Many fans are excited; some are wrecks. It's a given they're going to skate better than Meryl and Charlie, because they're far better skaters than Meryl and Charlie, so these nerves aren't really about skating.
Once Virtue and Moir skate, the season is launched. Are we in for yet another season where no matter how they skate, (or, more importantly, no matter how Meryl and Charlie skate) Scott and Tessa won't be scored better than Meryl and Charlie? Will Meryl and Charlie get away with murder yet AGAIN for an entire season and in every encounter with Virtue and Moir?
Following a summer where the ISU implied Scott and Tessa "misused" the interruption rule at the 4CCs (as the only reason Virtue Moir would wish to interrupt a fd in a competition they were leading would be if they couldn't win otherwise, this is the implication left by the ISU inquiry) - fans' apprehensions are justified.
Meryl and Charlie will get 9s, 10s and +3's, and defeat VM in pcs, no matter what's going on with their blades, or whether what they do actually matches the criteria for maximum scores in the ISU's own rulebook, just as they did in 2009 (where, it was recently pointed out, Charlie bellyflopped on an element in Lake Placid. Instead of the team receiving the required -2, the team received a "0", which is the baseline GOE for a successfully executed element. So even back then, +GOEs were their baseline). They will execute the same two-set twizzle pass and the same assisted dance spin rotationals and be declared the best in the world at both.
I've noticed something about the image that's been built for Davis and White. Meryl and Charlie are such wonderful people, their skating is never called out. Even people who privately believe Davis White are blatantly inferior to Virtue and Moir refrain from saying so publicly. That "nice' meme we're getting about Meryl and Charlie is so aggressive that, paradoxically, it's deployed as an intimidation tactic. They're so nice, that if you criticize them, you're not.
The sd pattern is the Finn Step.
This is the last time Scott and Tessa competed the Finn Step, Tessa skating like Hans Christian Anderson's Little Mermaid - legs on fire.
Here's Meryl and Charlie:
Scott and Tessa are so much better it's ridiculous.
Charlie has said that the Finn Step is good for him and Meryl because they have "quick feet."
The ISU likes to score Meryl and Charlie for imitating something rather than their execution of the thing itself (scoring what they do prior to and after an element as components of the element itself, which is how they get "character of the dance/music" twizzle points for the same set of bombastic twizzles in every single program). With that in mind,
this article:
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080730&content_id=49784&vkey=ice_news
with this quote:
"But the Finnstep is problematic. With all those toe pick steps, can you imagine in the world championships? The ice would be pitted with holes. I don't think that's practical"
Toe pick steps! Additionally, the FinnStep starts off beat/off time, which is fabulous for skaters who simply let the music accompany them instead of actually skating ON time.
 |
| DW are ice dance innovators. You can actually do it without a partner. And without doing much dancing. Or skating. |
I wanted to get these Finn Step youtubes embedded before the weekend, but later on and prior to the competition, this post is going to be built out with more about the Finn Step, as well as with some comments on Tessa and Scott's using their bridal shoot photos for a new round of fan shaming.
Holy Crap! Thanks for pulling these out of the archives. Meryl and Charlie look like they should still be on the junior circuit in 2009. In the stop section Meryl misses some of the steps and during the first twizzle section you could drive a zamboni between them despite them being in a hold. They are slow and it is really oblivious here that they barely get their edges - if you watch Meryl's ankles in particular she has a strange bend at the boot. Then later she wobbles through the twizzles with the execution reminding me of the loop figure pattern. The whole thing is just painful to watch and it is unfortunate that a whole new season of this crap is already upon us
ReplyDeleteIt's extremely sloppy and shallow, very unfinished, and you're correct - they barely get into their edges. But with Davis White, the off-ice spin counts more than what they actually put on the ice. This season we'll hear that the Finn Step requires "quick feet". As long as Meryl's skipping and toe-picking quickly onto the ice, it won't matter how her blades actually engage the ice, nor will Charlie's off-time, generic hopping matter, because the public will be told the feet need to be "quick". As long as Meryl and Charlie approximate quick feet in the sd, the ISU can score them as they wish.
DeleteThe timing is another issue. Tessa and Scott's stepping in relation to the music is articulate and precisely timed. Meryl and Charlie don't articulate their feet, they don't finish their moves, and their timing in relation to the music is only general.
It is unfortunate that an entire season of this crap is upon us, but Davis White's partisans have set it up that it is unsportsmanlike to notice the gap between their scores and their skating, while the global skating "community" has for whatever reason determined that everything about Virtue and Moir can be challenged.
After watching the video of this seasons short I am bringing back hope that they will be scored at least a bit more appropriately this coming season. That program is amazing
DeleteIt might not be anyone's favorite CD but Lord, nobody skates the Finnstep better than Tessa Virtue. Scott is fantastic as well, of course. But Tessa is the focal point of this dance/rhythm and little slips aside in the above performance, in terms of technique and expression she puts on a clinic out there. Soft knees, deep edges, wonderful extension, and great speed and flow across the ice. And all that while she was skating on recently sliced open fascia.
ReplyDeleteMeryl and Charlie's knee action doesn't come close.
"great speed and flow across the ice."
Delete^^THIS!
Even Marina feeds the reporters the crap that DW are faster. These accepted narratives out there about DW's skating have got to be exposed and countered. All the reports from people who have seen DW and VM live say VM's speed is just as good if not better tnan DW's.
Not only that, VM happen to be very fast while executing everything perfectly and with beautiful flow across the ice. DW only *look like* they're fast because everything is cheated. It's time the fictions about DW's skating got publicly torn down.
Marina has never said they're faster. She cites their power - but sort of in the sense of performance value or impression. She very seldom discusses technique when she describes either team, nor their respective skating skills, which is smart. It's the media and fans who take that as meaning they're fastER and more powerful, when that is manifestly not the case. Especially now that Virtue and Moir's power and speed has become so obvious only the delusional could pretend DW are stronger in either department in the execution of any element, as well as in run of blade across the ice.
DeleteDW paradoxically have an advantage in being not as good as Virtue and Moir because "speed and power" become core characteristics - or impressions of characteristics - their ONE thing - whereas Virtue and Moir have everything - INCLUDING speed and power that's better than DW's. But because DW work to create the impression of this one thing, if nothing else, they're touted at being stronger at it. It's ridiculous.
DW's entire career is based on logical fallacy:
DeleteThe dance spin is DW's best element, so that means they have the best spin.
Speed is DW's best attribute, so that means they have the best speed.
DW are not traditionally artistic. If they're not "artistic," they must be "athletic." If DW are the athletic ones, that means VM are not athletic, or at least not as athletic as DW. Since this is a sport, then athleticism must win, in the form of DW! (And so fast, too!)
That said, I did not love Marina's comments. She cited Tessa and Scott's dance ability, the way they play off each other, and the way they use their bodies. She said DW's dance, in contrast, was quick, designed to show flow and speed. She emphasized that the dances were like night and day.
I can already see the narrative that VM's SD will be too slow compared to those light, quick feet of DW; that the jazz approach was wrong just as de-emphasizing polka was wrong. I don't necessarily think Marina planned to diss VM, but she's just trying to play to DW's meager strengths (their strengths relative to the rest of their mediocre skating, not their strengths relative to VM). It would be a disservice to DW to say "but VM's flow and speed is just as excellent, if not better, plus they have all this other stuff," even though it is the truth.
Ingo recently threw some major shade at VT's new programs/components on behalf of SS. I wish VM had a coach that could do that for them. They could use all the help they can get in the political realm.
Designed to show flow and speed of course means to cheat both. DW have never showed "flow", so I'm interested to see what visual tricks Marina deploys to create the illusion, or is it just going to the same old trick of tricked out, cheated quantity over actual quality skating?
DeleteThe sport can get away with a hustle like DW's scores because there's no jumps in ice dance. Most ice dance fans, going by what's posted, value the actual skating least of all because they haven't taken the time to educate themselves well enough to acquire informed observation. Look how many people never really scrutinized DW's actual skating.
To many of them, ice dance is actually show skating. Not a sport. To them, it should be scored on the applause meter. Apparent effort and struggle is more interesting and should be rewarded more highly than technique so perfect the program is effortless. Deficiencies become style. A superior team's superiority becomes just a style point, so if they have an error that, in another team, has been adopted as "our style", that error should be penalized, while a similar move, masquerading as "style" in another team, should be rewarded. It's a scandal.
As some of these forums are actually monitored by people inside the sport, one wonders if inside the sport there is the same ignorance, or if these places are just monitored to see how much the sport can get away with.
I find it ironic that on at least one message board - fsuniverse.net, my impression is that the fans of pairs skating adore teams with deep knees and powerful flow across the ice, skaters with dancers' backs, partners with wonderful unison and finish, and don't care nearly as much about the execution of the big tricks, although those are, all else being equal, the bread and butter of that discipline.
But in ice dance, the essence of ice dance - the blade's engagement with the ice and all of the advanced technique that flows from that - is disparaged in favor of style preferences that favor inferior figure skaters. It's ironic how little so many figure skating fans value the actual skating, and especially ironic how prevalent this is in ice dance, in which the discipline is nothing but skating skills.
oc
OC, what do you think of the music choices for V/M?
ReplyDeleteI don't know. I've been listening to the lp music and read the remarks by Marina, the combination makes it easy to predict something that thematically and tonally, is similar to the G&G long program in 1994 (pairs), which was also about a mature relationship and the seasons of a relationship. I just don't want it to look or feel like a summing up or a valedictory. I loved the attack and timing of Carmen, and while I know they're meant to go back to I guess a more overtly lyrical and romantic program this year, I'd love to see the momentum that Carmen used incorporated into the Olympic fd as well.
DeleteThe sd music should be wonderful.
Of course after the article on V/M's music, icenetwork had to follow up with this: http://www.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130729&content_id=55152602&vkey=ice_news
ReplyDeleteThey use they're own special rankings, of course, which differ from the official ISU rankings here: http://www.isuresults.com/ws/ws/wsdance.htm
From the article announcing V/M's music, I personally loved the comment that D/W wouldn't be announcing until after Champs Camp. I suppose that's the way you have to roll when you've had to change one of your programs at the last minute for each of the last 3 seasons.
their not they're. Apologies for the grammar fail.
DeleteThat was obnoxious. DW are going for gold. VM are widely considered to be eligible for gold or silver. It's not enough that DW have been gifted vis a vis VM their entire senior career. It's now an entitlement. VM actually revealed their music and generalities about their programs prior to DW's Champs Camp, so hours after reporting the same icenetwork finds it necessary to report their own rigged rankings with DW number one. Of course there's no chance at all DW will only get silver in Sochi.
DeleteThat's pathetic !! ... -_- VM should put update their website and post everything there... no more icenetwork...
Delete"VM should put update their website and post everything there... no more icenetwork..."
DeleteYeah, you'd think that would be the most logical thing to do. It's puzzling that VM choose not to keep an updated functional website. Maybe it's because it forces them to be professional and focus on the skating and they're not really interested in doing that.
There's no place for shamming on an official website. Scott would prefer any updates about himself to be about a pretend narrative (or rather, a hoax) on the fake GF's social media public page, where she passes herself off as someone important to Scott...I don't even want to say her name. She's a nobody and should not be getting any free personal publicity via Scott Moir.
The only name publicly linked with Scott Moir should be Tessa Virtue.
If they kept an updated official website people might actually go there for news about VM (gasp!) and bypass all the lies on facebook or twitter.
"I don't even want to say her name. She's a nobody and should not be getting any free personal publicity via Scott Moir."
DeleteHear, hear!
Whatever her motives, and whatever she thinks she's getting out of it, she didn't just happen to find a couple of high profile skaters, glom on and bask in the reflected spotlight. It was vice versa. They're using her.
DeleteThey're also using US, as scapegoat for the grasping intrusiveness of their families and communities. I believe the families and communities DO excuse themselves, and hold us in contempt, because most of what they do and say on line, and the way they've treated the public, implies this. But, I believe Scott and Tessa know better, but don't want to deal with it in the middle of their career. It seems to me they enable this treatment of fans as a way to manage the behavior of their connections and also as a means of channeling issues they have with other areas of their lives and skating that have nothing to do with us. I think the sham has evolved to become nothing more than this. Whatever flawed premise justified it at the beginning, that premise proved nothing but nonsense a long time ago, and the people behind it have been exposed as clowns. But it continues because we're something Scott and Tessa can dump on to suit other agendas.
The Icenetwork obnoxiousness continues. There's now a stupid poll on their front page asking which ice dance team has the most to prove. The choices? The Shibs, P/B, W/P, and V/M...
DeleteThe mind boggles. On what f-ing planet do V/M have a thing to prove? JFC.
And while we're on the subject of obnoxiousness, why is it relevant to include in D/W's icenetwork bio that Charlie's parents own an oil company? It really makes one think...
What happened to the "Picture of the Month"? There hasn't been one posted since November 2012.
DeleteWhat happened to the website in general? It's updated so sporadically, it's almost like it's an afterthought.
DeleteExactly. VM have nothing to prove. The sport has something to prove, not VM. The ISU has something to prove. The poll is just an excuse to include VM in a list of skaters who are much lower-ranked. It's an offense to the intelligence that VM would need to prove anything after Carmen.
DeleteIcenetwork has adopted the vocabulary of command whenever it writes about DW. They "roll in". They hold "dominion". They "smite" their rivals.
They do everything but skate better than Virtue and Moir, which is not something icenetwork likes to examine in too much detail.
The original scoop about VM's music included captions referring to them as "Olympic champions" and another observing that they want to repeat as gold medalists.
So of course this is the time when icenetwork must immediately headline its own conclusion that Davis White are the number one ice dance team in the world, a significant recognition that icenetwork awards Davis and White whether they've managed to win the world championship or not. They were number one per icenetwork's calculations last season as well. Something still felt unfinished with the DOMINION!!!!!! headline so they tossed in a poll that diminished Virtue and Moir.
I cannot WAIT for Davis and White's programs. I can't wait.
Seriously OC -icenetwork has gotten ridiculous. Who knows perhaps at this point - even Igor Shpilband must be thinking - WTF...it borders on arrogance...and you really have to wonder what other US figure skaters really think of D/W and how they are being coddled...In a way, I do wish that Evan Lysacek makes the US Olympic team in order to deflect attention away from D/W...and perhaps that would be a great comeback story and perhaps Tanith can do a special interview with Mr. Evan...just kidding of course but really - in 3 years time - who is going to youtube D/W's routines for inspiration or technique..birds chirping..yup..
DeleteWell, Carolina Kostner will be skating to "Scheherazade" for her long...I'm guessing D/W will be changing their freedance after Champ Camp.
DeleteTo be honest anon at 11:52 am - I would be very surprised if the USFSA hasn't gone in already to check out D/W's programs. I think Champ Camp for D/W is probably a facade and they have probably changed their FD music...well just have to wait and see...hell they might as well just bring back the Samson and Delilah FD...between the Shibs doing a MJ FD, Takahashi doing the Beatles, maybe D/W can do an Aretha Franklin FD...represent DETROIT...haha..respect...
DeleteThis is where it's too bad VM have so many secrets because it would be awesome if they could help a "rink insider" leak the real story behind DW and changing their programs every year. An insider who tells about how they try to come up with new moves and fail utterly so Marina reverts to the old elements and doesn't even try anymore. An explanation of the program that was apparently WORSE than Notre Dame. Insight as how MC really feel skating alongside Tessa and Scott.
DeleteThe bluetooth thing has to be the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard. The DW fans say it's so they can hear the music... ok, but if the skaters are the only ones who can hear the music, then how will anyone know if they're skating to the music.... oh right, it's DW, so it doesn't really matter. Even if Marina has a bluetooth set too, it probably has a lag of a few seconds, so maybe that will make DW's timing look right to her!
I'm just curious on what everyone's take on the hint that this season might not be the end for VM is. If they continue, will their bullshit and baiting continue as well? Seems a very exhausting way to live your life. What about more children? Do they intend for their little one to be an only child or much older than her siblings? They got lucky before and Tessa's pregnancy was relatively easy to hide but I doubt the same will happen for them again.
ReplyDeleteIf by "relatively easy to hide" you mean involving an entire community to lie for you, lol! It's probably not exhausting for them anymore. It's a way of life.
DeleteI meant more Tessa's actual pregnancy being easy to hide. If she has another baby, I doubt this one will cooperate and tuck itself neatly out of view.
DeleteI wonder if there's a fake wedding for Scott and the girlfriend being planned. That seems to be the next logical step here.
Well, last I read Heather's twitter it seems she's decided that Scott and Cassandra are the ones who are secretly married. She's got a great lowest-common-denominator feel for this stuff.
DeleteI don't even want to picture Scott and Tessa continuing to hide in years to come while continuing to compete, not because of the logistics of concealing a second pregnancy, but because the kid they've got will be old enough to read.
Lol well., congrats to Scott in that case! Perhaps they aren't intending to teach their kid to read and if she does pick it up somewhere, she'll never go on the internet!
DeleteI just love how D/W's fan just base their opinion on BS; refer to the comments in the following article:
ReplyDeletehttp://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130805&content_id=55949358&vkey=ice_news
"The past few seasons V/M have seemed off to me. I would rather see Meryl and Charlie win in Sochi."
Ya, because Olympic titles are awarded on the basis of what actually happens on the fucking ice at the actual competition. No, that would actually make it a fucking sport.
When I look back on last season, I think the most dangerous thing done all year was the 77 points the judges gave DW after the short at Worlds. That was not about skating. That was about shutting down Scott and Tessa. If the judges do that again at any point when DW skate early we'll know it's all over - but of course they could keep that card hidden until Sochi.
ReplyDelete*I* can't help thinking that that 77 points is all about VM stopping in the middle of their 4CC's long program. There is nothing, IMO, in the contemporary figure skating era that highlights dysfunction more than the irrational response to that event.
What the fuck was that? Was it displaced resentment that they got away with hiding the baby, that they got away with withdrawing in 2011, so punish them now?
The response felt so orchestrated, as if people were waiting on the sidelines, chomping at the bit for an opening, and this was it.
They won the short dance at the 4CCs. I can't help suspecting that DW's 77 points at Worlds was punishment for VM interrupting their program at the 4CCs after winning the short dance there. It, like so much about DW, was about VM and NOT about DW themselves or their performance. But I want to know why the interruption the 4CCs set off such bitterness among some figure skaters, such sour grapes, and I want to know why the ISU released such a blatantly political document (the letter of inquiry). We're talking about the best ice dancers in the world, not upstarts who schemed how to steal a title. And in 2011 they weren't trying to steal a title either - they were there to get feedback on the short dance before worlds.
What are they being punished for? It has nothing to do with anything going on on the ice.
For sure, it's been years since Scott Moir has reiterated how CoP has made ice dance a real sport that makes ice dance accountable and reflects what's on the ice. He hasn't said that in a long time.
OC - I have to agree with you that SD score for D/W at Worlds was over the top. I really think that the Sochi games will be a huge test for figure skating and the judging. First of all - if there is any population that knows anything about figure skating, ballet, ball-room dancing, gymnastics its the Russians. The future of figure skating is in Asia. It's an Olympic year and oh - Michelle Kwan is coming back working for Fox, Sandra Bezic is plugging her Battle of the Blades bs, Katarina Witt has a special on ESPN, hell the US media is revisiting the Kerrigan sideshow....when you cannot market your current skaters and you continuously bring back the oldies - it's a sign - the US market in particular is on life-support.
DeleteSo yes - a good portion of the general population will not care who wins in Sochi in figure skating - but if the judging credibility takes a hit - well it wouldn't shock me if figure skating would be dropped as am Olymoic sport after 2018...
Awww, what money can buy??? Charlie's family owns and manages an oil company. Who says money can't buy off the judges?
ReplyDeleteI wish Canadian media would stop mentioning D/W. I know they do to get ratings about the big rivalry. American media doesn't mention V/M other than to put them down. I'm so sick of the pandering. The only reason D/W keep winning is to keep the "Rivalry" going to get or just keep interest in the sport..IMO.
ReplyDeleteIf it's done for ratings and ticket sales, why isn't it working?
DeleteI think it's just an unproven assumption and something easy to do, and that's it. It keeps the same people talking on the internet, and that's as far as it goes. It's more fuel for fan politics, too.
I believe none of DW's programs have had the appeal of their Olympic programs. As bad a piece of ice dancing as Die Fleudermaus actually was, the music and concept had a show dance appeal until Meryl and Charlie's performance flattened out with each successive competition.
Virtue and Moir's Carmen had tremendous mass appeal. The program created a visceral sort of momentum that had the audience on the edge of its seat, waiting for the cue to the final lift. The decision of the judges to underscore it all season and overscore the ludicrous Notre Dame in the interests of furthering its DOA narrative about the rivalry (and also in the interests of keeping VM in their place for reasons I bet even those in the sport who want VM in their place can't even articulate) - has fucked over ice dance's burgeoning popularity. They chose a fake rivalry over ice dance itself, and it was ice dance itself that was becoming popular after the Olympics. Now, forget it.
I agree OC - technically and artistically Carmen was wow. Here you had a chance to pull in the "So You think You Can Dance" demographic worldwide and say we recognize when athletes are pushing the sport successfully - but no the ISU decided let a program with re-cycled elements win (and which are even easier than V/M's to boot). It's almost like watching the Oscars - you know politics comes into play and then years later - your like wtf - this crap won best picture? I would love for some of these commentators down the road to describe D/W's skating in two words and for me it would be consistency and SAFE but nothing else...
DeleteAlso by overscoring D/W with Notre-Dame - what type of message does that send to other ice dancers/coaches? Corruption at its best. And to think that history will show that Davis/White were better icedancers than Belbin/ Agosto..wow..and possibly V/M...hell icenetwork would proclaim them better than Torvill/Dean..
I don't even think this is all being done specifically to beat V/M with a stick to punish them for some reason. It's all about D/W and getting them to the top.
DeleteAny time that has gotten close to D/W, coming up from behind, gets pushed back. The Shibs beat D/W in TES at 2011 Nationals in the FD. They followed up with a bronze medal at worlds. The next season, they seemed to get dumped. Now, they'll be fighting for the third spot on the Olympic team because we all know the inferior C/B (inferior to both The Shibs and H/D) will get that second spot.
Go back to 2009/2010 and take away all of the others teams and just compare D/W to B/A. B/A had their own problems sure, but just compare those two teams. B/A were stronger than D/W. They had fewer issues and the issues they had were to a lesser extent than D/W's. They got pushed out of the way for D/W.
P/B outscored D/W in TES in the SD at 2012 Worlds. If I'm remembering correctly, the difference between P/B's overall score and D/W's overall score was less than the difference between V/M's overall score and D/W's. Even before the injury issue last season, P/B were being distanced.
V/M are being beaten with this stick because they're the biggest hurdle of all when it comes to getting D/W to the top. They're a bigger hurdle than all of P/B, The Shibs, and B/A put together. It takes a far more massive effort to get them pushed out of the way since they're one of the greatest, if not the greatest, ice dance team ever.
The question isn't why are V/M being punished. They're not. They're just in the way. The question is what is so fucking special about D/W that multiple teams, including one of the greatest of all-time, are getting trounced on in their favor.
The first sentence of the second paragraph should be "Any team" not "Any time."
DeleteGood question anon at 3:13 pm. There is nothing special about D/W. If I had to guess, it's a combination of family money and ethnicity from both sides and then factor in Igor's politics - that would explain a good chunk. Unfortunately also this Olympic quad has been relatively weak and if Russia had 2 strong frontrunners then perhaps the equation would be better balanced.
DeleteI will remain optmistic about this season since you never know what will happen until the fat lady sings but if V/M are happy with their programs and are healthy - that's all I ask for.
Do you think Igor is politicking for this crap-ass team, especially now that he isn't coaching them anymore? He must have known deep down that they are all smoke and mirrors, especially compared to V/M, whom he helped coach to an Olympic title.
DeleteI don't understand what he has to gain, especially now that he has his stable of skaters at Novi. And now with P & B under his tutelage, surely he sees that they actually have skating ability and are a threat for the podium in Sochi.
Well who knows what Mr. Shpilband is thinking but you can say that he has many pieces on the chess table and not necessarily on the same team - hahaha. Would he love to win a bronze medal - yes but at who's expense - the Russians (B/S) and the motherland, the italians (C/L), the french (P/B). Long-term after Sochi - how long do Chock/Bates and his other teams stick around? The only country Shpilband has no affiliation is Canada - from what I know of. Will he politick against V/M this year? Who knows. But for some reason - I just can't see past World Champions in ice-dance just say okay let's just give it to D/W automatically and not cringe (I am thinking of Mishin, Krylova, Klimova/Ponamorenko - who have a son in ice-dance, Schoenfeld, Dean, Platov etc). Then you add the team event in Sochi and the politics might get worse.
DeleteI would love to get Dean's take on Carmen vis-a-vis Notre Dame at worlds. Did anybody see the BBC coverage of worlds?
DeleteSo many skaters and coaches praised Carmen--Tatiana Tarosova, Krylova, heck, even Navka, who won an Olympic title with her sad interpretation of Carmen, praised how Carmen was cutting edge.
Did anybody have similar praise for Notre Dame? What will Notre Dame be remembered for?
I heard it was Robin Cousins who did the BBC coverage from Worlds and that he was very complimentary, although I haven't seen it. It's archived here but apparently not available anymore? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01rczpj
DeleteExactly, I've not heard one stitch of praise for Notre Dame EVER. It's already forgotten a few months later. I actually don't even remember any of their fans pointing out to anything good about it.
A good performance to Notre Dame de Paris: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQO-od6NcYI
Is DW's program any better than this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qze4igguqQ
What a laugh, the article where ND is announced: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121005&content_id=39497336&vkey=ice_news
I had forgotten that they said they had wanted to skate to the music for many years, just like VM and Funny Face. Snort.
Anon here at 3:35 pm. When you have a team like D/W who can't really do a tango, latin or ballet win world ice DANCE championships - you have a problem...
ReplyDeleteTheir style of ice dance is precisely the old school acrobatic adagio, generically theatrical, non-dance hodge-podge that threatened to get it kicked out of the Olympics. CoP and required elements were supposed to give ice dance its credibility as a sport. DW get credit for having the highest level of difficulty and maximum GOE on many elements - and yet their technique and execution falls apart when dissected. Their technique in elements is just another piece of theatre.
DeleteThey are the team that's winning, that gets points for doing the opposite of what they're doing. They're a throw-back to pre-CoP, minus the flexed knees and powerful run of blade that distinguished the best teams in the 6.0 era. I remember in Vancouver, both Virtue Moir and Davis White were held up as dancers with programs that were clearly dance, versus the gawdy Vegas theatricality Linichuk's teams were still performing. That was the old days. DW and VM were the new wave. Since then DW have become almost nothing but tricks and theatre, but without the underpinning of sustained basic skating skills. Everything in their choreography is intended protect them from sustaining, transitioning, or completing their moves. The elements themselves are crutches. All their programs are are elements stitched together by junk, and the elements themselves are far more primitive than the scores reflect, bracketed by a lot of theatrical fakery and visual tricks.
oc
P.S. if they weren't North American they would be called out as brutally as Domnina and Shabalin were called out in 2010, especially the travesty of Notre Dame versus Carmen.
Deleteoc
I just love how the idiots over on Golden Skate are whining that V/M's programs are more of the same lovey-dovey man-woman routines.
DeleteHeaven forbid a man and woman have a connection on ice, otherwise we would be left with a tango that has no fire, a sad-ass latin dance with no sizzle, and a "ballet" that looked like two kids hopping and skipping. The horror!
OC, agreed with 4:48...even back in 2010, Tracy Wilson always praised D/S's line and overall quality, even if they had the wrong vehicles that year.
DeleteAnd if you look at all the Russian teams of past that were totally forgettable: N/K, D/S, Lobacheva/Abervuch, they all had good fundamentals.
And as much as I despised Gritchuk/Platov, their speed was true speed generated from the blade, not from toe-picks.
I gave up on GoldenSkate a while ago and vowed not to go back. You know what's also interesting about V/M is that when they are in group numbers and not skating next to each other - such as in Stars on Ice or in Yuna Kim's All That Skate routines - they stand out as individuals. They just have this musicality and sophistication to their skating. Perhaps I am wrong but I don't think you can say the same about Meryl or Charlie or even a Patrick Chan at this stage in group numbers. I would venture to say that both pair teams V/T and S/S have more dance in them than D/W. So yeah - I guess connection between a man and a woman shouldn't matter in pairs either - hahaha. Who are these people?
DeleteTo 5:08
DeleteHeaven forbid a man and woman have a connection on ice, otherwise we would be left with a tango that has no fire, a sad-ass latin dance with no sizzle, and a "ballet" that looked like two kids hopping and skipping. The horror!
You totally describe DW skating lol ...
I'm sorry to be off topic, but I was wondering if anyone knows how long it usually takes for activation of registration at FSU? It's been several hours, I've never had to wait like this just to sign up at a forum.
ReplyDeletemonths. hopefully your account will be activated by the olympics.
Deletelol oh dear, thanks
DeleteHmmm not sure if joining FSU as a member is worth it. This morning went into the DW thread and holycow some of the ubers just keep drinking the koolaid. Don't get me wrong - V/M are not perfect and I think as skating fans we acknowledge that V/M have their weaknesses. But when you read a comment that D/Ws SDs are basically perfection from a D/W uber - you really have to question that or a fan saying that you'd be an idiot to basically not recycle an element/lifts that's been working for you...it's all about being defensive...and like oc stated - god forbid you say anything negative...
DeleteWhat's amazing about the DW ubers is that they actually acknowledge VM are better (one of the comments I saw was that they acknowledged that DW could never skate a Mahler-type program), but oh, they've improved sooooo much since 2010, and really, why bother learning new lifts and twizzles....shame for all the muscle memory to go to waste.
DeleteDon't waste your time with these idiots...save your energy for the PJ Kwong/Rosie di Manno types who actually have a platform.
"V/M are not perfect and I think as skating fans we acknowledge that V/M have their weaknesses."
DeleteSure, V/M's PR is weak, but what exactly is weak about their skating? V/M are a team with literally no holes--that's what makes what's going on with the scoring and placements all that worse.
The Davis/White fans' arguments for superiority all seem to center around ~improvement~ and the audience applause-o-meter.
DeleteDavis and White do the same program every year and they're just playing to their strengths. Repeating elements isn't just fine, it's encouraged and why should they have to learn new ones every year anyway? (Or ever, in the case of the twizzles.)
A skater shouldn't win gold because they've improved or because they ~deserve~ it, they win it because they earned it and they were the best. Davis and White are not the best and never will be. I don't understand how they're even in the top 10 of a sport called ice DANCE.
I would agree - where is the weakness in their skating? Their spins often start out slower at the start of the season, but then again, Scott is not swinging Tessa around him to generate power/momentum for the initial rotation, and they're not tricking out the middle of the spins with stand-still pirhouettes by Tessa to fool the eye into assuming they're achieving sustained rotational speed in the actual dance spin. They don't jump into their spins and they often exit the spin on edges, versus exiting the spin into a pose move that has them both separate and re-set on two feet.
DeleteAs the season goes on their spins acquire greater sustained speed.
Other than that they don't have weaknesses as skaters or dancers.
oc
"What's amazing about the DW ubers is that they actually acknowledge VM are better (one of the comments I saw was that they acknowledged that DW could never skate a Mahler-type program), but oh, they've improved sooooo much since 2010,"
DeleteExactly. In the "best ice dance team" and "best female ice dancer" polls at FSU, there were pages and pages explaining in great technical detail why VM were better. The few that even dared tried to post their reasoning for voting DW/Meryl ALL basically acknowledged that VM were a technically perfect team with no weaknesses, but there was "just something" about DW's connection/drama/passion/insert pointless adjective that has nothing to do with skating. And the Meryl defenses all came down to Tessa is great, but she just turns them off for some reason (too whitebread or whatever) while Meryl is "exotic."
I. don't. get. it.
The DW fans were shitting themselves when they saw how difficult and innovative Carmen was in comparison to ND. They kept posting about how they expected the tide to change and for VM to be running away with the PCS later in the season (implying it would be for nefarious reasons of course, but deep down it was because they knew DW could not even skate 30 seconds of that program).
I think even they were surprised at the hustle DW pulled off all season.
One of DW's most pedantic online proponents uses scoring, and scoring only, to back up the defense that DW "have too!!" improved over the years, and diversified and developed their program content. The reasoning: VM have obviously grown, VM are a spectacular team, and if DW weren't doing the same, they wouldn't be beating VM.
DeleteNone of them can go to the skating. Even people inside skating can't go to the skating. They can only go to the scoreboard, and they can only try to tighten the screws on VM by using politics to insinuate they are somehow undeserving. Otherwise, it's reductive reasoning: the scores justify the scores.
Their faith in the integrity of the scoring begins and ends with events DW win. They'll sure challenge scores when VM win. Some of these are the same people who questioned VM's scores after the 4CC program interruption. But the last verboten area in figure skating message boards is to question if DW's scores are JUSTIFIED. All they ever do is point to the protocols. But the protocols are the scores themselves. They justify nothing. The SKATING is where the proof resides, and they avoid examining that at all costs.
But it's okay for them to complain that Chan's scores are inflated. Virtue and Moir wah wah wah weren't demoted to third after 4CC's. Haven't VT been held up from time to time?
And so forth. Obviously, these skating fans don't refrain from challenging the judges, except when it comes to DW beating VM. In DW's case alone, the scores are pure.
Also typical is the fan who said they feel that VM have lost something. Obviously, this fan believes skating competitions are zero sum contests. If VM aren't perfect in absolute terms, DW should get the nod.
I recognize that DW are being pushed with a mind-boggling aggression, but I've never seen a push like this that takes the skating merits of the skaters being pushed out of the equation altogether. I don't think VM have lost anything - Carmen was a spectacular leap forward. However, apparently DW fans - and some commentators - have decided that any time there's a VM glitch, DW must gain, instead of earning their own points.
Not just the fans, but some of the broadcast commentary have decided that's how it is. VM, and VM's performance only, is scrutinized. Anything VM miss should equal something granted to DW. Listen to Andrea Joyce and Tanith. That's their favorite angle. If, in a program light years more complex than DW's, showing skating skills in an entirely different universe than DW, VM fall short at any point of perfection qua perfection, then all DW need to do is stay on their feet, because they've won. VM should really lower the standards of their skating, just as DW have done. Skate something they can do in their sleep, because any points they leave on the ice aren't left on the ice but instead, immediately awarded to DW no matter how DW have skated.
Since fucking when is this a zero sum sport? There's no logic behind the support for DW over VM that's based in the skating, just as there's no logic for the scoring of DW over VM that's based in the skating. The desperate effort to make the upcoming season about everything BUT skating, the desperate effort to cast VM as skaters with something to prove just like all the other also-rans have something to prove, the desperate effort to make the results ALL about VM - do VM deserve it? Were they perfect in absolute terms - is all due to DW partisons having no strong case to make for DW as superior skaters or ice dancers over VM.
"However, apparently DW fans - and some commentators - have decided that any time there's a VM glitch, DW must gain, instead of earning their own points.
Delete...If, in a program light years more complex than DW's, showing skating skills in an entirely different universe than DW, VM fall short at any point of perfection qua perfection, then all DW need to do is stay on their feet, because they've won."
So much THIS.
This plays into the narrative that "the judging is fair because it's all about how you skate on the day." The concept being that if VM have a slightly off day, then they shouldn't win. It keeps them on their toes, they cannot make mistake and win - thus, there is no "protocol reputation judging."
It's only fair if the two teams and the two programs started out equal. They're not.
It's like saying "War & Peace" with a typo isn't as good as a 3rd grader's correctly formatted essay on "what I did for my summer vacation."
And so we reach the absurd conclusion, which is now the case, that VM can win in Sochi, but only if they outlevel DW, skate absolutely foot perfect, and dazzle the crowd... then they MIGHT win. They can do it, too, but it's so unfair that DW just have to show up with the same shit as last year and skate it poorly (just not worse than their baseline poor skating, ie, "no mistakes").
"Not just the fans, but some of the broadcast commentary have decided that's how it is. VM, and VM's performance only, is scrutinized. Anything VM miss should equal something granted to DW. "
DeleteTracy Wilson too - Worlds SD she jumped on that twizzle mistake.
D/W's lifts are soo plain and boring meryl wishes she could backflip onto charlie's shoulders without fearing that charlie would drop her.
DeleteHi Anon at 8:25 am - yes I agree that V/M are by far the most complete and versatile team. Is there any blarring weakness - no. But due to the complexity and difficulty of their lifts (which leaves almost no leeway for error), if not executed perfectly - it does affect their TES. But yeah - if there was a level 6 for lifts - V/M would be the only team that would reach it..if you considered the execution of the whole lift...
ReplyDeleteIt should never effect their TES negatively vis a vis DW! DW's lifts are primitive. If VM don't execute perfectly their score should be impacted only in relation to the score they'd have earned if it had been executed perfectly. But it most certainly should never be ranked lower than the absolute shit lifts DW have been doing and getting unjust points and GOE for for years.
DeleteThese DW ubers are killing me:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?87432-Davis-amp-White-16-Magical-Wizard-Hair/page47
"IMO the notion that every move in ice dance needs to be original every year is really outdated, anyway, and the folks criticizing either team for keeping a successful move need to go back and study the not-really-new-anymore rulebook."
The issue isn't originality, it's difficulty. Scott and Tessa's difficult has increased well nigh exponentially since Vancouver. DW has not. THAT's the rap against keeping the same stuff. The same stuff isn't as hard as where ice dance is today, but the ISU rulebook has kindly decided whatever DW do is level 4. The hop into the twizzles is INSANE. In the first place, it is not a feature that adds difficulty; it's a feature that assists rotation. DW hop their asses off throughout their program because it's a crutch. So they actually get a level for something that's a crutch into the twizzles. And on top of that, half the time it's not even a clearly articulated hop. They jerk their ankle and that's good enough. This goes hand in hand with getting GOE for twizzles in the character of the dance. That's some all-purpose twizzles they've got there, because those bombastic out of alignment twizzles fit everything from ballet to waltz to tango. Unbelieveable. I don't know why VM bother.
Deleteoc
"After all, V&M have been repeating the same pair spin for years more than Meryl & Charlie have been repeating either lifts or for that matter twizzles.But is it really worthwhile to spend that much time on it, since fans whose fandom depends on denigrating their nonfavorites can always make up a reason that the unloved team is lower than whale shite on the bottom of the ocean."
Deletedoes
http://www.goldenskate.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/2012cor_FD.jpg
this
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Tessa+Virtue+ISU+World+Figure+Skating+Championships+HChTmq9Z_PGx.jpg
look
http://web.icenetwork.com/images/2008/02/14/QH2bGAKA.jpg
the
http://images.lpcdn.ca/641x427/201112/09/449033-tessa-virtue-scott-moir.jpg
same
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3493/3262032464_a87563c925_n.jpg
to
http://updatednews.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Tessa-Virtue-and-Scott-Moir-of-Canada-skate-to-victory-in-the-dance-competition-at-Skate-Canada-International-in-Mississauga.jpg
you?
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/pjkwong/virtue-moir-110430-584.jpg
These same lovely people are also struggling to understand the difference between MITF and elements. There is so much stupid in that thread.
DeleteSo, gifs of all of VM's spins now?
5:47, I think it must (look the same) to these people. They're obviously not ones for detail. Thanks for putting that together :)
Deleteyep even the change they made to the carmen spins is different.
DeleteOne of the DW ubers is now claiming that DW's twizzles get more and more difficult every year and that DW can waltz better than VM.
Delete*facepalm*
Oh geez. Did they DESCRIBE how DW's twizzles are more difficult each year? Because that explanation would be fascinating. And when did they waltz? In their long program with waltz music - Die Fleudermaus - they didn't waltz once.
Deleteoc
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?87432-Davis-amp-White-16-Magical-Wizard-Hair&p=3969663&viewfull=1#post3969663
Delete"Every year they make the twizzles more difficult. It's not just the jumps, but the holds and twists right before they enter them. No other team can manage it."
There's also the previously mentioned nonsense on DW being better at waltzing than VM, something about the dance spin, edges, etc.
die fledermaus was half-assed waltzing and full of poses. that FD literally looked like it was put together at the last minute.
DeleteDF looked like it was put together at the last minute because it was literally put together at the last minute. They had to scrap their original FD after Champs Camp that year (the second of 3 consecutive years they had to scrap a program after Champs Camp).
DeleteJust watched DF for kicks...good gawd, that program was so hideous, from start to end. The lifts are so cringy-worthy...how is this remotely attractive?
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQTzbGgwDDw
And their last lift looks like a bastardized version of the one of the lifts in V/M's Umbrellas.
And something very noticeable in this free dance: their lifts barely cover the ice, and there is so much separation in their twizzles. Thank you, overhead camera.
^it does LOL i think i need to cleanse my palette after watching that
DeleteOh God, now they are trying technical analysis? Bless their hearts.
DeleteBecause they've been called out for only using the scores to justify DW's scores, and that's a little bit circular. So now they're attempting technical analysis without first understanding anything about technique.
DeleteThere's something rather ironic about this being posted by Connor Hilborn http://instagram.com/p/cuYnWOAREA/
ReplyDeleteYou can say that again!
DeleteI suspect he posted that because he and his sister wonder why stupid people get to become famous instead of special people such as himself and his sibling.
DeleteSo I guess I stumbled upon skating's mean girls. Please tell me you're all 14 years old girls. Why do Virtue/Moir inspire such hostility and anger in you people? So pathetic.
ReplyDelete9:22
DeleteHere's an idea. Read the blog before saying dumb things that aren't true.
"Why do Virtue/Moir inspire such hostility and anger in you people? So pathetic."
DeleteI believe you are asking the wrong group of fans about this.