Weaver and Poje - Character of the Dance

Below are gifs showing the twizzles from Weaver & Poje's short and long program at worlds.

I don't believe Weaver & Poje are better, in the aggregate, than Davis White, although I believe they're more versatile as skaters as well as performers. They still lack the power and consistent depth of edge to challenge for one of the top two places.

But that actually supports the point I'm making here. Weaver & Poje are not as "strong" as Davis & White. Kaitlyn's skating skills are consistently brought up by Kurt Browning as an element she's needed to improve. They've never been held up as an example of fabulous twizzlers.

So let's say that here we have a skating team a great many people agree have not yet reached Davis & White's level. In addition, they essentially do the same twizzle set for each of their programs. And yet, they gorgeously meet the + 1 GOE requirement for executing twizzles in the character of each of these dances:

Sound of Music:

The Statue


Weaver & Poje didn't have to reinvent their twizzle pass. It's the same twizzle pass. If they were DW they could have executed their twizzles with the exact same carriage, attitude, arm styling and phrasing (let's face it, DW don't phrase - EVER) and arguably, the Sound of Music twizzles could have worked for The Statue and vice versa - both programs are soft, both are romantic, both have a sort of call and response dynamic.

But instead Weaver & Poje got more specific. Look at their heads, their arms, and the transitional moves between twizzle sets. Sound of Music can only be Sound of Music (I especially love the hands on hips for the final set - it's not only perfectly SoM but it's also a nod to the polka).

For the statue, the story is told in the heartbreaking transition between twizzle set one and two. Take out "heartbreaking" if that's too subjective and look at the style of the program and stylistic and rhythmic elements that repeat throughout the program and look at those elements echoed in that transition.

So it's not some Herculean task. Yes, modifying the style (phrasing and rhythm go a long way) and the styling (arms) is a challenge but not as great as doing entirely new twizzles.

A lesser team (Weaver & Poje) can do it. The world champions (Davis White) can't. They can't phrase, they can't change rhythm, they can't vary energy, they can't change style. If it's lyrical they do bombastic twizzles that they don't even attempt to phrase; if it's high energy they do bombastic twizzles without even attempting the lightness in Giselle, if it's a Tango they do bombastic one note twizzles without even attempting the sharp, clear, controlled tango style or rhythm. Crooked alignment, out of unison, steamrolled one-note attack is oh so tango. Tango isn't refined at all.

They aren't earning their points on the ice. And I have to ask why a world champion team is so utterly limited and requires so much choreographic protection their Fed is terrified to let them change their program elements in any way for five years running.

After this post I'm going to do lifts. Because in 2008, for the straightline, Scott grabs Tessa's leg as she steps onto his thigh, and she uses her hands on his shoulder to support her step. In 2009 she took his hand in her hand and stepped onto his thigh and got into goose position and then took his hand once more to get down onto an edge. In 2010 they developed this move - Scott's arms extended freely from his shoulders instead of resting on his knees, and she got down completely by herself - either pivoting or leaping.

Meantime through 2013 Meryl is getting herself up on Charlie's leg via a hoist from Charlie and both her hands steadying herself on his shoulders, and he gets her down, two handed, with her free hand resting on his shoulder for additional ballast. They're doing a 2008 straight line in 2013.

Oh yeah, the best in the world. I'm looking forward to more posters who "understand the sport" and "skate at a high level" to explain how this works. If you're informed enough to declare the blog doesn't know how it works, then you know how it does. Please share.

I don't think simple physics supports this

Somebody says it's like this:

I don't want to argue either teams twizzles here, but no matter if I agree or not, simple physics is actually saying that you're wrong. Not only does a hop create an extra force thus can throw you easier off-balance (think car in a turn; the faster the more likely it is to get carried out of the turn), it also creates a condratictory force to a turn in many ways. If you hop, you have to land which is actually a break in the movement; your knee needs to bend and then to push up again so you can turn and travel. And the body direction of the hop and the turn are two different ones as well - the hop goes straight, the turn, obviously, rotates. There are a lot of counter-forces at work with the hop.

Wait - we're talking about a car that is balanced and centered over one of its front wheel tires with the car's body aligned vertically above that point, correct? Man, I wish people would stop doing that - it causes accidents, even if their car has been working out and has a strong core.

This whole statement in italics is simply guessing the physics, not simple physics. The actual physics is closer to the step into a camel spin.

Later today I'll use the diagram of a camel spin and then the screen caps of a Davis/White twizzle entry.

Here's an explanation of the dynamics of a camel spin:

The skater steps forward into the center of the circle that was created by the back crossovers, reverses direction, and then pushes into the camel spin.

As the skater enters a camel spin, the skater should step onto a strong and deep curve. The skater's shoulders should be level. The skating knee should bend deeply as the skater leans forward into a spiral position.

Compare it to Weaver & Poje's (slower) twizzles. They do three, so no hop into the first set. But they get into their catch-foot position with no forward tilt and no knee bend. And btw, Tessa and Scott do the same hop into a catch foot in the middle section of one of their twizzle passes but for them that's considered the "easier" of the three twizzles according to Eurosport, with the entry and exit sets supposedly more difficult - even though their free leg is held close to their bodies immediately, their torsos aren't tilted forward, and their knees are straighter. When Meryl and Charlie lead in with that - it's amazing!! Stunning!

Of course.

What it looks like to me - and the simple physics of the camel spin and Charlie and Meryl's twizzle entry appear very similar - is Charlie and Meryl are using basic camel spin physics to get into the fast twizzle rotation. What Charlie and Meryl's entry does is assist the speed of the rotation using angular momentum.

You know what would be super impressive? If they did that and began their twizzle over a narrow axis (harder to stablize). Like, you know, Scott and Tessa do in their "easier" middle set.

This move as DW do it is a bit destablizing but their ability to twizzle despite the instability is less impressive because of their alignment. They distribute their center of gravity over a wider and balanced area - their legs are stretched behind as they reach behind to catch the foot, and their torso is tilted forward - and their knees are bent. That alignment takes much of the difficulty out of the entry. It's compensating for the "difficulty."

Another rotational move relying on a "hop" - a butterfly jump/spin - one of Charlie White's specialities:

This Butterfly Jump is not a true jump, rather a flying jump spin similar to the flying camel spin, the Butterfly Jump is not taken off from the forward outside edge skated in upright position, but usually from short spin-like steps the take-off curve forward outside being very short.

  It seems like hops and jumps into spins are very popular features of SHOW moves. Which means of course they should get Level 4 in elite international competition.

And

How to Make a Car Spin

The car analogy is only apt if the car in question is balanced on and centered over one of its front wheel tires and the body of the car is vertical. Simple physics.

Oddly:

For example, the increase in rotational speed of a spinning figure skater as the skater's arms are contracted is a consequence of conservation of angular momentum.

Meryl and Charlie are contracting their arms in the second set but they slow down. Their arms are locked behind them which may prevent them from doing a quick balance check should that twizzle go awry, but locking the arms behind them means they don't have to control their arms WHILE twizzling - as they did in the Bollywood program. Moving the arms around in front of you (off axis) in a controlled, separately choreographed pattern while sustaining a strong, tight rotation around your axis in the twizzle, remaining upright and stable is impressive. Think about which is harder - simple physics. You can twizzle - you're a very strong twizzler, good balance, good rotational speed, you're over your skates. Now, what is going to be more difficult - controlled choreographed movements of the arms in front of you while sustaining that rotation around the axis and keeping it contracted, or locking your arms behind you along the axis of your rotation?

As I said - oddly, the contraction is supposed to increase rotation but Meryl/Charlie slow down. Maybe adding arm styling would slow them down even further.

Rotation is a key feature of Meryl and Charlie's choreography, but I don't think it's as controlled as it could be. It's a bit wild. So how do you capitalize on their fast rotation and keep controlled? I think getting the message out that sloppiness and wildness means something is harder and better is one way to do that. Who reads CoP anyhow? That approach can be applied throughout the judging of the program - just assign levels of difficulty to features that ASSIST the skater in performing the move, and the sky will continue to be the limit for Meryl and Charlie's scores. As seen in another example down below.

Scott Moir used to have a little bit of an uncontrolled free leg in his forward inside twizzle. (I think it was forward inside).  His rotation was tight, speed was good, leg straight, but that leg would begin to drift a bit away from where it was crossed over his working leg. In the Olympic year I believe they addressed this by using a catch foot. He's got the best balance in ice dance, IMO, so it was better to make the leg look a bit neater.

FF and his free leg is stable when he's not in catch foot. How did that happen? He improved it. He can do things like that - you know, get better.

Meryl and Charlie's dance spin: Meryl and Charlie's "The Awesome" dance spin always begins with the back outside camel position.  Here's some words about back outside camel spins from icoachskating.com:

The back camel spin is a difficult skill to learn for a number of reasons.  First, nothing really “swings around” to help create rotational energy for the spin so the skater needs to create all of the spin energy directly from the edge on the ice.

Very interesting. I may presume, then, that if something IS swung around - say, your partner's entire body while she's in camel position  -  that will help create rotational energy for the spin, especially if the force of her swinging around is generated by your big, strong arms?

gif to follow in a new post.

I think icoachskating.com must be mistaken, as at least once this season a commentator said that Charlie and Meryl's entrance into their dance spin was impressive/hard.

The screen caps below just show alignment, not Davis White's twizzle entry sequence vis a vis hop and jump entrances to spins (which will come in a new post), but have a look at alignment:

Most difficult, perfectly executed twizzles in the world by God.
You know what increases the difficulty? Charlie's butt jutt and the pronounced
30 degree angle of his forward tilted torso, his bent knee, wide stance, and
how perfectly disparate the lines and angles of his body are with Meryl's.
Meryl: from this perspective it appears her left leg is at a 30 degree angle from her hips,
she's also pitched a bit forward, and, like Charlie, the bottom of her calf is some distance behind the hamstring. She's got a wide stance, and even from this angle it looks as if her knee is bent.

The easier twizzles (per Eurosport) done by Scott and Tessa in the middle
of their twizzle sequence in Carmen.
I wonder how come Davis & White's inside edge, catch foot twizzles
makes their two set twizzle pass just as Level 4 as Scott and
Tessa doing the same twizzles bracketed between
two more difficult twizzles.

Both screen caps are from Worlds. We can see how much more polished Meryl and Charlie become by the end of the season.

ISU's Communication 1738: Ice Dance

I had been foot dragging on deconstructing this ISU document thing because I wanted to do lift comparisons first, but something in the section on twizzles - more than  one something - jumps right out at you, so I'm pushing this to the head of the line:

First: here's the ISU's Communication 1738: Ice Dance

ice dance scoring

Here's the extract on twizzles:

This Communication isn't the alpha and omega of twizzle scoring. It represents adjustments and clarifications to the scoring, I believe, and so should be understood in context, even if at the moment I'm not providing the context because I have to review the primary document first, not just this addendum.

One thing jumps out right away - beside the fact that two twizzles should merit no more than a GOE  -1.  Wait, that was a misreading. It's saying if the execution isn't simultaneous (what does that mean exactly? Unison? In sync?) for one twizzle, it loses a GOE point. For two twizzles to not be simultanous, it can be no higher than -1.

Curious how they define simultaneous. "Roughly at the same time?" "Don't start without your partner?" and how they differentiate when one team is a bit more simultaneous than another.

But back to that one thing that jumps out:

"Set of twizzles reflect the character of the chosen dance"

Wow Meryl and Charlie. Your twizzles reflect the character of sultry rumbas, prancy, skippy, happy, effervescent classical ballets, Yankee Polkas, Bollywood pastiches, big exuberant waltzes, tragic, theatrical adagios, AND tangos.

I know when they jumped into their twizzles in 2011 I thought - now THAT is tango character! No wonder they won Worlds that year! Same with Giselle. What is more Giselle than THOSE twizzles? They have such ballet character!

These twizzles are as magical as Charlie's hair.

Fast rotation of twizzles is, I believe, the speed of rotation around the skater's axis.

Twizzles executed at great speed is, I believe, the speed with which they travel down the ice.

Unremarked is what if you swerve left and right while also traveling forward? What if there is very often more than two arm lengths between yourself and your partner?

Of course, one observes that there is wriggle room built into these rules. Such as the word "Generally". As long as you are "generally" less than two arm lengths apart, does it really matter, in a move that lasts barely seconds, that you spend "some of the time" more than two arm lengths apart? Does that really mean you shouldn't be scored better than or the same as a team that's twizzling about an arm and a half apart (and even closer) while in unison? You're still doing it pretty much!

Surely when we watch Meryl and Charlie (and Gilles & Poirier for that matter) it's easy to see they generally meet this standard. They're twizzling close enough to reach out and hold hands at any point (right? Length of two arms?). (sarcasm!)

I think Scott and Tessa crush it with "character of the dance". They fucking crush it.

I think the ISU is judging a negative with Meryl and Charlie - meaning, judging the absence of something: "Well, it's not NOT in the character of the dance."

I can see not getting penalized for their twizzles not being in the character of the dance, because as long as they are placed well, they'll work with the music.

However. To actually take on board an extra GOE because the ISU has decided that no matter what Davis White do, short dance or long, those two hop and reach, catch foot and behind the back twizzles are in the character of the dance they're doing - no matter what dance it is? Every assigned pattern dance to date, and all of their long programs?

Again - enough to boost GOE specifically for twizzling in the character of the dance. There's plenty of stuff that penalizes you if you fail to do something, and I don't see these twizzles requiring a penalty - but to reward Davis White GOE for this? Really?

Why do Scott and Tessa even bother? In figure skating, skaters are judged relative to each other. But the ISU doesn't give a shit that Scott and Tessa's twizzles superbly reflect the character of the dance? Really? There's no difference there?

About the fast rotation of twizzles - well, suppose you jump into them with your upper body pitched forward and your quadracep and skate blade angled away from your body. You reach back and grab that skate blade and pull it in, going out of synch with your partner for that instant, but then you straighten out and your magical hair is whirring like a helicopter's blades. Where's the hair score? As long as your hair is swirling, the position of your body, your unison with your partner, the stability of your traverse across the ice (relative to your main competition's) is all eh meh who cares?

What's a fast rate of speed? Compared to whose? The other skater's hair which might be gelled and therefore not whipping about as impressively as yours?

I see "exit with running edge maintained" is a + 1 with no reference as to quality and duration of running edge, so Scott and Tessa, you totally wasted your time with the Carmen twizzles.

In the primary document, I would like to see if aspects such as unison of body line and synchronization are addressed, and also if the ISU cares or not if a twizzle is executed on a bent knee, as is your partner's, but not the same degree of bending, so you're sort of out of unison body line wise even in your flaws. If it is a flaw. Perhaps the ISU says the working leg in a twizzle just needs to be "mostly" straight.

Just looking at this it seems to me that Davis White are getting +1 and +1 for rotating quickly around their individual axis and for traveling across the ice at a rate of speed, and the ISU is not really scoring them relative to Virtue and Moir's speed. We all KNOW Davis and White are fast! Why verify?

I will need to look at the document that THIS document supplements for the answer to these additional questions.
__________________________
P.S. - some skating fans will remember Sandra Loosemore's figure skating website. That page was always good for some clarification when fans got too worked up. "Character of the music" has been a thing for years, and fans run with it a little too far - further than the ISU has ever cared to travel. 

As an example, fans might declare that some fabulous Russian diva embodies the tango to where she has become tango itself, and scoff that some little white bread school girl is about as much a tango dancer as my pet poodle.

But, the ISU doesn't care about that sort of theatre shit, unless everything else is equal, which it almost never is, except if Virtue Moir and Davis White are competing against each other in an event.

The ISU was really lowest common denominating things there with "character of music". Possibly it's the same with "character of the dance". In a sport that includes I/K's "Ghost" program, and previously included Maxim Shabalin swinging Oksana around by the bungee cords, it's apparently something the ISU needs to spell out. So, it means this: If you are skating to Strauss waltzes, don't finish by killing your partner on the ice. If you've got Sade on your program cd, don't polka. That sort of thing. You know if the ISU didn't put this out people would do all that and more.

However, it's one thing to say "You must skate in the character of the music" (or dance) or risk a penalty, as in the hypotheticals above.

It's another to award a grade of execution point for doing it. This is a bonus. Davis and White are getting an extra point for twizzles that are in the character of the dance - by doing the same twizzles the same way in the same style for every single dance they perform. They are beating Virtue Moir in pcs.

So alrighty then. We can see that's legit as all get out.
_____________________________

P.S. - when a team of ice dancers such as Virtue and Moir come along and elevate what it means to twizzle "in the character of the dance", as they have, shouldn't the ISU recognize that the bar has been raised, just as they do when figure skating progresses from singles to doubles to triples to quads? When somebody started doing a quad salchow it got more points than a triple salchow. And when someone came along and did a triple salchow that was manifestly higher and covered more ice while airborne, that elevated the GOE of a triple salchow at least when the skater was competing against a less awesome salchow.

Or was the jumper wasting their time? Should Valosozhar's 3 twist REALLY get the highest GOE when you figure that other pairs do very nice, sharp split 3 twists - get on up there, the twist is tight, the catch is clean? Aren't V&T wasting their time getting WAY high in the air? Why shouldn't the pairs skaters who get pretty okay height get the same GOE? Figure skating is supposed to stagnate. I'm sure I will find that in the primary scoring manifesto somewhere.

2012-2013

Giselle twizzles. So apt. So balletic.

Lynn Rutherford is right. VM and DW are equal technically. There's no distinction at all. Simply style and who is clean.

I wonder how the judges decide? "Eh, I'm not feeling the hop catch foot arm wave behind the back deal this year. What are the Canadians doing?"

Or, "Hot damn - since I first saw DW's hop into catch foot arm wave into behind the back twizzle at my bar mitzvah, til this past spring at my retirement, they always slay me! Can I please score higher than 10?"

Virtue Moir 2013 sd. It's a travesty these two even get on the podium. When will they branch out like DW?

Esmerelda! Come hop catch-foot arm-hoist, guess-which-hand with me before we part! It won't sap your strength! It's only two twizzle sets!

Sure, but can you hop into catch foot arm hoist reverse guess which hand over the course of 5 years with variable degrees of speed, unison and stability? Can ya? Huh - huh?

Twizzles 2011 - 2012

Davis White sd 2012. Keeping it fresh.

Virtue Moir.

Motherfucker. Seriously, Davis White? Die Fleudermaus, 2012.

Funny Face. Such an abused program by ignorant fans. Only about 100 x more brilliant skating than Die Fleudermaus.

DF was brilliant sleight-of-hand. Not the same as brilliant skating.

I have to say, just putting up these gifs - forget the sameness of DW's twizzles - look at the quality difference between their increasingly pedestrian twizzling and Virtue and Moir's. The speed! The unison! How close together they are.

DW's don't come close. This is a scam, pure and simple.

Twizzles 2010 - 2011

Davis White 2010-2011 sd twizzle - waltz

Virtue Moir 2010-2011 sd twizzle - waltz

What could be more character of the tango?

Davis White free dance tango twizzle 2010-2011

Virtue Moir 2010 - 2011 fee dance Hip Hip Chin Chin/Tempatation

Twizzles 2009-2010

Bollywood - look at the arms in the second set.  You won't see them again. Also, look at the traveling.

Farrucas

Phantom of the Opera - look at the unison -or not

Mahler

More to come - don't want to load too many gifs in one post. One post per season.
I'm also going to do more lifts because that flip-Meryl onto his back-Meryl pops up over his shoulder arms extended, bring her round so she descends in the same position for five freaking years should also be looked at. I want to find where the brilliance lies that has been kicking VM's ass every other year.

And then maybe just a set for Charlie's arm flinging, along with the number of times Meryl rotates rapidly in place to enhance the impression of speed in an element (such as the spin).