to grishuk tbh
DeleteXela M is quite disingenuous in posting. S/he keeps dragging up old gossip/scandal just to prop up Grishuk at the expense of others. I think that no one involved in the Usova/Zhulin/Grishuk/Platov fiasco was innocent of partner politics. Grishuk may have been a victim in some ways (and boy, did the North American press loved to rag on her), but I think she also took advantage of her infamous rep. Xela M likes to bash other skaters to make Oksana look good.
DeleteMeryl Davis cannot compare. In all aspects Oksana is a far superior ice dancer, politics or no politics.
Is she the one who has been running all over the internet for years claiming Gordeeva had an affair with Zhulin and cheated on Sergei with him? There's been someone hitting up youtube and I think places like wiki for years with that one.
DeleteI agree about Grishuk. I'm not a huge fan, and my memory of Grishuk Platov is of a couple of frantic movers. But when I went back to see their 1994 Olympic free, Grishuk is executing her rock'n'roll program with her edges, translating floor dance style to her blades. Everybody at the top in 1994 skated well, and I don't agree with the outcome, but there is no question she's a superior ice dancer.
I don't know if s/he's the one who first claimed the alleged Gordeeva/Zhulin affair, but the thing I've noticed for the past several weeks about Xela M, is that s/he's been rehashing everything (or almost everything) related to Grishuk at FSU.
DeleteI can see why you'd remember Grishuk/Platov as frantic movers, and it's kind of frustrating because they were great ice dancers with good musicality, and capable of phrasing, pacing & control, but chose to emphasize speed instead. I could watch them do CDs over and over (except for waltzes, which did not suit Grishuk well). Libertango was a masterpiece; DW should have taken notes on how two non-romantically involved people could still sizzle on the ice. And I would rate GP's 1997 Worlds Arabian Passion FD much higher than DW's milksop Scheherazade.
Hey guess what, I can do this dumb-ass shit too.
ReplyDeleteBehold, the pinnacle of synchronicity.
http://oi57.tinypic.com/2ibeqdi.jpg
http://oi60.tinypic.com/121qus6.jpg
http://oi58.tinypic.com/rsxa3p.jpg
http://oi58.tinypic.com/xptz4h.jpg
Phew, what a waste of time. I all of a sudden feel so low for having to do that to make an argument about someone.
0/10 try again. next time be more specific. two of the images you used is not from the twizzle sequence but from the step sequence. one img their blades are still paralleled so they're technically still synchronized.
DeleteAll from the twizzle sequence... a true V/M fan would know this. And check out the limb placements in the one you're talking about... yeah.
DeletePlease post the link to the video you took the screencaptures from and the approximate time frame in the video we should be looking in.
DeleteI got the video from here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqM6-Fh-o-0.
DeleteHere are some more caps from the twizzle sequence, with the timebar not cropped out this time.
http://oi61.tinypic.com/283tk9.jpg (oops, their blades are 180 degrees in the OPPOSITE direction!)
http://oi58.tinypic.com/mwuw0j.jpg (now their heads are facing in the opposite direction... tsk tsk.)
http://oi59.tinypic.com/144cqqb.jpg (this is very close to the shot I got earlier... their limbs are not matched. Tessa, what are you doing with your arm?)
http://oi62.tinypic.com/os6gw3.jpg (world class twizzles, here..)
http://oi60.tinypic.com/nqxw1z.jpg (Oh dear.)
uh no this one is from their circular step sequence. http://oi58.tinypic.com/rsxa3p.jpg.
DeleteYou know 9:50, of course, that video (not jpgs) of VM actually skating, compared to DW actually skating, makes DW look actually worse. In your gifs, their body lines match, their alignment matches, the angles of their bodies match. Tessa's arm is elevated higher than Scott's but the ANGLE of her arm matches his. Their posture matches. I know a DW fan can almost be excused for believing alignment is all about the arms and joints, and not about the alignment and matching angles of the entire body, because DW are so fucked up Charlie can be hunched and and his free leg clutched tightly to the inside of his thigh and Meryl can be stiff but tilted with her catch-foot clutched to her at a completely different angle than Charlie's.
DeleteFurthermore these twizzles are actually gifed in full here. We can SEE who is out of sync, further apart, and don't have matching body lines.
8:25 - why don't you link to video or gifs of DW skating well? A step sequence, for example.
DeleteYou know we can go to any program of VM's, even when not at their best, and find countless instances, because they always skate well, and when they're less than perfect, it's when there's a mistake or error. The actual skating is always superior throughout.
Go ahead. Link to where DW skate well. I hope we're all still alive when you come up with one.
8:25 - You obviously believe the jpgs are meaningless. They're not, even your jpgs of Tessa/Scott demonstrate that they're superior to DW. Not only do the examples you've capped reflect much tinier micro-instances of time out of rotational sync, they demonstrate that Tessa and Scott's body angles and alignment are not only individually far superior to Meryl and Charlie's, but that their angles and alignment match each other's. Alignment emanates from the core. The hips, the pelvis, the trunk and chest. The shoulders need to bet settled and the chest open. The neck long. You're looking at an arm and missing their entire freaking bodies. You look at Tessa's leg bent in a spin transition and miss that she's turned out from the hip and her back is long and extended from the hips.
DeleteYou can't see because you don't know what you're talking about. But, you've established that you think jpgs are ridiculous. Do you think skating is ridiculous? Are you as big a skating expert as you are a tango expert? Here's what you can do. Link to a competition where DW skated better than VM. Just one. They broke records left and right, they beat VM at every meeting. In this past quad, link to a competition where the content, performance, execution and skating skills demonstrated by DW were manifestly better than VM's. Do it.
Or are you next going to scoff that we can't tell who is better by actually watching the actual skating? It's some kind of magic reading between the lines the judges are doing?
You think gifs and jpgs are stupid. You're wrong. The gifs and jpgs are breaking down and isolating what is already obviously visible in the actual skating observed in real time. You don't like tham. Okay. Link to the skating where DW are better versus VM. You're really pissed off, so you must feel the blog is being unjust. If the blog is being unjust, you must then believe DW are legitimately better, and can link to a skating performance of theirs vis a vis VM that proves it. Do so.
Also their blades aren't 180 in the opposite direction. more like if they were their bodies would also be in the opposite direction.
DeleteI should correct my comment above because DW most certainly did not "beat" VM at every meeting. The judging panels put down preposterious, unearned scores that had zero to do with anything DW did on the ice. DW have never beaten VM on the ice.
Deleteoc
That wasn't a great argument 825. 3/4 of those links are just fine and make no point whatsoever. You seem to be unaware of what you are screen capping. I am certain that the first three are not meant to be in perfect synchronization because they do not appear to be from the twizzles pass. Without a point of reference for context it is ridiculous to post a bunch of caps.
ReplyDeleteTake note that the intelligent discussion regarding the rules and how dw bastard I've them always provide a point of reference. If your caps are from the twizzles, ss, transitions you need to indicate it so that the rules can be applied to the element in question
You can deny all you want, doesn't change the evidence right in front of you. And even though they ARE from the twizzles, tell me honestly, is there any point in the program where they intentionally turn in a non-synchronized fashion? The answer to that is no. I guess you'll just have to swallow this one.
DeleteAnon 9:18: Who has the (undeserved) OGM and world records for programs full of out-of-synch twizzles, fucked-up elements, non-skating in between the elements, and inane filler? That would be D/W. So V/M were out slightly out of synch coming of their SS. Does that invalidate everything else they did in the program? Give me a break.
DeleteI'm not 9:18, and that person is being obnoxious about it but does have a point. Screencaps only shows a split second and so can be easily manipulated to argue anything. Even twizzles that look perfectly synchronized will look off in some screencaps and no one looks like a perfect ballerina 100% of the time. Gifs are a much better way of highlighting D/W's deficiencies- and twizzles are the least of them, not sure why so much time is spent obsessing over them.
DeleteTwizzles are one of the few elements a layperson can recognize in an ice dance program, and are unique to ice dance. I think that's why.
DeleteAlso, the twizzles HAVE been gifed and it is blatantly obvious that VM's are faster, smoother, closer together and the lines of their bodies match. If there is a screen cap where Tessa gets there faster than Scott, so that they're facing different directions, that cap catches a much tinier instant in time than the much longer time out of sync demonstrated by DW, and in those moments, their hips, shoulders, chests, necks, pelvis legs and feet - their technique, their carriage - match even if she's a split instant ahead in a screen cap.
Davis White often blatantly carryithemselves in the twizzles completely differently, while Scott and Tessa CARRY themselves the same way, in harmony with each other's carriage. And these things are visible in the jpgs being linked above.
Davis White's gaps and out of sync habits in their twizzles are blatant - visible watching the video in real time. The screen cap isolates what we first easily see with the naked eye. This isn't a micro-moment, as it is with VM. Micro moments where the two skaters match each other's carriage, alignment, shoulders, chest, hips are not the same as blatant moments where one cramped skater who is hunched over is twizzling out of sync with another who is straight up and down or even tilted forward and her catch foot is at the opposite angle from her hips as his.
Even when Tessa (or Scott) has stumbled in a twizzle, her the alighnment of her body, her twizzle technique from her blade up to the top of her head, is in harmony with Scott's. They're doing the same thing the same way. And this is even more obvious in gifs. We're not micro-capturing something when we screen cap DW, we're isolating something that was just visible to the naked eye.
I do think a screencap can be taken out of context, and a DW fan screencapping a few milliseconds from VM's twizzles is a clever exercise, but what about IN context? Let's see twizzles in screencap, and twizzles in gif. Let's view the twizzles in the context of a whole program. Then let's watch aWaltzflower's videos documenting all of the top teams' twizzles over the years. Let's see who has variety, superior ice coverage, unison, speed IN CONTEXT. And then let's look at how it was scored, what the GOE was, in that and other competitions and see if there's a pattern.
ReplyDeleteAnd then tell me DW were better. Don't just hit and run four screencaps of VM and tell me zomg, they are just as bad! Yes, if VM fans were only doing that to showcase that DW's medals were undeserved, that would be lame, but that's not even close to the reality.
Screen-capping isn't intended to "prove" that DW are a mess, but to isolate key points of the mess that is already more than obvious to the naked eye watching video of the performance. IOW, it's a deconstruction of their jacked up alignment and other wtf-ery, such as their dumbed down lift mechanics. And it's a deconstruction of the signature fact of every program they skate, which is compensation. JPG's help freeze what exactly their programs and technique need to compensate for, and most of it resides with Meryl.
DeletePlease note we're not even dealing with SKATING here when we talk about this. Does the person gifing Tessa want to do that instead? Talk about what's going on with Meryl's blades and Charlie's blades? How about close holds? How about changes of direction and ice coverage? Is the person gifing Tessa wanting everyone to focus on that stuff instead?
When the blog, for example, isolates and screen caps Meryl in a lift, it's not mocking her lines, per se, although they are nothing to write home about. It's freeze-framing the mechanics to show that she is unable to manage her own body, something that is absolutely clear when we watch it in live action. JPGs just shows the detail of what she is doing to secure herself against Charlie, and vice versa, that is primitive and dumbed down compared to other skaters at the top.
For example, in the upside-down lift, what exactly is unfair or misleading about the difference in technique/mechanics between Tessa in a candle position and Meryl in a .. upside down position? Am I unfairly catching a micro-moment by showing Meryl has Charlie in a freaking headlock? Look at his face trapped He looks like a large baby about to crown face-first through some giant nether mom maw. He's buried.
Is that misleading? That .jpg is NOT the mechanics of that move? that's not how Meryl is supporting herself while upside down?
Did I magically catch Tessa looking good in her candle lift, and before and after somebody will be able to show that she jams Scott's head between her armpit and elbow so that his little face peeks out forlornly looking like some perverted dandelion center in a Cyndy Sherman painting that uses a woman's arm to substitute for petals?
They're not only often out of sync in the twizzle rotations, but their bodies are out of alignment with each other, as well as demonstrating poor alignment individually. For example, Charlie hunches when he does the catch foot, and his thigh tends to be close to his body at a straight up and down angle while his butt juts. Meryl's body tends to pitch forward, and when she does the catch foot you could drive a truck through the gap.
When the blog shows screen caps, it has already shown context. Our frenzied DW fan visitor has not shown context. I wonder if they think context would be DW's friend and not VM's. I've requested, and am waiting for, the links to competitions that demonstrate how unfair the blog's jpgs are, how misleading, and how much DW deserved, via what they put on the ice, their successive wins over VM.
More from neverendingdream
ReplyDeletehttp://never-endingdream.tumblr.com/tagged/back-to-watching-Tessa-and-Scott
"All from the twizzle sequence... a true V/M fan would know this."
ReplyDelete"And even though they ARE from the twizzles, "
Why on earth would you keep insisting this? Two of the links - the first and third one (from the set of four without the time bars) are very clearly from the circular step sequence. You know this because you capped them yourself. Look at the place on the ice and the position they're doing, it's obvious, and it's easy to tell you're lying.
Totally agree with those saying it's much more useful to see things in context rather than in screencaps alone, so here - split the difference and watch in slow-mo. Twizzle elements (x.125 speed), and step sequence twizzles (x.25 speed).
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/l2fdy5b7b5snztj/twizzles.mp4
http://www.veoh.com/watch/v71035233BqGbGyQa
Only one Double Twizzle is necessary to get a L4 in step sequences. V/M have two in both step sequences. In D/W's circular, the first one is under-rotated by Meryl, but the exit step looks designed to work with whatever they manage. It's their second one that is probably their "real" double. They also have a single that I didn't include. In D/W's diagonal, they have only one double, but then two back-to-back singles that I included anyways because it's such a mess.
After D/W's double twizzle in the diagonal, Charlie catches his toepick, when they're supposed to be showing off their matching leg lines. I wonder how noticeable it was from the judges viewpoint, I would imagine GOE docking might have been in order.
Will have new PCS videos coming before long! Some things have just been stuck in the development stage for a while.
Youtube actually allowed my video^, but I think it's just because it's partial footage, I have other Olympic videos that are still blocked.
Deletehttp://youtu.be/r5ReewOkkVg
Also, some food for thought for anyone (not here specifically, but the fandom at large) who claims to care about things like V/M's ability to match (or deep edges, complicated holds, etc. for that matter), but in the next breath says there's no one worth watching if V/M retire.
http://youtu.be/wjNLG9ImZHU
I've uploaded the video and am also breaking it down into smaller clips, and, where practical, gifs. If I have correctly i.d.'d the place where Charlie catches his toepick, EVERYTHING they're doing there is a mess. That's just the cherry on top.
Deleteoc
"Also, some food for thought for anyone (not here specifically, but the fandom at large) who claims to care about things like V/M's ability to match (or deep edges, complicated holds, etc. for that matter), but in the next breath says there's no one worth watching if V/M retire.
Deletehttp://youtu.be/wjNLG9ImZHU"
I agree, 1:58. VM were/are a very special team in their ability to do all of the things they do on the ice all at once. They used to travel a bit in their combination spin, but in the last two seasons, they worked on that a lot. VM are, essentially, a team with no weaknesses in their skating or dancing. Their ability to combine dance and skating is unlike anything I've ever seen before and something we may never see again.
However, there are teams out there who do a lot of what VM do/did. Maybe not all of it and not at all at the same time, but they're doing it.
If you look at teams like Chock/Bates, Coomes/Buckland, Gilles/Poirer, yes, you're going to fall into despair. Even if you look at teams like Cappelini/Lanotte and Weaver/Poje, it's easy to get a bit down. Both are improved, but both have limits and both are probably maxed out or closed to maxed out in terms of their abilities.
However, if you start looking beyond that, then you see that there are talented young teams whose ice dancing has a lot of the same qualities as VM. Besides PI, I'm really excited about their training mates Hubbell and Donahue. They also seem to have zero interest or inclination in selling out their skating and dancing. They're also beautiful skaters, with the edges, and the speed, power, and flow. They lost 6 weeks of training time last summer due to a concussion and were only able to manage maybe a full run through once a week due to Madison's hip injury this last season, but they're a team that's progressing very nicely.
The thing to remember about both HD and PI is that both are young. HD were only paired in May 2011. PI have only been together for 5 years. Both teams have had to deal with injuries and federation politics that did not go in their favor. Both teams have things they need to continue to work on--and the list of things for each team doesn't quite or at all overlap with what the other team needs to work on. However, both of these teams are close to the brink with their ice dancing. I have fears for both in terms of politics and whether what they do will be rewarded in the judging, but the skating itself and the potential of both of these teams is something to get excited about. They both just need a little more time.
There are teams out there worth watching. You just have to sort through the mess the ISU has made with the judging and placements.
I don't think anyone has to be compelled to like H&D or P&I just because they are a V&M fan. I can recognize the quality of P&I's skating without personally enjoying it. I hope the judges give them marks they deserve, but it doesn't mean I'm interested in watching them. I like H&D fine, but they alone are not enough for me to continue following ice dance. And it shows how fucked up the sport is that you have to look past all the teams that actually made the podium and most of the top 10 in order to find a couple of teams with good qualities (I would also mention Hurtado/Diaz).
DeleteFor me, this is the perfect time to kiss the sport goodbye.
Of course, you don't have to enjoy P/I etc. or continue watching ice dance, but if you're a fan of going around saying you like V/M *because* of their quality, because of the qualities that other teams obviously share [if not to the same level yet, although matching is the one thing P/I are on par with V/M, IMO] then that is extremely hypocritical. I know V/M fans who go around condescending that they're such connoisseurs of ice dance, when it seems clear that they enjoy V/M for being V/M, but not for being the epitome of quality ice dance. V/M were a once in a generation team, and we will all miss them, but quality ice dance will continue without them, and those that were in it for THAT primarily have no reason to leave.
Delete(Not saying you're one of these fans who are being inconsistent, I have no problem with fans who were in it for V/M's specialness, but some of the things I read about their impending retirement is ridiculous. Fine people, leave, but the end of ice dance is not nigh. At least not because of them, the ISU can always screw things up more, I suppose.)
OC, the toepick moment is at 4:02.
DeleteI'm new to ice dance but in watching the old VM programs and sometimes having the stomach to watch DW --what stands out the most besides skills--is the innovative and creative programs VM put out...and DW they got nothing--nothing spectacular or new ---just basic stuff that is below what VM were putting out in their junior programs.
ReplyDeleteOh the judges and DW fans are so messed up.