I don't see many ballerinas with the torso tight, chest closed, hips tight and closed, shoulders nearly hunched, and chin down facing the floor or ice. This is almost freakish.
See the difference?
See the difference?
Forget the toes. And the skating. Look at the torso, the shoulders, the chest, the neck (not snapped back, btw), the pelvis and the hips. Everything's stretched, lifted, open.
See the difference directly below? Straight up and down. The body isn't connected, there's nothing running "through" the body. And look at that dropped elbow.
See the difference?
Let's look back at the top again.
I'm having issues embedding Meryl and Charlie's dances from last night, so I'll have to troubleshoot that later.
ETA - okay, here we go:
I haven't broken thse down yet, but I bet Charlie wouldn't have dropped the cane if he engaged his upper body fully when he moves. Charlie trends to "quick" but small. He doesn't really articulate his body unless it's where it's been particularly broken down for him and emphasized by his instructor, and then defaults back to small. He might have caught the cane before it flew away if he didn't have that habit. He needs to keep his chest and shoulders open.
But note that at the end, Sharna is able to rotate without Charlie hunkering down and girdling her with his arm, pasting her to his trunk, and pushing her legs straight.
I do think his partner is a class act, that they connect well, and it helps him phrase, cue off her, and lose himself more in the performance. He shouldn't, IMO, start getting fast-but-unfinished when he starts getting into the performance, but that happened less here than in the jive.
And as for Meryl, I thought this was her best performance in terms of moving with some naturalness and relaxation added into her jackhammer movement style, but then again, there wasn't exactly a ton of movement, period. There were glimpses of samba in tiny segments. It was like DW skating programs (and like Maks' choreography, which means he and Meryl are a match made in heaven) - show a minimal amount of the actual dance - dance, hell, minimize steps, period, and vamp with the upper body. Execute super complicated open hold moves like moving side by side across the floor or ice in a stright line facing the same direction and then switch from right to left in an arm's length hand hold. That blew up the scoreboard in Schez, if memory serves.
Gifs after the jump.
I'm going to put them up and comment more later but I think most of the "samba" speaks for itself. If anybody can explain some of the WTF, feel free.
You know what I just now noticed, and realize happened in the AT too - she tries to or actually does hop or jump in direction changes even on the floor. Look at the elementary direction changes in this "samba". Little hops, up-jerks and jumps all over the place (and I don't mean the samba "bounce", but when she changes direction).
I can't remember what part of samba this is but Meryl is killing it.
See that part where they sort of turn the shadow/samba roll and then take these hurried little scramble steps all bent over before they do the next one? I"m not sure about that part. Also Meryl swinging her leg out, open and behind her as punctuation doesn't scream samba to me.
I feel like they ran in straight lines from one end of the floor to the other, doing the twist from the waist up, and that was all she wrote. That is when he didn't throw in erzatz ballroom flourishes, because the samba is like that.
http://www.teamusa.org/Video/2014/04/10/Qualified--Charlie-White-and-Meryl-Davis-Gold-Medal-Recap--Episode-5
ReplyDeleteThere's practice footage of the ballerina number here.
In other news, from Len a 10 for Charlie! With a glaring undeniable error aside from the usual wtfs.
This season is fucked up. There are good dances and okay dances but I've never seen just good-okay-nice job dances get tens halfway through the season - for everybody.
Deleteoc
Everything surrounding DW's successes (skating or DWTS) is WEIRD. All the acclaim that belongs to the very best of the best is heaped on this team that has at best average skills. And average is saying a lot. When you break down anything they do their skills are actually below average. And no one in the world is allowed to say so. WHAT THE HELL.
DeleteNo one is allowed to say so BECAUSE they're that bad. Remember fable of the Emporer's New Clothes. Guy was naked and nobody said - nice outfit. Or look, there's the Emporer! Nope, everybody was falling over themselves saying it was the most magnificent garb ever worn.
DeleteThat's how it works, that's how it is. The bigger the fraud, the louder the claims must be that it's true. Charlie and Meryl can't just be good skaters, they have to be the best on earth with world records. I know I keep beating the gong but everything about them is overcompensation, from the skating itself to the narrative to the scores. It has to be SO overblown like they can't afford to keep it within reason. It must be the stratosphere, so audacious people almost feel intimidated.
And I'll tell you, I"m getting closer to believing I'm right about Meryl having some joint issue. It's in that arm hooked behind her when Val is holding her in the splits. There's one message board that talked about her unusual under arm/shoulder muscular development from a life of that reach back during routines. But WHY does she need that kind of back-hook/reach back when Val's holding her like that? Why not just an arm or hand on his shoulder - Val is VERY stable, and a touch can be plenty to secure yourself when the set up is what we see in that video.
In ice dance I thought it might be to secure herself during Charlie's rotation. Her equilibrium seems iffy at best and maybe she can't stableize herself even when centrifugal force is working in her favor. However in that clip, Val isn't turning fast enough for centrifugal force to kick in. He's turning slowly. And STILL she has to not just have her arm on him, but HOOK that fucker behind her, around his shoulder, up to her own armpit and grip with her hand. Her muscles are actually clenched. What the unholy hell? So I'm thinking joints, that if she didn't have it hooked, she's just collapse through the hips like a rag doll. She really IS some kind of living rag doll. It's not about the challenge to her stability from skating or athletics. She just has none, period, even when unchallenged.
oc
Last week there were rumors that Charlie is doing poorly in the ratings, this week he suddenly gets a 10. I don't think this is coincidental.
DeleteJealousy is tough to deal with, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteWhat are we jealous of?
Deleteoc
Sshhhh.. it's ok. I'll keep your secret. 8)
DeleteMaybe work on keeping your own first.
DeleteLook... clearly this has to do with jealousy. How can this much effort be put in over Ms. Davis unless it was jealousy-driven? Oh, I get it. You have your screen-shots and your pseudo-intellectual analysis of her positions and dancing, but let's be real here. The only other thing it could be is hatred, which would be rather sad and pitiful, because after all, "only the unloved hate. The unloved and the unnatural."
DeleteJealousy? Of DW's magnificence that is total crap when you look closely?
DeleteNice try.
why would i be jealous of davis shitty posture and lines?
DeleteIt could quite possibly be because she the Olympic Gold Medalist over a favorite of yours, but it's just a hunch.
Deletey'all know if the usfsa wasn't in cahoots with russian fed and skate canada wasn't incompetent, d/w would've never been OGM
DeleteHow is that jealousy, though? Someone is JEALOUS that Davis's shitty posture, lines and skating got gold over somebody better? Really?
DeleteHow would jealousy be the reason, setting aside "just jellus" has been pitiful commentary since the dawn of the internet, why would her getting gold over Virtue Moir incite jealousy, in particular? Jealous of what? That a corrupt system gave it to her in the face of on ice evidence that's in front of everyone's face, including the face of DW fans since they can't argue what's on ice is better, they can only pathetically claim the videos are doctored?
I think people can get pissed when an inferior team/performance is declared the winner over an inferior team, but where, exactly, does the jealousy part come in? Let's say someone stole an election. Are we jealous of the winner? Really? You think it's jealousy. That's your hunch.
Nobody's "jealous" of Meryl wearing a gold medal over someone else's "favorite". People are pissed at the corruption in ice dance that awarded an inferior team over a superior team. Yes, a lot of people happen to have superior teams as their favorites, because that's what they value in the sport - the actual skating. The favoritism is driven by them being the best skaters.
And *I* think maybe you came here because some DW fans were swooning over what is patently inferior lines and posture and dance ability in Meryl Davis as illustrated in that screencap, and so when someone notices not only is Tessa Virtue better, but so is a woman who didn't make the top ten, and that Meryl's lines are actually bad, it irks. If DW fans ENJOY the fact that their favorite ice dancer is inferior and still won, that's their perogative, of course. They have certainly never been able to claim she's superior and back it up.
oc
8:39 - exactly. It's not as if Davis & White actually won the OGM. Anybody with eyes who saw the Olympics knows they didn't.
Deleteoc
Of course I'm jealous of a woman who had to have an aggressive PR campaign and her federation engineer a false narrative of artistic and technical superiority just to get her and her undeserving partner an Olympic gold (roll eyes).
DeleteI think the problem is 7:02 that you hate analysis and you hate that the blog and other places look at and easily deconstruct Davis & White' patently obvious fake skating. You can slap "pseudo" in front all you want, but as with every other DW fan visitor here, you can't provide alternative analysis that relates to the rules. There's no case. There's nothing pseudo about the analysis of Davis White - it's slam dunk. It's also unprecedented in the annals of inferior skating - they're different to every other set of bad skaters, and DWTS is a window to possibly deconstructing some of the ways that is.
DeleteCriticizing isn't the same as hate, unless of course, you hate that your favorite is being - justifiably - criticized. As to how someone spends their time, a lot of DW fans seem extremely troubled by the existence of this blog, judging by how often they visit and attempt to act out in the comments section, when you'd think they wouldn't care and would still be celebrating the stolen gold and, in general, have better things to do with their time.
I think they can't celebrate because they know everybody who knows anything about skating knows it was stolen, and say so, and, they know that's right. They just wish people - like the blog - would shut up.
If it's NOT correct, then it must be very easy to point out how Davis White won on the merits. The rules and guidelines are out there. They're easy to read. The basics of superior skating skills are easy to not just read about, but observe in skaters on the ice. Yet no DW fan has managed to tie the two together - their claims for DW's skating matched with the criteria, rules and standards by which they were given points. It's just like when they'd rather talk about Virtue and Moir than Davis White. They'd also rather talk about Davis and White's critics than Davis White. Because when they talk skating and Davis White, they lose.
oc
I also want to know why Meryl is skating in that position but her upper arms are pasted to her side and she's just got her forearms bent to reach to the other skaters. Are they all skating with that bizarre arm position or just her?
Deleteoc
@6:50 and presumably 7:02 and 8:02: familiar tactic of chalking it up to jealousy and hatred...of course you can't address the actual analysis. the issues with Meryl's and Charlie's respective techniques are obvious to many of us who have actually danced and/or followed dance. Pointing out these weaknesses is not hateful. It is the kind of criticism that every other dancer or skater is subjected to.
DeleteYou can attempt to dismiss the analysis "pseudo" though without being able to explain why it is merely "pseudo" (i.e., fake). I think to them "pseudo" means "I don't like it", which isn't what pseudo means. Or to them "pseudo" means "Ha ha but the judges still had them ahead on points so they were given the gold medal!" which doesn't mean the analysis is pseudo either. The best way to establish a "pseudo" analysis is to point out the flaws and then provide a real one. Unfortunately that option isn't available to DW fans.
DeleteIn no universe should the word "ballerina" be mentioned alongside the name "Meryl Davis", unless it's joined together by "NOT". First of all, her body proportions are totally off when considering a ballet dancer, even in the less traditional/conservative companies. Secondly, even if she was somehow allowed to pass the physical requirements, she would never have made the cut because of the reasons OC already mentioned above and elsewhere on this blog. She's tight, hunched, stiff. Little to no extension. No sense of rhythm or musical phrasing.
ReplyDeleteThe people who compared her to a ballerina are delusional, and probably the same persons who think Charlie's the Baryshnikov of ice dance. I actually hope these people use "ballerina" in the pop culture/colloquial sense of the word, referring to female ballet dancers in general. It does not bear thinking for them to use it as the ballet world does, that is, to refer to the greats like Makarova and Fonteyn.
OT but the reference to Makarova reminds me of the story in Gelsey Kirkland's biography where she snipped off a tiny piece of Makarova's costume to wear when she danced, hoping some of what Makarova brought to the role would transfer to Kirkland thereby. Kirkland was as major a talent as there ever was in dance but as with all great talents, she could still see something in someone else or perceive her own shortcomings measured against what she wanted, and she admired Makarova enormously.
DeleteI don't think it was Makarova's dress..? I've not read Gelsey's book, but on a ballet message board, I remember a fan posting that it was Carla Fracci's tutu that she secretly took a snip of (Kirkland sneaked into Fracci's dressing room to do this). Specifically, Fracci's Giselle Act 2 costume. Usually a ballet company would be responsible for the costumes, but sometimes some principal dancers preferred to have certain costumes made elsewhere. If you watch CF's videos as Giselle, her tutu seemed especially floaty (important when you're playing a spirit and aim to give that illusion of weightlessness). IIRC, Gelsey discovered that the fabric was silk tulle.
DeleteIf GK had anything to be envious of about Makarova, it was the latter's Vaganova training, because Gelsey was schooled in Balanchine. Gelsey worked very hard when she switched to ABT from NYCB, because her training did not lend itself well to the classics; also, you really do have to work hard when you're dancing with Baryshnikov. The consensus seems to be that she acquitted herself very well with her eventual (hybrid) technique. Nowadays GK has her own academy, with Vaganova at the core, but also paying attention to Bournonville, mime, character dancing etc. There is a strong emphasis in narrative, in the storytelling aspect of ballet.
I'll have to re-check because I remember there was a lot that Makarova had that Kirkland envied, including, I believe, her neck. I only read the book once and it's possible my memory conflated the Makarova envy/admiration with the Fracci tutu incident. I definitely recall Kirkland's tale was she snuck into the dressing room to do it.
DeleteThere's also a strong emphasis on process, and Gelsey Kirkland focused a lot on that in her book as well. HOW you move (Alexander technique, for instance, and other influences) not just the result. In her book it was obvious she was drawn more to storytelling ballet than she was to the Ballanchine school or conceptual ballet (and I am no expert - this is all from casual reading), but when I've read more recent interviews from her she is also fascinated by development movement, how to articulate, explore, develop aspects of the movement vocabulary - there's so much there in some seemingly simple moves to make deeper, to express more, to experience.
When Scott and Tessa excitedly talk about their skating, when they did, I always felt this part of the process was part of their addiction to and love for training, that's just absent in skaters who want to nail the move and move on.
oc
I can very well believe that Gelsey envied a lot of what Natasha had. I can't remember reading if N was also desirous of some of G's qualities, but I wouldn't be surprised if she was. Gelsey was excellent at petit allegro (as should be, she was brought up Balanchine);I think Natasha was more of an adagio dancer. Both made marvelous Giselles though, even if they were very different ballerinas.
DeleteIndeed, Gelsey Kirkland Academy values process. Also, correct technique to maximize the dancer's natural gifts and to minimize the risk of injury. Training smartly, eating healthy. What you said about the movement vocabulary jives with what Gelsey expressed in an interview (about the school), that each step/movement should be imbued with meaning. It quite neatly slots in with the academy's (and Gelsey's) predisposition/focus towards classic/Romantic, narrative/storytelling ballets and the training for such.
Another person who loved process just as much (if not more) than Gelsey was her former partner, Baryshnikov. I find it quite fascinating that while G eventually gravitated towards the Russian classics, Misha's direction was toward Balanchine and modern. Baryshnikov loved process; he loved the time spent in the studio collaborating with choreographers. It was a perfect storm of circumstances that made B famous, but what tips him into greatness (for me at least), was that he was/is never satisfied. He was always hungry to dance, to explore, to learn. He could have danced the warhorses until he retired, but he didn't.
The freaking out by D/W fans in the FSU thread over scoring and Amy's lack of waltz content is kind of precious.
ReplyDeleteI'm kind of amazed that not only are there two girls on DWTs who are better movers than Meryl Davis - Danica and Amy, but there's a guy who is better than or on par with Charlie White (James). He's not perfect, but it appeared to me as if James has been putting quite a bit of work on his feet. Even the best DWTs celeb guys often go straight through to the final frequently flat footed or too much on their toes, or pigeon toed, or on the sides of their feet.
DeleteDanica was in close hold with Val a lot of the time and there were lots of steps using very fast feet, but he didn't have to hold her in place. At times I'm sure he was carrying her, but she managed her own body far more of the time, could do a sequence without a reset, and could work in hold far better than Meryl.
fsu often has factions pretending to be a fan of a team, but they're actually only fans of one member of the team. The other member is supposed to devote themselves to the fsu favorite and worship them/validate them. In the past, among VM fans, it was Tessa who got short shrift and any fretting over her CES was down to - what would it do to Scott's Olympic hopes? Is it too late for him to find another partner! And not so much worrying about her legs. Although things equaled out somewhat after the Carmen season and they realized, go figure, Tessa is actually talented!
DeleteWith Meryl and Charlie, as soon as Charlie gets - what - one point higher than Meryl after two weeks of Meryl tenning it, some fans begin to whine that Charlie didn't deserve a ten. While I'm not his biggest fan, his routine last night had about ninety times the content of Meryl's and Maks', and dropping three canes wouldn't drop it to the level of Meryl and Maks.
When Charlie stumbled in the scoring over the past couple of weeks, there were no complaints. People were celebrating Meryl's scores and figuring Charlie worshipped Meryl so much her tens were his tens. Here, Meryl is one point lower than he is and it is so so so unfair. He didn't deserve that ten!
I know the blog is jealous and all, but I get a feeling that some of Meryl's fans are insecure about her.
"I know the blog is jealous and all, but I get a feeling that some of Meryl's fans are insecure about her. "
Deleteno kidding not only is tessa more beautiful than meryl but more importantly, tessa can actually dance. but to me, what makes tessa more beautiful is not only her face, sense of style or whatever but its her posture, her lines, her extension, her back arch. tessa has more grace in the tip of her fingers than meryl would ever dream to have.
10:15 AM, I actually meant I felt many DW fans were insecure about MERYL, not so much Meryl vis a vis Tessa, although that would be understandable. Just vis a vis her as herself. I was describing how on DWTs, Charlie's scores are mostly taken in stride whether they're high or whether Len throws him a seven. It's when he outscores Meryl two weeks running that fans get upset and challenge his dancing and his scores. Her outscoring him with strings of tens two weeks running didn't bother them at all; nor did his fall to the middle of the pack. In fact they spun it that he'd be happier with her tens than if he'd gotten his own.
DeleteLast night he makes a comeback consisting of scoring one point ahead of her (from Len) and there's bitching about it. He didn't deserve a ten! What the hell.
As an aside, and in terms of storyboarding, I think it usually means something when Len gives tens. Meryl's not had a ten from him. I'm sure she will, with the promiscuous way the show is tossing them like candy this season, but the way it's worked in the past on DWTs, mid-late season, is some front runner is routinely tenned, except if you stop to notice, not getting a ten from Len. Len's awards his first ten to someone other than the perceived front runner/scoring favorite. It happens at a particular point in the show, and I think last night was it, and I believe it is the show tipping its hand a bit.
Once that point happens and is past, all of the judges, including Len, trip over themselves to award tens to everybody, in what, I assume, is an attempt to create the impression it's anybody's game or up to the fans.
And going back to fans and skating teams: I was noticing that fans of skating teams often favor one member of the team over another. It's all for one and one for all until one member is seen to not enable the other sufficiently, then the fandom sort of turns on that person. For a long time, and on general skating message boards, Tessa was just a foil to Scott. She was only treated well as far as she was perceived to be helping him towards his gold medal. He mattered, she was a means to an end.
And Charlie seems to matter only as a means of validating Meryl.
The real fan interest was in Scott and then in Meryl, between these teams. I think many VM fans got over it when many started a) catching on to VM and realizing you really couldn't separate them, as they were far more than skating partners and platonic buds (and therefore she mattered a great deal more to Scott than fans had assumed, off the ice as well as on); and b) when Carmen happened and fans were all - oh my, she's quite spectacular in her own right.
i think it was before carmen i think it was during their latin sd/fd because lets face it scott isn't really strong at latin ballroom, not compared to tessa. she shines.
Delete^^ Didn't Scott say in an interview that no-one would be looking at him anyway, because they were going to put Tessa out front? I think he was only half joking! Tessa was amazing in that Majer FD and then the SD, you couldn't take your eyes off her. It's so hard to translate Latin to the ice, but Tessa has to be one of the best. Can anyone recommend other ice dancers who were good at making Latin on ice look like Latin on the floor? I'd like to check them out.
DeleteI disagree, to an extent. I think Scott held his own in Latin. But having seen them side by side in group numbers, Tessa does edge him out just a bit. She's just that incredible.
DeleteI also think Candace's samba is worth taking a look at in comparison. It's certainly had issues of its own, but she was actually trying to do the steps and move her hips in some places vs. whatever is going on in 2:50 of Meryl's. She's literally just walking forward.
Deletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcnP2S7QO0o
Does anyone else think Meryl needs to stay away from the spray tan booth? She reminds me of Ross from the Friends episode - "The One with Ross's Tan". Not a good look at all.
DeleteWell one thing that I can say is the costume designing department at DWTS are pure genuises at disguising the body parts that should be emphasized for a particular dance during Meryl's dances...and ouch on the spray tan...
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkLwzhKHmCk
ReplyDeleteThis is just sad.
Or I don't know, is the one ballerina weird because she can't dance? Brilliant work by Jeff then, it serves a dual purpose. Tessa will be weird because she's so good she breaks the mold.
DeleteAnon at 2:11 pm - thanks for bringing that video over...hmm I guess Meryl is allergic to tutus...lol...but yikes I have to agree that that was cringeworthy..my eyes...now I have to find VMs ballet exhibition piece I think back in either 2008 or 2009 in Japan...
Deletelmao @ meryl's back arch. she's supposed to be the star of the show but she doesn't stand out
DeleteShe does stand out IMO. She's out of sync with the others much of the time, and the other girls have better lines, carriage and timing, for the most part.
DeleteMeryl aside, that has to be one of the worst SOI numbers I have every seen...
DeleteThey're all pretty awful but Meryl's shoulders are a continuing mystery. Still, there are places where, on a flat though she may be, she's sustaining more of a glide than she ever did ice dancing.
DeleteIt would be an interesting program with better dancers and more practice time.
DeleteOn one hand, if Buttle choreographed this, then he obviously was inspired by Tessa (his muse). On the other hand, if I were him, I would have thought long and hard before doing a ballet-themed number, because while women in skating are usually graceful, it's rare to see ballet-type grace (like Tessa, and to a lesser extent, Alexandra Paul). This type of skating number did not do the female cast members any favors (Meryl must privately loath it). Buttle would have been better off choreographing something else.
DeleteIt looks terrible
DeleteIs it possible the micromanaging on behalf of DW has infected SOI? There seems to be a concerted effort to establish that Meryl is balletic--a ballerina. The exhibition program Marina choreographed for them is attempting that narrative for Meryl. And now this. Big fails on all counts.
DeleteMeryl sucks at being a ballerina. Either these choreographers have been drinking the kool-aid or they know exactly how deficient Meryl is in this area and they don't care who sees it.
What is it with this team that something is only SAID ("they're balletic" or "they're professional ballroom dancers") and people fall over themselves asserting it is true in spite of the evidence of their own eyes. Like it's been said already--it's WEIRD.
That number is godawful. All the girls look awful. And bulky. How do you make female skaters look bulky and cumbersome in ballet outfits - I guess leg warmers and wrap sweaters that hit the worst part of their bodies - but how do skaters have a worse body? They're clumsy, slow, and have no line. It's terrible. And Meryl fits right in - she's terrible. They all move like crap.
DeleteI'm wondering if we've ever had a North American skater or skating team hustled to the top in this way before. The North American media is powerful because it's disseminated globally, unlike the media, from, say, those corrupt RUSSIANS. The successful North American figure skaters have more or less earned their podium finish, and even sometimes fell to a Russian (Ukranian), like Oksana Bauil. I don't know if what happened with Davis White has ever been attempted before. As we all know, it's much easier to do with ice dance than any other sport. Singles skaters have a habit of falling, and it's easy for anyone to see who is jumping the highest and furthest. I'm sure a lot of dirt gets done in singles, but the jumps are the jumps, and falls are falls. Pairs, the same. Ice dance, I believe the consensus inside the sport is the civilian observer has no freaking idea what's going on on the ice, so you can pull off a hustle like this once it's been decided upon. I wonder WHY it was decided upon and never done before. Maybe because the nearest competitors (on paper) were also North American.
DeleteI may not mind Charlie White so much on DWTs, but I must say, every time he says "I won the Olympics" I say "No you didn't. They put you on the top of the podium and handed a gold medal over, but you most certainly did not win the Olympics."
I do get a kick out of how often he mentions Tanith. In the mixed zone after Monday's show, he mentioned that his life is so happy because he's buying a house with his gf of five years, won the Olympics and is on a great show. For some reason DW fans think he shouldn't bring up Tanith. But the only reason he DIDN'T prior to the Olympics was that packaging himself with Meryl was part of the off-ice snow job to get the gold for what they didn't do ON the ice. The DW fans seem to think all of that was genuine and "something's happened."
oc
^ i, too get a kick out of that as well. it pisses off d/w's new preteen fanbase who think d/w's chemistry is better than v/m because it is "pure" and "genuine" than V/M's "forced sexiness" lololol. d/w can try as hard to be v/m - to package and market themselves like v/m, but they'll never have the IT factor that makes v/m so special. i wish for happiness for charlie and tanith and i cant wait until they get married.
DeleteI was going to say Evan Lysacek, and some US ladies (didn't really matter who, as long as an American won), but yes, they didn't fall. You can work around that in the sense that, e.g., you can make quads worth so little that your star US skater can win without attempting one, or you can completely ignore flutzing and underrotations to the extent that a winning ladies performance from a decade ago might not have been credited with a single triple jump. I notice the quads were worth more once Lysacek retired, and the flutzing and UR penalties got really harsh after Cohen retired. Other countries had their own stuff going on of course (Biellman positions worth less for spins/spirals once Slutskaya retired), but it's pretty clear to me how the US political machinations have switched over the years, ceding ground in singles and gaining it in ice dance (elimination of CDs, choices in pattern dances, less ballroom and more "themes" like folk/hip-hop/1920s, the way that levels get awarded for twizzles, and what's said in ISU seminars).
DeleteBut then I guess Davis White also had to at least not fall in order to win, so maybe Lysacek is a good analogy. Check out his triple axel and how much of it was rotated on the ice. That stuff was ignored. His landings were fairly shaky too. And his skating skills and transitions were certainly nowhere near what his scores suggest. He should have been well behind someone like Takahashi there.
Unfortunately for us, I think the USFS is probably realizing ice dance is the easiest place to do this, because everything in ice dance is subjective. All of the levels and all of the GOE and all of the PCS are political. Unless someone falls, you can basically write up their protocol before the event and no one will know the difference. In singles, you can ignore a lot (URs, wrong edges, traveling spins, flats during footwork) and fluff GOE and PCS, but certain things in the program must be accounted for, like a popped jump, or a bonus for a jump done in the second half. The protocol can't ignore them and you can't pre-prepare the protocol. The protocol has to be a bit more reactive to the actual performance than in ice dance.
This 80-year-old grandmother can dance better than Meryl: http://www.superstarmagazine.com/80-year-old-grandma-steals-the-show-and-leaves-everyone-speechless/#
ReplyDeleteSometimes I feel that Davis can be a meme, in the same way that lots of books/films can be awful and be "still better than 'Twilight'". It'd be "_______ can dance better than Meryl", whether it's 80 yr olds or Purdy/Bure/whoever filling in the blanks. Meryl Davis is the 'Twilight' of ice dance -- bland, little personality, subpar.
DeleteLMAOO YAAAAAS^^^ EXCELLANT ANALOGY
DeleteI don't think the knock against Meryl is bland, no personality, but incredibly deficiency in movement and skating and yet being scored over someone who is the best in the world and proves it on the ice every time she and her partner (who is likewise the best in the world) compete against Meryl and Charlie. Meryl's performance on DWTs exposes her. Charlie has a lot of problems too but he can actually move and be taught. DWTs doesn't address his skating, which has real problems (those rocking blades, he, too, hits too many flats, and the major snow he kicks up, and the wide-stepping), but the show demonstrates clearly that it is Meryl with the fundamental movement deficiencies that impacted the design of their skating programs and helped make THEM even more deficient than their skating would otherwise have made them.
DeleteThis fluff piece about edges by CBC for 1994 Worlds is still relevant now; why can't we have more intelligent pieces like this, instead of the "Ice Dance is dangerous!" crap we were fed with all this season?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPujutTOIGs
Why are some of the DW fans being such assholes?
ReplyDeleteWhitneyskates:
"Since the media wasted no time asking the cast how the felt about competing against "professional" dancers like Meryl and Charlie, and Nene and Amy called them that as well, I really want the cast to be asked how they feel about competing against Amy since they now know she can break all the rules she wants and not get penalized for it.
It isn't Amy's fault, but I'm still ticked off about that. Charlie got a 7 because his dance included lifts, yet Amy gets three 9's and a 10.
...
I actually do mind, because it's not fair to Amy or anyone else. Charlie's rumba was definitely rumba-lite, but there was more content in that dance than anything Amy has done all season and yet he gets a 7 while Amy does very little waltzing, does two lifts, yet gets 9's and 10's and is told (literally) that she can do whatever she wants and they won't penalize her for it."
Um, I must have missed all that content in Charlie's rumba, which was generously scored given that there was no hip action to be found, it lacked extension, it lacked rhythm, and his feet (like they always do) got messy. Perhaps that question about competing against contestants who can break all the rules and not get penalized for it should be posed to the contestants competing against Meryl and Charlie. I mean, Charlie was flat-footed and small in his movements and messed up big time (the throwing and catching the umbrella was a big part of his dance, so is he messes that up he should be appropriately penalized--it's not like he had much real jazz in there) and received 9s and a 10, and Meryl completely flouted the rules and did a Lindy-hop for a significant portion of her samba and made a mess of the actual samba steps she did do and got 9s.
SpunSIlver
"And I am getting a bit tired of Amy's high scores. That was not much of a waltz, IMO (although she looked beautiful and the "package" was heartbreaking). She deserves a special courage and inspiration award, but not to be hailed as a fabulous dancer."
And Meryl and Charlie do? Why are their physical challenges in their dancing being ignored (lack of coordination and control, for example). And for the record I actually do think Amy deserves to be hailed as a fabulous dancer--she doesn't need to be patronized with comments about "a special courage and inspiration award". Fuck you, SpunSilver. Seriously, FUCK.YOU.
skatefan
"Carrie Ann managed to completely contradict her statement in the first week that she would judge the dancing for Amy, not her story. Guesstimates not happening. I think the ballroom will all be difficult with her disability."
Um, why don't we wait until we actually see her dance more ballroom rhythms before deciding that her disability will be so limiting. She is clearly very astute at finding alternate ways to achieve the correct style of dance.
Cyn:
"Right there with ya - the double-standard as well as CAI's hypocrisy (by stating at the start of the season that she was going to judge Amy just as should would any contestant and then doing a 180 and giving her a total pass on things) is beyond .
Still fuming over Meryl and NeNe receiving the same score. In no way are those two remotely close in talent, ability, and performance. Also, no way should Candace's performance have been scored one point less than Meryl (with three judges giving her an identical score). Total bollocks."
Again, these fans might want to take a closer look at who is getting a pass on things. Meryl and Charlie are getting a pass on major things like not doing much actual dancing and not dancing the proper genre of dance.
and they might want to point me to all the content in Meryl's dances as well, starting with the foxtrot that received three 10s. Talk about empty.
DeleteSuddenly they're interested in Charlie and care about his score when he can be used to complain about a woman who is scored higher than Meryl, whom they suspect may be more popular than Meryl, and who is dancing with Derek. Meryl is the fully able-bodied Olympic athlete in her prime, a woman who supposedly won an Olympic gold for ice dancing, but Meryl needs one partner to compensate (Val) for some elementary mechanics Meryl is unable to execute, and another to give her old lady programs that aren't even the assigned dance. Amy has no feet. What's Meryl's excuse?
DeleteOnly in their dreams would Meryl be able to manage her body as Amy manages hers, to have Amy's musicality, to have her ability to isolate her hips and execute hip action while still engaging every bit of her body down to her fingertips in the dance as a whole, to connect to and cue off her partner's movements. She's working off prosthetics. She can't work "through" her foot to achieve, for instance, the rise and fall of a waltz. If the producers want to bring her on, knowing she has no feet, and then penalize her for something that can only be done WITH feet, then they'd be assholes. Arguably, some of the senior citizens they've brought on are equally handicapped, but in the past some have gone a long way on the show - George Hamilton and Cloris Leachman for two. People who bitch about content don't recognize that what Amy DOES do, she does about as well as any celebrity has ever done it on DWTs, and that's a big reason she's scored a highly as she's scored. She's an incredibly talented dancer and performer.
It's very like many DW fans to direct their attention away from their supposed favorites towards someone else, since their favorites don't stand up to scrutiny. Where were their complaints when Charlie's rumba-lite got lowballed and Meryl's foxtrot-not got tens? They had no problem with it, a I recall.
oc
Yeah, as inconsistent as the judges actually are, I don't think Carrie Ann was inconsistent in Amy's case. When she said in Week 1 that she was going to score Amy like the other contestants, I take that to mean in the *quality* of what she's doing. To say "there's a lot of true waltzing you couldn't do, but I appreciate the fact that you put in something else difficult (a lift) as compensation" is a different scenario then going easy on Amy. The quality of what she did was still great, and I do think she was penalized for lack of waltz content a bit, as she should have been, or else she'd have gotten showered with 10s like many others. But the lift mitigated some of the lack of content, and to deduct her for the lift would have been ridiculous in this scenario IMO.
DeleteAnd yeah, what else can D/W fans but tear down others? There's nothing *there* with D/W to build a case on.
"Meryl completely flouted the rules and did a Lindy-hop for a significant portion of her samba and made a mess of the actual samba steps she did do and got 9s. "
DeleteIf Maks had packed the rest of the dance with real samba content, I would haven't a problem with the Lindy Hop bit, because it's straight from the movie. But considering how little correctly-executed samba there was here, it looks like the time killer it is.
OT, but so much is being dumped on the Shibs and how they should leave Marina. The problem isn't Marina, their (brilliant) skating,or their programs, it was screwiness by the judges. And again, it's not about the programs, its about the skatng, and the DW ubers can never get into specifics about skating.
ReplyDeleteThis comment cracks me up:
"The MJ program made me think of a kindergarten costume party. They smiled and they looked cute and it just totally missed the mark. If you want to do MJ properly, you need to show a lot of energy and a lot of sex, so it was never a good idea for them in the first place. Furthermore, Zoueva botched it even more by originally using the Ben Sharf piece for the slow section which didn't fit the MJ music and made it look like two different programs."
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?92069-Marina-amp-Massimo&p=4241621&viewfull=1#post4241621
Does anyone else watch the top 4 from US Nationals and wonder how DW even made it to Sochi, much less the top of the podium? The Shibs, Injured Hubbell/Donahue, and CB were all better.
ReplyDeleteAlridge/Eaton and Hawyek/Baker are also better than D/W. Lots of good dance teams coming from the US in the next quad. But the USFSA won't aggressively politik for them like they had to for D/W, because all these teams can actually skate and dance. And besides, all the USFSA will care about the next quad is putting Gracie Gold on the top of the podium in 2018.
DeleteAll of DW's skills are so awful. I've been seriously questioning whether some other mafia-type entity put pressure on the USFSA (and thereby the ISU) years ago, when DW were still in their early teens.
DeleteIt just doesn't make sense to choose this team that cannot perform correctly to elite standards. The way all the skating media and commentators sound obligated to say DW are the best. The unprecedented bullying by Admins at FSU to protect DW. The way all media, like DWTS - non skating media - follow the same script, regardless of reality.
There is something or someone pulling strings for DW (specifically Meryl) and it's looking like this is much more than about getting a gold medal for the USA.
"all the USFSA will care about the next quad is putting Gracie Gold on the top of the podium in 2018." does that mean they are willing to dump d/w if d/w ever try to attempt to win a 2nd gold?
DeleteI firmly believe they will not try to come back. Why would they? Do you see anything in them that suggests they enjoy the process, enjoy skating, or enjoy each other? They wanted a gold medal. They got it. There is nothing left for them. They're intelligent enough to quit while they're ahead. They are the "first" from the US and in the US that's just as good as winning multiple gold medals for their marketing.
DeleteIf they were to stay in, I imagine their trajectory might be similar to VM's this quad, but not quite as good. As Olympic champions, they'll have that halo effect for a while, but if the USFSA's political motivation is elsewhere (as SC's was with Chan), they'll start losing. And in DW's case they could start losing to a whole lot more than one other team, since they don't have good skating to hold them up. I've talked about this before in the comments, but it would so very very easy to use the same narrative against them: that someone else improved so very much and has suddenly passed them. Since their rise was based on nothing, taking them down would be very easy.
Also note, in Bobrova Soloviev's latest interview, which is posted at FSU, they mentioned that in addition to the new lift and SD rules, an ISU communication is due about changes to steps and twizzles. If we see the dance hop removed as a feature for level 4 twizzles, we'll know DW are out for good.
If the dance hop is removed, I'll have such mixed feelings. Most of all I guess I'll think fuck you. It will then be so obvious they kept it in so DW could execute L4 twizzle and win, no other reason.
Deleteoc
"There is something or someone pulling strings for DW (specifically Meryl) and it's looking like this is much more than about getting a gold medal for the USA."
DeleteIt certainly does, but I suppose it could be about one person wanting it - gold for DW, specifically - one official, one faction - and making it worth everybody else's while. Based on what is on the ice - that DW absolutely did not do it, that mistakes were disregarded while VM were continually fucked with even prior to the second quad, how during the run up to Vancouver they were jerked around while DW were getting monster scores, we all know their win was arranged off the ice.
I'm sure everybody knew VM were getting gold in Vancouver, and would earn it, but the table was being set, the precedents were being set for DW's gold and for setting tripwires for VM prior to Vancouver.
Because DW so manifestly did not do it with the skating, as every single fan who has troubled to cross-check can see, something or somebody had to collude to achieve their win. Does the blog know the specifics, when it started? No. Does the blog know for damn sure David Dore had to be a big player in what happened? Absolutely. If he objected, it wouldn't have happened, and who but Dore could have set it in motion? Even if the idea didn't originate with him, only he could make it happen. Then there's Benoit Lavoie, who skedaddled prior to Sochi straight into the arms of the ISU. What sort of back scratching happened between him and Dore? Lavoie oversaw three straight years prior when Skate Canada enabled the DW narrative left and right, and had no push back against icenetwork's propaganda. Hell, look at Barb MacDonald's ability to use icenetwork to drop some sham spam. What about Rettstatt? Why did Igor Shpilband bring him up specifically when he'd only been mentioned on fan boards like fsu and here?
It doesn't have to be everybody WANTING DW to get gold to get everybody under the tent colluding to get DW gold. It could be somebody in a position of power inside the sport, who has the means to make it worth the while of other people in power. It's horse trading, plain and simple.
oc
What did Igor say about Rettstatt ?
Deletea bunch of lies thats what
DeleteHe said he was an honest judge, but as a friend of mine pointed out, when the judging is anonymous, HOW WOULD HE KNOW?
Delete2:45 - really? i hope you're right about the level 4 hop. finally now we can start singing "ding dong the witch is dead". i wish v/m would stay even if its for half a season.
ReplyDeleteis it just me or are these out of sync? http://i.imgur.com/j8dgGUN.gif like charlie is spinning faster than meryl in the 2nd set. i cant tell...im not that well-verse in the technical aspects of FS.
ReplyDeleteGenerally I agree with everything you say, and I'm very much not a fan of Meryl Davis, but I do bump on your criticism of that first photo. There's something very beautiful and contemporary about her posture. It's probably the best I've ever seen her look by a HUGE margin.
ReplyDeletethe photo makes it look like she has no hands
DeleteI would agree it's one of her better photos, if only because she's so atrociously awkward in most, but it was used as proof by her fans that she's an incredible ballerina, so I get why OC felt it was necessary to harshly critique it, because Meryl is nothing of the kind.
DeleteI'm not criticizing the photo aesthetically. Although, there is plenty wrong with it aesthetically, if we're going to look at what the fans who've admired the photo like about it.
DeleteBut to cite the photo as an example of the balletic lines Meryl hits? It's absolutely opposite.
Well, yeah, if that's her best, then she's a disaster. No argument there.
Delete-9:03
Just a suggestion: Charlie might have went into 3 turn mode again so to compensate he might be whipping around a little faster.
ReplyDeleteWell well well, it looks like Cassandra is starting to cash in on her exposure:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/pages/Cassandra-Hilborn-feminine-perfection/857384854287069
That looks like a spoof page, but the photoshoot it features seems to be her doing just that.
DeleteO/T but Shizuka Arakawa is 3 months pregnant and has announced she won't be doing the SOI shows in Osaka and Nagoya - she's not as hard core as our Tess obviously ;-)
ReplyDeleteTess is just going to pretend that no one notices how different she looks. Worked the last time! Plus pay no mind to how carefully Scott handles her.
DeleteOr how much he struggles with lifts he had no problem with before....
Deleteso much garbage in this thread http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?88644-Best-ice-dance-team-in-history&p=4244225#post4244225
ReplyDeletei feel schadenfreude for all those hags who got their panties in a twist at the thought of V/M overtaking T/D LOLOLOLOL
Hah, I know.
DeleteFSU is full of garbage lately. In another thread, someone said DW couldn't possibly have stagnated these past two seasons - they got their highest scores ever!
Oh, and let's not forget how wonderful it would be if VM don't compete anymore because VM should be happy to step aside so WP can win, and to make sure GP and PI both go to Worlds...
my favorite comment is from judgejudy who said v/m deserved to lose in the past season bc scott's a giant douche lol. like dean was a giant egotistical douchebag as well does that mean he deserved to lose? does that take away from the argument of T/D being the greatest ice dance team ever? hell no.
Delete5:46 PM yep lets totally forget how v/m beat them in the SD at 4cc. if v/m had never been injured, they would've won 4cc
DeleteWe are basically supposed to forget everything good VM ever did, and pretend DW share every good quality VM have. After all they "trained together every day" ergo they must be the exact same team. Can hardly tell them apart. Except for how DW are better.
Delete4:59, What are you talking about. Scott has no struggles lifting Tessa. They both have flawless technique, plus her strong core helps to make their lifts seamless and effortless.
ReplyDeleteEven when they skated in Winter Dreams on Ice, in December 2010, when Tessa was probably close to 8 months pregnant, Scott did not struggle with the lifts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=044flu52rHY
You're mistaking the teams. DW struggle with lifts. They have poor technique. VM do not have issues in that area, even were Tessa to be pregnant.
d/w have the easiest lifts too. whats so difficult about flinging your partner around like a piece of luggage? its aesthetically unpleasing.
Delete