tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post700669832678739090..comments2024-03-15T09:03:33.742-07:00Comments on Jessica Dube Loves Scott Moir: Ice Dance isn't just twizzles and spinsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-77552475919897002632013-03-27T12:30:07.762-07:002013-03-27T12:30:07.762-07:00Of course, makes sense. Everything with them is op...Of course, makes sense. Everything with them is opposite.oycanadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056686007756844095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-25183051997690276732013-03-26T22:55:50.478-07:002013-03-26T22:55:50.478-07:00I would say the choreo mark makes sense as a kind ...I would say the choreo mark makes sense as a kind of measure of "what the team can handle/interpret". The way it is being applied to DW is the exact opposite. They are rewarding brilliant choreography that covers for all they can't do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-85557196528339617832013-03-26T22:31:23.152-07:002013-03-26T22:31:23.152-07:00Seconded. Where are these pics hiding??Seconded. Where are these pics hiding??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-46503403255141430492013-03-26T20:25:28.586-07:002013-03-26T20:25:28.586-07:00Can you link them for the rest of us, please?Can you link them for the rest of us, please?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-26596728152954200412013-03-26T17:22:08.111-07:002013-03-26T17:22:08.111-07:00Have you seen the new pics of Scott and Cassandra?...Have you seen the new pics of Scott and Cassandra?? Mighty interesting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-15524313793115736712013-03-26T17:14:02.914-07:002013-03-26T17:14:02.914-07:00I am going to pull the latin dance, but my origina...I am going to pull the latin dance, but my original intention was to do the turns in the Tango and compare them to Valse Triste, as both are close partner style dances as opposed to a Latin party dance, but yes, it makes sense to look at what the Tango beat.<br /><br />The post I'm about to start has a link to Virtue & Moir's 'Assasination Tango' od from 07. Then it basically cuts up the gifs from Davis & White's worlds gold medal tango, leaving out the pieces that are already gifed. Transition? Wait til you see.oycanadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056686007756844095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-33511592951481330602013-03-26T17:01:36.075-07:002013-03-26T17:01:36.075-07:00I just re-watched V/M free dance @ Worlds and then...I just re-watched V/M free dance @ Worlds and then laughed at loud and clapped at how amazing and brilliant it is. I think it's the first time I watched it without feeling bitter about the result and just appreciated it for what it is. A masterpiece.<br /><br />Just sharing, LOL.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-32907458763503255922013-03-26T15:12:25.190-07:002013-03-26T15:12:25.190-07:00It would be interesting to see a sbs comparison of...It would be interesting to see a sbs comparison of the Latin dance with the tango.<br /><br />I always thought VM should have won, the gist of it being they have better skating skills and lines, and they interpreted Latin dance better than DW tango'd. I had not given a lot of thought to the composition of either program.<br /><br />In fact - even as a VM FAN - in my mind I remember DW having all these difficult transitions and tango moves (again, not done particularly well, but at least in my mind, they existed) and VM doing more shimmying and posing. You've completely shattered my illusion of the "difficult transitions" in the tango so a look at how much skating content exists in the Latin seems due. <br /><br />At the time, I would have ceded transitions and choreography to DW, with VM winning on the other components. But I bet there a lot more hidden difficulty in the Latin than most give them credit for.<br /><br />And honestly - that should be a thing. Compare any DW program with any VM program and see which one is better.<br /><br />Because - if DW came out with VM's exact Valse Triste choreo and performed it the way VM performed it in 2007 - people would be shitting themselves. The improvement would be considered epic and unbelievable. So much so that I can't picture it happening in a million years.<br /><br />I'm not so sure DW's tango is better than VM's from 2005, for that matter.<br /><br />DW's Russian folk OD from 2008 vs VM's FD from 2005? Hm. Swear to God - first time I saw VM's FD back in the day, I could not get over how adorable their twizzle variation was (a sit spin position, like Russian folk dancers). They did that even then and that was the hybrid CoP year and they were like 4!<br /><br />If VM came out next year skating anything like DW have in the last couple of years, people would be pretty much ready to take Tessa out back and shoot her. Extreme injury could be the only possible explanation for such lack of skills. People would be all over Scott for forcing her to skate in such a poor condition, having to repeat old elements, hold onto her partner with both arms, not extend her body lines or stand up straight, etc. When DW do it though, it's their style, and it's exciting.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-46739178726351055862013-03-26T14:30:46.837-07:002013-03-26T14:30:46.837-07:00I agree, it's a scandal and it's all about...I agree, it's a scandal and it's all about the ISU judging the sport and the USFSA selling the propaganda. When I talk about people that think DW are superior I talk about the ones who think that DW should have taken the gold last year with DF.<br />I think DF is a program that doesn't have skating in it, just twizzles, pirouettes, frantic arm movements, hops, all coreography. And what is worse, with re-packaged lifts and set of twizzles. But people go all blind and say "it just fits perfectly with the music!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-66896609942740758872013-03-26T14:11:28.090-07:002013-03-26T14:11:28.090-07:00It doesn't matter if people think DW are super...It doesn't matter if people think DW are superior, or love them more; it does matter that DW are scored as if they're competitive with Virtue Moir when they're nowhere near. It's a scandal. If they skated for any country but the United States this would be called out, and very easily too.oycanadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056686007756844095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-31339935527424525302013-03-26T14:04:02.321-07:002013-03-26T14:04:02.321-07:00These gifs and what happens with VM's GOE'...These gifs and what happens with VM's GOE's (and DW's GOEs) piss me off. Really. ISU is a shame, how this whole shit can be stopped?? It's ridicolous! Just because people love musics like ND or DF that can be danced also by my 2-years-old sister, it can't be that people believe Meryl and Charlie are superior! It's crazy!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-28671111573488408102013-03-26T13:13:51.797-07:002013-03-26T13:13:51.797-07:00I think because Meryl/Charlie and Virtue/Moir fini...I think because Meryl/Charlie and Virtue/Moir finished one/two at the Olympics and Meryl/Charlie are senior to the shibs, and because Meryl/Charlie are so different than Virtue/Moir.<br /><br />The Shibs have really good skating skills at blade level - Alex is a wonderful partner, and they're both musical. If you compare them to Virtue Moir it's like comparing similar things, only you can see where Virtue Moir's TES is much higher without their pcs suffering. So a real impression of a neck-and-neck competition can't be drummed up.<br /><br />Davis and White are a completely different animal - they do nothing like Virtue Moir - and actually do very little like a strong figure skating partnership or ice dancers, and in their basic skating they are very flawed - something that shows strongly when they're asked to sustain anything (they can't).<br /><br />So you can bullshit the rivalry better with Davis White, actually.oycanadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056686007756844095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-7308902745517533172013-03-26T13:09:59.348-07:002013-03-26T13:09:59.348-07:00The gifs of the program as a whole are worse.The gifs of the program as a whole are worse.oycanadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056686007756844095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-49888393191410643852013-03-26T13:05:14.280-07:002013-03-26T13:05:14.280-07:00I definitely can't wait to see the gifs of the...I definitely can't wait to see the gifs of the tango program. I've been insisting since the FD wrapped up at worlds in 2011 that V/M should have won. Save for a couple of other likeminded others, people have just patted me on the head and left it at "Well, Tessa was winded at the end and they were a bit rough compared to their usual." I'd suggest that they go look hard at the actual performances, but no one seemed to keen to do that. Of course I knew that Tessa winded and that V/M were a little rough, but V/M weren't competing against their best selves; they were competing against what D/W had put down that day. In that comparison, the not 100% V/M outdid the had-a-full-season D/W. Were V/M perfect? No. Did they do enough to pass D/W? You betcha.<br /><br />I have a feeling the gifs are going to leave me feeling more outraged than ever. I suspect for as much as I caught about D/W's tango, there are things I somehow missed.<br /><br />@10:26--My skating preference, show and otherwise, is P/B over D/W. P/B were undertrained at worlds due to Fabian's injury, but when healthy, they trump D/W pretty easily these days, IMO, when it comes to actual skating and dancing. Heck, they even beat D/W in the SD at worlds last year on TES. <br /><br />"But the larger point is the VM lifts are far more difficult and have a much higher quality of execution, and that quality of execution includes ease of movement and fluidity"<br /><br />This. One of the many things that has my blood boiling right now are the GOE's for the lifts at worlds. It shouldn't be close, yet... Of course, GOE is fairly easily manipulated. GOE is supposed to reflect the quality of a lift. It's obvious as day which team has the lifts of higher quality.<br /><br />Thank you, btw, for making all of the gifs.<br /><br />On the Shibs, I think it was 2011 Nationals where they outdid D/W on the TES. There was talk of them surpassing D/W before too long. They went to worlds and won a medal. Then, the next season, their PCS started to drop. <br /><br />I'm starting to feel like everytime a team comes close to passing D/W or it's suggested they might, something is done to put them back well behind D/W. Likewise, if there's a better team, there is a full-out effort to get them out of the way. What is so special about D/W? If it was just a top American team, why not the Shibs, or, and I know they had the injury and split, S/B (another team that seemed poised to pass D/W sooner rather than later)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-62069129018182045822013-03-26T13:01:27.615-07:002013-03-26T13:01:27.615-07:00Anon 10:26
I'm sure skating fans have all sort...Anon 10:26<br />I'm sure skating fans have all sorts of preferences for who they would like as show skaters. The problem is that the ISU ice-dance judges and most of the commentators have all decided that DW's particular brand of skating - which IMO more and more just looks like fancy show performances on skates - is *it* right now, and deserving of the highest marks. Looking at these gifs, I find it completely baffling that DW have been given the scores they have.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-91777838700648112462013-03-26T12:05:39.880-07:002013-03-26T12:05:39.880-07:00Tessa in mid air looks better than Meryl holding a...Tessa in mid air looks better than Meryl holding a supported position and the Carmen gifs will show this.<br /><br />But the larger point is the VM lifts are far more difficult and have a much higher quality of execution, and that quality of execution includes ease of movement and fluidity.oycanadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056686007756844095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-21267872182732349342013-03-26T10:26:56.826-07:002013-03-26T10:26:56.826-07:00I just wanted to add that in terms of show skating...I just wanted to add that in terms of show skating - I would prefer to P/B to D/W any day of the week...Nathalie's personality would be enough...I also kind of get a kick out of the fact that some D/W fans would love for D/W to go on Dancing with the Stars...I actually would pay money to see this - just to see how their form and musicality would be judged...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-12658226638978941202013-03-26T09:35:29.108-07:002013-03-26T09:35:29.108-07:00And note - the Shibs pcs have gone way down since ...And note - the Shibs pcs have gone way down since they about tied DW in TES at a competition a couple of years ago. PCs strike again. Yes, Alex and Maia have struggled with injury, but how has their skating quality suffered? <br /><br />Don't skate too quietly or with too much speed and power generated off the glide. Your pcs will drop like the DOW in 08.<br /><br />oycanadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056686007756844095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-9180684838351974672013-03-26T08:48:50.002-07:002013-03-26T08:48:50.002-07:00It's also a tremendous double standard because...It's also a tremendous double standard because when DW do it it's great and when another team does something similar it's easier than the other teams are doing.<br /><br />Two years ago the Shibs did a lift identical to one DW use yearly and Tracy Wilson says here's where they (the Shibs) don't have the complexity/difficulty of the top teams. It's a little simpler.<br /><br />It's the same freaking lift! Only difference is the Shibs had better unison, a more controlled exit and entrance, and they didn't gussy it up with a lot of extraneous gesture announcing to the crowd that what they'd just done was amazing.oycanadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056686007756844095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-56194373123702634162013-03-26T08:42:28.874-07:002013-03-26T08:42:28.874-07:00And of course Benoit is going to be embraced by th...And of course Benoit is going to be embraced by the International ISU after a tenure spent driving Skate Canada onto the financial rocks, hiring a brace of grasping, parasites/leaches to fill key positions, hoaxing the public with its star ice dance champions, crawling up the butt of 18th place worlds finishers while neglecting other up and coming ice dancers - a tenure that saw all of Skate Canada's international champions train in the US. He's got so much to offer.oycanadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056686007756844095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-35742803777719878742013-03-26T08:18:00.989-07:002013-03-26T08:18:00.989-07:008:01 & 8:07
Unquestionably - the commentators ...8:01 & 8:07<br />Unquestionably - the commentators are a huge part of the problem. They haven't done their job to inform about what is or not good ice-dancing. Are they really that uneducated in the specifics of icedance or how in the world did they all agree to say what DW do is "great" skating? This has been going on for years! It's not just this season.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-20244722704959252232013-03-26T08:07:18.970-07:002013-03-26T08:07:18.970-07:00The problem with DW is more than the "specifi...The problem with DW is more than the "specific details" - if you compare fine motor skills to gross motor skills, they struggle at some of the gross motor skills. It would be an improvement if all they needed was refinement. <br /><br />They have element work-arounds up the whazoo because doing the elements at the level they're supposed to be done at the level in which DW compete and win is actually difficult for them.<br /><br />Furthermore the skating media and the commentary helps this along by calling some of what DW do amazing and difficult, and when it's done by another team of skaters it's not worthy of any note. <br /><br />There's this backwards analysis where if something is done with an assist the commentary acts like the assist makes the element harder.<br /><br />For example, I think anything done off an edge is more difficult than something where the other skater is pulling or yanking their partner into it, while keeping their body a comfortable distance from their partner's. But when DW's programs are broadcast, often as not the person in the booth will say whatever it is they're doing - no matter what it is - is difficult and amazing. The only time the reality principle sets in is if they're having any obvious edge issues in the footwork or stroking.<br />oycanadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056686007756844095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-39904502006460016332013-03-26T08:01:40.574-07:002013-03-26T08:01:40.574-07:00I would amend your comments to say DW's "...I would amend your comments to say DW's "performance" communicates excitement and beauty to their fans because skating is not what they're doing a large part of the time, even though they are on figure skates. Their programs are broken down into frenzied segments with an enormous amount of non-skating based theatrical posturing and melodramatic gesturing, any actual skating is of extremely short duration and not sustained through a transition, and their "transitions" are used to help them re-set and re-stablize. Charlie in particular has a habit of flinging his arms, leaping and throwing back his head at the beginning and end of something while gritting his teeth and hanging on for dear life executing a not-so-high-level thing itself.<br /><br />oycanadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056686007756844095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-49722540557229073002013-03-26T07:49:42.982-07:002013-03-26T07:49:42.982-07:00And again, DW are beating V&M in pcs. I really...And again, DW are beating V&M in pcs. I really look forward to looking at the pc point system in CoP and what it is supposed to award, and then look at how pcs are used to hold down skaters who actually have sublime program components and boost skaters who are ragged.<br /><br />IOW, they're using pcs to pad the points of the skaters doing the exact opposite of what pcs are supposed to reward.oycanadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056686007756844095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2583966972735299482.post-28352318340171799192013-03-26T07:44:19.074-07:002013-03-26T07:44:19.074-07:00OC 7:18 -- In the last couple days I reread throu...OC 7:18 -- In the last couple days I reread through the pbp threads at FSU of the SD and FD from Worlds. It's evident DW's skating communicates excitement and beauty to many viewers. I couldn't see that anyone who loved their programs were interested in any specific details of perfect skills, it was about a whole package. The few who said they preferred VM's Carmen were specific, as far as saying for example that VM are better dancers.<br /><br />I think DW are very good at what they do and they will probably be great show skaters. The problem is the judging is *supposed* to be about the specific details and execution of skating skills. It looks like the judges allowed themselves to get swept up in whatever emotions DW communicated to them and forgot this is a judged sport, not a show.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com